The G8 and a Mass Belfast demo

by . Tue Apr 19, 2005 21:37

What is make poverty history?

by Davy Carlin - Street Seen Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:57

It is a campaign, primarily of NGO's' but in Belfast it sees NGO'S, ICTU, Trade Unions and Trade Union branches, campaign groups, Anti Poverty organisations etc all ranging primarily from the liberal to the far left -working together.

Our website will be up and running shortly as so persons can get a real flavour of what we are about. The site will include details of buses -our building for the Pre G8 mass rally in Belfast - and much more. D

Further wider details can be provided by our Press Officer Jon Glackin of the MPH Communications Committee {who also engages on Indymedia} as he has been in regular contact with the various other MPH Communication Committees and Press Officers in other areas. D

by Against Hype Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:37

The left, like all political groups, are banned from MPH - it's structure is very undemocratic.

by Charity watch Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:01

"The left, like all political groups, are banned from MPH - it's structure is very undemocratic."

Fronting a SWP front? They must still love you.

by Davy Carlin Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:04

I am a non part aligned Revolutionary Socialist, as is John, which is openly known on the MPH committee in Belfast.

Indeed I know that there are quite a few on the left involved {but who are also in left parties}, and who are there in the capacity of representing their MPH affiliated organisations, trade unions etc.


But if you are talking about 'left parties' being banned - you should state that all parties are indeed banned - not just the left.

The Alliance party in the North for example had wanted to join but could not. This was a decision discussed, debated and then agreed by those who had originally initiated the wider MPH campaign.

Yet if parties feel strongly enough about this then it is quite simple - they should get their activists who are involved in the MPH groups to raise this and attempt to win the argument.

For me I may not personally agree with this as would not others who are actively involved in MPH - but that will not hold us back from actively supporting the issues at the heart of the campaign and bringing it to a wider audience.

by Major Woody Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:19

From what I understand 'Make Poverty History' is not as it appears to many an SWP front but rather a coalition of NGO's who are very annoyed by the SWP using the 'Make Poverty History' name on SWP events. Personally I think the idea of asking the G8 leaders to 'Make Poverty History' is sort of missing the point and perhaps not understanding what the role of the G8 is. But from what I have heard it is not GR under a new name.

There must be lots of NGO types reading this - perhaps one of them could clarify this further?

by Anorak Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:21

FWIW

by Jon Glackin - MAKEPOVERTYHISTORYNI Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:22 jonglackin at makepovertyhistory-ni dot org 07743275533

MAKEPOVERTYHISTORY is a unique alliance of charities, trade unions, campaigning groups and celebrities who are mobilising around key opportunities in 2005 to drive forward the struggle against poverty and injustice.

Today, the gap between the world’s rich and poor is wider than ever. Global injustices such as poverty, AIDS, malnutrition, conflict and illiteracy remain rife.

Despite the promises of world leaders, at our present sluggish rate of progress the world will fail dismally to reach internationally agreed targets to halve global poverty by 2015.

World poverty is sustained not by chance or nature, but by a combination of factors: injustice in global trade; the huge burden of debt; insufficient and ineffective aid. Each of these is exacerbated by inappropriate economic policies imposed by rich countries.

But it doesn’t have to be this way. These factors are determined by human decisions.

2005 offers an exceptional series of opportunities for the UK to take a lead internationally, to start turning things around. This year, as the UK hosts the annual G8 gathering of powerful world leaders and heads up the European Union (EU), the UK Government will be a particularly influential player on the world stage.

A sea change is needed. By mobilising popular support across a unique string of events and actions, we will press our own government to compel rich countries to fulfil their obligations and promises to help eradicate poverty, and to rethink some long-held assumptions.

MAKEPOVERTYHISTORY urges the government and international decision makers to rise to the challenge of 2005. We are calling for urgent and meaningful policy change on three critical and inextricably linked areas: trade, debt and aid.

1. Trade justice

• Fight for rules that ensure governments, particularly in poor countries, can choose the best solutions to end poverty and protect the environment. These will not always be free trade policies.
• End export subsidies that damage the livelihoods of poor rural communities around the world.
• Make laws that stop big business profiting at the expense of people and the environment.

The rules of international trade are stacked in favour of the most powerful countries and their businesses. On the one hand these rules allow rich countries to pay their farmers and companies subsidies to export food – destroying the livelihoods of poor farmers. On the other, poverty eradication, human rights and environmental protection come a poor second to the goal of ‘eliminating trade barriers’.

We need trade justice not free trade. This means the EU single-handedly putting an end to its damaging agricultural export subsidies now; it means ensuring poor countries can feed their people by protecting their own farmers and staple crops; it means ensuring governments can effectively regulate water companies by keeping water out of world trade rules; and it means ensuring trade rules do not undermine core labour standards.

We need to stop the World Bank and International Monetary Fund (IMF) forcing poor countries to open their markets to trade with rich countries, which has proved so disastrous over the past 20 years; the EU must drop its demand that former European colonies open their markets and give more rights to big companies; we need to regulate companies – making them accountable for their social and environmental impact both here and abroad; and we must ensure that countries are able to regulate foreign investment in a way that best suits their own needs.

2. Drop the debt

• The unpayable debts of the world’s poorest countries should be cancelled in full, by fair and transparent means.

Despite grand statements from world leaders, the debt crisis is far from over. Rich countries have not delivered on the promise they made more than six years ago to cancel unpayable poor country debts. As a result, many countries still have to spend more on debt repayments than on meeting the needs of their people.

Rich countries and the institutions they control must act now to cancel all the unpayable debts of the poorest countries. They should not do this by depriving poor countries of new aid, but by digging into their pockets and providing new money.

The task of calculating how much debt should be cancelled must no longer be left to creditors concerned mainly with minimising their own costs. Instead, we need a fair and transparent international process to make sure that human needs take priority over debt repayments.

International institutions like the IMF and World Bank must stop asking poor countries to jump through hoops in order to qualify for debt relief. Poor countries should no longer have to privatise basic services or liberalise economies as a condition for getting the debt relief they so desperately need.

And to avoid another debt crisis hard on the heels of the first, poor countries need to be given more grants, rather than seeing their debt burden piled even higher with yet more loans.

3. More and better aid

• Donors must now deliver at least $50 billion more in aid and set a binding
timetable for spending 0.7% of national income on aid. Aid must also be made to work more effectively for poor people.

Poverty will not be eradicated without an immediate and major increase in international aid. Rich countries have promised to provide the extra money needed to meet internationally agreed poverty reduction targets. This amounts to at least $50 billion per year, according to official estimates,
and must be delivered now.

Rich countries have also promised to provide 0.7% of their national income in aid and they must now make good on their commitment by setting a binding timetable to reach this target.

However, without far-reaching changes in how aid is delivered, it won’t achieve maximum benefits. Two key areas of reform are needed.

First, aid needs to focus better on poor people’s needs. This means more aid being spent on areas such as basic healthcare and education. Aid should no longer be tied to goods and services from the donor, so ensuring that more money is spent in the poorest countries. And the World Bank and the IMF must become fully democratic in order for poor people’s concerns to be heard.

Second, aid should support poor countries and communities’ own plans and paths out of poverty. Aid should therefore no longer be conditional on recipients promising economic change like privatising or deregulating their services, cutting health and education spending, or opening up their markets: these are unfair practices that have never been proven to reduce poverty. And aid needs to be made predictable, so that poor countries can plan effectively and take control of their own budgets in the fight against poverty.

Related Links:

Irish Campaign: www.makepovertyhistory.ie

U.K : www.makepovertyhistory.org

MAKEPOVERTYHISTORYNI Website will go live very soon

by Davy Carlin Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:53

I agree with your points Major Woody

Many organisations were annoyed that the SWP themselves attempted to call meetings under the MPH banner - and so many more are now wary of them.

Indeed they had to eventually state that their meeting in Belfast was under the N.I Anti Poverty Network and not MPH as they had attempted to subtly entitle it.

Your second point of quote 'asking the G8 leaders to 'Make Poverty History' is sort of missing the point and perhaps not understanding what the role of the G8 is'.

And again although I personally would agree with that - many thousands of others would not - and would believe that the G8 leaders can make Poverty History.

Therefore there is two choices - to solely organise yourselves in campaigns with everyone of your own understanding and thought-

or to organise in campaigns with those of similar thought while working also within campaigns of those who know something is wrong and want to work to change it - but would not have your undertstanding of how to bring that about.

Therefore one can either ignore those with differing points of view - or one can attempt to engage, discuss and debate with them while in the course of a specific campaign and workings together


As for the MPH in Belfast it is not a front but a genuine collection of organisations and activists who really want to do something positive -and we work well together,

If the SWP in Belfast or any other such organisations attempted any differing form of working, from that genuine and positive way of working we are engaged in- then quite simply they would be faced down in debate.

by Against Hype Wed Apr 20, 2005 13:57

As I stated - ALL political groups are banned. It's not about winning the argument - it's undemocratic to start with.

by Davy Carlin Wed Apr 20, 2005 14:53

Well if an organisation makes a decision to be set up on the basis of not having political parties involved or affiliated {whether or not you agree with it or not} that is their right to do so {if the majority of those involved had made that decision -as was done here} - as do some political parties not allowing factions within their parties - or the Trade Union Movement, NGO's, Anarchist organisations or the churches, not allowing political affiliation or such differing groups involved in their organisation etc -. the list goes on and on.

So whether one thinks it is democratic or not - the reality is that those organisations who 'only recently' sought to get involved - primarily the SWP - {for what ever reason} after this was all agreed and the MPH campaign established - have raised this.

So, as stated, many do have 'their members' involved through representing various groups, so if they have problems with it then they should raise it as so to convince others of its merit.

I would say though that I know many would be wary of some political parties given their track record - and I would see that as understandable when the MPH priority is the MPH campaign and not something else.

Therefore quite a few listen with a sense of irony as some of the more vocal parties that are raising the undemocratic issue - put it into that very context of not only that track record but of the real reasoning for such parties wishing to get involved.

But as stated I personally would not necessarily agree with parties being completely exculded even though it was a decision made by the majority well before some political parties wanted to jump on board when that huge momentum for the campaign became obvious - and therefore only then - with it - their call for that right for involvement so came.



Any other questions I will deal with if people put their names as the Anon's could go on and on - and have limited time.

by cynical - NGO worker (but afraid to say which one) Wed Apr 20, 2005 15:18 Belfast

I don't think anyone should be attacking this, that, or the other group for using the title Make Poverty History. MPH is a coalition and is SUPPOSED to be used by anyone who wants to be involved in campaigning against debt, from whatever angle. There should be no trademark on it, as some here are implying there is. My own (very respectable, which is why I cannot put my name here) organisation is part of MPH and uses the title on some of its promotional literature - less to campaign against debt, the G8 etc than to raise its own profile.

There have been several MPH meetings, conferences and seminars held in Belfast - by NI Council for Voluntary Action, NI Anti Poverty Network and by CADA, as well as Street Seen. I don't think Street Seen has anymore of a right to the MPH trademark than any of the other NGOs and certainly some NGOs are concerned that MPH is being infiltrated by far left/anarchist/SWP elements through Street Seen's involvement.

The fact that Street Seen just announced itself as THE organiser of NI's input to MPH and the G8 is seen as undemocratic and underhand. No one is quite sure what the agenda is but the fear is that Street Seen (more particularly Davy C. and through him the SWP) is using MPH for their own purposes. Unfortunately, the result of the undemocratic way in which Street Seen went about doing this is that MPH will have less of an impact than it might have done otherwise .

Certainly, within the NGO I work for, a real opportunity to advance the anti-poverty and anti-G8 agenda has been lost because of it. Our Director has just said not to get involved and there's no sign of people I work with being willing to ignore this. I want to get involved, but am really put off by the way the whole thing is being organised and bickered over. I am just going to arrange my own travel to Edinburgh and stay with friends there. That way, I can avoid the hidden agendas.

by Peter Cosgrave Wed Apr 20, 2005 15:36

The last post is full of lies. The poster quite clearly hasn't been to any meeting. Davy Carlin left the SWP months, regular readers of the site would have noticed the bitter attacks that SWP members are making against Davy. Not quite something you would do if you are trying to control a campaign through him. As for the MPH logo it is trademarked to comic relief. Any organisation joining the campaign has to sign up to strict rules about the use of the logo. Again something you would have found out if you had bothered to get involved. As for your attacks on street seen, propagating lies is no substitute for rational debate. Street Seen is a magazine run by people with different political persuasions, not one specific ideology. All of them are activists. I believe this "respectable NGO" you are involved in actually does not exist, merely another lie in an attempt to blacken the name of a homeless magazine and the projects it is involved in. Shame on you.

by Jon Glackin Wed Apr 20, 2005 18:12 streetseen at hotmail dot co dot uk 0774 327 5533

Normally I try to abstain from replying to people attempting to disrail threads, but I’m gonna make an exception as Cynical raises some important issues that need addressed.

Tis true that MPH is a broad coalition of groups unified in agreement of the manifesto I posted earlier and as such these groups have signed up to the MPH campaign. Ratified members of the MPH campaign then are in position to develop the campaign following certain guidelines.

MAKEPOVERTYHISTORY is a registered trademark so as to minimise or indeed stop abuse from certain parties that would try to exploit the name for their own nefarious purposes. There is a strict code to its use and any use of the ‘logo’ must be cleared by the MPH campaign so as to not bring the MPH campaign into disrepute.

Tis also true that there have been recent regular MPH organisational meetings attended by MPH members. Street Seen has never held any meetings, conferences or seminars under the MPH banner, for that matter we have only ever held open editorial meetings that are open to all.
The annual NICVA conference mentioned was on the general topic of ‘Poverty: Will the poor always be with us’ not a MPH meeting c/f http://www.nicva.org/article.asp?ArticleID=9856 . The Making Poverty History meeting again was not a MPH meeting c/f http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69028 . Funny enough the only public MPH meeting organised in Belfast, so far, held by Comhlamh, didn’t merit a mention by the trembling cynic!

I will briefly address the issues posed by the timorous cynic

Certainly some NGOs are concerned that MPH is being infiltrated by far left/anarchist/SWP elements through Street Seen's involvement.

I would appeal to the anonymous cynic to raise this issue directly at the next MPH organisational meeting; you mentioned your NGO is a member. I would also hope you raise the fact that Street Seen editorial group not only has far left/ Anarchist members but Republicans, Loyalists, Priests, Indymedia, Palestinians, Iraqis, Social Workers, liberals, Environmentalists, NGOs etc etc.. Tragically we do not have any SWP input as yet, but, they are more than welcome to join the open debate if they can.

The fear is that Street Seen (more particularly Davy C. and through him the SWP) is using MPH for their own purposes.

Davy, as I’m sure most people know is not a member of the SWP.
As to our own purposes, we wish to raise the issue of Poverty locally and internationally. We have affiliated to the MPH campaign and wish to see it develop as it raises the important issues of trade, debt and aid, so I kinda guess guilty as charged!!

The fact that Street Seen just announced itself as THE organiser of NI's input to MPH and the G8 is seen as undemocratic and underhand.


In the short lifetime of Street Seen, I am constantly amazed as to the power that an un-aligned anti-poverty paper can allegedly hold in certain minds. I refute your statement without reserve, please publicly elaborate. If the shaking cynic had attended any of the meetings they would realise that all decisions pertaining to the MPH campaign are democratically decided. NEVER has Street Seen stated we were the organisers!! You maybe confuse us with other certain bandwagon jumping organisations unconnected to the MPH campaign.

The result of the undemocratic way in which Street Seen went about doing this is that MPH will have less of an impact than it might have done otherwise .

My fearful friend you overestimate our influence I believe!! I truly hope that you can play an active part in the MPH campaign and detach yourself from your fixed ideology that Street Seen is the enemy, it is up to all of us to play a part and maximise the impact of MPH.

. I want to get involved, but am really put off by the way the whole thing is being organised and bickered over

Get involved!! I am not party to, or aware of, any bickering pertaining to MPH. Though I am aware of certain political organisations frustrations due to the openness, transparency and democratic manner that the MPH campaign is organised.

I recommend if you wish to continue your attacks on Street Seen you please contain it to the relevant threads as it has absolutely no relevance to the MPH campaign and could be construed that you have an ulterior reason for your post.

I hope we meet again soon.......

by . Wed Apr 20, 2005 21:41

what the hell was that all about?

I am still not clear what MPH is but it would appear to be a nest of bitter in fighting already.

BTW am I reading your comment right Davy, are you saying that the SWP are using the NI Anti Poverty Network as a front?

by . Wed Apr 20, 2005 21:43

could someone list organisations affiliated to MPH?

by Jon Glackin Wed Apr 20, 2005 23:15

Apologies for the previous post as it was slightly off topic, I was addressing Cynical NGO concerns and wished to get it out of the way openly once and for all regarding Street Seen. A lot of people were ringing me viewing it as an unjust attack....

Back on Topic...

Currently there are 388 groups affiliated to the MPH campaign, the numbers are rising every day.
Check out www.makepovertyhistory.org and www.makepovertyhistory.ie for up to date info on the campaign

Within Ireland participants include amongst others...
ActionAid Ireland
Afri
AidLink
Children In Crossfire
Christian Aid
Church of Ireland Bishops' Appeal
Comhlámh
Concern
CORI Justice Commission
Debt & Development Coalition Ireland
Dóchas
EAPN Ireland
Fairtrade Mark Ireland
Friends of the Earth Ireland
Health & Development Network
Irish Congress of Trade Unions
IDEA
IFPA
IMU
KADE
Oxfam Ireland
Presentation Justice Network
The Rose Project
Skillshare International Ireland
Trócaire.
UCD Development Studies Centre
WorldVision Ireland
Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice

The current MPHNI membership list will be confirmed and released when the website is launched next week.

by Mary J Thu Apr 21, 2005 00:53

no need to apologise for your reply John I thought you sayd what had to be sayd well. The only nest of fighting i see is the usual indymedie trolls stirring it up. I got your paper last week in Amnesty and its hardly full of the far left and anarkists .why are the trolls obsessed with calling people anarkists? Brilliant paper better than that Big issue. Just ignore the trolls. Good luck with Street Scene i look forward to the next 1 loved the George Monboit article :-)

by Tim - Not in one Thu Apr 21, 2005 14:10

Yep it's hardly left wing - in fact the politics of the paper (not contributors) come across as Thatcherite.

by Nice one Thu Apr 21, 2005 15:47

I got a copy of Street Seen from Red Ink. I thought it was excellent , its about time a quality paper was produced. How can people contribute?

by eeekkkk Thu Apr 21, 2005 16:03

by getting in touch with Jon or Davy who have kindlu posted their mail addresses above. Wow that was some piece of disinfo from cynic from NGO there will be lots and lots of disinfo around anything to do with G8 in next little while lots of creepy crawlies getting busy

by Mark Grehan Thu Apr 21, 2005 16:09

Anyone who wishes to contribute can email streetseen04@hotmail.com or can contact myself on 087 7974622 or Jonny on 00447743275533 or Davy on 00447774053223