Galway Atlantic Homecare picketed by Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign activists

by TD - IPSC Sat Feb 03, 2007 20:24

more !

by moi Sun Feb 04, 2007 16:08

good protest but in fairness dump the star of david with the red line through it. It may not be meant as antisemiticism but could be read as such.

by PaddyK Mon Feb 05, 2007 00:46

Thanks,

You people have made me feel much better today. Thanks for your commitment.

Atlantic Homecare will have to remove these products if they want to continue doing business here, or else they can move to Gaza.
Keep the israeli flag flying with the red line through it. Red for Blood spilt ...Red for Warning of Danger . It's a good image.

No Israeli flags in Ireland.

by TD - IPSC Mon Feb 05, 2007 04:39

"moi," your suggestion that Galway IPSC "dump the star of david with the red line through it" as "It may not be meant as antisemiticism but could be read as such" is under active and serious consideration at the moment.

To boot, after urgent phone calls to Cosantoiri Siochana, Irish Anti-War Movement and Stop the War Coalition that these two images could be "read" as Anti-Lockheedism, Anti- Raytheonism, whatever, they have taken your concerns on board and, shortly, expect an outbreak of self- censoring political correctness of the H5N1 strain.

by moi Mon Feb 05, 2007 09:11

If you think anti-semitism and anti-raytheonism are equilivant and hence a'ok, then you've got a serious problem in the Galway IPSC, my friend. A serious problem. What does the IPSC elsewhere think of this?

by David L - IPSC Mon Feb 05, 2007 09:42

Hi Moi,

Israeli flag or Star of David? That’s the question. Without doubt, the Galway group were drawing the line through the Israeli flag, which is a legitimate thing to do on a protest where you’re boycotting Israeli goods.

On the other hand, I take your point that drawing a line through a religious symbol such as the Star of David can be seen as antisemitic. I think there’s no reason to lay ourselves open to such accusations – and so take what you were saying as useful and constructive criticism.

by Malachy Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:33

Moi, you're missing the point. They are anti-semitic.
Why else their fixation with Israel despite the outrageous human rights abuses committed by other countries in the region? They're Jews you see.

by Duine Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:03

Mo ghraidhn sibh, a lucht agóide.
Is cróga bhur n-aighneas i gcoinne na h-éagóra.
Seasaim libh.

by moi Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:03

I think this is simply misguided imagery but it is open to interpretation as antisemitic. I am concerned though by the comments by Galway IPSC member TD above because he appears not to understand that antisemitism is utterly unacceptable. This is not something to make light of. Or maybe TD thinks it's ok to be antisemitic? PaddyK certainly appears to be veering in that direction.

People need to be absolutely clear that being Pro-Palestine does not involve antisemitism. Our problem is with Zionism.

by Eamon Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:37

Exactly the same misguided imagery was used in 1930s Germany in front of Jewish owned shops and shops selling Jewish goods. It doesn't surprise me though, having already seen you people on Shop Street wielding placards denouncing the "Israeli Blood Feast in Cana"., thus evoking the centurys old Jewish blood libel.

by Molly Bloom - anti-war Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:40

Apart from the fact that anti-semitic imagery is unacceptable, there is also the fact that failing to make the distinction properly between the Israeli state human rights abuses and Jews is playing into the hands of those who are now accusing the left of regressive anti-semitism (someone like Nick Cohen would pounce on something like this, and he'd have a point, too). Unfortunately, the anti-semitism of the left has become a mantra of the right-wing neo-liberals, whose specialty is attributing characteristics to the left in general that are only displayed by a small minority. Galway IPSC has a recent history of putting appallingly anti-semitic images up on Indymedia (I have to admit, one of them made me choke, I was so taken aback and when I went back to look later it was thankfully gone). Apart from the ethical problems, it also creates huge credibility problems, which is a pity, because the IPSC does extremely good work.

A strong critic of Israel and well-known veteran anti-war activitst, Rabbi Michael Lerner (whom some neo-liberals have referred to as a 'self-hating Jew' because of his support for Palestinians) , was banned from speaking at ANSWER rallies in the US because he dared to critique anti-semitism in the anti-war movement. Let's hope similar scenarios don't develop in Ireland.

by Malachy Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:59

Cork IPSC aren't trailing far behind Molly. They posted a yellow star list of Jews!

by TD - IPSC Mon Feb 05, 2007 14:09

"moi," and fellow travellers ! : Another "Anti-Semitic" image for you, as it were or perhaps, just perhaps, an ad-bust of Israel's Blood Diamond industry and its funding of horrific war crimes or then again it might just be a gratuitous exercise in alienating the Alien or raising the copyright hackles of Ridley Scott?.

On page 8 of today's Irish Examiner in an article by Kathryn Hayes titled "Blood up over war diamonds" she states that ; "A campaign to boycott Israeli "blood diamonds" has been launched by a group established to raise awareness of the international plight of the Palestinian people. Global Palestinian Solidarity, a coalition of Palestinian Solidarity organisations from around the world, has activated a campaign which is aimed at highlighting the extent of Israeli involvement in the blood diamond business" and "According to a spokesperson for the Ireland-Palestinian Solidarity Campaign (IPSC), Israel claims to be the worlds top exporter of diamonds. In 2005, Israeli gemstone exports were valued at over $16 billion and comprised 30% of total manufacturing exports,
explained the spokesperson. The significance of this figure lay in the Israeli Defence Ministry budget, which was just $12bn, he added" .

Unfortunately, this article is unavailable for viewing on the Irish Examiner website and Indymedia guidelines preclude me from posting the full article, I think?.

In Palestine no one can hear you scream

by David L - IPSC Mon Feb 05, 2007 14:17

Hi Molly Bloom - fair enough, the IPSC has to be careful not to use imagry which might be misconstrued as antisemitic. There is a problem though, in that anything we do will be misconstrued as antisemitic in any case.

For instance - pointing out that the Israeli army kill kids - in fact a higher percentage of kids than suicide bombers do - leads to accusations that we are promoting a 'blood libel' against all Jews. Selling Christmas cards leads to accusations that we are promoting Christian hatred against Jews (I'm not making this up!) and so on.

At the same time, we do need to be careful and not alienate people stupidly. Point taken

by pat c Mon Feb 05, 2007 14:36

There seems to be a problem with Galway IPSC. They previously posted an image of 'Cronos Devouring His Children' and Cronos had a Star of David on his forehead, not an Israeli Flag. The children had Palestinian flags on them which suggests to me that the placing of the Star of David is deliberate.

Maybe the saner heads in the IPSC would have a word with them.

But its not a Blood Libel to point out that IDF kill more children than suicide bombers do.

Nor is it anti-Semitic to support Hamas or Hezbollah in their actions against the Israeli Military.

Just don't support their political programmes ;)

by PaddyK Mon Feb 05, 2007 14:37

"People need to be absolutely clear that being Pro-Palestine does not involve anti-Semitism. Our problem is with Zionism"

I think most people who support a just remedy to the Palestinian tragedy are well aware of where they stand on the issue and would not need to be brow beaten by any self-righteous Anti-Zionist Crusaders. BTW.. In denying the principles of Zionism you categorically deny the Jews any rights to their proclaimed homeland in Israel. That’s a matter of opinion and debate for those interested but it stinks far higher of Anti-Semitism than any anti-flag logos.
What is it called when someone puts a red line or a skull and cross bones on a Union Jack to protest the murderous onslaught in Iraq, based on a fabrication of anti-Iraqi lies? Anti-Saxonic hatred?
Furthermore FYI, Anti-Semitism is discrimination based on ethnicity not religion, hence the phrase Anti-Semite-ism not Anti-Judaism. So that whole religious symbol thing doesn’t wash, unless you are trying to confuse the issue on purpose. I don’t think you are, moi, I just think you are generally confused, but the other pair might be getting things the way the like it on this thread.

Look! Well Done Guys of the Galway IPSC... Remember! It’s a flag; it’s the Israeli flag. You guys are protesting Israel for the unrelenting genocidal policies it espouses for the Palestinian people. You are to be commended for the giving of your time. The placing of yourselves in danger of assault at the hands of private security goons or even state goons.

To have to read this ridiculous drivel must be terribly annoying for you. Keep up the excellent work; it is having the desired effect.

by redjade Mon Feb 05, 2007 14:51

TD-ISPC said: 'Unfortunately, this article is unavailable for viewing on the Irish Examiner website and Indymedia guidelines preclude me from posting the full article, I think?.'

TD,
You can post a link to the article on the Irish Examiner site - you can even post an excerpt of it. If you have read the editorial guidelines, you would know this.

You can even post a link to the username/password to the Examiner via http://www.bugmenot.com to help people get around that firewall.

I look forward to seeing this article you mentioned.

by pat c Mon Feb 05, 2007 14:59

"To have to read this ridiculous drivel must be terribly annoying for you. Keep up the excellent work; it is having the desired effect."

Paddy is the desired effect to have bad publicity for the IPSC? Just remember: the broad masses out there do not think like you think and have to be won over. I agree with you on the Israeli flag, deface it, burn it (carful though, last time I tried that it melted).

But be careful with the Star of David symbol. On its own, it is the symbol of Judaism. The Star of David should not be equated with the Nazi-swastika.

by TD - IPSC Mon Feb 05, 2007 16:30

"redjade" pointless in giving the link to the Irish Examiner when the relevant article is'nt accessible except with perhaps a subscription code which I don't have - the quotations in my previous posting were typed from a bought copy.

To, hopefully, make the text legible (and squeaky clean as regards "Anti-Semitism") click with mouse

by redjade Mon Feb 05, 2007 17:06

The Israeli Diamond Industry says they do not use blood diamonds and adhere to the 'Kimberly Process/'

I'm not interested in defending Israel nor Diamonds - but does the IPSC have evidence that Israel is violating the Kimberly Process?

see...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberley_Process_Certific...cheme

http://www.israelidiamond.co.il/english/index.aspx

by Molly Bloom - anti-war Mon Feb 05, 2007 17:12

"Furthermore FYI, Anti-Semitism is discrimination based on ethnicity not religion, hence the phrase Anti-Semite-ism not Anti-Judaism."

Nope, it's been defined for a long time as anti-Judaism and if you look it up in any reputable dictionary you'll find that this is one of its main definitions. Many words in the English language have come to mean things they didn't originally mean.

The focus on the meaning of 'anti-semitism' is, anyway, a distraction away from the point of debate. The IPSC does good work on an important issue. I don't think 'moi', pat c or anyone else denied that. It's just a good idea not to post up pictures of disfigured creatures with stars of David on their foreheads if you really want people to empahtise with the Palestinian struggle and get the message out. Personally, I would find it impossible to work with anyone who thought it was okay to deface a star of David or to depict Jews as monsters.

I've come across 9/11 'Truth' movement people who are saying 9/11 was one big Jewish conspiracy and unfortunately they have a tendency to discredit those working against American foreign policy, because they're so vocal about their nutty conspiracy theories. We have to be careful this type of thing doesn't get the upper hand because it will undermine the credibility of those genuinely interested in human rights.

by Ronan Mon Feb 05, 2007 18:16

9/11 was one big Jewish conspiracy! You're discrediting the Palestinian solidarity movement by asserting otherwise!

by Dub Mon Feb 05, 2007 18:20

It's disgraceful that Gardaí should even be there for what is obviously a peaceful protest. I think raising these issues is good. I don't necessarily think boycotts are best strategy though.

by TD - IPSC Mon Feb 05, 2007 20:10

Molly Bloom : "It's just a good idea not to post up pictures of disfigured creatures with stars of David on their foreheads"

Not a good idea to contend with an innumerate, discretion should be the better part of valour, it is said, but here goes ; the "disfigured creatures" you mention are/is in the singular, I'm afraid - unless naughty Cronus in Francisco Goya's powerful and famed picture presently hanging in the Prado Museum has powers of mitosis for it was this image, of "Cronus devouring his son" that I employed to say something strong, I thought, on Israel's cannibalization and annexation of Palestinian land. Goya hung it in his dining room or sitting room, you seek to hang it around my neck as a millstone of anti-semitism. Shame on you !

by Sean - IPSC Mon Feb 05, 2007 20:55

redjade,

The Israeli diamond industry may well claim they do not use blood diamonds and adhere to the Kimberly process but the point that the IPSC and other solidarity organisations worldwide are making is that the definition of Conflict diamond according to the UN's Kimberly process is seriously flawed as it is limited to rough or unpolished diamonds from conflict zones. This definition of what constitutes a conflict diamond means that revenue from the much more lucrative polished diamonds in conflict zones is being used to fund human rights abuses and ensures the Israeli diamond business is not impacted or put under the spotlight.

Global Palestine Solidarity (GPS), a coalition of Palestine solidarity organisations worldwide has activated a campaign aimed at increasing public awareness of the extent of Israeli involvement in the blood diamond business. Actions are being staged in Ireland, Australia, Canada, South Africa and Norway with a number of other countries expected to join the campaign within weeks.

The Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign (IPSC) claim that jewellers are selling Israeli blood diamonds to unsuspecting Irish consumers.

According to the definition of Conflict or Blood Diamond as set out in the UN’s Kimberley Process only unpolished or “rough” diamonds come under its control. Excluding trade in the much more valuable polished diamonds from conflict zones ensures that the Israeli diamond business evades its strictures. This sleight-of-hand has to be addressed by the international community by broadening the definition of Conflict Diamonds to include polished diamonds.

The IPSC will be staging events in Dublin and other cities around Ireland to raise public awareness and encourage people to demand certifiably Israeli-Free diamonds in the run-up to Valentine’s Day

Israel claims to be the world’s number one exporter of diamonds and in 2005 Israeli gemstone exports were valued at over 16 billion US dollars and comprised 30% of total manufacturing exports. The significance of this figure can be appreciated if one considers that the Israeli Defence Ministry budget in 2007 is less than 12 billion US dollars. (If the trend of recent years continues, Israeli gemstone exports in 2007 will be $18-20 billion)

The failure to introduce a hallmarking system for diamonds has resulted in consumers unwittingly supporting the Israeli economy and Israel's continuing illegal occupation of Palestinian land, ongoing crimes against humanity including the collective punishment of the 1.4 million people trapped in the Gaza strip, genocide, creeping ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and the continued detention of over 10,000 Palestinian prisoners, many without charge, including juveniles and dozens of democratically elected Palestinian lawmakers and ministers.

Although the technology to hallmark diamonds microscopically is readily available, the diamond industry has chosen not to use it, fearing the inevitable consumer backlash at the prospect of wearing Israeli blood diamonds. As one of the GPS campaign slogan says An Israeli blood diamond is forever…on your conscience.

The IPSC is critical of the Retail Jewellers of Ireland (RJI) for continuing to purchase diamonds crafted in Israel, the world’s most persistent violator of international humanitarian law and over 60 UN resolutions. The IPSC calls on Irish consumers to demand certifiably Israeli-Free diamonds such as laser-inscribed diamonds from other countries. Furthermore, the IPSC calls on the RJI to publish the ethics statement by which, according to its web site, all its members have agreed to abide: otherwise it can only be concluded that the statement in question is a fiction.

This campaign marks the first time that Palestinian solidarity organisations worldwide have cooperated closely and coordinated their activities to bring maximum public pressure to bear on the Israel state. According to the IPSC spokesperson, the failure of international governments - America and the EU in particular - to rein in the Israeli rogue state has forced civil society worldwide to take action demonstrating its abhorrence of Israel's oppression and subjugation of the Palestinian people. Israel will have to learn a basic law of physics: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

by PaddyK Mon Feb 05, 2007 21:05

"Paddy is the desired effect to have bad publicity for the IPSC?"

No, the desired effect is to let people know which stores are making money from the occupaiton and so lets us general folk know who to shun. That raises support.
Then to have coppers standing around wasting taxpayers money looking at a group of Peaceful protestors, while gunmen, pimps, junkies, and fianna fail TDs are roaming the streets freely having their evil way with Irish society. It raises questions.
The right kafuffle caused at the doors will definitely catch people's attention. That raises awareness.
And then to have the bottom dwellers coming out here and on other discussion boards and showing the miserable nature of their own arguments by trying to try to sideline the thread into the usual laybay where they try to verbally assault the peaceful protestors with the bag of clichés. That raises the issue of the abuse of the Jewish community's history by agents trying to conceal the ethnic cleansing in Palestine. The true anti-Semites, here as far as I am concerned.

I agree with all you said, but there are no such images as you describe here or on the protest. And the flag is just a flag. People should be made unequivocally aware that this type of protest is legitimate and constructive and one of the only tools available.

If one is not comfortable holding an Israeli flag with a line through it, then don't do it.
If someone wants to walk down O Connell Street inciting racism then they should do it, and they should and probably will be arrested.
But as can clearly be seen by the easily perplexed coppers, they aint breaking no laws at Atlantic Homecare Galway.

by moi Tue Feb 06, 2007 09:45

I sincerely hope that TD isn't anti-semite and do accept his publicly given word that he isn't. However, the image that he previously posted WAS antisemite, no matter how he dresses it up. He got shot down for that and genuine Pro-Palestine activists, like myself, are sincerely concerned that yet more ammunition isn't given to those who wish to depict a national liberation/human rights movement as antisemite. Frankly, I'm sick of being described as antisemite when I do Palestine solidarity work and it angers me when activists make the point for those who wish to discredit us.

So, instead of being so bloody-mindedly defensive, listen to what is been said. It is being said in a constructive way; antisemitism is NOT ACCEPTABLE in the Palestine solidarity movement and activists should do their level best to avoid symbolism that could be consrued as such. Imho, that means no stars of david with red lines through them! And btw, just to be pedantic for a moment, the red circle is on the star of david on that poster; the flag is not at the centre - indeed the flag extends well beyond the red stripe. Whether badly done or what, it looks like the star that is being struck out.

Nobody is asking TD to walk around with a sign around his head - I'm asking you to take these concerns SERIOUSLY and to steer well clear of any symbolism that could be misinterpreted or misunderstood. Simple request, really, I would have thought.

by Mise Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:00

Lads, if showing an Israeli flag with a red line crossing it is anti-semitic, then the organisation Neturei Karta (an Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jewish organisation) in attached picture must be terribly anti-semitic! (come on, please!).

Shouldn't people be discussing WHY is a religious symbol, such as the star of David, put into a national flag? That could be an interesting subject for debate indeed.

TD from Galway is a brilliant highly committed activist, it is pathetic to have pro-Palestine people attacking him just cos they are too afraid of the establishment.

Mise

Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jewish Organisation protesting in New York, Nov 9, 2006

by moi Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:42

Mise, many thanks for posting that photo which could be wheeled out in defence of anybody in this country accused of antisemitism for using the same or a similar image.

However...

It is not necessary to put ourselves in such a corner. It is immeasureably easier for a Jewish organisation to use such symbolism because, short of being called "self-hating Jews", they can hardly be accused of antisemitism! Non-Jews don't have recourse to such an instantaneous defence and have to go through the rigmarole of "explaining ourselves". Why bother? Why allow the pro-Israel lobby an opportunity to focus the debate on alleged "antisemitism"?

"Fear" of the government/right wing, etc. etc.? I mean really, you could use that to excuse anything. Antisemtism is a major issue in Europe and the Middle East and it hasn't gone away. It is very important that we are clear - very clear - in our opposition to it. The previous image posted by TD (of the Jewish monster eating children) is partly responsible for my worries re. this particular image. Is it wrong to be uber-careful on the issue of antisemtism? I think not.

Btw, I've seen many postings by TD on indymedia and I have no doubt that he is a valued and valuable activist. I began all this with a simple, very brief request at the end of a posting that congratulated the Galway IPSC for their picket. Fair dues to TD and Galway IPSC. They're doing great work.

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:41

Following the debate, and the various attempts to derail it, with interest. Last Saturday, while the Galway ipsc friends were picketing Atlantic Home Care, a small number of ipsc activists also picketed the Sandyford premises of the same outfit. This is a national campaign and it will continue.

I think it would be useful for interested activists to visit the portal www.ijv.org.uk and read some of the material coming from independent jewish voices in the UK. I agree with the comment above that, at times, activists are too fearful of criticism - as a partial answer, below is a list of organisations in Israel itself, fighting for equality and justice....working with Palestinian people and struggling against the injustices perpetrated by the Zionist State - all of them, obviously,anti-Semitic?

All of them available on the Net

Abraham Fund Initiatives
Adalah - The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel
Akoda - promoting a culture of peace in Israel & the Middle East
Alternative Information Centre
Anarchists Against the Wall
Arab-Jewish Ensemble of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra
Arava Peace & Environmental Network
Ariga
Association of Arab University Students
Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI)
Association of Forty for Recognition of Arab Villages
Bat Shalom - Women for Peace
Baladna
Banki
Beyond Words
Bimkom - Planners for Planning Rights (human rights & spatial planning)
Bitterlemons - Palestinian-Israeli online journal
Black Laundry
Blue Rising Coalition - for a Permanent Status Peace
Breaking the Silence
Bridges - Israeli-Palestinian Public Health Magazine (sponsored by WHO)
Bridge for Peace - Israeli/Palestinian/Jordanian Disk Jockeys
B'Tselem - Israel Information Centre for Human Rights in the occupied territories
Bustan L'Shalom - social justice & environment
(The) Campus Is Not Silent
Centre for Creativity in Education & Cultural Heritage
Centre for the Struggle against Racism
Chefs for Peace
Children of Abraham
Citizens' Accord Forum
Clinical Legal Education Center for Human Rights & Social Responsibility
Coalition of Women for a Just Peace
Combat Seruv - Israeli officers & soldiers refusing to serve in the occupied territories
Combatants for Peace - former Israeli & Palestinian combatants
Conscientious Objectors' Support Forum
Council for Peace & Security
Creativity for Peace
Crossing borders - Israeli-Palestinian-Jordanian Youth Magazine
Culture of Peace Educational Program
(The) Democratic Choice
Disabled Veterans
Druse Initiative Committee
Du-Et - Israeli newspaper written & produced jointly by Jewish and Arab journalists
Du Siach
Economic Cooperation Foundation - for an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement
E'Elam - Media Centre for Palestinians in Israel
Emda Circle
Encounter - EMEM
Eshed - citizenship, peace, democracy
Family Focus - Israeli-Palestinian bereaved parents' forum
Fighters Meet Fighters
Forum for National Consensus
(The) Fifth Mother
Geneva accord (Beilin-Abed Rabbo initiative)
Gisha - Center for the legal protection of freedom of movement
Givat Haviva - Jewish-Arab Centre for Peace
Green Action
(The) Green Line - Students for a Border
Gush Shalom
HaCampus Lo Shotek -The Campus Is Not Silent
HaKav HaYarok
HaMifkad HaLeumi - Voice of the People (Nusseibeh/Ayalon peace initiative)
HaMoked - Center for the Defence of the Individual.
Hand in Hand project - Center for Jewish-Arab Education in Israel
(The) High Follow-Up Committee for the Arab citizens in Israel
HRA - The Arab Association for Human Rights
High school seniors draft refusers
IFLAC - Peace through Culture
Indymedia - Independent Media Group
Interfaith Encounter Association
Interreligious Coordinating Council
IPCRI - Israel-Palestine Centre for Research & Information
Ir Amim - City of Nations or Peoples (= Jerusalem)
Ir Shalem
Islam-Israel Fellowship
Israeli Committtee Against House Demolitions
Israeli Committee for the Right of Residency
Israeli-Palestinian Coalition for Peace
Israeli-Palestinian Peoples' Peace Campaign (IPPPC)
Israeli Section of Amnesty International
Jerusalem Foodsong
Jerusalem Jewish-Arab Circus
Jewish-Arab Community Association, Acre
Kav L'Oved - Workers' Hotline
Kav Yarok - Students for Immediate Withdrawal
Keshev - The Center for the Protection of Democracy in Israel
Kol Aher BaGalil - A different voice in Galilee
Kvisa Sh'hora - Lesbians and Gay Men Against the Occupation
Left Forum
Manara - advancing the status of Arab women in Israel
Mas'ha Group
Merchavim - Institute for Democratic Education
MachsomWatch - women monitoring soldiers' conduct at checkpoints
Masha Peace Camp
Mateh Ha'Rov - Coalition of the Majority
MEET - Middle East Education through Technology
Mideast Web
Monitoring Committee of the Arab Population of Israel
Mossawa Center - Advocacy Center for Arab Citizens of Israel
Negev Coexistence Forum
Negev Shalom
NELED
Network of Organizations for Jewish-Arab Coexistence in Israel
Neve Shalom/Wahat al-Salaam - integrated Jewish-Arab village near Latrun
New Israel Fund
New Profile
Noga
Olive Harvest Coalition
One Struggle
One to One - fosters peace & co-operation between Arabs & Jews in Israel
One Voice
Open House, Ramle - meeting place for Jewish & Arab youth
Open Tent
Ossim Shalom - Social Workers for Peace
Oz VeShalom/Netivot Shalom - orthodox Jewish movement for peace
Palestine-Israel Journal
Peace Alliance
Peace Child Israel
Peacemaker Community - Israel
Peres Centre for Peace
Physicians for Human Rights, Israel
Public Committee Against Torture in Israel
Rabbis for Human Rights
Rave Against The Occupation
Re'ut/Sadaka - Jewish-Arab Youth Movement for Peace & Equality
Salaam-V-Shalom
(The) Seventh Day
Shalom Achshav - Peace Now
Shatil
Shministim
Shovrim Shtika - Breaking the Silence (The Combatants Story)
Shuvi - Come Home (women urging withdrawal from Gaza Strip)
Sikkuy - Opportunity (Association for the Advancement of Civic Equality in Israel)
Sons of Abraham
Sulha Peace Project / Young Sulhita
(The) Supreme Followup Committee
Ta Adam
Tajamu Youth
Take-Their-Guns Coalition
TANDI - Movement of Democratic Women in Israel
Ta'ayush - Arab-Jewish Partnership
Together Forum (32 groups)
Union of Arab Associations
University Student Coalition
Vision of Peace with Justice in Israel/Palestine
War widows
West-Eastern Divan Orchestra (conducted by Daniel Barenboim)
WILPF, Israel - Women's International League for Peace & Friendship
Windows for Peace - Palestinian-Israeli Friendship Centre
Wives of Reserve Soldiers
Women Against The Wall
Women & Mothers for Peace (formerly Four Mothers)
Women in Black
Women's Coalition for Peace
Women's Interfaith Encounter
X-Fighters - former Israeli & Palestinian combatants educating youth on costs of violence
Yakar
Yesh Din- There is Law (promotes human rights in the West Bank & Gaza Strip)
Yesh Gvul - There is a limit / border
(The) Young Israeli Forum for Cooperation
Zochrot - Remembering (Israeli citizens raising awareness of the Palestinian Nakba)

by moi Tue Feb 06, 2007 14:10

That's an evasion, MichaelY, not a response in any sense to a fairly straightforward word of caution about antisemitism. And I don't think in any of my remarks I have engaged in hyperbole or tried to blow this out of proportion, or attempted to make it seem that pro-Palestine activists can/should be smeared with this label. As a Palestinian solidarity activist myself, it would be very odd if I thought those around me were antisemitic when I know the opposite to be the truth.

Having said that, it's dismaying to read such bull-headed defensiveness and unwillingness to concede that some symbolism is misjudged and could be misinterpreted. Maybe you haven't met them, but, in years gone by, I have met one or two activists who laced their pro-Palestine work with an inchoate antisemitism. One or two out of the hundreds I've known and worked with, but one or two too many.

So, enough with this "we're whiter than white" defensiveness! Might wash with the iawm/swp but it won't wash with me.

Anyway, I had intended simply to make a quick point and to leave it at that. Instead, a 'debate' has arisen. Such is life. I've made my point and I intend to leave it at that. No more contributions on this issue from me!

Again, solidarity and best wishes to Galway IPSC. Keep it up.

by redjade Tue Feb 06, 2007 14:30

I'll get back to the blood diamonds issue when I have the chance

Mise posted a photo above and a link to http://www.nkusa.org
see: http://indymedia.ie/article/80818#comment182655

My god. You guys are either naive or too clever for your own good.

nkusa.org and nkuk.org are the ultra othodox jews that went to the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Holocaust Denial conference!

The reason they oppose the State of Israel is NOT because they care about the human rights of Palestinians but because they believe that a 'proper' State of Israel will be created after the jewsish messiah comes!

And you say these are your political allies?! Good grief!

by TD - IPSC Tue Feb 06, 2007 15:38

moi : "the Jewish monster eating children".

Mike : "a disfigured Jew eating babies".

Eamon : "a disfigured Jew eating babies".

Molly Bloom : "disfigured creatures with stars of David on their foreheads... appallingly anti-semitic images".

Deirdre Clancy : "at the extreme end of anti-Semitic: a caricature of a Jew as a monster, with a star of David on its forehead".

I put it to all of the above (and more) that I am not, not, not an "anti-semite". With the benefit of hindsight, to make it in your face explicit I should have put the Israeli flag rather than the Star of David on the forehead of Cronus, it was and is a fuck-up and as such, I politely request you to accept my bona fides on this matter?.

by Jake Tue Feb 06, 2007 15:45

So that's it Moi? You're off! You come along and open a right hornets nest and then without as much as a by your leave 'I'll be off now and won't be making any more contributions on the matter" Well it's well for some. You've left TD with a millstone around his neck, and Paddy well he's probably gone off to Israel to join a Kibbutz, out of guilt.

by Jake Tue Feb 06, 2007 15:56

I'm sure you're sincere TD. I'm a Jew studying in Galway and have been thoroughly enjoying thhis debate but have been trying to no avail to knock some lightheartedness into the exchanges.
Best to all of you

by moi Tue Feb 06, 2007 15:57

I fully accept TD's word and bono fides when he now says that the monster imagery was simply a fuck up. He has posted here, put his hands and said so. I accept his word and, consequently, fully accept he's not antisemitic. I'm not stirring things up to leave anybody swinging in the wind.

My general point about being careful stands and, as I've said, I've elaborated on what I mean and I don't intend to go on repeating myself. To be honest, I don't think I've said anything especially controversial.

by TD - IPSC Tue Feb 06, 2007 21:15

Appreciated, man, appreciated, for you've given me a fair crack of the whip.

by Deirdre Clancy - personal capacity Tue Feb 06, 2007 22:43

I haven't read the whole debate, but I've been quoted above (accurately), so I'd just like to add that I accept what TD has to say, as I've never been given any reason to think TD is anything other than a genuine, committed activist who made a bit of a boo-boo. And is now big enough to admit it.

I commend IPSC for all their great work in keeping the Palestinian cause in the public consciousness.

by PaddyK Wed Feb 07, 2007 02:01

Quoting Moi (who did say one relevant thing):

- Why allow the pro-Israel lobby an opportunity to focus the debate on alleged "antisemitism"? -
-------------------------------------------

Can any of the bleeding heart "Pro-Palestinian" concerned citizens on here make me a list of other flags we shouldn't ought to put a red line through?

Some genius said that it was the fact that the red circle was not touching the flag enough but was more on the star that was causing the problem for his preciousness. Does that mean that one can get a load of little red lines and put them all over the flag and not touch the star and "That's OK lads"?

What a crock of Pseudo-Zionist manure.

The Union Jack has a Cross on the front, can I write "Brits Out" all over that as long as I dont touch off the Cross. Or perhaps a proportionate touching of the Cross might be acceptable to the Precious Police . Or as some other philosopher here suggested do I have a right to touch the cross with my racist graffiti cos I'm a papist Tadgh - Same as the Orthodox Jews have a right to boycott the Israeli flag but us fecking eejits are too susceptible to racism to be allowed contemplate such horrendous measures lest we start foaming at the mouth.

Racism?

Lads , Like I said earlier, be there next week, bring your placards and ignore this muck.

by anon Wed Feb 07, 2007 14:22

Dermot Ahern, the foreign minister of Ireland, a country whose relations with Israel can best be described as "cool," arrived in Israel Tuesday night for a brief visit as part of a regional tour that will also take him to Egypt and Lebanon.

Ahern's visit at this time is widely considered in Jerusalem as an attempt to raise his domestic profile and the profile of his Fianna F il party before the upcoming Irish elections.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=116746785152...wFull

The entire of Ireland officially antisemite according to the jpost.

by Noel Wed Feb 07, 2007 14:50

'The entire of Ireland officially antisemite according to the jpost'

I've read the article.
Where does it state that 'The entire of Ireland officially antisemite'?
The term anti-Semite was not even used.

Anon, why say such a thing?

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Wed Feb 07, 2007 17:27

Below are the two paragraphs of the said article that should be examined with care.

"Israel's relations with Ireland are widely considered in Jerusalem as among the worst Israel has with any European country, and Ireland is roughly clumped together in Jerusalem with the Scandinavian countries in the EU as being among the most critical of Israel ", the Jerusalem Post says

While it is true that the concept of anti-semitism is not raised directly, phrases such as "worst relations" and Ireland "being clumped with the Scandinavian countries" are, at best, open to interpretation. Some may, and probably will, say all this is because Irish people and their Government are anti-semitic!!

The second paragraph that states"......There are very few people-to-people ties, and trade with Ireland - despite the booming Irish economy - declined by 36 percent to $460 million last year. While Irish leaders have over the last year led large delegations of Irish businessmen to Saudi Arabia, there has not been any similar delegation to Israel....." is also quite open to interpretation....

Not a word there that this reality may be the result of the solidarity felt by the vast majority of the Irish people towards the Palestinians...the solidarity we feel towards their longing for their land, their homes, their olive trees that have been stolen by the zionist State. The echoes that longing has with our own past and at times present longing for control of resources, for democracy, for transparency and accountabilioty and for unity!!

Bottom line: this is something we can feel proud of.....any analysis the begrudgers, or the trolls, may come up with should not diminish this reality. We must support the Palestinians, support the resistance and use every opportunity to oppose and confront the policies of the Zionist State.

by Molly Bloom Wed Feb 07, 2007 17:58

MichaelY appears to think that anyone who dares point out flaws in how campaigns conduct themselves is a begrudger or a troll. Talk about wanting to stifle legitimate concerns! The reality is very different. Most of the so-called trolls made it clear they supported the goals of the demonstrators, but questioned some of the imagery. "Moi" pointed out that it could create negative perception of the campaign,when it was a worthy campaign and that would be a pity. This is a pretty helpful observation. If this is trolling then god forbid that anyone should ever disagree with MichaelY on indymedia ever again! anyone who does is a troll or a begrudger!

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Wed Feb 07, 2007 19:02

It's in the eye of the beholder whether one finds comments/accusations re: conscious or unconscious anti-semitism helpful or not....In this particular thread, I have offered no points of view and therefore had no reason to feel slighted by criticism.....at the same time, I wouldn't have liked to be in the position of TD who had the courage to stand up and admit he may have overstepped the mark. Wish all of us had that courage!

My remarks above had to do with the Jerusalem Post article and nothing more. Incidentally, talking of trolls, what I do know is that there over 2,000 high school and University students in Israel whose daily job [and I mean job - paid at the minimum wage rate] is to peruse all and every portal in Europe and the US and under a whole array of pseudonyms and handles trying to derail any debate and discussion which touches in any way the machinations of their Zionist State and what it's doing to the Palestinians. And the anti-semitism smear is one of their most valued weapons....

I would agree that well-intentioned criticism from inside and around a campaign is always welcome - at times, it can even be invaluable. The experience of the iawm surely demonstrates that. Again whether some of the stuff that was bandied about above qualifies as well-intentioned and constructive....up for debate my good friend! What did Joyce use to say Molly....if it sounds like....it probably is!!

by Marie Stopes Wed Feb 07, 2007 19:29

"would agree that well-intentioned criticism from inside and around a campaign is always welcome - at times, it can even be invaluable. The experience of the iawm surely demonstrates that. "

Dont make laugh! How many people have been expelled from or driven out of the IAWM? Why do you think AWI came about? Cop yourself on Michael , you are not dealing with fools. People have memories, we are not goldfish.

And who decides on whether the criticism is well intentioned? You of course. The problem is that you are incapable of accepting any criticism.

"Again whether some of the stuff that was bandied about above qualifies as well-intentioned and constructive....up for debate my good friend! What did Joyce use to say Molly....if it sounds like....it probably is!!"

What do you mean? Are you saying that its wrong to criticise anti-Semitism? That cartoon by TD was anti-Semitic. He deserves no credit for apologising for it. It says something about his mentality that he thought it was ok in the first place.

And what comes from you certainly sounds like... it.

You are not going to bully people into silence.

by Noel Wed Feb 07, 2007 23:08

'The entire of Ireland officially antisemite according to the jpost'

MichaelY - this thread and more specifically the posts from IPSC members is getting beyond parody.
Once upon a time Jews were roundly accused of shouting anti-Semitism at every perceived criticism. Now you are defending Anon's completely false and misleading claim that the Jerusalem Post stated 'the entire of Ireland officially antisemite'.

When anti-semites claim to see non-existent claims of anti-semitism, and an anti-Israeli group defends it.......we're entering Monty Python territory.

by Molly Bloom Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:05

MichaelY says that "It's in the eye of the beholder whether one finds comments/accusations re: conscious or unconscious anti-semitism helpful or not"

Are you saying, Michael, that the use of anti-semitic imagery should go uncommented on for the greater good of the IPSC? That it's acceptable to use this type of imagery, more acceptable to use it, in fact, than it is to point out how inappropriate it is? It seems to me you are. It seems to me you can't abide any criticism however legitimate of any organisation you have an interest in.

by moi Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:25

That indeed does seem to be the gist of MichaelY's comments. He has long adopted the same attitude with regard to the iawm. Hear no evil, see no evil.

That said, I don't think the IPSC, which is a great organisation, should be tarred because of one very badly judged image, especially when the person who posted it has forcefully apologised and indicated that he made a mistake. The image was inexcuseable but TD had the grace to put his hands up. MichaelY, on the other hand, is in denial. Not a very healthy attitude and uncharacteristic of the many IPSC members I've worked with since the group was formed a few years ago.

by Michael Y - iawm/ipsc Thu Feb 08, 2007 14:57

"Once upon a time Jews were roundly accused of shouting anti-Semitism at every perceived criticism" says Noel. Methnks that this is not a "once upon a time" story...this is reality. The Zionist State of Israel castigates its critics either as anti-semitic or islamophile, or most often both. I maintain my argument that the Jerusalem Post emanates a distinct echo of the same position.
On the issue of the Galway (and Dublin) ipsc boycott activity against the Atlantic Home Care outfit last weekend, the reality is that this boycott will continue nationally and extend itself to other stores that import/sell Israeli products. This type of activity, requested and supported by countless Palestinian organisations is annoying a number of people who find boycott politically uncomfortable.....it was the same during the early stages of the South African boycott activity in the '80s. A number of arguments will be put against it among them 'the right of speech', the right to expression', the 'right to criticise'......and, of course, that any boycott activity against Israeli products, or Israeli intellectuals, or Israeli athletes, or Israeli diamonds, is essentially, or almost generically, anti-Semitic.
Be that as it may, nowhere in this thread has anybody associated with the ipsc or the iawm has argued that conscious or unconscious anti-semitism is to be either defended, supported or encouraged. To my knowledge, a number of individuals who were suffering from that extremely virulent virus were admonished and in fact forced to leave the ipsc....that may be the couple of examples mentioned by 'moi'.
Beyond that this is not the thread to discuss what happened 2-3 years ago with a number of actvists who left the iawm - to my knowledge two were expelled and a set left voluntarily....that whole saga was not something the iawm could be proud of....many of the individuals involved are still very active in the anti-war moevment, and a few, among them myself, are trying actively to build bridges and heal wounds. As an example, it was great to get an email this morning from anti-war ireland inviting people to turn up in tonight 'Support the Rayhtheon Meeting' in Dublin's ATGWU Hall organised by the iawm. It was also great to see anti-war Ireland and iawm working together in organising the Dublin Caoimhe Butterly meeting. Free-lance sniping against organisations such as the ipsc or the iawm, or individuals in them, may be a hobby for some. Others may have other motives.....the reality is that uncritical and vicarious criticism, at times, hurts people. Check the debate between a courageous woman in awi and a an anti-war activist in another thread...the venom and the personal bile made me cringe.......if that stuff goes under the name of 'criticism', I'd prefer, a million times, to be in denial. It's that kind of messing that forces good people to give up on progressive politics. And my experience over the years tells me that is quite often the objective of the 'critics'!! Present company above excluded of course!!

by Marie Stopes Thu Feb 08, 2007 15:21

"Free-lance sniping against organisations such as the ipsc or the iawm, or individuals in them, may be a hobby for some."

Where is the free lance sniping? You see any criticism as sniping or trolling.

"Others may have other motives....."

What is that supposed to mean? Are the IPSC & IAWM above criticism?

"the reality is that uncritical and vicarious criticism, at times, hurts people. "

There is none of that on this thread.

"Check the debate between a courageous woman in awi and a an anti-war activist in another thread...the venom and the personal bile made me cringe......"

That has nothing to do with the argument here. Why are you introducing Red Herrings?

."if that stuff goes under the name of 'criticism', I'd prefer, a million times, to be in denial. "

Who says that it goes under the name of criticism? You were the one who raised it here. You are a dishonest debater.

"It's that kind of messing that forces good people to give up on progressive politics."

What about the messing that forced people out of the IAWM? Dont forget about those who were expelled and forced out.

"And my experience over the years tells me that is quite often the objective of the 'critics'!! Present company above excluded of course!!"

That sort of "smart" aleckism is trolling. You are in the IAWM, ask the IAWM puppetmeisters why they expelled people. Some of those people are now in AWI and other Anti War groups. The actions of the IAWM did not force decent people out of politics.

by anon Thu Feb 08, 2007 15:27

michaelY "a number of actvists who left the iawm - to my knowledge two were expelled and a set left voluntarily"

err...actually groups disaffiliated left, right and centre and half the steering committee fecked off. Later still, the Socialist Party upped sticks, leaving the swp carrying its own can by itself with a couple of indos it picked up. For the rec. as well, Michael, Anti-war Ireland is made up primarily of people who had nothing to do with the split that happened a few years ago. The world moves on and it's good to see anti-war activists cooperating. A bit more mutuality and we'd be on the ball.

by Fred Johnston Thu Feb 08, 2007 19:11 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

I can only say to 'Jake' above that lightheartedness is difficult to apply to what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians. Be that as it may, readers may like to know that the Irish Republic's academy, Aodána, intend to debate the whole issue of a cultural boycott on Israel soon. One will recall that two Irish poets attended an Israeli poetry festival (see the current issue of The Phoenix magazine) last November, in spite of calls for boycotts since 2002.

by Jake Thu Feb 08, 2007 19:21

Fred,
What I meant was lightening up the tone of the exchange with a little bit of irony, I didn't mean belittling the plight of the Palestinians. Sorry.

by Deirdre Clancy - personal capacity Thu Feb 08, 2007 19:21

I have a real feeling of deja vu about this thread! It's going around in circles, likes ones before and before again, and we're back to the IAWM/AWI thing again, which has little to do with the original subject of discussion. Let's get this straight: AWI members have put the past behind them. Most members weren't even part of the IAWM committee. There are a few who were on it and voluntarily walked out because of what they felt were undemocratic practices at the time. In my experience they never refer to it now. It's in the past. They're too busy getting on with building for the future. We are willing to co-operate with any anti-war group on an equal basis, including the IAWM, for the greater good of the movement. As Michael has pointed out, we co-hosted a meeting with the IAWM recently.

As Michael also points out, personalised criticism can be very poisonous; but I think criticism is okay if it's constructive. I sent TD a long e-mail some time back explaining why I found the image referred to on this thread problematic and was ultimately responsible for it being taken down. However, I wouldn't see that as destructive to a campaign - in my view, it would have done damage to the campaign to leave it up. I give TD the benefit of the doubt because he is clearly upset at how his image was read and sometimes people geuinely don't perceive things, even if they are obvious to various others. I do not go poking around suspiciously for antisemitic content, in the anti-war movement or otherwise, but I will definitely bring something up if it jumps out at me. In my experience, it doesn't happen often. However, it would be moral cowardice not to point out something I find very problematic, just because I had friends or acqaintances involved in a campaign, or cared about that campaign myself. Besides this, it's vital that we in Europe shouldn't forget our own history; we've shown ourselves capable of turning a blind eye to pretty horrific atrocities. Forgetting that, and regressing back to the centuries old superstitions about Jews or any other ethnic group, would be disastrous. There's enough prejudice in Ireland today without resurrecting that horrible old chestnut.

In fairness, I don't see many commentators on this thread trying to undermine the IPSC campaign. I do agree with Michael that critics of Israel are very often called antisemites when they're merely criticising the regime; this is a very cynical weapon used against those who are supporting Palestinians. But it's also better to avoid giving the right a really genuine reason to snipe. I totally respect and admire the work the IPSC does. But, as has often been said about the Irish government's relationship with the US, a good friend who tells you that you're in the right when privately they think otherwise is no friend at all. Added to which, I feel it's important to be consistent: that is, to critique ethnic caricatures across the board.