Bronze statue to IRA Chief of Staff Sean Russell

by A Freeman Mon Jun 29, 2009 23:28

Hard to believe that some people think that statues should be erected to the memory of Nazi collaborators, a statue of William Joyce (Lord haw-haw) must be next on the agenda?

by history ireland Tue Jun 30, 2009 14:00

Harder to believe that some idiots still catagorise Sean Russell as some sort of nazi.

A hero of the 1916 Rising and the Black and Tan War, Russell stayed loyal to the goal of a united and free Republic after the Treaty. He traveled widely and visited Soviet Russia, the United States, and Germany in efforts to get weapons and money for the Republican cause. He died in 1940, in the company of Frank Ryan, who had also left Ireland, in his case to fight against fascism in the Spanish Civil War.

If Russell was a supporter of nazism then so, logically, was Ryan. He must also have been a Communist, since he had negotiated with Stalinists, and his trips to America must classify him as a supporter of international capitalism. The clear fact that he repudiated all political ideologies except Irish Republicanism is obviously a cover for this incredibly complicated Capitalist, Soviet Nazi.

All this is well known and argued to death here and elsewhere. It's sad that some think it correct to keep up this nonsense. Sad but inevitable. I expect to see a Kevin Myers article calling Russell a nazi within a few weeks.

by A Freeman Wed Jul 01, 2009 21:48

It's quite sad that 'history ireland' has to rely on irrelevant comparisons of Russell's collaboration with Nazi Germany to his attempts to cosy up to the Stalinist regime in Russia or perhaps also win the support of misguided Americans for his terrorist activities, Neither the fact that he befriended communists or capitalists can be used to justify his collaboration with Nazis, it merely shows that Russell had no real principles except hatred of Britain, but then that does seem to be regarded as a principle by some of our self-declared 'republicans' in this country.

If Russell was a real republican perhaps he would have committed himself to real republican principles such as trying to secure equal rights for women (marriage bar etc) or non-sectarian education in our so-called republic (instead of the clerical 'rome rule' established in 1922). Of course, he preferred to plan bombing campaigns in Britain and collaboration with totalitarian regimes - a fine Irish republican indeed!

p.s. As for Frank Ryan it's hard to know how keen he was on collaborating with Hitler as he had been plucked from Franco's dungeons (where he faced execution) by the Abwehr to be used for the Nazis own ends. Considering he had gone to Spain to defend a real republic which the Nazis helped destroy, I can't imagine he was as enamoured of Nazi Germany as Russell seemed to be, why not a statue of Ryan instead of Russell?

by francis hughes Wed Jul 01, 2009 23:03

Frank Ryan. Sean Russell. two great Irish men, two anti imperialists, who sacrificed all for the defence, sovereignty, pride of their small nation, one of the longest colonised countries in the world, by the biggest evilest facist empire in the world ( Brit plunder * pillage make nazi Germany look like disney land). How dare they stand up and try to free their land by any means necessary maybe or maybe not using alliances. how picky u are, amongst all the rotten things to be against in this world would u try to besmirch the name of these heroes. u are a troll and have been on these topics before, in fact i think u also tried to link republicanism to anti semitism and also came out with zionist garb too on palastine threads.

p.s By the way the word 'nazi' is bandied around here. Surely no one thinks these men had any ideological similarities with the nazi party in germany. if they do, they would want to attend a basic introduction to politics class.

by history ireland Thu Jul 02, 2009 00:10

"why not a statue of Ryan instead of Russell?"

Why not indeed? As soon as you get started on raising money for it let me know. I'll contribute.

The statue to Sean Russell was paid for by private subscriptions pretty easily, and thousands of people attended the original unveiling in 1951, including representatives of unions, political parties, sports associations, and all the rest. They were obviously contemporaries of Russell, and had opinions of him as a man, as well as an activist and soldier.

Of course you know better.

by Cael Dubh - Sinn Féin Poblachtach Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:35

It's ridiculous to suggest that Russell was collaborating with the Nazis because he was willing to take arms from them. After all, the US and Britain delayed their attack on mainland Europe so that the USSR would be drained by having to face Germany alone. For that period, Britain and the US were, in effect, allied to Nazi Germany against the USSR.

by Jacqueline Fallon Thu Jul 02, 2009 22:02

I respect Seán Russell for his participation in the 1916 Rising and for his participating in the War of Independence and the Civil War and his unceasing fight to unite this country until his death - I respect him for this alone, but there ends my respect for him.

I do not respect Seán Russell for accepting training and weapons from the Nazi regime - this is a shameful and should be denounced without ambivalent offerings of ignorant and pathetic excuses. I find it extremely hard to listen to pitiful excuses from anybody for Seán Russell seeking assistance from the Nazis - it was wrong and nothing anyone can say will convince me otherwise. People knew at the time what the abominable Nazi regime was doing; and the fact that Mr Russell received training and took arms from the Nazis without question and, obviously, with conditions attached (the Nazis were not known for their kindly benevolence) - they did not assist anyone 'unconditionally'!

If any German person or Nazi sympathiser out there knows what conditions were attached to these ‘gifts’ of arms from such a diabolically evil regime as the Nazis or has record of them locked away safely somewhere, please dust them down - I would like to know what those conditions were - someone out there knows the accurate account and may have inherited it, as the Nazi regime was highly organised and kept accurate records of everything they did.

Sadly, Seán Russell will always be tainted by the fact that he shamefully sought assistance from the Nazi regime. They have motion sensors embedded in his Statue now and GPS Satellite tracking too (and that is a sad reflection in itself, surely) - let us pray that should his head ever go missing again that, God forbid, it won't be traced back to the Nazis!

by Kevin Myarse Thu Jul 02, 2009 22:10

So, anyone who kept up normal relations with the German government at this time must be "tainted" in the same way then?

Like the US government? Like Fine Gael who had nothing but praise for Hitler, and FF and the Irish government, who kept up normal relations to the point of signing the sympathy book for Hitler at the German embassy?

Even the Finnish government? And of course, the Soviets, who well after Russell's death, were still keeping up normal relations with Germany.

Calling Russell a nazi is as loopy as calling Roosevelt or Stalin nazis, it makes no sense.

Get over it.

by Jacqueline Fallon Thu Jul 02, 2009 22:21

Anyone who associated with the Nazi regime has been tainted, in my opinion - all should be ashamed (and would be in an ideal world!)

by k m Fri Jul 03, 2009 01:34

60 million Germans, the governments and populations of several European countries, including this one, the United States, Japan, pretty much everyone from the makers of Fanta to Walt Disney to Oscar Schindler, all are "tainted". Do you not think that is a bit simple minded?

And why the special problem with the Nazi's?

The British were if anything, more racist and more deadly. They certainly conquered more countries, often driving the original populations out and replacing them with British settlers. Their reign of bloody terror echoes across centuries, and its ramifications continue to this day, from Ireland to Palestine to Iran to Sri Lanka. Why don't you feel associating with them has a "taint"?

by Jacqueline Fallon Fri Jul 03, 2009 21:10

The previous poster is deluded if he/she thinks I would ever associate with anyone connected with the British Imperialist Regime and it is does not say much for you to state such a gross inaccuracy. I have taken to the streets many times and strongly protested against it, and have continuously highlighted its acts of brutality here and its callous regard for the lives and rights of Irish people, when they (i.e. MI5/MI6) have played Irish citizens against each other in a 'murderous chess game’, coldly, selecting which Irish citizen lives or dies in order to preserve and breathe life into their pathetically floundering imperialist regime. Also, I have campaigned against other madcap military regimes which have taken root elsewhere and are equally as brutal and reprehensible.

I do have some knowledge of the Nazi Regime from research I have done and from speaking to German friends, who have given me a lot of insight into the thoughts of their own parents and their grandparents who witnessed events at the time - and many were well aware of what was happening, particularly, in the cities (indeed, Seán Russell would have been too, if he ever left the Nazi training ground and took time out to visit ordinary decent German citizens living in fear and absolute terror for coming to the aid of a neighbour who just happened to be Jewish).

In my opinion, Seán Russell made a dreadful mistake seeking assistance from the diabolical Nazi Regime and I wish to God he had not done so, and as a consequence, he has become a divisive figure in Ireland. Personally, I am uncomfortable and embarrassed to know that an Irish Republican befriended and sought assistance from the Nazis - what an Earth was he thinking?

by francis hughes Sun Jul 05, 2009 19:42

he was thinking of throwing of the shackles of the age old oppresser of his country. ok so Wolfe Tone is a bastard now for lookin for help from the French in 1798. And the irish chiefs for seeking assistance from Spain when both countries were up to their necks in pillage n plunder. wake up and smell the coffee slave. i am the fiercest anti nazi, anti fascist u will meet and i would have prefered if irish people rose up off their holes themselves to overthrow british imperialism (+ irish capitalism) instaed of lookin for outside support but historically they dont. cos a lot of them are fence sitters like some of these posters here or pinko liberals. send back all the money republican resistance movements have got from people in America over the years cos I wasnt happy with the policies of the american government at certain times, ha, where do u want to draw the line

by anti fascist Sun Jul 05, 2009 20:13

I am a commited anti fascist but anyone should now that between history books in school to big hollywood movies we are dished out the British and allied version of World War 2. This should not confuse those of us that seek out facism wherever it lurks. It is very easy to portray the nazis rightfully as evil bastards and as we know as anti facists we can confront there counterparts, same bone heads on the streets of our cities in europe today but the facists that really are the most cunning and dangerous are those that have suits and play workin clas people like pawns. i truely think that the Brit government at that time had this fascist tendency too and anyone to stand up to their hypocricy like Sean Russell would have to be commended. i do not think the man possessed any racialist, supremicist, sectarian ideas, i do not think he had any ideas of expansionism for his small island or any reactionary plans if his country was to be re-united. I think people can get a little hot and bothered over the issue, which in a way shows the passion irish people have for their historical figures. As people often judge people are u A Dev man or a Collins man, of course it doesnt matter and we often get caught up in personalities but i must say i would never be ashamed if someone called me a Russel man as he possessed graeter anti imperialistic sentiments an did not betray his fellow Irish men in the 6 counties either.
I also often like to ask these 'anti nazi heroes' (cough cough) that cut off the statues head, if they ever would like to take a trip up the road to Belfast or other parts of Antrim where actual fascists are organising and have a close link in many places to loyalist paramilitaries. Usually when I do that, I am left waiting...