Irish Born Children Scheme

by Tadhg Tue Oct 23, 2007 16:12

I thought the concept of family unity was embedded firmly in our constitution. If this is really going on in this country then I think it is disgraceful.

by samara Tue Oct 23, 2007 19:41

The right of family reunification in international law is a right to reunification in a country in which the relevant family members have a right to reside. It is not a right to "shop around" and then demand that all family members have a right to join the "shopper".

Ireland observes the internationally recognized principles which allows the immediate family-members of most legal immigrants to join them here in Ireland. In particular, Ireland allows family-reunification-rights to the immediate family-members (spouses and minor children) of all refugees residing in Ireland.

Naturally enough, reunification "rights" do not extend in any jurisdiction on the planet to illegal immigrants and their families - immediate or otherwise.

The immigrants who are the subject of this article are all illegal-immigrants. Most of them are people who have been found-out abusing the asylum-process. In an act of considerable generosity the former Justice Minister granted a residency-amnesty to a large number of non-EU women and children who had no legal right to be here. Many were failed asylum-seekers. Most were women who came to Ireland in the late stages of pregnancy with the purpose of availing of the "Irish-baby scam" but missed the boat when the Constitution and law were changed. They were given the option of a residency-amnesty on condition they accepted that they would have no right to bring other alleged family-members to Ireland. They agreed that if family-reunification was their priority they were free to exercise it in the country from whence they came. This is perfectly reasonable because none of these people are refugees and they have no reason (other than economic advantage) to prevent them returning home to the family-members with whom they wish to be united.

It is important when evaluating the sort of emotive and inaccurate extract which heads this discussion to be familiar with the facts.

by Lagbaja Wed Oct 24, 2007 13:16

Samara, I do not agree (in part) with your submissions. I am a failed asylum seeker quite alright and I would agree that some of the non-EU nationals granted residency under the revised arrangement [now known as IBC/05] were failed asylum seekers. However, I differ with your description of “the immigrants who are the subject of this article” as being illegal immigrants. The former Justice Minister and indeed the good people of the Irish Republic who voted in the 2004 Referendum accepted these children born [at that time and] on this Island to non-Irish Nationals as Citizens of this country. Indeed the Constitution of the land also recognises these so-called illegal immigrants as full and proper Citizens of the Republic in so far as they were born on this island before 1st January 2005, irrespective of whether or not their parents were aliens.

I believe that the issue to be debated is whether or not it is fair to deprive this class of vulnerable Irish citizens the company and care of their immediate family within their country of origin. Is it politically correct and is it morally right to institute such prejudices against citizens such that they become and remain disadvantaged all their lives? I don’t mean to deride single-parent families, but, if both parents can work out their differences and live together within a family unit under the same roof, this would provide the best environment for the overall development of the child.

As someone recently put it, the wider debate is actually about whether or not Ireland wants to become a multi-cultural society or instead remain as it used to be. The truth is Ireland is already a multi-cultural society. She became officially multicultural when she embraced the EU, adopted the Euro, and opened up her borders to the free movement of European labour.

Immigration is always a sensitive issue and that is quite understandable; after all we are humans. We remain eternally grateful to the government and people of Ireland for helping our wives and children settle in. We also accept the decision of the regulatory bodies in the asylum process where we failed. But let’s not forget that our wives and children are humans as well. Let’s not treat this issue as a matter that pertains to just another statistic in society, but as a matter that pertains to fellow human beings.

Anne O’Connor, thank you for highlighting our plight. I believe there are people like me among the fathers of IBC/05 children who genuinely want to contribute to the growth of this economy, who do not intend to abuse the system, who want to provide for their families, and who want to read bed time stories to their children and bring them up here in Ireland to the Irish standard. Samara, is that too much to ask for?

The worst that will happen is that if you deport or refuse entry to fathers of these children, and the mothers are unable to work because of the cost of childcare etc, then the State would have to continue to house, feed, and educate them. But, if these ‘fathers’ are able to get the sympathy of people in government [I’m appealing that they do], and they are allowed to enter and/or remain in the State, to work and fend for their families, this would increase tax revenue to the State and reduce the burden on social welfare; better yet, the children will be brought up respectably in a family setting. This, in my opinion, is the lesser of two evils [that is if you see this as an evil in the first place].

by Samara Wed Oct 24, 2007 14:14

The previous contributor has a completely incorrect notion of the state of the law and Constitution of Ireland.

1. The electorate of Ireland voted overwhelmingly to put an end to the immigration-racket known as the "Irish baby scam". It did not explicitly or implicitly accept or legalize the residency-status of any children born before the law was changed. In fact, the residency rights of such children had already been determined by a decision of the Supreme Court which ruled that if family-reunification was the priority of the parents of these children it would have to be exercised in a country in which all the relevant family-members had a right to reside.

2. The Constitution does not in any way recognize illegal immigrants as "citizens of Ireland". They are not citizens and have never been citizens. Their legal position is that pending removal they have most of the same non-ecomomic rights as citizens - except the right to freedom of movement and, in certain cases, personal liberty (They can be detained pending removal)

3.The long and the short of it is that Ireland welcomes legal immigrants (perhaps more in proportion to her population than any other country on earth). Irish society and the Irish economy does not welcome or need asylum-cheats and other illegal immigrants. In fact, their presence undermines the social consensus upon which social harmony and acceptance of immigration depend.

4. By definition, the people who are the subject-matter of this discussion have no legal right to remain in Ireland. They have, of course, a right to family-re-unification in any country in which all the relevant family-members have a right to reside. If family re-unification is their priority and they are dedicated to raising their childern (wheresoever born) in a "conventional" family unit they can all freely return to the country to which the parents belong. They can also use their valuable skills to the benefit of the economy of that country.

Unfortunately, all this special-pleading has been rightly adjudged by the Minister for Justice as having nothing to do with the rights of children or benefit to Ireland. He has rightly decided that it is yet another attempt by cynical adults to evade the legal consequences of their illegal presence in Ireland.

Sorry to put it so uncompromisingly, but it is better to state the truth rather than fudge the issue.

by wormtongue Wed Oct 24, 2007 15:18

Samara,
for your information Ireland is nowhere near generous in her per-capita acceptance of migrants. Further Irish society seems to have been quite comfortable with welfare cheats in other economies. To equate welfare cheats with illegal migrants is to ignore the reality across Europe that construction and domestic service industries rely on employers who cheat the social security system. Take the workers out & clean your own toilet. I can think of no instance of social concensus which affords social harmony in Ireland. Perhaps an Ireland where everyone cleaned their own toilet would be harmonious?

Your words may be pretty but their meaning is vapid.

Anne,
Your support of the traditional nuclear family unit would I imagine find ears familiar with its general flavour across the world & especially the conservative US & EU. But your use of the words "murderous nihilism" as an imagined consquence of alienation of migrant children growing up without both parents betrays the worst kind of prejudice which is I fear the real source of "us" & "them". If I allow as you put it the thought that all boys and girls are "hardwired" to grow up to men and women (& thus ignore transgender issues to which this site ought at least nod) but not "good family men and women" - it logically brings me to wonder what do you mean by good family men & women?

By the paradigm which you have presented the generations of merchant shipmen or constructors of buildings of the USA or UK, or sundry other navvy types who left "these shores" could not have been good family men..,

I reckon you're both (samara & anne) on the general side of rights, their defense, their articulation & their extension. But I also feel that not too far down the road of saying exactly what you mean & want I would part company with both of you.

So I'd prefer to being somewhere else:-

Ireland is by her historical and cultural nature a racist & xenophobic society.
There is no reason for her to refuse any migrant.

by Judas Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:31

PULease,
What are we talking about here?
The country from what I hear has already granted residency to about 17,000 people based on this Scheme (which I beleive was a mistake on the part of the Government). The situation that gave rise to the Irish Born Children Scam has been taken care of by the Supreme Court in the L&O case and the Citizenship Referendum which means we are just dealing with remnants here and like Anne rightly said we need to fully instill in these children a sense that they belong here.

by PC Thu Oct 25, 2007 21:46

"Ireland is by her historical and cultural nature a racist & xenophobic society.
There is no reason for her to refuse any migrant."

I'm getting really tired of the racist card being used repeatedly to squash any debate on the immigration issue. We have been overwhelmed by immigration over the past ten years and haven't had a chance to try and catch up with the effects on our society. Irish workers are being replaced by cheaper foreign workers, our social services are being stretched beyond capacity and there is a huge amount of exploitation going on. The business lobby are quite happy to open the door wide open for cheap exploitive labour while we pay for the social costs.

Most Irish people have been open and inclusive of other nationalities and there is far more integration here than in other western countries, but we are being taken for fools by the vested interests and the PC brigade.

We opened the door to the 75 million East Europeans when 12 other countries in the EU decided not to allow them in for 7 years.

The latest proposal from Europe is another 20 million workers from Africa and Asia under the Blue Card scheme, which will bring further massive and immediate immigration

I don't know of any other country that treats immigrants better than we do or where there is more integration, and I would also suggest that the people who are most vocal about more immigrants either have something to gain from it or are in jobs
were they are protected from the 'free market'. The average Irish worker in the private sector is now in an ever more perilous position with regard to job security, wages and working conditions.

by Vinnie Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:22

You are entitled to your opinion, but some take issue with the language used in the original
post which suggests that integration is about making immigrants 'good family men and women'
that is more about cultural abuse and assimilation than recognition of difference. I mean
for god's sake most of us do not aspire to the idea of the repressive nuclear family model
based in the cultural hegemony of globalised religion and capital. Immigrants bring with
the other cultural influences, stories and survival- maybe we should start listening and not
imposing out ideology on them.

by shamus Fri Oct 26, 2007 15:08 shammy at yahoo dot co dot uk Dubli 0854057005

It's is very sad that we are treating the issue at hand with levity. This issue at hand isa family affair and the state must treat it with utmost importance. IT is an issue that affect the future of young Irish whether their parents are migrants or not is irrelevants. In as much i respect everybody opinion, we must create an egalitarian society where every Irish will be proud of. I respect the fact that any Irish child born before Jan 05 their parents must be granted the same opportunity if they wish so. I hope we sort out all this p[roblem once and for all and i know this country will gain more from allowing the parents than refusing them.Let us do away with petty sentiments and be futuristic.

by Samara Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:20

It is a universal rule of international law that family-reunification must be exercised in a country in which all the relevant family-members have a right to reside. The only common exception applies to refugees. Many countries allow genuine refugees to be joined by immediate family-members (spouses and dependant children). Ireland fully observes these norms. It applies equally to Irish people giving birth outside the EU, as it applies to Ukranians, Nigerians, and people from the USA and elsewhere.

This matter has been resolved several years ago by referendum of the people and decision of the Supreme-Court. What is actually behind this (futile) attempt to pressurize the Government is a group of male illegal-immigrants who are seeking, not family-re-unification as such, but the right to remain in Ireland for their own economic reasons. None are refugees, and if their spouses wish, they and the children they claim to have fathered can return to the country from whence the parents came, and live as a "unified" family there.

The exemptions have all been given. Conceding to this group would only encourage further illegal-immigration with further special pleading. The Minister has made it crystal-clear that he is not for turning.

And before we waste any more misplaced sympathy, If family-unification and support were so important to these men, one would have thought they would have accompanied the (often heavily pregnant) mothers of their alleged children on their journey to Ireland rather than leaving them to travel alone and then popping-up afterwards to use the alleged women and children as a pretext to avoid lawful deportation.

by buddy Fri Oct 26, 2007 20:14

well i believe samara has never gone out of ireland! there are lots of irish citizen in united states seeking same i would like to hear her response on the irish citizen out there! before i could say anything about her response!

by samara Fri Oct 26, 2007 22:05

Samara waitressed in Albany and Bakersfield some years ago.

If two Irish illegal immigrants in the USA parent a child in that country, they and their child will be deported to Ireland if the immigration services catch up with them. If an illegal Irishman fathers a child in the US born to a US citizen he will be deported, and if the parents plead "family unity", the US lady will be invited to exercise it in Ireland with her Irish boyfriend if family-unity is her wish.

While it is perfectly understandably that Irish legislators would lobby on behalf of the relatives of their constituents who are illigally in the US, it is absolutely up to the citizens of the US to decide who to allow reside in their country. Similarly, Nigerian or Ukranian legislators are free to lobby our TDs on behalf of their illegals, but again It is up to the citizens of Ireland to decide who from outside the EU can reside in Ireland.

It is also perfectly understandable that different considerations and policies might apply where on the one hand a hetrogenous country of 300 million people is considering the position of illegals from a tiny country which has traditionally been a source of immigration to that country, and on the other, a small nation-state of 4 million people targeted by illegal immigrants from a country such as Nigeria with 140 million people.

by Sina Sat Oct 27, 2007 00:07

(((Samara, I do not agree (in part) with your submissions. I am a failed asylum seeker quite alright and I would agree that some of the non-EU nationals granted residency under the revised arrangement [now known as IBC/05] were failed asylum seekers.)))

This is the part that I have the most difficulty with.

Are you unable to comprehend that Irish people find it dishonest and offensive that anyone would freely admit to abusing an essentially charitable sytem - funded by Irish people, only to add insult to injury by trying to appeal to the same peoples sense of decency to further reward that same base dishonesty?

You have gained a foothold into this country at our expense that you did not deserve.

You have planned and executed a journey to this land and lied through your teeth. Millions of your fellow citizens, vastly poorer than you could ill afford such luxury.

I suspect that many if they could, would still have the basic decency not to abuse a peaceful countries humanitarianism.

If you want your family - go home.

You have already proved that you have little to offer and have taken far more than you deserve.

by furiousfrog Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:39

'Ireland is by her historical and cultural nature a racist & xenophobic society.'

I am from abroad and one of the reasons why I came to Ireland was that I appreciate and respect Irish history and culture, and I find it totally dishonest and insulting to portray the Irish society as endemically racist and xenophobic. Hardly have I ever felt unwelcome in this country and I can’t praise the Irish people enough for their open-mindedness.

by Elizabeth Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:16

Where from abroad are ye?- I am highly interested because your sentence structure points to a typical
Irish education and of course the emphasis on Irish culture would point to an 'ownership' of that
culture, which is an illusion and a construct based in a De Valeresque Vision of Catholic unity
which is based in RC dominance. Ireland was never the Catholic of empire and of Rome but
the Catholic of Brigid and Padraig- who respected learning and what other cultures bring and
did not seek to impose an arrogance on other cultures. I suggest you read colonial poetry
and try to understand that Irish people are through Bertie Ahern now the colonisers and abusers
of other cultures and that ours is diluted and reduced to a fetish. Children from other cultures
bring gifts of language and stories , not the other way round. listen to them and not the bullshit
purveyed by a corrupt government.

by PC Sat Oct 27, 2007 19:51

“the emphasis on Irish culture would point to an 'ownership' of that
culture, which is an illusion and a construct based in a De Valeresque Vision of Catholic unity”

I suggest you ask the previous poster what s/he meant about Irish culture rather than ramming your ideas down their throat. I didn’t see any mention of RC or De Valera…nor do I understand what you mean by ownership.

“Irish people are through Bertie Ahern now the colonisers and abusers
of other cultures and that ours is diluted and reduced to a fetish”

As much as I dislike Ahern I’ve no idea what this statement is supposed to mean, except that once again we the Irish people have an insatiable appetite for putting ourselves down and being put down by arrogant intellectuals such as yourself. We are supposed to feel a collective guilt for every misdemeanour against other nationals and be manipulated by the moneyed classes into a blind acceptance of their immigration policies or face being labelled ’racists’. I just wonder how long this game will go on before the masses wake up and see how much they are being manipulated.

by samara Sat Oct 27, 2007 21:37

Dear PC,

While I will make no comment on most of what you say, I take serious issue with you labeling the author of the previous incoherent rant an "intellectual". Sorry PC, the reason you are unable to understand her is because her use of arcane language and long words is (sadly) not matched by a commensurate coherence of her thought-processes.

On a more serious note. It is fully accepted that Irish society is immeasurably enriched by the children of our legal immigrants, and of course the vast majority of our thousands of new immigrants are legal and welcome.

The main contribution of illegal immigrants (particularly asylum-abusers) is to unfairly taint immigration with illegality - thereby undermining the consensus upon which community harmony and acceptance of immigration depend.

by blaise - cafe miro Sun Oct 28, 2007 04:17

the loose term racist is used to refer to a myriad of abuses an emigrant suffers at the hands of the indigene or predominent culture of the land they are partaking of. It can be as simple as a driver saying the lady in the car who doesn't know how to drive properly must be Chinese because they have a reputation of poor driving skills. Or it can be as blatantly cruel by refusing the better applicant for the job because of their skin colour. The truth is there are few if any cultures the world over who don't trust other cultures especially ones which invade their country, taking jobs, neighbourhoods, affecting laws, etc.

There is nothing wrong with a country protecting its own. All countries wish to do this, some more than others, and I would suggest the predominently white cultures are the more accepting of emigrants than Arab, Chinese, Black countries. Ireland has no history of colonization so the theory of those colonized requiring settlement in the land of their previous conquerors doesn't hold up as far as Ireland is concerened, unlike England who had lots to answer for.

We are in a different position, having not colonized other countries and we are well entitled to protect our own, or at the very least earn the respect for our culture from emigrants who are taking advantage of our generous open door policies. Call me aloof, I don't care. The French try to protect their culture and good for them. We will always know we are in France. And they were serious colonizers.

by PC Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:20

"It is fully accepted that Irish society is immeasurably enriched by the children of our legal immigrants, and of course the vast majority of our thousands of new immigrants are legal and welcome."

Yes the vast majority are here legally but who decides which ones are legal/illegal. Going back to the last EU expansion 75 million people from relatively poor post industrial countries were allowed to come here overnight. 12 of the original 15 countries slammed their doors (which barely got a mention in our media) while Ireland, Britain and Sweden allowed them in. This is leading to huge social problems and is only going to get worse. You can't expect the population of a country to change overnight and not expect huge repercussions, regardless of race, colour, religion etc.

We now have no idea how many people are coming and going through this country, what their previous history was and what their intention is in this country. Criminal gangs are free to enter and leave the country and disappear back to their home countries. Drugs, cigarettes, sex slaves are now easily brought through our open borders. We are gradually losing more and more control over our own nation and I for one don't like it nor do I trust the politicians to do anything about it.

by samara Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:02

.

Better control over our borders is certainly necessary to minimize illegal-immigration - particularly the trafficking of sex-slaves and drugs. The Irish government, at the very least, should have the balls to demand that Irish Immigration Officials with passport checking powers should be stationed at Larne and Belfast to plug the gap through which much of this illegal activity arrives here (the border betwen the Republic and the North is neither legally or physically pluggable). The Brits would demand exactly the same if the boot were on the other foot (remember the row they had with the French over Sangatte!)

However, I cannot agree with the rest of what you say. I believe that the immigrants from the new accession-states have hugely benefited our society and economy. I also believe that their children will enrich the lives of our children - provided we act quickly to ensure integration and combat the ghettoization and the nonsense of multi-culturalism which promotes it.

by PC Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:32

The borders with Northern Ireland is largely irrelevant to my point. We are allowing huge numbers of people to legally enter the country with no background checks and no proof that they can support themselves, at least until they attain employment. Nor is there any attempts being made to stop Irish people being laid off and replaced by cheap exploitive labour.

“ I also believe that their children will enrich the lives of our children”

This poetic argument ignores the reality of the situation. Every child that comes here must be educated, provided with health care, childrens allowance and all the other services and amenities necessary for their development. This puts a huge burden on the services and the taxpayers ultimately pay for it. This drain on resources is usually returned by working and paying taxes over the long term, but wages are actually going down because of the abundance of cheap labour and many of the immigrants have no long term commitment to this country. Most are only here for a few years to accumulate enough money to return home and buy houses etc.

I’m not blaming them for wanting a better life but I am sick of the business lobby using exploitive labour, turning away Irish workers and then expecting taxpayers to pick up the tab for the social costs.

I don’t want to return to a mono-culture either, but I would like to see a sensible approach to immigration and control of our own borders, instead of the current open door policy which just centralises wealth to the minority at the top and drives down pay and working conditions.

by shamus Mon Oct 29, 2007 14:30

Ireland is one of the nation around the world that welcome immigrants, despite the fact that we need to protect our state for different reason, we have allowed their chidren, wives to be citizen of Ireland. In the nearest future most of their children are going represent the Irish state and be a good ambassador of Ireland. If their children are born before the law is changed and their childen are Irish by birth let give them that previledge.Please,we shouldn't allow paroqiallism to affect our reasoning, for the children sake they deserve to stay in Ireland to give this Irish children sense of hope,history will always be on the side of the builder.

by samara Mon Oct 29, 2007 17:13

Well "Sheamus", I can tell immediately from your syntax that you are not Irish as you pretend to be in your contribution. You could at least have the honesty not to pretend you are something you are manifestly not.

You can see from the other contributions to this discussion, that while Irish people are indeed welcoming of legal immigrants, there is little support even among Indymedia bloggers for further concessions to illegal immigrants. If the Indymedia response is so negative, you can well imagine how completely the electorate has set its face against giving into yet another group of cynical adults attempting to trade on their supposed concern for their alleged children.

Reflecting the mandate in the citizenship referendum and overwhelming public opinion, the Minister for Justice has made his position crystal-clear. It is the position in international law and the position that the mothers of the children agreed to: if family re-union was their priority, it would have to be exercised in a country in which all the relevant family-members have a right to reside. That in most cases is Nigeria, and if these men have the valuable skills they have claimed to have, they can exercise them for the benefit of Nigeria which has a far greater need of them than Ireland. It is entirely up to the women involved to decide whether their priority is Irish residency or family-reunion in Nigeria.

There is not the least tiny chance the Minister will change his mind.

by gameball Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:56

I can make out the difference between a family that has lived here for 20 or more years, and a family where a child is born in Ireland because the mother just so happens to be here at the time of birth.

Noting racist in that, surely?

Part of the whole asylum / immigration / racism aspect is that it starts with a top-down solution, involving lots of civil servants, UN officials and academics, but with no consultation with new neighbours about the incomers' cultures or preferences. A bit more effort by the powers-that-be with us natives, please.

by Timothy Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:47

Without the IBC 05 Scheme this lot would probably have been sent back and we will not be having this debate today. If they had been sent back we will in future probably have about 20,000 Irish Citizen Children born in this country but raised abroad coming back to live here in a society that will be alien to them. On getting back here they will naturally seek their own kind and we would have ended up creating the kind of Ghetto we said we do not want to create.
Now that we have avoided that scenario why then does the Government want to make it more difficult for these kids to benefit from the system? It is our duty as a people to ensure that this group of immigrants are equipped so that we can all benefit in future from what little or much they can contribute and I believe that one way we can fully tap into the potential locked up in these group is to ensure that they have as close to a normal family life as the system can permit.

by YOu Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:51

Samara,

You seem to have a Morbid hatred for Nigerians why did you just assume these people are all Nigerian

by Andrew Fri Nov 02, 2007 14:26

What do you expect from people like Samara in her thinking. Her likes belong to the ancient woman whose sense of reasoning and understanding date back to the stone age. You need to know her parental background, I mean does her parents still lives together. Let the fathers of these children be granted amnesty and let us forge ahead for better Ireland rather than having debate with the likes of Samara ( I do not like to being rude).

by PC Fri Nov 02, 2007 18:16

1. The vast majoriy of IBCs are Nigerians, that's a fact not a racist remark.

2. Whether an immigrant is legal or illegal is based solely on what our 'government' decides, and they decide based on their lobbyists and the unelected government in Brussels e.g. anyone from Poland can work here while a worker from Bulgaria can't. The citizens have no say in the matter.

3. Anyone coming in on a Join-Spouse or Family Reunification visa has to wait up to 2 years to be cleared, with full background checks, while anyone with a criminal record from Eastern Europe can just walk in.

4. Our immigration policy is fundamentally rascist because it discourages people who want to come in and live here, with a long term commitment to the country while encouraging people who have no respect or regard for this country and just want to take as much as they can and get out, while sneering at us in the meantime.

by samara Fri Nov 02, 2007 20:27

Samara doesn't have a morbid or any other type of hatred for Nigerians or Ukranians or any other ethnic or national group. It is a matter of fact that slightly more than two-thirds of these illegal-immigrants who are (with complete futility) trying to persuade the Minister to go back on the agreement reached with the mothers of these children are Nigerian men. I didn't choose their nationality. I didn't tell them to come here illegally.

Nigeria is impoverished despite having immense oil-wealth because of corruption. Corruption is a preference for stealing from your fellow-citizens over working to create wealth. Corruption is rewarding queue-jumpers. Corruption is rewarding special-pleading over legal-entitlement. When these men return to Nigeria they will bring back with them the valuable lesson that entitlement in prosperous countries is determined by law rather than special-pleading.

(Samara realizes that Ireland is not free of corruption. However, Nigerian corruption is on a completely different scale. It is vast and pervasive at every level of society. For every petro-dollar pouring into Nigeria from the West, two and a half dollars are transacted in the black-economy in the form of bribery and crime)

by Yomi Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:48

Samara,
To the land of the Shamrock and Heather we have come. In search of a living in Exile we roam. But when ever we chance to assemble together we sing of country we once called our home.
We are proud (inspite of all the Corruption and troubles back home) to be Nigerians.

by dede Tue Jan 22, 2008 06:34

samara sorry for asking you this questions you seems to know so much about illegal immigrants, 1,were you deported from the country you went to? 2,have you ever dated a nigerian man before (illegal ) 3,why did you work as a waitress and not a more better job. 4,why were you unable to make something out of your stay in the country you went to? did you chicken out ,too scared to start from the scratch?which nigerians are never afraid of.
samara i think you are just been jealous of what supposed illegal immigrant who became legal made out of their lives for example granted residency in 2005 got their houses in 2006,riding 07,08,let them bring you to their God that helped the children of isrealites in egypt. samara you aint seen nothing yet.

by samara Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35

The only time Samara worked as a waitress was when she was in the US on a student J1 visa. She entered the US legally and worked there legally for a summer before returning to Ireland to complete her studies.

Samara never cynically abused the asylum process to evade US immigration laws. Had I broken US immigration laws the US authorities would have been within their rights to deport me. The US is not my country and I have no right to be there otherwise than in accordance with the laws of the US.

The special pleading which the subject matter of this blog has no merit whatsoever. The men who are trying to get residency by using the pretext of allegedly having fathered an Irish child are looking for something which Irish fathers who haven't broken the laws of any country are not entitled to.

These alleged fathers were for the most part not even in Ireland when their alleged children were born. They only popped up later (very much later in many cases) when they thought that they could gain an advantage from their alleged children.

There is an analogy. Judge McKechnie recently ruled that an Irish father of an Irish child (where he is not married to the mother) only has guardianship rights commensurate with his record of involvement with the child.

The Minister is right in sticking to his guns, and he knows that he is supported by the vast majority of Irish people.

by Anne O'Connor Tue Jan 22, 2008 13:28

Samara,

I did not write this article because I wanted to plead for these men. I wrote this article so that we do wake up one morning lets say in about ten years time and then start wondering why the Children of these men are so angry.

by zulu Sun Jan 11, 2009 23:53

Ireland is a good country but KNOWLEDGE is hampering the nation's ability to understand a lot of issues which is causing conflict today. eg.- there was a referendum here in 2004 june on citizenship and the voters accept the then government propersal and let their own constitution has conflict within itself - in that you put in article 2 from dec. 1999 and then add a new section in article 9 on the 24 of june 2004, thus creating a situtation where children born before 2005 jan. is automatic citizen and from that point it depends on the new born child parents citizenship or residency history. the government granted parents residency status known as IRISH BORN CHILD RESIDENCY and then those same mothers who are here that gave birth to a second child in the first two year period is not entitle to irish citizenship !! and the third child she has is an irish citizen. So you have one mother three irish born children - where the first is an irish citizen, the second is not, the third is irish citizen. What balance is in that and what type of furture family is being created here ? the government need to get things on tract as this country has the full potential to be a multicultural society.

by Boer Mon Jan 12, 2009 01:43

Zulu. This country has the potential to be a multi cultural country, but the vast majority want it to be more than that, a good country to live in, not just another western state. Multiculturalism is reverse colonialism. Wrong then and wrong now.

by Zulu Mon Jan 12, 2009 23:28

BOER.
In any country the people ( nation) has the power to dictate who, what and how the country must be govern and operate. So if this beautiful Irish nation do'nt be wise and know what they (nation) are doing, you will find that it will be just the land and buildings one can see from above. No country, island, nation can survive on its own, you MUST need help and support from other citizens and also other nations to live on earth. Eg. the U.S. today if not multicultrial nation, what would happen to it ? and why so many irish nationals ( 60 thousand - correct me if i'm wrong ) are there and do'nt want come back to their country of birth ? they want to be legalized to be part of that nation.
So this nation which has the potiental to live in love peace and hormony with all different culture of people see that they cant do it alone, then it will make that change as the Americans did as a nation.

by lenny Thu Jul 01, 2010 02:21 talktolenin at yahoo dot com

i came into ireland under the family reunification scheme to join my mother and step father who had been granted ibc residency, i just turned 18 at the time but i was refused residence because i was a few months over 18. the irish immigration forced me into seeking asylum after i made it clear i wasnt in the country to be a refugee, their reason was that it was the only way i could be legal in the country. i went into the asylum process knowing fully well i had no chance of getting granted but i was determined to make a change. i enrolled to sit the irish leaving cert then i moved on to college for 2 years while my case was being processed. meanwhile i put my c.v together and started looking for jobs. with a bit of luck i would get jobs - no questions asked, then maybe 6 months down the line i would get asked for my work permit, then i would leave and start searching again till i got another one. i even worked at a place for a year and half before i was asked again. i did this thoughout my 4 and half years stay in ireland. my point is that i did not depend on the government for anything, infact i was paying alot of tax to the government. then i met someone special, fell in love, got married and now we have a son together. shes irish by the way. even after all these i still got arrested, locked up in prison for 2 days, then deported to nigeria. i have been in nigeria for a year now and i havent been able to see my wife and child. during my stay i contributed positively to my immediate communities, i played sports for my school, got involved in so many charities and was well integrated into the society. i deserve to be in ireland because it became my home after almost 5 years. can some1 tell me otherwise or help me out

by edmond Fri Jul 02, 2010 18:48

Ireland applies the exact same legal norms to family reunification as applies in Nigeria and most other countries.

Marriage to the citizen of another country does not give an automatic right to reside in the country of your spouse. You can only claim that right on a legally recognized ground (Asylum being one - as you were advised. Another is legal residence in the country of your spouse for the prerequisite length of time - usually 5 years). A similar rule applies to parentage of a child from another country. It would seem from what you say that you were unable to avail of either of these grounds. Of course you could apply to the Irish immigration authorities for leave to stay on compassionate grounds. However, again you will have a problem because Ireland, like most countries, is highly reluctant to extend this discretion to people who have come here illegally.

In any event, the international rule is that you are free to exercise 'family reunification' in any jurisdiction wherein all the members of the family have a right of residence. The obvious option is Nigeria.

If family reunification is the priority for your family you could all exercise it in Nigeria. Your spouse could apply for residency status in Nigeria for herself and her child. Presumably, because she would not have gone to Nigeria illegally, it would be granted.

by zion - non Mon Mar 21, 2011 20:55

i just wish irish in the usa could wake up one morning an dalso be made illegal and sent back home so that they too could really understand what the noon EU child and family is going through because experience is the best teach cheers. Zion

by CCTV Sat Apr 16, 2011 15:25

I look on at the Irish peoples resentment of blacks and their attempts at explaining it away as any other but pure racism , " pigswill" ( thats another word ). Just because the Irish have lived a history , that at some time had their pride( and something more serious) taken for granted by the English should not make them look around for likely victims. My family lives in Ireland though i left the country to "get a life" ,my daughter is top of her class and has always been. . . My submission , Ireland should get real, modernize and embrace fully, Nigerians are among the most intelligent people if harnessed right ,so do that and stop painting everyone with a tar brush, i lived in rural Ireland and met the most beautiful people . . . (by the way i am Nigerian)

by Childline Sat Apr 16, 2011 15:59

"i did this thoughout my 4 and half years stay in ireland. my point is that i did not depend on the government for anything, infact i was paying alot of tax to the government. then i met someone special, fell in love, got married and now we have a son together. shes irish by the way. even after all these i still got arrested, locked up in prison for 2 days, then deported to nigeria. i have been in nigeria for a year now and i havent been able to see my wife and child."

thats somewhat simplistic. You had a child irresponsibly and now the Irish state must look after both the mother and the child. Plus, the child / mother will probably need counselling / housing / schooling etc. Your minimum wage taxes won't pay for that.

Do you have any other children? I don't care where you are from or what colour you are, you are still "irresponsible" and creating future problem children who will suffer as a consequence. I'd say exactly the same to a paddy who behaved this way.

by stupid humans Sat Apr 16, 2011 16:16

"Nigerians are among the most intelligent people if harnessed right ,so do that and stop painting everyone with a tar brush"

nah, they are just as dumb and superstitious as everyone else but mabye just a little more desperate because of poverty. read this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-curs....html

not so smart eh?. and their sociopathic "handlers" are just as rotten as crooks anywhere else. perhaps even more so. The "unreported world" documentary brings it out even more clearly

You won't catch Irish girls staying in a life of prostitution because somebody in a weird hat made a few weird noises and spilt some chicken blood on them. ( However they probably believe in a man in the sky and think they are eating someones flesh at communion.)

Ignorance and Poverty are the real enemies of humanity. And we're all equally stupid / evil given the right circumstances

However Icelanders do have way more balls than Irish people..

by CCTV Sat Apr 16, 2011 18:25

"OOH " the other Irishman man, not swiming (bare chest) across the atlantic from an enclave ( Nigeria) were we live on trees and in caves could quite prepare me for this meeting . . . and at night " mr young and constantly drunk" and "miss powder nosed Irish lady" or the amount of stolen phones the junkies presented me with in one night , made me realise that we are all held captive by this thing, its all the same , and for all those who i lost on the way i, am refering to the piece about the fetish thing and prostitution! Em and lest i forget , I am a materials engineer with bias to specialist alloys, we don't build the rockets but we come quite close and yes i did work at Centra , Westmoorland to be exact and as what , yes a security man!