The real parliamentry left alternative SF seeks free health care access for all

by Sinn Fein Watch Fri Feb 17, 2006 14:56

*Sinn Fein refuse to condemn blatant secterian attacks by Republican Paramilitaries.
*Sinn Fein accept corporate Donations.
*Sinn Fein did very little to campaign against the racist citizenship referendum, even though they are one of the richest parties in the country.
*Sinn Fein have no protestant members north or south of the border.
*Sinn Fein voted to close Omagh hospital, they also supported the Use of PPPs in the health and education system in NI.
*Sinn Fein have little or No involvement in LGBT rights, Sinn Fein never called for the liberalisation of contraceptives nor did they get involved in the pro choice movement during the 90s for fear of alienating the bonehead conservative republican vote.

by pat c Fri Feb 17, 2006 15:01

"Sinn Fein have little or No involvement in LGBT rights, Sinn Fein never called for the liberalisation of contraceptives nor did they get involved in the pro choice movement during the 90s for fear of alienating the bonehead conservative republican vote."

that part is untrue. SF members were involved in pro choice movement. SF called for liberalisation of contraceptives (you must know that). i speak from experience.

SF have openly supported LGBT rights since at least 1981 (and probably before then). there was a LGBT anti HBLOCK/ARMAGH group. i was a member of it.

by curious Fri Feb 17, 2006 15:07

You are wrong on every one of your points as far as I can see.

Unfortunately, however, SF does appear to be competing with losers like your party for the ultra liberal vote that supports deviant rights and mass immigration.

by Hmmmmm Fri Feb 17, 2006 15:14

The LGBT part is indeed untrue, Pat, but the abortion part is not. In fact you seem to acknowledge that by using a bit of verbal slight of hand "Sinn Fein members were involved...". Yeah sure, just as individual members of Fianna Fail or Fine Gael supported a woman's right to choose. As a party though Sinn Fein was not involved and is not involved as it does not have a remotely progressive policy on the issue.

by curious Fri Feb 17, 2006 15:21

about being in favour of killing unborn children? Margaret Thatcher supported abortion. Hitler supported abortion.

by pat c Fri Feb 17, 2006 15:32

the position of SF on abortion has varied from a pro choice stance to its current more restrictive stance which is at least as good as Labours. SF called for a yes vote for travel & information and a no vote on rolling back the x case. & again opposed rollong back the x case judgement in 1992.

the only party in the Dail which supports A Womans Right To Choose is the Socialist Party.

by pat c Fri Feb 17, 2006 15:34

hitller was also a vegan and was kind to animals. does that mean that vegans & the hunt sabs are fash?

by John Fri Feb 17, 2006 15:41

According to today's Irish Times, SF want to make private hospitals illegal in the Republic of Ireland. Can they promise that won't lead to hospital waiting-lists in the Republic being as long as in Northern Ireland, where there are virtually no private hospitals? SF ought to be aware of this, since their Minister, Barbara DeBruin, was in charge of the health service in Northern Ireland from 2000 to 2002. When she took office the number on the hospital waiting-list there was 48,000. When she left office the number on the hospital waiting-list there was 58,000. Its since come down to about 50,000. In the Republic of Ireland, which has 2.5 times the population of Northern Ireland, the number on the hospital waiting-list is about 20,000. Let's hope Barbara DeBruin never gets to be Minister for Health in the Republic of Ireland.

by ok Fri Feb 17, 2006 15:51

"""Once in power, Sinn Féin would lay out "a timetabled and fully resourced strategy to deliver the additional 3,000 hospital beds required", though the party has decided not to make any attempt at estimating the cost of its entire package."""

yeah right, i can remember when they also said that there would be no surrender until the republic was established and i remember when they said that weapons would never be surrendered ...only to just tell the grassroots for the last 15 years or so to "trust the leadership", says the men who now collect the queen's pound.....bobby sands must be proud of ye

i for one dont trust a thing they say anymore

by John O'Neill - ISN Personal view Fri Feb 17, 2006 15:51

If there were no private hospitals there would be no waiting lists, politicians would not tolerate having to wait! SF are correct to advocate the abolition of private health care.

by John Fri Feb 17, 2006 16:06

Sorry to put a damper on your enthusiasm, but the more one reads your proposals, the more daft they seem. For example, you state "Under the plan all new general practitioners would become salaried employees of the State, while existing GPs would become State employees over time." This is exactly what they have in Denmark. But, Denmark has the worst mortality rates in western Europe. Its overall mortality rate is almost 10 per cent higher than in Ireland. Its cancer mortality rate is almost 15 per cent higher than in Ireland. Its life expectancy is almost 2 years lower than in Ireland. Where the State has a monopoly, service goes down the drain. That's as true of health as much as its true of telephones. In 1989 the eastern-European countries had average life expectancies for men almost 10 years lower than in western Europe. For the record, since 1999 Ireland has had the largest fall in mortality rates of any country in Europe. So, back to the drawing-board for you, I think. Try to come up with something better next time.

by John Fri Feb 17, 2006 16:09

You are totally wrong, John O'Neil. There are no private hospitals in Denmark, but there is a waiting-list of 85,000, far higher than in Ireland. There are virtually no private hospitals in Northern Ireland, but there is a waiting-list of 50,000, far higher than in Ireland. Case proven, I think.

by Koe Fri Feb 17, 2006 16:26

Who is 'totally wrong'?

"There are also private hospitals and clinics in Denmark. At the private hospitals you pay for your treatment. Some private insurances subsidise treatments in private hospitals."
http://www.workindenmark.dk/Health_services/0/4/0

by Rosa Fri Feb 17, 2006 16:29

The problem with policies such as this one and others advocated by SF, is not that they are wrong but that they cannot and will not be implemented by coalition government which includes FF/FG/PD or even Labour. What will be telling at this weekends Ard Fheis is whether the grassroots membership of SF reject coalition with parties of the right or go along with the leadership and open the way for such a coalition. Although I am not an SF suppporter I genuinely hope that they take a left turn, it would be a positive development for progressive politics in Ireland.

by curious Fri Feb 17, 2006 16:33

Well the fact that Hitler supported abortion does indicate that there is nothing progressive about it. Here (other than for those who actually have to deal with the issue personnally) it is just another meaningless symbolic indicator of how liberal or left wing a person is. It is one of those boxes a leftist has to tick unless someone like SFWatch might accuse them of being a conservative bonehead.

The reason SF do not support it, is that other than one year when a small group of pro-abortionists pulled a stroke when most of the delegates were gone home, the membership has always rejected it. It would be electoral suicide apart from anything else to be seen to support abortion on demand in the areas where SF is strong.

Mind you as SF becomes increasingly under the control of neophyte liberals the chances are that they will support abortion.

by John - dunaree2000 Fri Feb 17, 2006 16:41

May I quote from Maev-Ann Wren, writing in the Irish times on 22 October 2001: "In important respects Denmark is very different to Ireland. It has a deep-seated culture of egalitarianism and support for state solutions to social needs. Although it has a private health-care sector, it is very small by Irish standards . Even the Danish Medical Association, which represents doctors, opposes the growth of private medicine. Private hospitals provide only 1 per cent of beds. There are no private beds in public hospitals. And doctors and politicians are extremely averse to allowing a two-tier system to develop." What Maev-Ann Wren forgot to mention was that Denmark also has the highest mortality rates and lowest life expectancy in western Europe. If SF are going to model the Irish health service on some foreign one, pick one that is successful.

by Joe Fri Feb 17, 2006 17:21

So when you said "You are totally wrong, John O'Neil. There are no private hospitals in Denmark" you actually meant he was right, there are private hospitals in Denmark. Or you got it wrong and rather than admit this are now trying to pretend you were actually talking percentages rather than absolutes. Either way it is an odd use of the word totally and an odder use of the word wrong!

by John Fri Feb 17, 2006 17:34

You're just being pedantic. One per cent is virtually nothing. If unemployment was one per cent, people would have no hesitation in saying there was no unemployment in that country. Why don't you answer the substantive point? Which is that Denmark has a health service almost identical to that which SF is proposing for Ireland, yet it has far higher mortality rates and far lower life expectancy than Ireland. Do you want Ireland to emulate Denmark's record in health? If so, the only people who should vote for you are undertakers. Because, if you can achieve the same mortality rates in Ireland as they have in the 99 per cent public health service in Denmark, it would mean an extra 3,000 funerals a year in Ireland.

by Joe Fri Feb 17, 2006 17:52

John I'm not that interested in your 'substantive point' - apart from anything else I'm not inclined to believe you after you described as 'totally wrong' a statement that was in fact correct. Your continued defence of this has only convinced me that 'facts' you present cannot be trusted.

by John Fri Feb 17, 2006 18:22

Well, go and check it yourself in any of a large number of sources - e.g. World Health Organisation mortality database, Eurostat online database (mortality section), Ireland CSO, Statistics Denmark. The fact that you are not interested in whether or not Denmark, whose type of health service you wish to impose on Ireland, has far higher mortality rates and lower life expectancy than Ireland tells us everything. It tells us you are a socialist ideologue who has no interest in whether or not the 'health' policies he is advocating actually worsen the health of the population. Nothing new in that. Socialist ideologues never cared whether or not the economic policies they advocated actually worsened the economy or whether or not the employment policies they advocated actually worsened unemployment. Its the same with health.

by intruiged Fri Feb 17, 2006 18:59

since you claim not to be a 'conservative bonehead', what did you mean by that reference to "deviant rights." I can only assume you consider gays and lesbians to be 'deviant' in your capacity as moral guardian of the human race.

As for Hitler supporting abortion this is a spectacularly moronic point. Mussolini was strongly opposed to it so i suppose this makes us both fascists?

Would you care to venture a serious argument as to why other peoples' wombs are any of your business?

by Bernie Fri Feb 17, 2006 20:07 Belfast

The facts of history are that Hitler made abortion totally illegal with life imprisonment as punishment for all Aryan women. Later he introduced abortion for "undesireables" - Jewish people, Communists etc but it was still illegal for German women who were not considered "undesireable".

As for Sinn Fein and health Bairbre de Brun was a disaster as Minister for Health. Not only did she introduce a measure of privitisation to health in the North, through bringing the Private Finance Initiative into hospitals, she also refused to copy Scotland and make personal care of pensioners in nursing homes free.

She also refused to issue guidelines to make it clear when abortion is or is not legal in the North and forced the Family Planning Association to take her to court. In court, she was a real coward about abortion - actually arguing that even rape victims should not have a right to a legal abortion in the North. The Family planning association won the court case.

by SFM - None Fri Feb 17, 2006 21:33

Free Health Care, Free education, Jobs for all Free Sweeties and a packet of crisps or a none of the above for a unitied Ireland. SF policies are not worth the paper they are written on till they stop harping on about a unitied Ireland that they tried to bomb a million of our fellow Irishmen into or 30 years. Yes to Free Health, Education and Jobs no to the sterile poltics of a unitied Ireland.

by ok Sat Feb 18, 2006 05:33

sinn fein is only left of london with their british crown, some freedom fighters, can i buy a cigarette with a bank note from belfast.

by Dr Dolittle Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:56

All doctor's will become state employees? What happens to those that don't wany to? Jail, Beatings or expulsion? What shite are SF proposing? The majority of state employees are incapable of wiping their own arses..let alone being responsible doctors. Just look at the current crop of fuck ups by state employees. Now SF want doctors to be part of the dont work dont - care - still get well paid brigade.

by Dr Death Sat Feb 18, 2006 15:56

Since you're obviously a hard-working individual who can afford to sneer at the lazy public sector workers, perhaps you'd like to tell us what you've ever done for society? Apart from feathering your own nest of course...

by Dr Dolittle Sat Feb 18, 2006 17:35

I am a white van driver whose only source of rest is reading the sun on the jax. However, I am honest enough to admit I may skive off now and again unlike the state employeed dossers who stand outside their offices smoking all day. State doctors..you're havin' a laugh.
I'd rather cut my own arm off!"