Shift to Left in NIPSA, SP member Billy Lynn elected President

by nipsa member Wed Jun 08, 2005 20:34

How was this result a shift to the left (which actually means socialist party not "left" ) when the previous majority of about 6000 held by sp member carmel gates has been reduced to just 300 - methinks you need peter snow's swingometer mate!

by an interested nipsa member - nipsa Wed Jun 08, 2005 20:46

... and you will see that the left has made impressive gains on the General Council, Civil Service Executive and the Public Oficers Group Executive, as well as taking the chairs of both of the executive bodies. In fact this is the first time the left has held the President and chairs of the two executives.
The excellent vote to publicly call for non-payment of water charges is also another breakthrough for the left.

The rotten right-wing bureaucrats can only prevent a discussion and vote being taken on the election of officials on the wage of the members for only so long.

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Wed Jun 08, 2005 20:53

Maybe he needs to adjust his swingometer or maybe you need to remember that more votes took place than just the one for President.

The left won a huge majority on the Public Officers Executive and increased representation on the Civil Service Executive. The left candidate won the Presidency despite the incumbent stepping down. The union voted to support a campaign of non-payment of the water charges. The union voted to call for the immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

As for the left meaning the Socialist Party, that simply isn't true. The SP plays an important role in "Time for Change", the main left body in the union, but TfC is a lot wider than just the SP. For instance it won 19 seats on the Public Officers Executive for example, only 5 of which were taken by Socialist Party activists.

by nipsa member Wed Jun 08, 2005 21:05

Are these gains as "significant" as when the sp grouping actually held the majority just a few years ago? (and then promptly lost it again). NIPSA's had a "left" president for 5 years now - so how come the "right" is apparently still calling the shots? How long will it take?

And OK the vote on the water campaign went for non payment - equally the other faves of the sp namely branch and political funds fell - as for the election of officials i've lost count how many times that's been discussed and its never been accepted by the members - I did note though that the position of the sp on who would be elected and when has also "shifted" "significantly ".

Swings and roundabouts.

by bf Wed Jun 08, 2005 21:25

do I detect a pissed off right wing hack?:)

Not to worry mate you can have another go for the president seat next year.

BTW part of the reasons for the shift to the left was, TFC and US working together more in the elections, strong personal votes for some candidates and the experiance of the defeat of the civil service dispute.

As usual the right (RC) knifed each other in the back.

by Mark P Wed Jun 08, 2005 21:32

"NIPSA's had a "left" president for 5 years now - so how come the "right" is apparently still calling the shots? How long will it take?"

Transforming NIPSA into a democratic and fighting union will be a long and difficult process. It will have to involve a reinvigoration of the union at rank and file level along with structural changes like the election of officials. Fighting the bureaucracy for control of the union's structures is an important part of the process but that doesn't mean that a left wing President can single handedly transform the union.

NIPSA has an entrenched bureaucracy, including a right wing General Secretary. That can't be changed through force of will. If you are serious about wanting to change it you should get involved in the left body "Time for Change" and do your best to strengthen it. Or of course you could just confine yourself to anonymous sniping and dismissive remarks.

by james branch 8 Thu Jun 09, 2005 01:30

mark p has a curious sense of anonymous sniping when he does'nt even give his own full name. it is also curious that he believes that members minds cant be changed by force of will ,can we assume that they will be turned by the turgid writings of Peter Hadden?
the success of the self proclaimed left can be seen in the PO Executive where members money was spent this year debating a whole seven motions democracy and debate is alive and well.
the point about the SP position on election of officials is well made . it has changed significantly possibly because an ex president has recently taken up a non elected post . with the allowance for the job she will be earning three times the wage of the lowest paid members .
I will now let you in on a secret the best place for the self proclaimed left is chairing committees and in the role of president because it means there are no ignorant bastards heckling from the floor.

by bf Thu Jun 09, 2005 02:24

my heart goes out to all the right wing, tough old conference this year wasnt it lads! ah well better luck next year you dirty scabs. all together now NIPSA SAYS DONT PAY WATER CHARGES:)

branch 8 my arse james, you are from one of those 2 member branches that the right specialise in arnt you? wouldnt know a democratic meeting if it bit you.

btw

there will still be plenty of the 'ignorant bastards heckling from the floor' next year.

by The Sp Thu Jun 09, 2005 13:15

Carmel in a non elected post at 40 plus grand a year.

by sp Thu Jun 09, 2005 15:04

..in political or trade union posts must live on the average wage, that is in joe higgins case a skilled worker or in a union officials case the average wage of union members. The sp is strict about this as it keeps away opportunists.

by Pater HaRdOn Thu Jun 09, 2005 18:29

How many papers were sold during the conference?

As we know the election was such a success because "...During the campaign around 300 copies of the special election issue of The Socialist were sold around the doors and another 1,000 or so on stalls."

by tfc Thu Jun 09, 2005 20:09

The four comments above give some idea about what we are dealing with in NIPSA.

It would be unfair to say that all the right wing stoop to such attacks indeed some of them are genuine trade unionists who we have honest and fraternal disagreement with but many are of the type above who engage in lies and union busting when it works to their advantage.

No comment that they make on this site about individuals in NIPSA can begin to compare to the damage that they have done to members over the years. If these attacks are the price we pay to be rid of such people so be it, it is well worth paying.

by Patrique - nipsa Branch 8 Fri Jun 10, 2005 00:08

As the other "oaf" involved in the discussion at Transport House during the PCS strike, may I congratulate the other "oaf" on becomming President, with my full support. Perhaps that will answer "stroppy" when he expressed the wish that no-one vote for these "oafs".

The "left" do hold a majority on CSGE but it is not just Time for Change, there are now two members from the "Uncivil Servant" group.

In the election "Uncivil Servant" supported all of the TFC candidates, and received some valued support from TFC. Let us hope that we can live together to try to move the union, and the interests of the ordinary members, forward.

We now have an opportunity to do something. It would be criminal to waste it with petty squabbles.

I realise that I am beyond the pale when it comes to elections, but I personally can live with that. The interests of the rank and file come first. Let's not disappoint them.

by stroppy Fri Jun 10, 2005 00:48

can we take it that as you are beyond the pale you will not be standing in any more elections.
i didnt express a wish that no one should vote for oafs (fighting instead of offering support to striking colleagues) I merely asked were they suitable people to vote for . if you had outed the new president as an oaf before the conference who knows what might have happpened.
but like you I congratulate him even if he does confirm that sometimes revolutionaries can be toothless tigers

by tom Fri Jun 10, 2005 14:04

I don't think a move to the socialist party is a move to the left .On the most important issue in northern Ireland - whether it should be part of Britain or Ireland - the party consistently sides with the right wing. You can't get more right -wing than British imperialism , can you?

by more - right? Fri Jun 10, 2005 15:01

.

by SP supporter Fri Jun 10, 2005 15:07

In the past those advocating a working class solution to the national question have been labelled by the political establishment as either Loyalists or Nationalists (depending on the audience) in order to split the workers' movement in NI. The fact is that the Socialist Party are the only party advocating a socialist solution to the national question. ie the SP don't want a capitalist Ireland (as nationalists and republicans do) or a capitalist Britain (as unionists and loyalists do). They stand for a socialism.

You can't get more right-wing then attacking working class politics on a sectarian basis can you?

by tom Fri Jun 10, 2005 17:59

"You can't get more right-wing then attacking working class politics on a sectarian basis can you?"
I was making a point about the position of the SP on British imperialism in Ireland . Are you saying that to be opposed to imperialism is sectarian?

by Mark P Fri Jun 10, 2005 18:14

No, but then again the Socialist Party is very clear that British imperialism is responsible for the mess that is the national question in Ireland.

What he is saying is that in the concrete circumstances of Northern Ireland those who try to portray socialists as either "unionist" or "nationalist" invariably have a sectarian agenda. Sinn Fein for instance, a right wing communal party, will try to portray socialists as not being "anti-imperialist" or as being "unionists". The DUP will try to portray socialists as being "nationalists" (or if they are being honest "dirty fenians"). The Socialist Party are neither nationalist nor unionist but socialist. We belong to neither sectarian camp but instead try to build an independent working class politics.

by Patrique - Nipsa Branch 8 Fri Jun 10, 2005 22:10

You misunderstand Stroppy. Beyond the pale for TFC votes, but there are lots of other people out there. By the way, did you enjoy conference, you looked a bit miserable.

The above debate on imperialism/Nationalism is fascinating, but not a lot to do with Nipsa elections.

Speaking of which. The man who opposed consulting members on THEIR pay claim, topped the poll in the CSGE election. Makes you wonder. Not to worry however, we were there to make sure YOUR voice will be heard.

by stroppy Sat Jun 11, 2005 01:11

was'n at Conference but heard you were your usual eloquent self. now that you have confirmed your intention to seek election again I am tempted to join the electoral fray myself . 'Stroppy for President ' has a nice ring about it. I am sure I could get at least as many TFC votes as you seem to believe you received.
It is funny who people will vote for, for example a self proclaimed champion of the low paid and fervent supporter of elected officials used to be NIPSA President. that person now holds a non elected NIPSA post and earns more than 3 times the wages of lower paid members. its a funny old world.
What is even funnier is that both the current and recently retired NIPSA Presidents were on the same committee as the poll topper you refer to and endorsed the approach taken to this years pay claim by the CS Group Executive . Oh dear no more votes from Branch 8. The minutes of the Groups deliberations on 2006 pay will make interesting reading.
But not to fear representatives from Branch 8 are now inside the Pale. I trust the extra time given to think up new challenging items for inclusion in the 2006 pay claim will be well used by these proletarians. It would be a shame to have won a glorious victory over the dastardly right wing and current/ ex Presidents to have extra time to contibute to the pay claim and then not say anything new. You may wish to help this process along by telling us what your Branch suggested during the original 'consultation' period and what ,if anything , different youse are going to propose now.

by Patrique Sat Jun 11, 2005 04:05

Hello, Stroppy. There was no original consultation, hence the emergency motion. Grasping that are you?

Not at conference. Do you write Amanda's speeches?

by amanda allaway Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:29

Sorry to disappoint you, Patrique, but nobody writes my speeches for me - believe it or not I do have a brain and can construct sentences and paragraphs all by myself - stroppy I am not - try again - and if you do find out who it is let me know.

I do however take some pride in the fact that despite being the incarnation of the right wing (allegedly), my speeches at conference were plagarised and recycled on a number of occasions by the "left" (and I note that certain comments made in jest have appeared even here on indymedia). I watch this thread with interest as I will the debates at the new civil service executive.

By the way the reason I came onto Indymedia but got diverted by this debate, was to post details of Juan Carlos Galvis (SINALTRAINAL, Campaign against Coca Cola) who visits next week - I've arranged a meeting on Wednesday (15th) at 1.30 and NIPSA have given use of a room in Harkin House - places will be limited so if anybody is interested in attending you should ring me on 02890 528891.

by Patrique Sat Jun 11, 2005 17:45

No need to apologise for being on Indymedia, Amanda. Stroppy is male, nowhere near as intelligent as your good self, and on the fringe, hence the inability to recognise Billy Lynn at Transport House.

Obviously I was not patronising you Amanda, I was patronising Stroppy, at least you have the courage and conviction to use your own name. And I might need your vote.

by stroppy Sat Jun 11, 2005 23:54

Funny enough I also was'nt at Transport House which is why I was not in a position to positively name the oafs but you have now done so. I would have course have recognised Billy from his old Branch representative days particularly as even you are more handsome than he.
It would seem you are stating categorically that Branch 8 made no comments on the pay claim to be lodged prior to conference. Happy enough to accept this although I believe a small number of Branches did provide comments. Interesting to check that out.
Could this rapport with Amanda be taken as a courting of the hated 'right wing' in some form of coalition most people would see as about as likely as an alliance between Fine Gael and the Irish Labour Party.
If I decide not to stand for President you will be getting my vote because you remind me at times of George Bush.

by Patrique Sun Jun 12, 2005 01:30

My old party were in Government with Fine Gael, the Rainbow Coalition, and it worked quite well.

I have respect for most trade unionists, whether I agree with them or not. That's why I wear the suits, the right are my only hope for votes.

by stroppy Sun Jun 12, 2005 02:18

working well is of course in the eye of the beholder but it does go to show that the psuedo left can comfortably snuggle up to the right.
you might wish to form a new group called Reform your Union which your old mate John Bruton would no doubt support given his love for reform movements. hopefully funding won't be a problem for RyU as I am sure some old friends can come up with some super dollars.

by Patrique Sun Jun 12, 2005 03:35

I agree that Bruton has been one of the better taoiseach's but that is not saying a lot. At least he was the first Southener since John Redmond to have a grasp of the North.

Pseudo Left? Where did that come from? I think you have me mixed up with someone else.

And we usually got roubles, not dollars.

by fulov hatea Sun Jun 12, 2005 20:30

sounds stupid doesn't it, considering stroppy is an armchair activist. unlike others nipsa reps that have been on this site.

stroppy is just jealous that patrique was able to get votes and does have a backing. patrique's only downfall is the SP hate him because he uses his voice how he sees fit, as long as it benefit our members.

when you become active stroppy come back and have a go.

patrique for prez 2006!!!!!!!!!!11

by stroppy Mon Jun 13, 2005 00:19

I do get out of the armchair sometimes in fact I would be almost certain that I have dealt with more members personal cases (usually successfully) than a recently retired NIPSA president who reports suggest did'nt relish this important activity on behalf of members.
I am more actively considering seeking election now that Patrique has bizarrely suggested that the detestable Bruton was a good Taoiseach next he will be inviting Mc Dowell to stand for NIPSA President.
Bad enough Patrique supported overtime during industrial action but admiration for Bruton must mean he has put himself beyond the Pale for any NIPSA member.
But not to worry if Patrique does'nt cut it in NIPSA elections his old mate Bruton should be able to sort him out with a non elected post in the Reform Movement. Patrique as spokesperson for Commonwealth affairs would certainly be interesting.

by Patrique Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:49

John Bruton wouldn't know me all that well, I was aligned to Prionsais and Pat Rabbitte et al.

Strangely enough being in Government in a Rainbow coalition obviously did not have the same benefits as a Fianna Fail gov. I couldn't even get Hurling Final tickets.

by stroppy Tue Jun 14, 2005 00:26

Very humorous Patrique. Perhaps an old friend of the two boys could have garlanded you with enough super dollars to buy tickets from a tout.
Not too sure if support for the Blueshirts is going to endear you to the two presidents indeed do Branch 8 know of your fondness for them. You could invite interesting Enda to your next Branch meeting he seems to me the type of boy that could live with overtime working during a dispute.

by Patrique Tue Jun 14, 2005 01:05

I like the Garlanded bit, very droll. But make sure he doesn't find out who you are.

Two things. Touts are the enemies of the workers, should be rounded up and made to see the error of their ways.

Secondly, you ask what we want in the pay claim? I suggested we ask management to place a complete ban on overtime. This crutch has been grasped by too many for too long on paltry wages. Without overtime the Civil Service couldn't get recruits, they would have to improve the basic wage. As someone who has never worked overtime, as a barman, Civil Servant, musician, bouncer, shelf packer, school teacher, labourer, Jobclub Manager, welfare rights officer, actor, I know this to be true. As for some people out of 998 in Branch 8 working overtime, well we are not fascists you know, blue shirts or not. Bringing hurling sticks and baseball bats to work breaks the ban on sportswear.

By the way Stroppy, are you a failed, disheartened leftie, or one of the Soldiers of Destiny?