'Rock' the Establishment , not just 'the vote' !

by myn Tue May 01, 2007 12:55

This is strange.

In February we were being told how important it was to vote for people standing for the assembly elections, but no one did. Now, the same people are telling us not to vote at all, or rather, to go to the trouble of registering, showing up to vote, and then not having a say in who gets elected by filling in the ballot form wrong.

And even Sharon must know that not all TD's are in it for the money- Sinn Féin elected reps take the a workers wage, as does the solitary SP TD, Joe Higgins. Even if the RSF couldn't bring themselves to vote for these left-wingers, there are a plethora of candidates standing on similiar platforms- surely Sharon could mention them in her rant above?

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue May 01, 2007 13:52

Hi 'myn' !

"This is strange. In February we were being told how important it was to vote for people standing for the assembly elections, but no one did."
Important to vote for which group of people ?
And "no one" at all voted for those people , no ?

" Now, the same people are telling us not to vote at all, or rather, to go to the trouble of registering, showing up to vote, and then not having a say in who gets elected by filling in the ballot form wrong. "
Do you recognise a difference between "filling in the ballot wrong" and 'deliberately and purposely' spoiling the ballot form ?

" And even Sharon must know that not all TD's are in it for the money- Sinn Féin elected reps take the a workers wage, as does the solitary SP TD, Joe Higgins."
Yes , of course ;-) .
Meanwhile , 'expenses' cover bus-fare's only (see the appropriate link in my first post) !

"Even if the RSF couldn't bring themselves to vote for these left-wingers, there are a plethora of candidates standing on similiar platforms- surely Sharon could mention them in her rant above?"
So RSF should , in your opinion , call on people to support candidates in a Leinster House election who are running on a "similar platform" to the 'platform' which RSF does not support ?
And you describe my post as a "rant" ?

Sharon.

by utubist Tue May 01, 2007 15:02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qi2h_WCYBA

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue May 01, 2007 15:14

Hi 'utubist' !

Thank You for that - are there no depths to which they won't plunge ?

I could have used one of the slogans on that video (and still might...!) -

' A Different Kind Of Muppet'

The content is a bit on the short side - like a 'promise' from one of the featured muppets , I suppose....!

Sharon .

by madigan Tue May 01, 2007 15:19

This is an interesting "Thread". Quite amusing to hear Sinn Fein being described as left wing, (Though I suppose it depends how far right your perspective is). But to the main contributor ie) sharon, surely there must be independant candidates that a protest vote would be of more use to. Then at least the protest has a product. By simply spoiling your vote you are in effect betraying whatever system or future you aspire to.

by hmmmmmmmmmmm - (iosaf) Tue May 01, 2007 16:06

Then why don't you claim your vote & then bring it home with you?

It's like I've been watching and writing about enough close or disputed elections for long enough to realise that what really puts spanners in the works is not "abstention" nor "blank votes" nor "votes with ribbid ribbid ribbid" written on them - It's hundreds, thousands or even millions of "missing votes"

So - don't spoil it.
Just bring it home.
Laminate it. Put it in a frame (mahogany / IKEA up to you) and hang it proudly over your mantlepiece next to your 1916 proclamation, photo of JFK, representation of the Sacred Heart & whatever else you might have there (Mona Lisa smoking a spliff). Tell your neighbours - that's my vote. Remember come next election. Print a few hundred based on the design & then next time play it the other way - "phantom votes".

by Sharon. - Individual Tue May 01, 2007 18:07

Hi madigan !

It is the institution itself , madigan , and that which it purports to represent , that I object to . As it is presently constituted , that building and all that goes with it , politically , has no part to play 'in the future I aspire to' .

Hi iosaf!

I think perhaps a ballot paper with a message on it would have more impact than a missing ballot paper ?

Hi C !

I , myself , will be quite happy to return it to them with a 'note' of opposition attached !

Sharon .

by Anna Tue May 01, 2007 18:19

Your vote represents your freedom in a democratic country.

It is a crime to spoil your freedom when so many are fighting for theirs.

Bunch of champagne socialists!

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue May 01, 2007 18:52

Hi Anna !

" Your vote represents your freedom in a democratic country."
How can you equate a vote in a Leinster House election (26 counties) with that of a vote in the country that is Ireland (32 counties) ?

" It is a crime to spoil your freedom when so many are fighting for theirs."
Are those you mention fighting to have a vote in an institution which purports to style itself as 'the government ' of that country but yet only 'administers' , jurisdictionally , for part of said country ?

" Bunch of champagne socialists!"
No , thank you . This hot weather brings out the cider urge in me ;-) !

Sharon .

by anna Tue May 01, 2007 18:58

You have the luxury to reject your right to vote silly little girl.

Lots of people around the world have no vote.

Women fought and died for their vote.

Irish republicans died to give you a ROI vote.

Irish soldiers died in WW1 and WW2 to protect your freedom, neutral or not.

You always have the option of voting Sinn Fein if its an all Ireland you are seeking.

Or vote FG if you want to persue unity through the EU

Spoiling votes is just a stupid cowardly way out of making an informed choice.

by Jacqueilne Fallon Tue May 01, 2007 19:48

Well, I will definitely be spoiling my vote for the following reasons:

I, a peaceful unarmed Irish citizen, can't even attend a commemoration in peace to remember those who died and sacrificed their lives for the freedom of Ireland; nor can I stand peacefully in a picket with a placard without being: abused, photographed, surveilled, followed home, interrogated, harassed and treated like a pile of shite by menacing members of the Leinster House armed SDU of An Garda Síochána.

I can’t put up posters either, without being threatened with arrest, nor can any member of the general public put up any poster around the city without prior approval from the authorities first.

If you don't believe the above, well I'll use the words of that infamous Fianna Fáil politician 'Pee Flynn' in a different context:

“You should try it yourself some time, it's not easy!”

No, it sure, isn't easy living in this sort of a 'democracy', particularly, when you can't even afford to own one fuckin house and assholes like him are going on about how hard it is to keep a house and housekeeper in Brussels and another one here plus staff - bollocks to that!

‘Voting is for the rich’ (as my Dad always said), the only people in this country at present who benefits from voting are those who can afford to pay the politicians, I can’t afford to pay Bertie or Enda, I can barely afford by domestic bills and rent, I'm no use to them, nor have they ever given me the fucking time of day. So, no, I don't care very much for this sort of a ‘democracy’, I'll know what I'll be writing on my voting card.

by iosaf Tue May 01, 2007 20:40

1) on the "preciousness of franchise"
As an anarchist (I choose to be an anarchist as anarchism is the only political course of action which my education, experience, personal association [club,lodge,society memberships & subscriptions to journals etc.] and intellect can sustain without my being an utter hypocrite) I would adhere to the First international of socialists mid-19th century declaration that "voting only legitimises the status quo" as regards the Irish General Election. I write "I would" because since I am no longer resident in the state of my birth I have been disenfranchised like many other (approaching one million) Irish citizens who have chosen to live in other states of the EU. So I can't vote in this "all inclusive election·. To argue that "spoiling a vote" insults the memory of those who fought for extension of franchise, to blacks, to catholics, to jews, to women, to all regardless of gender, class, property ownership, educational attainment or creed - is to be completely ignorant of the work and oaths of the 1st international, the US civil rights movement, the extension of franchise in Ireland's history, the work of the Suffragetes & not least the fact that many who contribute to Irish society as workers, taxpayers, residents (not to dwell on their added responsibilities as raising Irish families) are not amongst the barely 3 million plus electorate called to vote
If the Irish people are so terribly serious and sincere about the worth of their franchise, then let them extend it to all their EU Irish citizens and all those who live in the Irish state honouring their responsibilities as citizens without the rights of same rather than lame suggestions of offering 16 year olds the vote. For those who always gurgle "no tax no representation" I'd just refer to the collected speeches of O Connell on Catholic Emancipation. In the last 5 years in the EU non-resident voting has reflected with a margin of 5-7% error the voting pattern of the home constituents. Non-resident voters of Spain, France, Germany, Italy proving to be just a tiny bit "more left wing" than their family members at home. The Irish might like to copy the example of states such as Chile where voting is compulsory and only those citizens who may prove they are beyond one day's travel of their polling office may pass Election time without paying a fine.

2) on the impact of "spoiling a vote"
In election counts the amount of "spoiled votes" rarely tops 2%, it is generally much much lower. Most invited to spoil their votes in fact at the last moment still put an "x" next to same name - which if it causes any upset is generally put down to variables such as the "weather" or "malconent".
At end it is the person who counts the vote who is "impacted upon". One individual in one parish hall gets to put the ballot papers with "ribbid ribbid ribbid" or "raise the hunger strikers from the dead" or "you fking fecking Cnting bollox" in one little pile.

3) in societies with a very clear culture of abstention, "non votes" do count. In the last 3 years in Spain with such a tradition - we have seen in Catalonia two succesful actions taken in the courts (by anarchists) to declare any attempt by the government (be it Catalan or Spanish) to canvass for a vote is illegal and unconstitutional. Thus they can't tell the public to vote "yes" to Europe or "yes" to their "estatuts". We rubbed salt into that wound one year later by getting the Supreme Court in Spain to recognise it is unconstitutional for the government to ask people to vote. full stop.
Ireland however, does not have such a culture. Nor does the UK. In fact of the northern European nation states only the Netherlands and Belgium (with similar obligations on the citizen to vote as Chile) consider "abstention or blank voting" to be worthy of serious comment.

4) In several key election processes (and let me remind you I charted some of the most important elections and votes of the last 5 years) the emergence of "lost votes" or "missing ballots" reached key importance. which springs to mind was the recount of votes which saw Manuel Fraga of Galicia lose his home rule elections thus ending the longest political career in European history. Significantly the few hundred missing votes had come from Galicians living in South America.

Believe me - in a state where to be quite honest - not many of the current party leaders may put their hand on normally where you would expect a heart to be & swear "My seat is safe". Indeed quite a few times the Irish have almost cut off a party leader at the general hustings to the delight of all of us. If you go to the polling station - I honestly tell you bringing your vote home with you will put more of a spanner in the works than writing your message on it. Let's compromise. You bring your ballot paper home "for me" and you squeeze a piece of paper of similar appearance in the ballot box with everything you want to say to the vote counter.

everyone happy?

POssibly not. there are those who will now champion electronic voting systems with no option of spoiling or casting a blank ballot. Then we have to go back to cutting the fuses at your local school hall. Great to see so many politicians remember where the local school hall is.....all the same.

by mary Tue May 01, 2007 21:47

Then get involved in politics and have somebody vote for you and your views.

Spoiling votes is a mugs game.

by d'other Tue May 01, 2007 22:01

Actually what I did alongside spoiling my vote at the last election was slip about 50 political leaflets into the ballot box alongside my spoiled slip. When the ballot box was distributed I'm sure the scattering of leaflets ended up in a fair few hands and passed around the counters. If nothing else it advertised some event or other and pushed some people in the direction of a website or other.

Maybe this time people could slip some Indymedia.ie flyers into the boxes?

by mary Tue May 01, 2007 22:16

you really believe that your leaflets had any influence?

they got binned and ended up in a landfill contributing to global warming along with the fuel consumption you contributed in travelling to the polling booth.

use politics to change the world for the good not the bad.

use your vote wisely

by Sharon D. Tue May 01, 2007 22:56

Mary, you actually haven't put forward a single argument in favour of voting in this election, you've just insulted anybody who trys to put forward a counter argument. It sounds like you really don't have any argument, just a mantra.

And, if you think people are innocent fools because their leaflets will be ignored, then perhaps you can tell us why a vote won't be ignored. I seem to remember that last time out we voted for a platform of investment in public health and other services? That's certainly what they told us we were voting for.

by Sharon. - Individual . Tue May 01, 2007 23:30

(Not wishing to ignore all those that have commented [above] , but will just reply to anna for now)

Hi anna !

"You have the luxury to reject your right to vote silly little girl."
Yet you object to me exercising that right ? Which of us is being "silly" now ?

" Lots of people around the world have no vote."
...and "lots" more have a vote that , when cast , is ignored .

" Women fought and died for their vote."
No women that I support fought or died to obtain a vote for me in that particular institution .

" Irish republicans died to give you a ROI vote."
What "Irish republican" died fighting for a State administration ? (You 'silly little girl' you...!)

" Irish soldiers died in WW1 and WW2 to protect your freedom, neutral or not."
'Died for the Freedom of small nations' , you mean ? Has this 'small nation' obtained its freedom yet ?

" You always have the option of voting Sinn Fein if its an all Ireland you are seeking."
Would that be the same (P) 'Sinn Fein' that are presently administering Westminster's writ in a section of this country ?

" Or vote FG if you want to persue unity through the EU "
Yes , you're right , of course . The EU has been pushing hard for Irish re-unification for 34 years now.....

"Spoiling votes is just a stupid cowardly way out of making an informed choice."
Not so . Actually making the decision to deliberately spoil a vote is that persons choice , and long may it remain so .

Sharon .

by d'other Wed May 02, 2007 01:15

God no Mary, I am under no allusion that dumping in some leaflets had any effect on anyone. I just think its a more entertaining way of engaging with the electoral process than sticking a number beside a name and then walking on home, head up your arse, full of the prospects of change only for everything to stay the same.

Jesus - politics really happens outside of the vote, even from a dumb-ass social democratic point of view - the vote is only the end result of a particular form of politics. If you really think the vote is that important then stop moaning at us on Indymedia.ie and get out there and up the bleeding pole sticking some gobshites face seven foot up for all to see. That's doing electoral politics and trying to change it, if that is where your vision of change lies.

Personally Mary - I and others - have no time for this circus, we probably "do politics" a lot more than yourself we just don't confine it to the parade of clowns that comes along every couple of years. We are active in our unions, colleges, running this site. doing political newspapers and more. We produce change through our actions, we don't fucking think it will come about through ticking off some multiple choice options in a market survey.

Seriously wouldn't all ye faithful voters have more of a change to influence government policy by getting out there and stuck into some of the endless focus groups and polls that go on to set their policy? Ticking one set of boxes is as good as another.

by MARY Wed May 02, 2007 10:18

If you read my posts I am advising you to put your head above the water and ask the electorate to vote for your (not yet well formed )views.

I have politicians that Im more than happy to vote for.

Because you are too lazy or cowardly to democratically make changes for the common good you make a selfish 'me' statement by spoiling your vote.

You waste public money by negitavely engaging in a public process and you burden the environment with your flyers that have to be dumped and your car fumes transporting you to make your hoax vote.

If you havent a candidate that your conscience will let you vote for then stand for election yourself.

Then at least all of the cowardly vote spoilers will have an icon to vote for.

Student politics is a training ground for the real thing not just a past time for undergrads with time on their hands.

by gh life Wed May 02, 2007 10:39

Sharon, why weren't you asking people to spoil their votes in the recent Northern assembly elections? Isn't it a bit hypocritical to change your tune for the Leinster House ballot?

by Enumerator - None Wed May 02, 2007 12:26

I've done the count a number of times, local and national elections.

Spoiled votes, however they are spoiled, or whatever is written on them, are examined, adjudicated on and put aside.

No element of protest is noted and nobody cares however witty, vulgar or stupid any message might appear on the the ballot paper.

by Rev Malcolm X - Church of Marx Wed May 02, 2007 13:18

we should be encouraging people to get out and vote to put these obnoxious bastards of elected politicians from the P. D. FF out of government. we should be naming advisors who encourage Ahern to lie to the tribunal. remember these bastards are the ones who are responsible for the closure of the independent centre for inquiry into political financial corruption
according to journalists a senior advisor called Peelo worked with Ahern to draft his statement to the tribunal. Vote Left Vote Red Vote Left Sinn Fein Vote Independent Left candidates

by Rev Malcolm X - Church of Marx Wed May 02, 2007 13:50

elections 2007
People need to get out and vote. to put them out of government
People who believe in class struggle need to have a look at what is ,and what will take place during these elections. We have very few left political journalists working in the media in the south of Ireland
Mc Dowell witch-hunt against journalists who dared to point the finger at the corrupt political establishment. I recall Suzanne Breen once saying in the court room during anti bin charges campaign, that the six counties may be rotten. the 26 county state is as corrupt, let us not forget what Mc Dowell his company of friends along with Sam Smyth, Irish Independent done to the independent Centre for Public Inquiry. We are now been told that Haughey advisor, Peelo was advising Ahern in drafting his statement to the tribunal. Again we had to listen to Beverly Cooper Flynn foul mouthing on radio this morning

get out and vote. boot these bastards out of government
Vote Left. Vote Independent left candidates. vote Aengus o Snodaigh Sinn Fein. who has not backed down from confronting Mc Dowell

by Engel's Angels Wed May 02, 2007 13:59

Vote for all the candidates who supported Shell to Sea- Independents, Sinn Féin, Green Party, Socialist Party, SWP, and some Labour.

Don't vote Fianna Fáil, Fianna Gael or Labour candidates who were quiet on this issue. Show them that there is a price to pay for giving a blank cheque to Shell. Beverly Flynn and Michael Ring and the rest should be run out of Mayo...

But whatever happens, use your vote.

by Your Mother Wed May 02, 2007 14:24

What a truly moronic idea. Intentional vote spoiling is the laziest possible form of protest anyone could possibly engage in. Get a life and maybe actually get involved in politics, then maybe you'd actually have an idea of how demanding it is!

by The Eskimo - S2S Wed May 02, 2007 14:41

Get your facts in order - Michael Ring is not a member of the party that has given birth to the great corrib gas controversy. Michael Ring has suppourted Shell to Sea.

by Sharon . - Individual . Wed May 02, 2007 14:46

Hi 'gh life' !
" Sharon, why weren't you asking people to spoil their votes in the recent Northern assembly elections? Isn't it a bit hypocritical to change your tune for the Leinster House ballot? "
No , not at all : there were what I considered decent candidates running for that assembly and , whilst I myself have no time whatsoever for that bogus 'parliament' I knew that those particular candidates were hoping to get elected in order to expose that talking-shop for the fraud it is . In my opinion , there are no such candidates running in the up-coming Leinster House election .

Hi Enumerator !

" I've done the count a number of times, local and national elections.
Spoiled votes, however they are spoiled, or whatever is written on them, are examined, adjudicated on and put aside.
No element of protest is noted and nobody cares however witty, vulgar or stupid any message might appear on the the ballot paper. "
If enough people were to purposely spoil their vote on the day then , I believe , the action would be 'noted' , or at least that action would be relayed to the 'powers-that-be' . However, the fact that I will be able to "note" to myself that I have done so will be reward enough !

Hi Rev Malcolm X !
" we should be encouraging people to get out and vote to put these obnoxious bastards of elected politicians from the P. D. FF out of government. we should be naming advisors who encourage Ahern to lie to the tribunal. remember these bastards are the ones who are responsible for the closure of the independent centre for inquiry into political financial corruption
according to journalists a senior advisor called Peelo worked with Ahern to draft his statement to the tribunal. Vote Left Vote Red Vote Left Sinn Fein Vote Independent Left candidates "
Put these "obnoxious bastards" out and replace them with a fresh batch of same !
Not with my vote , thanks anyway .

Sharon .

by Sharon . - Individual . Wed May 02, 2007 14:54

Hi Ma !

" What a truly moronic idea. Intentional vote spoiling is the laziest possible form of protest anyone could possibly engage in. Get a life and maybe actually get involved in politics, then maybe you'd actually have an idea of how demanding it is! "

I would have thought that not even bothering to go to the polling station to claim your vote would have won your vote (!) in that particular contest ?

Sharon .

by d'other Wed May 02, 2007 16:25

You really are so blind to someone else's point of view that there is really little point engaging in a dialog with you.

It's clear you are unwilling to even try and understand the reasons many solid political activists underline their refusal to participate in electoralism with and instead resort abuse like calling them "children."

I honestly pity anyone who ever ends up seating next to you at a party. Oh and just to cut through your assumptions again - I tend to find cycling/walking to my local polling stations the easiest option, I mean usually they are fuck all distance away.

by bigchiefrandomchaos - irish monster raving loony party Thu May 03, 2007 01:38

it is loony party policy to have 'none of the above' placed on the ballot paper - that and floating houses

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu May 03, 2007 07:59

Hi bigchiefrandomchaos !

" it is loony party policy to have 'none of the above' placed on the ballot paper - that and floating houses "

I like the 'None of the above' idea : I suspect it might very well be the most ticked box on the ballot !

Regarding your second suggestion : we practically have that already - depending on how close the day of the election is , houses 'float' between being liable for stamp duty , or not !

Sharon .

by Dub Thu May 03, 2007 08:30

I think if there is no decent campaigner with a decent record running you should spoil your vote. I will spoil my vote in this election. I'll write a slogan like "Pay the Nurses!" or "No Deportations!" or something like that. I disagree with anarchists on voting. In capitalism exploitation happens due to the position of capitalists owning capital. Exploitation under capitalism does not happen when we vote for people. If I lived in Dublin West I'd vote for Joe Higgins #1. For the last 10 years Joe Higgins has proved the anarchists wrong about their ultra-left position on voting. He has lived on the average wage, he's never had bogus expences, He has consistently assisted working class people fightback (Bin tax, GAMA, Irish Ferries).

by bigchiefrandomchaos - irish monster raving loony party Thu May 03, 2007 08:37

the none of the above idea would work as we would be able to reject all of the candidates put forward ,in whatever constituency ,and that would then force a new election in that constituency . New candidates would then be put forward. repeat until we get preferable candidates who have, at least to some point , recognised the will of the people.
an idea so crazy it just might work
that and penalty points for sneezing while driving

by madigan Thu May 03, 2007 09:08

I like that idea. Every ballot paper must have "None of the above" on it. If that is the majority vote then the election is deemed void and a new set of candidates must be found. Alternativly the parties could put forward an alternative legally binding manifesto to find popular support and an acceptable representative.

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu May 03, 2007 09:17

Hi Dub !

The more of us that write a 'spoiling' message on our ballot paper (political prisoners, nurses , deportations etc) the better chance there will be in having our protest recognised and , hopefully , made public .
Then , perhaps , acted on ?

Hi again bigchiefrandomchaos !

You almost had me 'sold' on the 'None of the above' idea , Sir - then your mask slipped to reveal you for what you truly are : just another anti-sneezing fascist .
Damn it ! And I was so close to subscribing to your newsletter.....
;-)

Sharon .

by Dub Thu May 03, 2007 09:27

As I said if there is no decent left winger running I spoil my vote. I have done so before and will on 24 May. The people that fought for the right to vote never wanted the vote so that conservative politicians get elected. Where I disagree is where someone like joe Higgins is running. If I lived in Dublin West I'd vote for him. That is an effective vote.

by Times Thu May 03, 2007 11:26

"In my opinion , there are no such candidates running in the up-coming Leinster House election ."

So IN YOUR OPINION everyone should spoil their votes.

The point is that it's not a principle for you- it's just an opportunistic attempt to join in with the nihilist anarchists and claim that that anyone who doesn't vote or doesn't fill in the ballot properly is somehow in agreement with you.

Republican Sinn Fein have reached neew depths here, asking people to scribble on the ballot paper, because they haven't got the likes of Gerry McGeough http://ie.indymedia.org/article/81242 to vote for.

Sad

by Goblin Thu May 03, 2007 11:39

I cant spoil my vote guys. I have Brid Smith and Joan Collins to vote for in DSC even ó Snodaigh has a good head on his shoulders and wouldn't be a wasted vote and I support the single issue candidate Roisin Healys stand on the Childrens hospital.

If too many votes are spoiled the PDs are back in because there is no way their supporters or FFs will make a political statement like that. Theres too much money to be made.

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu May 03, 2007 12:28

Hi Dub !

" What's your point? "
I would have considered that I made my "point" clear enough by now - read the above posts , Dub , and if you still have a problem let me know .

Hi Times !

" So IN YOUR OPINION everyone should spoil their votes. "
No . Just those of us who are not satisfied with the present political set-up .
And have you got a problem with a female expressing her " OPINION " ?
Why the capital letters ?

" The point is that it's not a principle for you- it's just an opportunistic attempt to join in with the nihilist anarchists and claim that that anyone who doesn't vote or doesn't fill in the ballot properly is somehow in agreement with you."
I don't know any "nihilist anarchists" nor do I know their position in relation to this issue , and have , on this thread , suggested that people should claim their voting paper (I never did suggest that people should not claim their vote , as you have implied) and , furthermore , I have also suggested that those of a mind to should purposely spoil their ballot paper by writing a message on it ('Release All Political Prisoners' / ' Scrap The Double Bin-Tax' / 'Health In Crisis' / 'None Of The Above [re the list of candidates named on the ballot paper]') - I have made it clear that I am not making an attempt to claim as 'supporters' those who mistakingly fail to fill in their ballot paper 'properly' , a charge you have levelled against me .

" Republican Sinn Fein have reached neew depths here, asking people to scribble on the ballot paper, because they haven't got the likes of Gerry McGeough http://ie.indymedia.org/article/81242 to vote for."
"Scribble" ? No . Purposely write a message , yes ! Your own words betray your mindset in relation to this issue , Sir . And rest assured that if Mr McGeough or Mr O Bradaigh himself was canvassing for a seat in that fraud of an institution then my position would be as it is now .

"Sad"
Your poor attempt to muddy the waters regarding this issue is 'sad' , yes .

Sharon.

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu May 03, 2007 12:36

.....is paved with good intentions !

Hi Goblin !

" Theres too much money to be made."
I am sure you know the adage, Goblin - "They went in to change the system..... "

Speaking on my own behalf , I have no faith in any of them !

Sharon .

by Patrick Henry Thu May 03, 2007 13:23

Sharon I remember well the times when $inn Feign put across the same arguments, sometimes violently, as you are now and look where they have ended up, running a puppet Government under the leadership of Paisley.
Spoiling votes won't create change it only prolongs the political life of corrupt Politicians because if you don't vote you will give them a free run. Leinster House is only a building just as an insane asylum is only a building. However not everyone in an insane asylum is insane very few are, but can we say the same for Political institutions like Leinster House or Stormont? No, for in these places the lunatics have taken over the asylum. It is up to us to create a cure and we can only do that by building from the ground up a truly democratic party were the views of the grassroots override the dictates of the leadership.
Sharon the potential is out there among the disillusioned Republicans left scratching their arses wondering what to do next. It's time to start building for the future, time to bring on board the next generation instead of encouraging them to waste their lives in jail, it's time to begin building a truly Republican party instead of taking us back to the past tactics of the former Republican party, Sinn Fein.

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu May 03, 2007 13:57

Hi Patrick Henry !

" Sharon I remember well the times when $inn Feign put across the same arguments, sometimes violently, as you are now and look where they have ended up, running a puppet Government under the leadership of Paisley."
I remember those times too , Patrick , which is one of the reasons that I will not support those who claim their intention to be 'to change the system from the inside' .
That particular 'system' has insulated itself from that threat .

" Spoiling votes won't create change it only prolongs the political life of corrupt Politicians because if you don't vote you will give them a free run."
The "them" in question are , in my opinion (and I hope you have no apparent objection to me stating my opinion?) not only those in situ but also those wanting to be ! It is , I believe , the very system that those wannabes want to get their hands on that is corrupt .

" Leinster House is only a building just as an insane asylum is only a building. However not everyone in an insane asylum is insane very few are, but can we say the same for Political institutions like Leinster House or Stormont? No, for in these places the lunatics have taken over the asylum."
Should we put a 'better class' of (wannabe) 'lunatic' in charge , then ?
I don't think so .

" It is up to us to create a cure and we can only do that by building from the ground up a truly democratic party were the views of the grassroots override the dictates of the leadership."
But not by using the discarded and faulty 'building blocks' , Patrick , which is all that the Leinster House system has to offer .

" Sharon the potential is out there among the disillusioned Republicans left scratching their arses wondering what to do next. It's time to start building for the future, time to bring on board the next generation instead of encouraging them to waste their lives in jail, it's time to begin building a truly Republican party instead of taking us back to the past tactics of the former Republican party, Sinn Fein."
Agreed .

Sharon .

by Dave Thu May 03, 2007 14:21

If you spoil your vote the only people who'll see your "Release All Political Prisoners" message or whatever you choose to write on it, will be the polling staff who count the votes. And to everyone else your vote will just show up as another spoilt vote. And people will just assume it was because you couldn't fill out your form properly, drawing no conclusions as to any political message it is trying to convey.

So wouldn't you rather vote for the candidate who is closest to your political views?

by bigchiefrandomchaos - irish monster raving loony party Thu May 03, 2007 14:32

Hi Sharon

"You almost had me 'sold' on the 'None of the above' idea , Sir - then your mask slipped to reveal you for what you truly are : just another anti-sneezing fascist ."

me? fascist ? - ouch tha hurts - I'l have you know that I am not against sneezing in itself - just sneezing in the wrong hands -
sneezing doesnt hurt people - people hurt people - imagine hutling down the m1 with your mobile in one hand and your diet coke in the other and then being selfish enough to sneeze - this is wrong and has to be stopped

Also maybe you should stand yourself - it doesnt cost any money to have your name on the ballot - no deposit to be paid anymore - flood the system with disillusioned candidates
thats what Im doing and it feels nice

by Patrick Henry Thu May 03, 2007 14:48

Sharon, firstly I take umbrage at the fact that you believe that I would have an objection to you or anyone else stating your opinion. I am not in the Leadership of $inn Feign, thank God.
Yes the system is corrupt, but it is those within it who are corrupting it, the 'made its' and the 'wannabes'. So Sharon are we to stand outside shouting for change while they remain inside with the windows shut, ignoring us, while carving up the cake for themselves.
We should work towards building a party with politicians who can go into that system and begin upsetting the apple cart without becoming greedy at the first sight of the cake which is power and it's benefits to them.
Bring the people behind you by building a party were the person on the street has a say on the performance of a local politician and if that politician isn't working for the benefits of the people then the people can remove them by demanding that the party takes action against that individual and they are replaced by someone who knows that corruption will not be tolerated.
Put the cat among the pigeons, Sharon and you will see the system fall apart, but it takes time, time not to be wasted on gimmicks.

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu May 03, 2007 20:41

Hi Dave !

" If you spoil your vote the only people who'll see your "Release All Political Prisoners" message or whatever you choose to write on it, will be the polling staff who count the votes."
What if , Dave (and I know it is a Big 'if'!) thousands of people around the state wrote the same messages on their ballots ? Whether those messages read 'Release All Political Prisoners' or 'None Of The Above' or 'Bin The Double Bin-Tax' etc , news of that would be made public , I believe , even if only by a failed candidate bearing a grudge or a talkative poll counter or perhaps even a journalist in the right place at the right time . And even if it were not to be made public , the personal satisfaction of having played a part in denying a wannabe career politician the kick-start (or continuance) for/in their 'career' in the 'Big House' is a bonus.

" And to everyone else your vote will just show up as another spoilt vote. And people will just assume it was because you couldn't fill out your form properly, drawing no conclusions as to any political message it is trying to convey. "
I myself will know otherwise , as will all those who follow suit . I have never voluntarily contributed one penny or cent , or one moment of my time , to the career of any Leinster House 'made man' and , again speaking personally , Dave , it would pain me to do so .

"So wouldn't you rather vote for the candidate who is closest to your political views? "
Any candidate willing to leech of the public in that institution is in no way "close" to my political views .

Hi again bigchiefrandomchaos !

" me? fascist ? - ouch that hurts "
'Stage Two' is going to really hurt you , Big Chief - I have a large bag of used tissues here with your name on them ... ;-) !

" sneezing doesnt hurt people - people hurt people - imagine hutling down the m1 with your mobile in one hand and your diet coke in the other and then being selfish enough to sneeze - this is wrong and has to be stopped "
How the hell do you know about my addiction to Diet Coke ?
And my fondness for hurtling... ?
;-)

" Also maybe you should stand yourself - it doesnt cost any money to have your name on the ballot - no deposit to be paid anymore - flood the system with disillusioned candidates
thats what Im doing and it feels nice "
Perhaps some day , Big Chief - when the children are not so young , when the bills are not so big (and not so red!) and when that most precious of all commodities - time- is not so scarce ! Until then , I hope to carry-on doing what little I can with the small spanner I have !

Hi Patrick Henry !

" Sharon, firstly I take umbrage at the fact that you believe that I would have an objection to you or anyone else stating your opinion. I am not in the Leadership of $inn Feign, thank God."
Sorry , Patrick - that backfired on me : that 'opinion' comment of mine was used by me in an attempt to 'flush out' a previous poster who did , apparently , have an issue with me having an opinion . It was not aimed at you . Apologises if you took offence.

" Yes the system is corrupt, but it is those within it who are corrupting it, the 'made its' and the 'wannabes'. So Sharon are we to stand outside shouting for change while they remain inside with the windows shut, ignoring us, while carving up the cake for themselves."
Can I suggest that we stop 'putting them inside' , then ?

" We should work towards building a party with politicians who can go into that system and begin upsetting the apple cart without becoming greedy at the first sight of the cake which is power and it's benefits to them. "
Can human nature be overcome ?

" Bring the people behind you by building a party were the person on the street has a say on the performance of a local politician and if that politician isn't working for the benefits of the people then the people can remove them by demanding that the party takes action against that individual and they are replaced by someone who knows that corruption will not be tolerated."
I agree one-hundred per-cent with you , Patrick , that such a political party is badly needed .

"Put the cat among the pigeons, Sharon and you will see the system fall apart, but it takes time, time not to be wasted on gimmicks."
I view the "gimmick" in relation to this issue as removing one set of corrupt lazy mé féiners and having your vote used to justify their replacement by a similar set (of a slightly different political 'colour') of corrupt lazy mé féiners . And I believe that will happen as a result of votes cast on May 24 next , but with no help from me .

Sharon .

(Post Script : I will most probably not have access to an internet-enabled computer for a few days , beginning in a couple of hours from now . This will be one of my last posts on this or any other Forum until I get sorted , but I will check back as soon as possible and reply as best I can to any comments which are posted for me . The '1169..' Blog has been set to update automatically in the morning . Either that or I have boxed the ears of our 'Junior' to ensure that he does it...
The Administrators/Moderators on this Forum are to be thanked for not 'pulling the thread' , as happened a 'Spoil It!' thread I started on another Forum . Thank You , Indymedia staff !
Slán go fóill anois. )

by bigchiefrandomchaos - irish monster raving loony party Thu May 03, 2007 22:36

Hi Sharon
'Stage Two' is going to really hurt you , Big Chief - I have a large bag of used tissues here with your name on them ... ;-) !

Eeeeeuw!! I think I might have to rethink that one - however I will have a think and see I can come up with some ideas for big bags of used tissues - some sort of renewable fuel or recyclable glue -
or maybe I'l just bring it along to McDrool on election night and present it to him - I cant think of a nicer thing to give to the bastard

by mary Fri May 04, 2007 01:02

You're losing it...

Go on, vote. You know you'd love to if you were old enough...

by Christy Fri May 04, 2007 01:19

Stay home and edit your Bebo page or your blog - leave us to run the country...

by Sharon . - Individual . Fri May 04, 2007 08:49

(....a quick , last post - for now !)

HI bigchiefrandomchaos !

'McDrool' and a big bag of soggy used tissue . How will you distinguish one from the other ?
;-)

HI mary !

It is people like you that would like people like me to "lose it" , Mary , as we highlight the fact that some of our gender are capable of having our own political opinions . You come across as an uninspiring female who has been brow-beaten into conforming with the 'norms' you have surrounded yourself with - strike back , woman , even if it is only within the confines of the polling booth once in every few years . Go on , girl . You know you'd love to if you were courageous enough....

Hi Christy !

What "country" is it that you intend to assist in 'running' by using your vote on May 24th next , Christy ?
Is it that 'kingdom' that you and Mary live in ?

Sharon.

by wageslave Fri May 04, 2007 16:39

Sharon was paid by FF and the PD's to come here and talk gullible lefties out of voting (as they are likely to vote for left candidates).

Please everyone, just ignore her and vote for a leftie candidate.

Sure the stupid party politics framework is paralysing real change but only if NOBODY AT ALL came out to vote would the system fall down and alas, there are always lots of stupid people who believe that change is possible within this system or that so and so will save them a few quid on their mortgage etc. such is human nature.

So at least have a few lefties in there who can slow down our race to self destruction, even if you know that the system is perpetuating global capitalism which is really at the root of all our problems. I'm afraid the vain hope that all humans in this society will act in an enlightened manner all at once is wishful thinking to put it kindly. The best we can hope for is a leftie rainbow coalition who might possibly slow our inevitable fate which is to fuck up the country beyond repair.

The only things that will bring real change in our country and the rest of the world are not elections but firstly the price of oil going to 200 dollars a barrel, which might hopefully collapse global capitalism, and secondly population control on a large scale (an issue which nobody will touch however necessary it gets).By the time these things start to happen it may be too late for our world. It's going to get quite ugly folks.

We are a stupid fucked up nasty selfish species, not long out of the trees. Stop daydreaming, Get over it, ignore sharon and vote for a left or green candidate

by Use your Vote - Don't spoil it Sat May 05, 2007 11:03

It's a democratic right to vote & we must be proud of that.
By spoiling your votes you are telling us to Vote in the same people again!!
It's like the nurses, they are protesting and at the same ttime having the right wing politicians with them on the picket line. This does not make intellignet sense. Bet the nurses will be telling us to vote F/G & Labour in their hour of need.

Will anyone put money on ithat t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If there are any Independents vote them When the council elections come up then the very councellors will have tothink Who voted Who, then the truth might prevail.
Then we all have a say in every day llife Don't let a minor few make decisions for the majority of us........

by Sharon . - Individual Mon May 07, 2007 21:49

(Hi All - ....am back from my (enforced!) absence !)

Hi Wageslave !

" sharon is a right wing shill trying to keep indymedia lefties from voting . Sharon was paid by FF and the PD's to come here and talk gullible lefties out of voting (as they are likely to vote for left candidates). "

WOW !
"Right-wing shrill" ?
I have truly been called many names over the years , 'Wageslave' , both in the streets and on websites/noticeboards etc , but never "right-wing" !
A 'shrill' , yes - I have been called that before , usually preceded by the comment " Oh SHUT UP you commie bitch..." or similar !
But perhaps if I do sound "shrill" it is mostly because so many are silent ?
As for me being in the employ of Fianna Fail or the Progressive Democrats.......!
Absurd ! You do your 'YES ! PLEASE VOTE' cause and call absolutely no favours by suggesting that those taking the opposite viewpoint are really some sort of 'double agent' ! In doing so , you have belittled your own case in relation to this issue - I thought the rest of your post was good in parts , but just couldn't take it serious because of the 'double agent' bit .
You spoiled it for yourself .

" Please everyone, just ignore her and vote for a leftie candidate. "
How long has there been "lefty " politicians in Leinster House now , 'Wageslave' ?
Or are they 'double agents' , too .... ?

Hi Use your Vote !

" It's a democratic right to vote & we must be proud of that."
....and be proud that we still have the right to spoil that vote if we so choose .

" By spoiling your votes you are telling us to Vote in the same people again!! "
I am sorry , but I don't follow you here : how , by most decidedly not voting for "the same people again" are we , in your opinion , "voting in the same people again" ? I presume that was a typo on your part ?

" It's like the nurses, they are protesting and at the same ttime having the right wing politicians with them on the picket line. This does not make intellignet sense. Bet the nurses will be telling us to vote F/G & Labour in their hour of need.
Will anyone put money on ithat t!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

NO !!!!!!!!!!!!! ..... not me , anyway !
Because that is exactly how this corrupt system which you maintain with your vote actually works . Are you really surprised at that ?

" If there are any Independents vote them When the council elections come up then the very councellors will have tothink Who voted Who, then the truth might prevail.
Then we all have a say in every day llife Don't let a minor few make decisions for the majority of us........"
A Council election is different than the State election which is the topic of this thread , so you have a point there , yes .

Sharon .

by wageslave Tue May 08, 2007 02:55

I called you a "shill" not "shrill" but perhaps both apply :)

I don't actually believe you were paid. Sadly there are always enough silly people about willing to do the devils work for free. :(

I don't believe in the current system but I'm not so naive that I think everyone has the good sense to see through the charade and "not vote" in unison. Unless such a protest is made by everyone in unison, it is pointless. And of course it won't be. So the reality is that your suggestion would only cause a reduction in possible leftie votes. An even worse state of affairs.

The only way to end the pointless charade that is party politics is some sort of a large scale coup and maybe a nice guy fawkes moment. That would require group participation and courage. Our programming is too thorough to allow that kind of stuff these days. We'd all much prefer to go shopping for shite we don't need. Sad but there you go. There are no more heroes, and we pissed away what they fought for so perhaps we deserve our time poor money slavery and our nice new landlords with their irish accents.

Only panic and fear of imminent death or starvation due to global warming and the oil running low has the potential to cause humans to ditch their greed driven way of life (likely much too late). until then we will continue to be for the most part, stupid self centred greed driven idiots and "wageslaves". So stupid in fact that many people will still vote for FF and the PDs after all that has happened, despite seeing how well the american model they follow works in that society. And thats with oil being sold in dollars and a huge military. Alas we have no such free lunch here and the FCA just don't cut it :)

So be a good girl and vote left / green sharon. Its the only tiny opportunity left to us to annoy our masters slightly in our so called democracy. Seems a shame to waste it.

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue May 08, 2007 08:42

Hi again 'Wageslave' !

" I don't actually believe you were paid. "
Oh put your glasses on , you silly slave , and read your earlier post ie 'Sharon is paid by Fianna Fail and the Progressive Democrats...' .
Not as much 'backing down' as 'backing out' . And you will need your glasses for that ! ;-)

" Sadly there are always enough silly people about willing to do the devils work for free. :( "
Yes , indeed . Encouraging people to continue supporting a system which you yourself have described as 'fuc**d-up' is surely just such a job !

The rest of your post is mostly in support of 'lefty' politicians , and how more of same are needed in Leinster House . Can you answer my earlier question , please , and tell me how long there have been such 'lefty' politicians in that institution , and then tell me how they have managed to use said institution to bring pressure to bear on Westminster to announce a date for British political and military withdrawal from these shores , how they have kept the price of a family home within the reach of the 'wageslaved' family , how they have secured a workable health service for the voters and how they have ensured that the road system is befitting a State as rich as this one is .
It is the actual system itself which is 'fuc**d-up' , Sir , and , with respect , it is people like you that will ensure it stays so . You are convinced that a 'bad shell' can be saved by 'decent filling' . I don't share your optimism !
And , by the way , regarding your comment that " We'd all much prefer to go shopping for shite we don't need. Sad but there you go... " : speak for yourself . Some of us realise that there is only so much 'sh**e' that a person can 'stomach' before they cop-on to the damage they are doing to themselves .

So be a good boy and stop being such a 'good buyer' and wasting your 'money' .

Sharon.

by Right v Left Tue May 08, 2007 22:21

Thants funny: Isn't F/Gael & Labour Greens the same as F/Fail and PD's anyway> By voting any of them you are voting all of them!!
A IHuman Right Politicans vote like Socialists & Independents and Sinn Fein (well I thought s/fein was to the left not too sure about that )I think they are, then the boat would really rock. Wouldn't our rich musiciaans & singers living abroad have to pay a little tax!back home
Correct us ifwe are wrong with reasons

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue May 08, 2007 23:25

Hi Right v Left !

" A IHuman Right Politicans vote like Socialists & Independents and Sinn Fein (well I thought s/fein was to the left not too sure about that )I think they are, then the boat would really rock......... Correct us ifwe are wrong with reasons ."

Is there not already such a 'combination' in Leinster House ?

Sharon.

by pseudonym Tue May 15, 2007 09:32

Spoiling your vote is just a cop out.

All it does is ensure that you don't have say.

People who fought for the vote DID fight for your vote, Sharon. They fought for the future generations.

If you are not happy with the current regime, do something to change it.

Spoiling your vote is naive and as useless as stamping your foot and crying. Something a child might do, but an adult knows to try to fix it.

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue May 15, 2007 10:01

Hi pseudonym !

" Spoiling your vote is just a cop out."
It is my way of protesting against their corruption and against the corruption of the Leinster House institution itself .
Would you agree that a 'None Of The Above' option should be included on the ballot form , or would you dismiss same , too , as a "cop out" ?

" All it does is ensure that you don't have say."
Whereas voting means you have a 'say' in which particular group cheats you ?

"People who fought for the vote DID fight for your vote, Sharon. They fought for the future generations."
No-one fought on my behalf to obtain a vote for me in a corrupt 'half country' , run by those that see no shame in abusing the political position they have obtained for their own personal financial gain . I want no part in that.

"If you are not happy with the current regime, do something to change it. "
It is the actual system itself that I take issue with in the main , not only those ('the regime') that administer it .

" Spoiling your vote is naive and as useless as stamping your foot and crying. Something a child might do, but an adult knows to try to fix it. "
"Adults" like those who run this scandalous system , you mean ?
Have they not proved they are incapable of 'fixing' the wrongs and injustices they 'govern' over ?
Continuing to do that which is "naive and useless" is "something a child might do" . That is why I will spoil my vote on 24 May next .

Sharon .

by Sharon. - Individual . Tue May 22, 2007 14:02

.....of even bothering to wonder what the Brits think of the idea !

But I did . And I have -

http://www.partnershipsonline.org.uk/index.cfm?fuseacti...=2480

If it's good enough for them , well , then...

Sharon.

A Guaranteed Result !

by Sharon . - Individual . Wed May 23, 2007 16:27

.......the general impression (as voiced on the following link -
http://www.irishelection.com/05/rock-the-vote-is-an-abs...lure/ ) seems to be that the 'dudes' who propogated , financed and publicised the 'Rock The Vote' campaign have lost the war!

In my opinion , that was always going to be the outcome : the 'professionals' behind that campaign come from the 'establishment' , be it music , comedy or the media and looked at the issue from just such a perspective ie an establishment figure trying to be 'cool with the kidz' . But 'the kidz' seen them coming .....

Plus - the 'product' itself (politics in Leinster House) has been so degraded by the friends of those same 'professionals' that any attempt to transform it into a 'cool' issue was a lost cause from the start , offering only some dodgy publicity to the 'RTV Dudes' and , in some of their cases , offering them the possibility that the campaign might just take them from 'e' to 'd' list .

Not to my mind , it hasn't ... !

Sharon.

'RTV' campaign hits Rock Bottom.... !

by Thomas The Walking Head - The Ultimate Comment Wed May 23, 2007 17:29

I have no objection in principle to the idea of spoiling a vote (although I will be voting, for whom I have not yet decided though) as an acceptable act, but I can't work out how it is a useful form of protest. My understanding is that people who accidentally spoil their vote are counted along with those who do it deliberately, and that ballots are shredded with little communication between counters (I expect a lot of them roll their eyes when they see messages written on them). Surely it would be better to hold a demonstration on election day or put your time and energy into a publicity campaign about your perceived dissatisfaction with the political system?

by wageslave Wed May 23, 2007 18:27

because it IS a useless and invisible form of protest. Sharon is just being silly. Perhaps we do need a "none of the above" option on the ballot paper but meanwhile make the best of a bad situation and vote for a left / green candidate

by Sharon . - Individual . Wed May 23, 2007 19:42

......that the present system has failed !

Hi Thomas !

" I have no objection in principle to the idea of spoiling a vote (although I will be voting, for whom I have not yet decided though) as an acceptable act, but I can't work out how it is a useful form of protest. "
It is useful for the person who decides to spoil their vote because that person knows they are not adding to the political woes inflicted on the citizens by a corrupt system.

" My understanding is that people who accidentally spoil their vote are counted along with those who do it deliberately, and that ballots are shredded with little communication between counters (I expect a lot of them roll their eyes when they see messages written on them). "
I , myself , 'roll my eyes' when a well-meaning voter complains , weeks/months after casting their vote , that they never intended for the individual/party they voted for to support/implement a particular piece of legislation . And , unfortunately , it is not a case of 'once bitten,twice shy' as the same mistake is repeated at the next election !
As I have already said in this thread , Thomas , I am not as concerned with what happens the ballot after I spoil it as I am about spoiling same in the first place as my own personal protest against this corrupt system .

" Surely it would be better to hold a demonstration on election day or put your time and energy into a publicity campaign about your perceived dissatisfaction with the political system? "
'Vote spoilers' on a public demonstration/protest march might not be prepared to risk losing their anonymity by 'going public' . I myself would not be bothered by a 'Shell'-like garda shoving a digital camera up to my face , but I can well understand how others might feel intimidated by that action .
And ,in my own little way , I do try to run "a publicity campaign (against) the political system.." whenever I can , not just at election time.
Does the fact that you haven't noticed mean I have failed.... :-( ?

Hi Wageslave !
" because it IS a useless and invisible form of protest."
Not 'useless' , no . Replacing 'tweedledum' with 'tweedledee' now , and reversing that situation in a few years time , is useless . Refusing to do so is not.
Nor is it an "invisible form of protest" as the person, themself , will know they have done the right thing .

"Sharon is just being silly."
"Silly" is being continually fooled by the same type of people , complaining about it , then doing it all over again a few years later !
'Fool me once shame on you , fool me twice shame on me' .

"Perhaps we do need a "none of the above" option on the ballot paper...."
I think we do , yes . But I don't think the 'powers that be' will agree .

... but meanwhile make the best of a bad situation and vote for a left / green candidate ."
How long now have we had 'left/green' politicians in Leinster House , Wageslave ?
In my opinion it is not so much the calibre of the person as it is the nature of the political system as it is now constituted . Supposed 'good filling' in a bad shell doesn't last long , does it ?

Sharon .

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu May 24, 2007 13:18

One less vote to be used against me -

Sharon.

Spoiled for a purpose!

Not for this 'voter' , thanks ....

That gets my vote !

by Sharon . - Individual . Mon Jun 18, 2007 19:03

Hi !

Some of the contributors on this thread attempted to advise me , and others , that to deliberately spoil your vote was not the best manner by which to show dis-satisfaction with the conduct of 'the powers-that-be' , and suggested - strongly so , in some cases - that a vote for the Green Party and/or 'Independents' was the best method to show such dis-satisfaction .

Could I ask how those contributors feel now ?

Thanks ,

Sharon.

by Feudal castrato Mon Jun 18, 2007 20:27

I think most people would agree that it is a pity more people didn't vote for joe higgins!!

If a lot more people had voted green then they wouldn't have been so weak going into talks

Also if the greens had more votes then the FG/Lab/Green coalition would have been a possibility.

Sharon, while patiently awaiting the revolution, and with a clear conscience, will have to live under the same FF/PD neo-con government as the rest of us.

Personally, while waiting for the revolution, I would have preferred having something a little more human. Hope the inner warm glow of smug self satisfaction warms you when you can't afford heating oil.

Any chance of your revolution happening in 5 years time sha' ?

oh, and does "na-na na-na-na" still feel good so many years after you leave the playground?

Get real.

Your revolution relies on the political awareness and courage of the general public. Both in terribly short supply. Well I've dealt a lot with the general public. And I'd like to say this: Fuck the general public they are cowardly and thick as pigshit!! all they care about is buying shite, Man United, Big Brother and paris hiltons bony ass. Even giving 'em a vote is like giving a dog a hammer.

Stop acting as if the working classes are some deeply wise and all knowing but powerless political and world affairs analysts who are just biding their time for your revolution. The fact is they are largely dumb assholes who have trouble adding up their grocery bill and using the vcr. And the Elite classes KNOW this and indeed RELY on it to get re-elected to carry on looting the place.

What masquerades as our democracy is a lie. But to change that we need a generation of james connollys not a bunch of sad hedonistic BB watchers and alcoholics. But that's what we have right now. So forget it sharon. Like it or not the system stinks but is very stable, and getting more so. It is powered by the ignorance, gullibility, stupidity, cowardice and malleability of the masses. And as energy sources go, thats a pretty renewable and abundant one.

You will probably have to wait for oil to go to $200 a barrel before anything remotely significant happens to change society. Hopefully it won't all be too fucked up and too late for our kids by then.

As one wag commented during the election, "What we really need is a change of electorate"

True democracy has a high price but we prefer free shit here in ireland.

by Cl Mon Jun 18, 2007 20:37

it's not often I agree with postings on indymedia but the post by Feudal castrato comes close, apart from his suggestion "What masquerades as our democracy is a lie"
it is democracy but the people are pawns.

by Bird Mon Jun 18, 2007 21:50

Sharon CI
What do you think of flynn.?
Would this mean we the tax payer will be paying for an increase in our T.V.Licencefor her.
any comments

by bird Mon Jun 18, 2007 22:06

James Whale is on Talksport now on radio i. He will be discussing S.Rushtie and his Knighthood. Worth listening to

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue Jun 19, 2007 00:22

Hi Feudal!

My , you are angry , aren't you ? Your above post is all over the place and could not by any stretch of the imagination be considered to be , as stated by you , "in reply" to the question I asked ie 'how do those that advised a vote for the Green Party and/or independents feel now ?'
I did not ask that question in a "na na na na na" manner , as you believe , nor in a "...smug self satisfaction.." manner :
rather , I am curious as to whether those who advised such a vote will be as quick to do so again the next time ?
When you calm down , Sir , we can discuss this issue constructively , if you wish , but not now in your current state of mind ie you have stated that not enough of what you referred to as "... largely dumb assholes who have trouble adding up their grocery bill and using the vcr....." voted for the Green Party , thereby suggesting that if enough/more "assholes" had supported the Green Party , then "assholes" , once there is enough of them , would be in the right regarding this issue !
Sheep have "assholes" , too , Feudal.

Hi Flynn !

I am of the opinion that we , the taxpayer , will be paying for an increase in the licence fee regardless of whether M/S Cooper/Flynn pays up or not .
Perhaps her father can sell one or more of his three houses to help his daughter out of her financial woe ?
Or at least cut back on the number of house-keepers ......

Sharon .