martin shaw and the swp/gr

by anti capitalist Sun Jun 08, 2003 17:36

Time to adopt the same approach in Ireland. This is NOT bitching, I am talking about political strategy. We just can't afford to let them get away with it, they'll fuck us over at the first opportunity and we all know it now. The SWP/IAWM attacked and slandered Non Violent Direct Action anti war activists in the corporate media--how ironic that they now protest against them!--they have never apologised to us and they'll do the the next time. Now they have the gall to try to hijack the success of Direct Action at Evian. No way.

by SPySPotter Sun Jun 08, 2003 17:51

Matt WAine of the SP condemned the Direct ACtion at Evian, this was in the Irish Times Monday 2 June. He accused the Black Bloc of being Police Agent Provocateures.

by Pink and Silver - No permanent organisation Sun Jun 08, 2003 18:49

I read that interview and he didn't "condemn direct action". He did criticise the Black Block and said that cops in Genoa were posing as Black Block. That's not the same as condemning direct action.

The Socialist Party in my view is inconsistent about direct action. Sometimes they are up for it sometimes they are opposed to it seemingly at random which I don't really understand. I respect their actions with the Dublin Airport workers and their stuff during the water charges but I think that their attitude towards DA at Shannon was just stupid.

Either way the person above is confusing different issues to score points. Criticise the SP for being inconsistent about direct action sure. Or disagree with Matt Waine about whether the Black Block are a good thing (I have mixed views on that, I want to respect others in the movements right to choose their own tactics but Black Block tactics on mixed demos have consequences for everyone else). Or disagree with him about whether or not there were cops posing as Black Block in Genoa (though I thought that was widely accepted in the movement at this stage even amongst most Black Blockers). But try to at least stick to what they actually say rather than just throwing any old shit you hope will stick.

Just thinking about it I'm not sure that the original letter from Guy Taylor really deserved such an angry response. I mean we all know that GR is just an SWP front and that they will often try to hijack anything that moves. But if you think back to their attempt to hijack the RTS police violence protests the letter or email above takes a different approach. GR/SWP were asking who was up for organising a protest with them arising from events at a big protest that they were at too. Isn't that the kind of approach we want people in the movement to be taking rather than the approach they took after RTS of just jumping in and trying to take over? I'd normally be the first to put the boot into the SWP but I think that it might be a bit unfair this time.

There you go, both Leninist parties defended sort of in one post. I think I'll go and wash my mouth at with soap and water now.

by serves them right Sun Jun 08, 2003 18:59

if guy taylor was an internal email to gr minions, it WAS an attempt to hijack the protest. if it wasn't, well, they have behaved so badly that it's no surprise that peole just can't trust them.

by a Sun Jun 08, 2003 20:39

SPySPotter= liar,fool or cop?

by for the times we live in Sun Jun 08, 2003 23:39

(incidently I don't see the word condemn mentioned by Mr. Waine)...

Region besieged by twin menace shuts down

SWITZERLAND: Protesters aside, Geneva is currently a ghost town, reports Lara Marlowe, on the Franco-Swiss border.

Camouflage-green fighter jets, anti-aircraft artillery and armoured vehicles are parked on the Tarmac at Geneva Airport. Attack helicopters circle overhead and German riot police block major intersections. They were invited by their Swiss neighbours, in the knowledge that the most violent anti-globalisation protesters are young Germans wearing ski-masks who call themselves the Black Block.

Down the highway in Lausanne, a wall of freight containers has been built around the marina, topped by two rows of concertina barbed wire. In Évian itself, the inner sanctum of four controlled zones, hemmed in between the lake and sheer granite mountains, the swimming pool at the Hôtel Royal is adapted to decontaminate presidents and prime ministers in the event of a radiation or chemical attack.

The world's eight most powerful men are meeting in the French spa town of Évian, and on the day of the main protest march against the G8 Summit, the entire region felt besieged by the twin menace of bin Laden's al-Qaeda and the anti-globalisation movement.

"I don't see why Geneva should have to put up with all this," said my Swiss taxi-driver, a naturalised Tunisian. No other driver at the airport was brave enough to take me to the anti-globalisation march. "Over there at Évian," he continued, "the French have no problem - they're protected. This was a rotten thing for Chirac to do to us."

On Saturday night, the boys from the Black Block attacked dozens of shop and car windows in the Swiss capital. Yesterday they looted and vandalised two BP petrol stations in villages on the border, during a 70,000- strong protest march.

A young man was severely injured when he fell while abseiling from a bridge in Lausanne. Demonstrators claimed security forces cut his rope, but this could not be confirmed.

Downtown Geneva was a ghost town, its famous banks and fashionable shops boarded up until Tuesday. Switzerland's unwelcome guests decorated the plywood in a riot of colours and slogans: "Change the World; dÉVIANt Summit; Stop Mad Cowboys; George, Tony: Where are Iraq's Chemical Weapons? No to the Petroltariat." It was a glorious summer day, but the good burghers of Geneva were quaking behind closed shutters.

I arranged to meet Garrett Mullan of Globalise Resistance Ireland in front of a green van covered by a "McDollar'$" sign, along the main demonstration route. The march that had so frightened Geneva was more like a good-natured street party, with thousands of cheerful French, German, Italian, Spanish and British people walking by, many of them waving rainbow-coloured peace flags. A band played samba music in the shade of a bridge.

Mr Mullan pointed out a handful of Black Block activists and we approached them. The most sinister-looking wore a khaki ski mask and carried a sack full of stones. He just scowled when I spoke to him. I was surprised to see two or three young women among them. The least fierce-looking of the group had orange-dyed punk hair. "Black Block isn't really a group," he said in a heavy German accent. Why were they trying to disrupt the G8? "They're eight people who kill. There's Berlusconi the fascist, Bush the murderer..." Fire engines barrelled down the road towards the BP station that was under attack by their comrades. The Black Block activists cheered and ran after the red trucks.

"There aren't very many of them," Mr Mullan said. I heard that argument several times yesterday from anti-globalisation protesters seeking to distance themselves from the violence.

"We would not defend or advocate what Black Block do," said Matthew Waine, the youth organiser for the Irish socialist party. He was at Genoa when Carlo Giuliani (21) was shot dead by Italian riot police.

"In Genoa, I saw Black Block members talking and smoking cigarettes with security forces," Mr Waine said. "There are a lot of agents provocateurs, to discredit the movement and give them a reason for rushing in with the tear gas."

Mr Mullan (27) works with the Simon Community in Ireland. He and Mr Waine (22) are living proof that the left did not die out with the end of the Soviet Union or the more recent loss of elections across Europe. They are part of a growing protest movement that increasingly proposes alternatives to world leaders - hence the newly coined French term "alter-globalisation" in lieu of "anti-globalisation".

By turning out in force at G8 and other major summits, the anti-globalisation movement has transformed the agenda of such fora, forcing them to address Third World poverty and disease. Partly to placate them, the current (stalled) round of trade negotiations was named the Development Round.

President Jacques Chirac has astutely tapped into the widespread dissatisfaction with the way the free movement of goods and capital are affecting the lives of Europeans and the developing world. The US delegation at the summit snidely speculated that he is promoting aid to Africa as a pay-back for African support during the Iraq crisis, but Africa was one of Mr Chirac's priorities long before President Bush began talking of invading Iraq.

Anti-globalisation activists now stress that the influence they've had on world leaders, forcing them to donate money to combat AIDS, for example, must be extended to social policy in their home countries.

Mr Mullan and Mr Waine attended an anti-war counter-summit at the University of Geneva this weekend, where the keynote speaker was the British MP George Galloway.

But their biggest concern is bringing the spirit of protest back to Ireland.

On October 20th, the World Economic Forum, the meeting of the top 1,000 multinational companies (which usually meets in Davos) will convene in Dublin. "We're calling for an international demonstration with this kind of character - like Prague, Genoa, Geneva," Mr Mullan said.

Mr Waine had even broader ambitions for the Irish left. "There's a wider question which we have to ask ourselves," he said.

"Where is this going? We can consign our anger to a couple of days a year, but the key is relating it to local issues - for example, to the trade unions, to the looming crisis between communities and the government over rubbish collection."

by Du Sun Jun 08, 2003 23:53

Well done all who went to protest.
SPySPotter you are a cop bastard.

by OK - SP Mon Jun 09, 2003 01:50

First of all I would not take everything in the Irish Times as being correct representation of the views of left wing organisations.

However before people start launching into injustified and irration attacks on the SP they should actually read what an SP member was quoted.

I think it's safe to say that in Genoa many Black Block members were police agents- that is NOT saying all were police agents.

Before we end up with the usual rants & mistruths against 'trots' (akin to the Tory Tabloid press of the 80s) we should all read what was actually said.

by so why do you talk to them? Mon Jun 09, 2003 08:17

If the anti-trot rants are akin to the tory press of the 80s, joe higgins and rich boy barrett anti-direct action rants at shannon were akin to the tory press, bush, blair, bertie of today.

by Frank Mon Jun 09, 2003 09:44

What a myth. 30-40 people dancing at the fence.

by Ray Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:38

A couple of people have talked about Black Block members in Genoa being undercover cops. There is no evidence of this.
There is a lot of evidence that there were cops in plain clothes mingling with demonstrators, but they were in _plain_ clothes. Not (in any of the photos I've seen) dressed in black, or wearing black balaclavas or bandannas.
I'm not ruling out the possibility that the Black Block included some provocateurs. That's impossible to do when you can't identify all of the BB members. But _none_ of the photos that are pointed to when this accusation is made (including the pictures in Berlusconi's Mousetrap) actually show cops dressed as BBers. There is _no_ positive evidence for infiltration.
And this is not something that should be bandied about lightly.

by SpySPotter Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:44

Waine (SP) says he wouldnt support or condone what the Black Bloc do. This is typical of the SP, where there is a clash between the State and demonstrators they always seem to be unsure of which side they should be on.

Whether it is Shannon or even going back to the Poll Tax (Police) Riots, you will find the SP attacking demonstrators rather than the cops.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:37

"OK: I think it's safe to say that in Genoa many Black Block members were police agents- that is NOT saying all were police agents."

"ray : There is _no_ positive evidence for infiltration.
And this is not something that should be bandied about lightly."

I agree with Ray - I've seen this propagated again and again and again with VERY little supporting evidence except for a few photos of people having a fag !

There were about 16,000 cops at Genoa and the cops to some extent probably infiltrated ALL the anti G 8 protests.

On the black blocks in Genoa I saw quite a lot of incompetence, inexperience, lack of local knowledge, political naivety and disorganisation (in that particular) block any way but no evidence what so ever of police infiltration.

"Direct Action at Shannon
by Frank Mon, Jun 9 2003, 8:44am

What a myth. 30-40 people dancing at the fence. "

It was actually more like 200-300
The REAL SHAME was the 7-800 being told by their leaders to walk by it !

report with photos on march 1st at

http://www.struggle.ws/wsm/news/2003/gnawMARCH.html

Conor

by Sylvia Pankhurst - Anarchist Federation Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:19

Was going to post exactly what Ray and Connor just said, but just to re-iterate where's your fucking evidence???? The left always screams provactuer at anything they cannot control...same stuff is coming from Evian where plainclothes cops - wearing masks cause of gas - are supposedly black bloc infiltrators - despite they fact that had orange arm bands with police written on them!!! Anyways the point of these claims is that Black Bloc are under police control which is ludicrous, indeed if I remember right Berlusconis Mousetrap has a whole section on it ...from a fictious police report pretending a police strategy of doing just this!!! Mostly this was put out as an excuse for other people's failures e.g. the Ya Basta strategy did not work, and the IST lead their followers straight into a police ambush.
Which is of course not to be full of fullsome praise for the Black Bloc - it's responsible for all it's own failures.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:32

"sylvia: indeed if I remember right Berlusconis Mousetrap has a whole section on it ...from a fictious police report pretending a police strategy of doing just this!!! "

Exactly

there's nothing the cops love more then everyone denouncing each other as police informers

Mind you in general this is a very good film though maybe a bit over paranoid (then again as some one who was there it was pretty fecking scary)

- There is one section where there's a voice over from some one claiming the black block got treated with kid gloves while underneath at the same time is video evidence of them being bombarded with tear gass !

To get back the the general issue I would sat fair play to the British GR for taking up the case of Martin Shaw or any one who was injured or imprisoned - I think its very important to applaud any GENUINE solidarity actions!

Conor

by Joe Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:38

Is the same 'standard of proof' the SP uses for its CONSTANT accusations that a considerable portion of the Black Black are cops were applied to the SP we would be able to label the SP an organisation of informers. Senior SP/Militant members have been spotted/quoted threatening to 'name names' or pointing out organisers to the cops in the past without any public distancing of the party from their leaders. Contrast this with the one occasion I'm aware of where cops were spotted infiltrating a BB, they had the crap beaten out of them.

by Badman Mon Jun 09, 2003 13:16

It has less sylables than trotskyist, therefore being a handy shortened form.
It avoids the contention over whether to call them troskyists, or trotskyites (some trots think that this is a significant division)
It sounds like 'tots' which is conveniently reminiscent of their toytown revolutionary politics!

by Irony is Dead Mon Jun 09, 2003 19:24

"some trots think that this is a significant division" says Badman during a discourse on the word Trots.

by Badman Tue Jun 10, 2003 13:01

I was taking the f***ing piss, you moron.

by Yeah But Tue Jun 10, 2003 13:05

(Trot with a sense of humour, now that is funny - don't you know that humour is counter-revolutionary comrade)

by Irony is dead Tue Jun 10, 2003 21:40

Badman was being totally fucking serious - just love your self censorship.

Oh and 'yeah' a sense of humour is not counter-revolutionary - it's a must. The fun we'll have deciding how to put down the counter-revolutionary elements during the revolution :)

by Durutti Wed Jun 11, 2003 15:33

You mean you will commit suicide?

by first against the wall Sun Nov 30, 2003 14:05

I'd imagine he's refering to to the fun the security forces of the dictatorship of the proletariat will have purifying the revolution.

Ah, the joy of slittng each others throats.

by jo bloggs Sun Nov 30, 2003 21:46

Its amazing that as soon as BB sit about, smoke a cig and talk to the cops, the Socialists claim infultration and worse. Yet when (the socilists) they sit about, smoke a cig and talk to cops its ok?

It seems to be a tactict to discredit the BB, by putting the fear of bieng 'blind state goons' into anybody who might be considering joining in a BB action, which of course only helps the state.

by Dont Forget Mon Dec 01, 2003 11:19

He wrote an article in the Voice, praising the restraint of the cops, he attacked the BB and didnt even mention the incident on the bridge. The same O'Brien who sabotaged the Shannon DA by raving about the need for medics. The same O'Brien who is now Chief Steward of the Demo next Saturday.

When he was told by the IAWM Demo Sub Group that the function of stewards was to protect the demonstators and not police them, he laughed in their faces. He made it clear that as Chief Steward he was in charge.

Now, could it be that the EUROPOL have infiltrated the SP and have an agent in the SP leadership? Theres more empirical evidence for this than there is for BB infiltration.

by BBer Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:09

I think it's safe to say that in Genoa many SP/CWI members were police agents- that is NOT saying all were police agents.

by UCD Hedd Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:29

Many of them passed information on to UCD authorities and the cops, but some didnt.

by SP member (personal capacity) Mon Dec 01, 2003 13:46

That's fucking bollocks. I am sick and tired of anonomous trolls on this site having a childish go at the SP. The SP are not spies, they did not pass on info to the cops in Genoa or to the UCD authorities.

Yes, some SP member somewhere said that A SMALL HANDFULL of those that joined the BB were agents provocateurs. This is well documented fact, at the time the WSM and most Anarchists agreed with this.

by Andrew Mon Dec 01, 2003 14:13

Err no we didn't, we've never had any position on the question of the Genoa BB and individual members who were there would disagree with any tendency to single out any one group as infiltrated.

I don't really approve of the spoof above as its dragging up old arguments for no productive purpose but the critique behind it is correct. Both pre and post Genoa SP members were very obviously using this idea of infiltratiion as a political attack on BB tactics, in the tradition it has to be said of Marx, Lenin and Stalin. The crude attempts above to turn this around make the point quite well.

Some WSM writing on Genoa including accounts from one of the Black blocs will be found at

http://struggle.ws/wsm/news/2001/genoa.html
http://struggle.ws/a_news/an25_genoa.html
http://struggle.ws/ws/2001/66/genoaarrest.html
http://struggle.ws/wsm/news/2001/genoatv_july.html
http://struggle.ws/wsm/ws/2002/73/moustrap.html

A 'post Genoa' debate on the Black bloc starts at
http://struggle.ws/rbr/rbr6/black.html
and is continued in the latest issue of Red and Black Revolution