RTÉ BitTorrent: Hitler's Irish Movies

by pat c Thu Feb 01, 2007 13:00

"The film even suggests that the British invented concentration camps during the Boer War. "

They may have been beaten to it by the Spanish in Cuba. But the British certainly set up camps in South Africa in which thousands of Boer civilians died of disease and neglect.

by Sinéad - The Sigla Blog Thu Feb 01, 2007 13:07 sinead at sineadgleeson dot com

Thanks for the link guys.

Hi Pat,
Sorry, I clarified in the comments that the Germans tried to suggest the British set up concentration camps in the Nazi sense of the camps, ie, like those at Belsen, etc..

by pat c Thu Feb 01, 2007 13:15

"Hi Pat,
Sorry, I clarified in the comments that the Germans tried to suggest the British set up concentration camps in the Nazi sense of the camps, ie, like those at Belsen, etc.."

As regards those camps, its a matter of scale. Thousands of Boer civilians died in the British camps. They were death camps. The british could see that the Boers were dieing. Murder through neglect is still murder.

by Marlboro Man Thu Feb 01, 2007 13:22

The British knew exactly what they where doing by 'allowing' thousandss to die of neglect. Bullets cost money and all that.

I would also say that the owner of the Titanic was a greedy capitilist, i dont see a problem there either which leaves Mary Queen of Scots being cast as the goody. You will find that Elizebeth I was no angel, she approved of near genocidal tactics in Ireland.

All in all it seems that the british propagnada machine is hard at work under the guise and safety net of general anti-Nazi sentiment.

by R. Isible Thu Feb 01, 2007 14:03

"The film even suggests that the British invented concentration camps during the Boer War. "

They may have been beaten to it by the Spanish in Cuba.

During the Spanish-American war of 1898 or earlier?

There were suggestions in Ken Burns' PBS series on the American Civil War that largish numbers of prisoners were starved to death in camps. I can't find a reference for it but the photos of emaciated stick figures at wire fences were striking. (Bruce Catton and James M. McPherson's _New American Heritage History of the Civil War_ says that c. 50,000 soldiers died in prison camps and they expliciltly compare them to NAZI concentration camps in terms of conditions). Those were combatants, not civilians as in the Boer/British case though. Also, for both those cases there wasn't a large oven waiting at the end and the numbers were as you say much less, so I wonder about the comparison. I don't think it's unfair to suggest that the comparison is often made by those seeking to diminish the horror of the holocaust.

Interestingly there are also reports that somewhere between 100,000 - 200,000 Wehrmacht troops were starved to death in N.France after the allied victory.

by pat c Thu Feb 01, 2007 14:41

"During the Spanish-American war of 1898 or earlier?"

During the 1898 war and perhaps a shortwhile before it.

"There were suggestions in Ken Burns' PBS series on the American Civil War that largish numbers of prisoners were starved to death in camps."

I've come across this. Strangely its never been widely suggested that these were the first concentration camps. Perhaps because they were only used for POWs.

". I don't think it's unfair to suggest that the comparison is often made by those seeking to diminish the horror of the holocaust."

Maybe. But the denial that the British used concentration camps is often made by those who seeking to diminish the Holocaust carried out under the British Empire. Tens of millions of natives died either directly or indirectly at the hands of the British.

"Interestingly there are also reports that somewhere between 100,000 - 200,000 Wehrmacht troops were starved to death in N.France after the allied victory."

I have seen even higher figures cited regarding this.

by Phil Sat Feb 03, 2007 22:04

with regards to the British use of concentration camps:

The first chapter of John Pilger's Hidden Agends (http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/dec1999arnove.htm), entitled 'The Terrorists' ,details widespread starvation of the Mau Mau people of Kenya during that country's war of independance circa 1956. The anti-imperial uprising in Kenya was, and still is, distorted as a Mau Mau terror campaign against whites; Pilger points out that a mere 32 Europeans were killed by the Mau Mau, while many thousands of Mau Mau were deliberatly starved/beaten/murdered in British Concentration camps - he even goes so far as to say that many of the methods used by the Nazis were also practised by some of the British in charge of the camps in Kenya. If you've seen Schindlers List you know what I mean.

Curiously (ahem), the media reported none of it.

The whole of Gaza, appears to me at least, to have similarities with such camps

by Phil Sat Feb 03, 2007 22:27

Pilgers book was of course called Hidden Agendas and not Hidden Agends

and comparing death camps is valid - what exactly is your problem with such a comparison - the fact that the camps caused a lot of death or the methods used to achieve that?

In terms of what we today consider to be 'humane killing' (an oxymoron if ever I heard one) then one could (if one were prepared to be the recipient of a lot of hysterical ranting) argue that a relatively quick death by Zyklon B gas might be preferable to slow deliberate starvation/beating.

But I personally wouldn't argue that, as it would be likely to cause apoplexy amongst virulent Anti-semite-hunters the world over.

by mr. politically überkorrekt Sun Feb 04, 2007 08:22

The problem with comparing death-camps is a legal one.
Under the terms of "holocaust-denial" legisaltion (which is not yet in force in Ireland but just wait ...), it is a crime to "relativise the Holocaust".
Comparing death-camps can be interpreted as "relativisng the Holocaust" which makes it an offence PUNISHABLE BY LAW !

And if anyone says that Ireland doesn't suffer from this kind of legal absurdity, my answer is: Tha's right, NOT YET. But just wait and see ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6263103.stm

by b conlon /sligo Sun Feb 04, 2007 09:06

dont forget the biggest death camp of all 1845-1848 Ireland

by number 6 - legalise freedom campaign Sun Feb 04, 2007 13:30

Yes , Ireland was an open air death camp.

We starved for food , not for Potatoes.

You or I would not starve if we never ate another bag of chips. WOULD WE? NoT AT ALL.

So , what happen to all the FOOD in Ireland?

Why did we starve?

Because our Food ( 30 -50 ship loads every day) was removed , AT GUNPOINT ,out of this Country by no less than 12,000 british police reinforced by 200,000 british soldiers.

Essentially , GENOCIDE IN iRELAND

by Phil Sun Feb 04, 2007 14:59

I don't think it's unfair to suggest that the comparison is often made by those seeking to diminish the horror of the holocaust.

curiously enough, I don't think it unfair to suggest that those who wish to perpetuate the notion that the terrible actions of the Nazi Gov't. of Germany against the those they considered to be 'enemies' , which would include, but was NOT limited exclusively to, the Jewish population of Europe, often do so in an effort to promote the absolutely FALSE notion that what happened to the Jewish population of Europe was somehow far far worse than what happened to other victims of that Nazi Gov't.

by billy8 Sun Sep 16, 2007 13:41

The German film "Jud Suess" (1941) does not imply that Britain is non-Aryan or "jewified". Britain is not mentioned in "Jud Suess" anywhere and is historically completely outside the context of this film or the novels and plays which also were written on the same subject over the past hundred years. The author has mistaken this film with the 1941 German film DIE ROTHSCHILDS, which does make such accusations. Both films are available with english subtitles from ihf films.

by Hannes van der Merwe Mon Jun 08, 2009 17:19 hannes at wireworks dot co dot za

"The term concentration camp was first used by the British military during the Boer War (1899-1902). Facing attack by Boer guerrillas, British forces rounded up the Boer women and children as well as black people living on Boer land, and sent them to 34 tented camps scattered around South Africa. This was done as part of a scorched earth policy to deny the boer guerrillas access to the supplies of food and clothing they needed to continue the war.

The camps were situated at Aliwal North, Balmoral, Barberton, Belfast, Bethulie, Bloemfontein, Brandfort, East London, Heidelberg, Heilbron, Howick, Irene, Kimberley, Klerksdorp, Kroonstad, Krugersdorp, Merebank, Middelburg, Norvalspont, Nylstroom, Pietermaritzburg, Pietersburg, Pinetown, Port Elizabeth, Potchefstroom, Springfontein, Standerton, Turffontein, Vereeniging, Volksrust, Vredefort, Vryburg and Winburg.

Though they were not extermination camps, the women and children of Boer men who were still fighting were given smaller rations than others. The poor diet and inadequate hygiene led to endemic contagious diseases such as measles, typhoid and dysentery. Coupled with a shortage of medical facilities, this led to large numbers of deaths — a report after the war concluded that 27,927 Boer (of whom 22,074 were children under 16) and 14,154 black Africans had died of starvation, disease and exposure in the camps. In all, about 25% of the Boer inmates and 12% of the black African ones died (although recent research suggests that the black African deaths were underestimated and may have actually been around 20,000).
In contrast to these figures, only around 3,000 Boer men were killed (in combat) during the Second Boer War."

I am an Afrikaner living in Bloemfontein, I have traveled too about 5 of the concentration camp sites in the Free State and nothing brings chills to my spine more than seeing the sheer amount of children under the age 15 years that died from starvation and disease.

It should be said that these tactics were employed even though the British forces totaled 250 000 regular British Imperial regiment in the guerrilla war phase, and that to round up about 30 000 Boers! And what could have sparked this, the abolishment of apartheid maybe. Sorry that did not exist, yet. The evangelism of the indigenous people . Nope sorry not interested. A four letter word can be given as the definitive anser, the British call to armes the discovery of GOLD on the Witwatersrand.

For queen and country I suppose!

I cannot be sure of this but I bet if all people that died because of the expansion of Britain and the crowns influence could be counted across all colonial territories, the number of dead could surely rival the number of holocaust victims (British excluded of course).

Public opinion it appears has the swaying vote. Long live the Queen, of cowards!

Lizzie van Zyl, shortly before her death in Bloemfontein Con