Irish Judges on Trial

by Louise Gaffney Tue Mar 13, 2007 17:29

A Clare man recieved a three year suspended sentence for raping a woman after breaking into her home.
Judge Paul Carney said he would have to ask himself whehter he would be "comfortable" to imprison this young man who had said that what he done "was out of charachter" and that he "deeply regretted" what happened. The thirty two year old mother of three children was in court but could not hear the sentence as she suffers significant hearing problems. The rapist later flicked ciggerate ash in her face on the way home according to information she supplied to the liveline radio programme today.

by Louise Gaffney Tue Mar 13, 2007 17:38

All women AND men who are shocked by this violation of justice by this public official and the courts system should I suggest march from the GPO to the Four Courts on Friday lunch time and make it a late lunch. Me out of the country from wed but come on sisters and brothers ! Make your voices heard at the green dome, that is supposed to be the seat of justice in our country.

by ME Tue Mar 13, 2007 17:56

I totally agree with your idea. The green dome is where the REAL gangsters are.

People should make themselves more familiar with THEIR Courts and see first hand how decent People are sold down the river by members of the British Accreditaion Registry ( commonly know as ......................the BAR) .

We, the People , should , 'for the reacord', lodge (how apt.) a complaint to the Chief Justice and request Carney's removal - and his (murray) if he does nothing about it (registered Letter of course). Ideally a signed Petition in one registered Letter for Chief mason Murray.

We want these OUT of OUR Courts NOW.

by Anarchy Rules Tue Mar 13, 2007 23:16

One would think that if a criminal were from a good family, that a good example would mitigate the judgement and make the sentence more severe.

On the other hand, if one came from a 'bad' family, that one would have learned from a bad example, and thus at sentencing this would result in a lesser punishment.

Unfortunately law and logic are seldom bed fellows in a courtroom. Unfortunately too, a stenographer in a courtroom, is a very rare occurance. All that can be examined in the vast majority of court cases are the judge's orders (for the most part, put together by the registrar sometime after the judgement itself) and whatever the media has bothered to turn up to and bothered to print.

We don't have an open court system. We have a system of red tape. Make no mistake here, the red tape takes precedence over everything, including the law. Procedural tripe outweighs both evidence and the concept and practice of justice.

What's the answer?

Mandtory sentencing?

Doesn't that go to the opposite extreme, by removing mitigating factors altogether.

Another problem are the legal 'professionals.' Most barristers meet their clients briefly for the first time on the day their clent's case comes to court. All pertinant points are fed to them, second hand style by solicitors, who for the most part have only a rudimentary understanding of the facts surrounding their clients. In Irish courts, their are a few bright sparks in the ranks of solicitors and barristers, who run circles around their contemporaries. This is not down to their abundance of skill either, but due to the lack of it in those whom they run circles around.

I guess this latest witch hunt by the media will result in McDowell having his way with regard to mandatory sentencing - despite this type of sentencing existing already withing many of the anti-drug laws. And despite it not working and despite judges for the most part ignoring it. The media will have gotten their pound of flesh and will crow on about their results and how effective they are, until something else crops up and round and round they go. Nobody will ask a victim for his or her opinion. The victims, as always, will remain victims and be forgotten.

Despite the judiciary, the government, the police and their respective and cumulative shite effort - Somewhere close to 98 - 99% of rapes never even see the inside of a courtroom.

The judiciary often speak of the 'court's business,' and they aint lying. They'd much rather busy themselves with motoring offences - which is a great little earner. Free legal aid? Not a problem - let the taxpayer foot those heftly legal bills. Let the game continue as usual - barrister meets the suspect driving offender a few minutes before the hearing.

Barrister: 'He's pleading guilty m'lord however, he comes from a good home my Lord, he's quit drinking and has sold the car in question.'

Judge: 'Very good - €400 fine and not allowed to drive for three months (see you back here in four months)'

Barrister: 'My Lord, I wish to apply for my costs.'

Judge: 'Granted.'

Barrister: 'May it please the court.'

It don't please anyone else. It's not designed to.

There's the crime that nobody's dealing with. Justice is truly blind in Ireland, and so too are the rest of us - we allow it. It's not an election issue and it never will be.

by Angry Man Tue Mar 13, 2007 23:47

Dear Anarchy Rules. That is a totally accurate description of the court/legal game. The silent majority never see it close up, so the boat does not get rocked so the game goes on.

BUT, Last Summer, when Supreme Court took away the protection of underage/children and were set to release Mr A. there was the closest thing I have ever seen to an insurrection in the country. Women power/ Live-line/people power shook the country and the government. There was visible panic in the Dail and among polititions that week-end. In the aftermath, the polititions blamed the judges and the judges sulked by not going to the Ministers Christmas party.

The anger today on Live-line and I expect tomorrow aswell is very like that of last June. The legal/judicial system is vulnerable on women protection and child protection and gang crime. It is a big political issue. It will be raised on door steps. This election will be fought on issues the polititions don't want to fight on like the health Service, local government/planning, garda/judicial corruption. A revolution is on the cards. Sinn Fein and the green party and independants will benefit.

by ex-apophenia - .:. it's not about money or handshakes it's about attitude. Wed Mar 14, 2007 00:06

Michael Mc Dowell is the worst minister for Justice this state has ever had. & don't forget Mary Harney the worst minister for Health this state ever had - I long have wondered why aren't people honest - there is no "good family" or "bad family" save the Holy Family who couldn't pay the rent & went as refugees into Egypt to avoid the authorities & then later lost their 12 year old in the Temple.
But what there is instead are class barriers - many of them. Ireland & Britain are the most class-ridden societies on earth. It compounds their socio-economic disparity which are also the widest in the EU. The situation in Ireland though has not received any treatment in contrast to the meagre attempts by some of the Old Labour governments to open up "opportunities" & at least offer a free school dinner & books. In Ireland those of the "not good families" were and are "scum". So let's be honest & use the "S" word. We're all scum. nous sommes tout racaille as they say in French when facing down Sarkozy on pretty much the same thing. The arbitrary decisions in Irish court rooms, just as the horrific conditions in Irish penal institutions, just as the impunity of the Garda holding cell "corrective beating" will not change until the regime changes. The regime doesn't just change with a new government- The regime is the whole structure of power. You desperately need to change it. I know you know. But I have to say it all the time. Find common ground among those who wish change the regime on the political level & those others who concentrate their efforts on non-governmental social policies. All of you work to change that regime. & identifying (in very simple terms) those who hold the "patent" of the regime - Mc Dowell & Harney - means finding revulsion amongst the masses who perhaps don't understand they are scum but at least know they're not celtic tigers on the piggy's back.

by the digger Wed Mar 14, 2007 08:53

Before you attempt to comment on a subject perhaps you should do some rudimentary research first.

Such as - for example - the fact that the vast majority of driving offences do not attract legal aid entitlements. The entitlement to legal aid is generally grounded on the possibility or otherwise of a custodial scentance being imposed.

Nearly all road traffice summons -with the exception of perhaps dangerous driving - do not qualify for legal aid. The vast majority of these cases - again - do not use a barrister. Nice little earner footed by the tax payer? Utter rubbish.

Still, make up facts to suit your theories (such as they are) eh?

by C. Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:24

The legal establishment have been opposed to Mickey for quite a period.

it hit a head when he blamed them for an 'open door' prison policy and leniency.
If he is returned he would probably institute an US policy of naming his judges.
Now , looking at the disastrous Dept of Justice, that would not be a good thing at all.

In terms of judges who are outstanding: Mc Guinness and Laffoy have had the balls
to take on the corrupt legislation.

The Judge acts within legislation and interprets the law, that is all.
the barrister/solicitor is a whole other stroy and needs separate reporting.

The rape sentence debacle needs root and branch repform- including looking at why Justice
Carney attempted to change the criminality of rape and reduce sentencing policy by
moving the trials from criminal to district court.

The lack of /abdication of duty in care by the state within the courts and police
is ongoing and advocate groups are working incredibly hard with victims
to alleviate the stresses.

In terms of prisons- thats a bleeding scandal!

The government has consistently failed ordinary people in favour of the
wealthy classes- yet people are asking questions about their treatment
and lobbying the issues- which is good.

by Anarchy Rules Wed Mar 14, 2007 15:12

Perhaps digger, you should attend court sometime.

The article that is being commented on is about 'good families.'

My example was about a person from a 'good family.'

My example was about a drink driving crime, which can attract a custodial sentence and can attract and accumulate free legal aid.

You do however have a point, the vast majority of driving offences do not infer a custodial sentence and do not qualify for free legal aid - but they do remain nice little earners. However in this, folks from rich families (good families) who can afford a barrister or a solicitor who will tell the judge on their behalves, that they are from 'good families.' On the other hand poorer folk, who cannot afford legal representation and who wouldn't dream of insulting the court by going into the quality of their families, tend to get larger fines and longer suspensions.

Now I been somewhat polite in answering what's been put before me. Digger has suggested that the vast majority of driving offences do not attract a custodial sentence. Whilst this is true, it is misleading. The vast majority of driving offences, do not end up in court in the first place, fines are paid, and sins are purged (sometimes penalty points are incurred too). I'd still say that a majority of charges that end up in the courts do not involve a custodial sentence as a possibility. However, I'd not consider using the term 'vast' to describe this majority. I will say however, that the vast majority of driving offences do not end with a prison sentence, but with an exchange of money.

I urge people to attend our courts, to see the quality of justice and mercy on display

by the digger Wed Mar 14, 2007 15:30

Wasn't addressing the original article. I was addressing this statement of fact of yours:

>They'd much rather busy themselves with motoring offences - which is a great little earner<

Which is nonsense, fankly, as I've set out above. The problem is, there are plenty of issues about the court process which require attention - secrecy in the family law courts, lack of direct access to barristers, haphazard scentancing policies etc - which require attention.

Creating and then knocking down straw men acts as a hinderence to this, not a help.

by John Wed Mar 14, 2007 19:15

Funny how the only time the Left criticise judges for handing out lenient sentences is when its for the crime of rape. For all other crimes the Left usually moan that sentences are too severe and want a reduction in the prison population. Clearly the sentences in this case were far far too lenient. The scumbag should have been locked away for years. But, in Ireland today the judiciary hand out ridiculously lenient sentences for all sorts of crimes. They do so because they are too left-liberal not because they are too right-conservative. If they were the latter, they'd hand out far tougher sentences generally. Thanks to the liberal judiciary, Ireland has one of the lowest prison populations in the world. In Ireland today are are 3,000 people in prison from a population of 4 million. In England+Wales there are currently 85,000 in prison from a population of 50 million. Their prison population is almost twice ours per capita. There's clearly an opening in Ireland today for a political movement that demands much tougher sentences for all sorts of criminals, not just rapists, but muggers, robbers and thugs of all hues. I can't see a left-liberal party leading such a movement. If Mr. McDowell is reading this, one idea I'd like to see him put in his election manifesto is for judges to be directly elected by the people at 4-year intervals rather than being appointed. This is done in many States in the U.S. If it were done in Ireland, any judge who handed out such a lenient sentence to a rapist as this one has would get his come-uppance when he went up for election.

by Martin Black Thu Mar 15, 2007 15:12

There is a truly perverse factor in Paul Carney's ruling. The trauma and social and legal contexts of rape is such that most victims do not report the crime. As Anarchy Rules says, 98 to 99 per cent of cases do not see the inside of a courtroom. In this case the woman took her courage in her hands and followed all procedure and - public servant ,Paul Carney's sentence was the result.

McDowell is now, today, in the process of putting it on the statute book that killing a burglar who enters a home will be a justified in law. ( And the plaudits are flowing in from radio station listeners) very nice one for the election Mickey Mac ! This morning a Monaghan judge said he if he had a gun he would "blow the head off "any one entering his home to steal. He went on to jail a guy for three months for robbing a 79 year old woman. NB No violence involved, not that that factor justifies what he done.

Back to Carney, he has totally downgraded the crime of rape by his ruling. I think Angry Man's idea of putting it to the TDs and senators to define in law what constitutes a "good family" GF has merit. Others here have refered to the GF factor at work in the law courts I witnessed a guy admit in open court that he knowingly committed a criminal act involving the robbery of thousands of euro and was given "community service". The GF factor was adverted to by the judge when so sentencing.

Solidarity with the woman in Clare and all rape victims. Makes me feel, as Bob Dylan says "ashamed to live in a land where justice is a game".

by laughing man Thu Mar 15, 2007 20:32

The penny has dropped folks, the judges are doing nixers running comedy acts!

Curtin started it off last year.with the warrant....... Ha Ha

Finnegan carried it on with the €10,000 fine for "the cat done it your honour" remark.......... Ha Ha Ha

Brennan says he'll blow the head off of any intruder in his house.................Ha Ha Ha

and then Carney comes along and tells us we can break into his house go into his bedroom and rape his wife or daughter and he will let us off home on the next train!.........Ha Ha Ha Ha

Its a Paddy Irishman joke.....Get It?

Lets all go into court rooms all over the country and laugh ourselves silly.

by laughing man Thu Mar 15, 2007 21:12

Sorry folks, that should have been Judge Sean mcBride that said he'd "blow the head off", not Brennan.

Brennan was in Fr Ted.....Ha Ha Ha

by Anarchy Rules Thu Mar 15, 2007 21:13

I think you've made a very interesting point laughing man.

However it was not Judge Brennan who made the 'shotgun remark.' It was Judge Seán McBride. McBride is a well known 'kidder' in the judiciary. Two interesting events to do with him spring to mind immediately. A few months ago he threatened to send a foreigner home in a 'fish box.' Couple of months before that - and this beggars belief - he sentenced a young man, who after one or ten pints, urinated in a public place - to walking up and down the main street whilst wearing a sandwitch board that proclaimed him to be a person who urinated in public. Course after a public outcry he had to reverse his sentence.

I could go on and on. But I think the point be made.

by lady Fri Mar 16, 2007 13:33

I was also raped by a friend of the superintendent in my home and as I went to the garda station to report this I saw him come out with the super and they were laughing. Instead of taking down details I was locked up until all evidence had disappeared. The gardai then took me to a gp who gave me a morning after pill and an examination into the damage inflicted was done with gardai present as they told the gp they did not want me to escape. I went to other garda stations where I was refused assistance in the matter. The gardai came to the house several times breaking in. I tried to hide but they would usually find me. They wanted the sheet with the semen stain on it. I cannot live in the house as it is not safe. I am now homeless.

by the digger Fri Mar 16, 2007 14:07

That sounds - literally - unbelieveable. Did you consult a solicitor or doctor to progress matters? What Garda Station was it?

by lady Fri Mar 16, 2007 14:17

I tried but justice is absent in the area. These people will never go on trail.

by Angry Man Fri Mar 16, 2007 17:04

Lady, your experience was horrible. Can we take it from the level of control exerted by Gardai, that you were young but ot living at home? Also was it recent or in the past.

If it was recent then you should go straight to tell your story at a rape crisis centre and get their advice. The new Garda Inspectorate should be informed of your story. Do you still have the sheet?

Take care of yourself

by Willie Idle Sat Mar 17, 2007 03:54

Given that every second day there appears to be a story in the papers concerning members of the gardai involved in every kind of illegal activity including collusion, blatent cover ups and evidence tampering, i would say this ladies story is very plausable indeed.!!

by lady Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:51

many women do not have the courage to come forward because men like you say it is plausible indeed!
It happened and i have proof. There even is a witness to the aftermath.
This beast told a guy what he had done.
What proof do u seek? plausible? And what do you do? Are you a rapist trying to mellow people down.
Why would i make it all up? How could anyone make up a story like that?

by nite owl Sun Mar 18, 2007 16:35

lady.your reply was well put and to the point.as one of the male speciesi cannot understand how a convicted rapist could be released and then travel on the same train as victim.hopefully the dpp will appeal the decision and encourage all victims to come forward.mary shannon deserves all the credit for for exposing this beast.shame on the judge paul carney for his shameful decision.

by Cowardly Tom - Sacked by Siptu Sun Mar 18, 2007 20:45

From up here in the North it seems that you've got the wrong Judges trying cases.

The shotgun friendly 'blow the head of intruders' judge should be hearing Rape Cases