Benefit for Terence Wheelock Campaign

by Wheelock suporter Fri Nov 17, 2006 14:42

anyone who ever doubted that so called progressive libertarian politics is out of touch with ordinary working class people was certainly reassured last night when the drummer of a band playing at a terence wheelock benefit got the only two locals from Sean McDermot street kicked out. One of the guys was Terence's brother and indicative of clultural class conflict at its best. I am hanging up my boots as i have no hope for the loose affiliated network of middle class activists that have no base nor foundation for their politics except for a good idea which in itself means fuck all. Fair play to the organisers of Porco Dio, this incident does not reflect what they do but it does reflect a wider and readily ignored cultural class difference that cannot be abridged unless the libertarian activist community wake up and realise that they are a sub cultural niche with no claim to inclusive, community and progressive social politics.

by c Fri Nov 17, 2006 16:31

The band involved have the utmost respect for the wheelock family and are fully aware of their situation but in strong defence of this drummer, the two men found their way to the front of the crowd and persisted sneering, provoking and were being totally derogatory towards the band.
Why should they put up with this kind of behaviour from anyone, regardless of where they're from or who they are?,
It was right of the band to address the situation, unfortunately, the situation got too aggressive and there was alot of OVER reaction from everyone who got involved.

by Karate_feetus Fri Nov 17, 2006 18:07

What happened was unfortunate, but it has shed light on some serious issues regarding the attitude toward women and the treatment of women in so-called liberal communities in Dublin.

The band members/ audience were completely right to initiate a protest against the overtly aggressive, crude, rude, abusive and inappropriate behaviour of the two men. Really, if they had any respect for the positive event that was taking place, surely they would not have been so utterly disrespectful and inappropriate as to insult the band and the benefit that was taking place on their behalf.

DO NOT make the mistake of locating the origin of the problem in the behaviour of the band members, or audience members. The problem was the calling out of sexually abusive comments and the making of sexually overt and crude gestures, and NOT the APPROPRIATE reaction from both band members and audience.

It is extremely presumptuous of the individual who has posted that first comment, to identify the two men as being the isolated members of the working class. Is it because they looked different from everyone else at the event? How naive to presume no one else involved in the incident is from a working class backround! And how condescending to excuse such vile and sexist behaviour because - as the argument implies - they are ill-equipped to behave in a civilised and respectful manner because they are from a working class area. Is that not a completely ridiculous suggestion aswell as patronising?

Those who think the important issue here was the two men being removed from the venue are ignoring the more prominent and telling issue that has been raised. The fact that the sexist behaviour was validated and ignored, the fact that the female band were totally disrespected by the two men and then by one of the organisers, the fact that the issue of sexual harassment has been conveniently removed from the above argument and the fact that the blame is now being placed on the drummer who simply acted as an person being verbally and some might say SEXUALLY HARRASSED is now being seen as the inappropriate one. Cop on!

“This incident… reflect(s) a wider and readily ignored cultural class difference that cannot be abridged unless the libertarian activist community wake up and realise that they are a sub cultural niche with no claim to inclusive, community and progressive social politics.”

Irony anyone? This incident reflects a wider and readily ignored gender and harassment issue that cannot be abridged unless the ignorant and self-righteous member(s) of the libertarian activist community wake up and realise that the issues of harassment against women (and men) are just as important, and arguably even more neglected than class issues. The response provoked by these men’s behaviour was completely appropriate and should be supported and not blamed.

by .. Fri Nov 17, 2006 18:39

'wheelock supporter' is being extremely patronising towards these mystical 'ordinary people' if s/he really thinks that issues of sexism should be ignored in efforts to connect with the 'real people', who he'd like to keep in a box and stare at. if the lad turned up and disrupted a fundraiser for the Wheelock campaign, abusing a band who agreed to play the show, then he should be bloody ashamed of himself, no matter where he comes from or how thick his accent is, or what his name is.
if the alternative is failure to confront sexism than it'll be far more than 'wheelock supporter' that choose to hang up their boots and they'll be far more missed.

by Stephen - Connected Fri Nov 17, 2006 23:20 steve at connected dot ie

What happened was anything but class discrimination. It was a case of an audience turning on a disruptive, rude and abusive element in their midst. Dragging these people's background into it is totally irrelevant and is making an excuse for anti-social behaviour, something "ordinary working class people" object to just as much as middle class activists.

A distinction along class lines is only good for market research and not much use when it comes to social interaction and basic respect for other human beings.

by b Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:19

Kicking them out solved nothing. Instead of attempting to talk to them and ask them to stop which a group of people could have done, now they have gone away probably with the same attitude as before; in fact putting them out into the street meant that instead of the gig having to deal with agressive behaviour (in what possibly could have been a positive, conflict-resolving manner) they were now outside (beyond the confines of the comfortable, insular punk scene) and more than likely pissed off at being kicked out (and possibly taken that anger out in some other, much more destructive way) of a gig for a benefit for a campaign they've been involved in and put a lot more time into than anyone else has in Kennedys.

Porco Dio says on their myspace page (a mega corporate entity owned by Rupert Murdoch, not exactly independent and alternative publishing at its finest) that the gigs are not solely about the music, and that its supposed to be a space for ideas. Well here was an opportunity to stop the music and cross some divides... but no the show must go on, the bands are here and people expect a performance for their cash (so is it just about the music then?). So the scumbags must leave, immediately.

Someone above talks about dress/class. Its a common trait amongst punk scenes the world over to deny/play down your middle class upbringing, and Dublin is no different. No amount of piercings, tattoos leather jackets and studs will wipe over that. And of course there is a group mentality that feels comfortable within itself when everyone is surrounded by other people that dress and talk and act in the same way, all cultures (sub or otherwise) practice conformity. To have that broken in a social space by people wearing tracksuits & white runners causes instant tension and even disgust. I'm surprised that Porco Dio aligned themselves with the Wheelock campaign because most punks would instantly dismiss the people involved in it as knackers or scumbags if they met them in the street.

Rant over. Good night.

by Working Classy - none Sat Nov 18, 2006 16:50

I did not witness the events of the night, though I was there for most of the night and found the security staff to be quite vigilant (no bringing your pint into the toilet sort of stuff). I would say that the fact that the individuals were removed from the gig had more to do with the intention of the bouncers to have them removed from the venue at the first given opportunity, as I observed several of the security staff giving them the evil eye all night long.

Instead of making assumptions about the politics of people that I am not personally familiar with, I will only assume that their offensive actions were made out a slight sense of insecurity, being emerged within a clique that they are not very familiar with, coupled with a generous amount of pints, and possibly some emotional frustration after gettting up on stage to inform the attenders of the conditions in which one of the individuals brothers died in Garda custody. Grief mixed with Acohol often results in negative actions.

At the end of the day, their actions were wrong and it cannot be argued that the drummer was not within her rights to confront them, but it was the bouncers who wanted them out, and by behaving in that way they gave the bouncers the excuse that they needed.

by eif Sun Nov 19, 2006 17:39

I think 'b' makes the most important suggestion here, in that kicking people out of the nightclub solves nothing. Dealing with it in another and better way is the whole point, and that isn't about excusing people who are acting like pricks.

I think ya gotta look at the outcome of the night. the gig was fundraising in solidarity with the Terence Wheelock campaign. Terence's brother and friend (his only friend and family member that came along as far as i know) get kicked out of the place with half the room chanting 'leave, leave, leave' (real sophisticated conflict resolution there!). So what was (supposedly) the point of this gig except to offer solidarity? Treating them with more respect and building trust would be better than handing them a pile of money at the end of the night. And offering respect means not calling the bouncers to deal with complicated situations. not to mention the chanting (I'm cringing just think about it), talk about a herd mentality and ganging up on people... Maybe it's just me, but I never thought acting in solidarity depended on liking the people you work with and support. It's not inherently easy to offer solidarity. Harrashing anyone is not acceptable, but in this instance, I really think getting those lads kicked out is totally counter-productive in the bigger picture. I can't imagine in such a situation that the harrashed band member/s felt actually threatened or in danger, surrounded by friends?

There's the issue of calling in the security to deal with the problem. Some issues around authority called into question here maybe? Were these bouncers known to the band as being particularly skilled in dealing with issues of harrashment? or was it the easy way out? 'NO AUTHORITY (except when it's useful)'?

And the point about class cultural differences is very relevant, even if we are more comfortable saying it's not. If those lads had different ways of talking/mannerisms (I won't say accents 'cos that's not really gonna hit the nail on the head) and were dressed like punks, would they have been treated the same? 'Of course' in theory, but from what I've seen I'm not so sure. I'd like to say no, but I have been at gig and events like this with punk-dressed people acting like complete gobshites and I've never seen bouncers called over to deal with it, or get people kicked out.

And on a personal level, I really think there should have been a bit more cop on about the personal situation of the lads and the interaction of grief and alcohol as someone mentioned. There are certain situations that call for not doing everything by the book. A bit of leeway to act like a prick without being humiliated and punished is necessary sometimes. Well, that's what I would personally have acted on in that situation.

Anyway, not a good evening for politics or solidarity or the wheelock campaign. Though maybe a good night for the music (after the lads were kicked out)?

by Jane leftist Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:12

" Irony anyone? This incident reflects a wider and readily ignored gender and harassment issue that cannot be abridged unless the ignorant and self-righteous member(s) of the libertarian activist community wake up and realise that the issues of harassment against women (and men) are just as important, and arguably even more"

I ask you one question.

Why is it that the so called libertarian communit y has a worse gender balance than the authoritarian left?

Answer: Because the wider left community are engaged in real issues that affect real people in their workplace, community etc. The libertarain activist community has evolved into a social network of friends. No amount of whining about how much you feel alienated by the men in the community can account for the reality that it is because YOU alienate them yourselves by the way you engage yourselves politically.

Secondly, anyone who claims there is not a cultural divide within the naively described ' activist community' is naive. There is a huge class divide that is reinforced by empty rhetorical rants by your one who wrote the quote i just pasted. The fact that all these so called libertarians as a mass shouted ' LEAVE LEAVE LEAVE LEAVE' as the lads were getting kicked out is an outright fucking disgrace.

But this is ok, because some guy made a sexual gesture towards a female meber of a band, god i dont know what way they bring you up in these middle class schools but if a woman cannot laugh such childish behaviour off at this stage in her life then she may lock herself up at home and throw away the key.

Get with the real world girls.

by guydebordisdead Mon Nov 20, 2006 13:45

To be fair most people attending that porco dio were punks of some variety and don't have much more than a tenuous connection to the libertarian community or libertarian politics.

It seems like the situation was handled badly but I've never seen punks handle any conflict situation well.

by anon Mon Nov 20, 2006 17:39

Friend of Terence Wheelock given suspended sentence for car theft
http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=100802
Hearing resumes into garda-cell hanging
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=20176...62852

Man dies after arrest in stolen car probe
http://news.google.ie/news/url?sa=t&ct=/0-0&fp=4561504d...62824

A 20-year-old man who died after falling unconscious in a Garda station cell had been arrested after being spotted in a stolen car, an inquest heard today.

Terrence Wheelock, from Sean O’Casey Avenue in Dublin’s Summerhill, died in hospital after he apparently attempted to hang himself at Store Street Garda station in the capital.

Dublin City Coroner’s Court heard Mr Wheelock was arrested along with three others on June 2, 2005 on suspicion of unauthorised taking of a car.

Garda Tadgh O’Leary, from Fitzgibbon Street Garda station, said gardai received a phone call from a woman on that day to report a car being brought into a back yard at Sean O’Casey Avenue and being covered with a sheet.

by Emma Mon Nov 20, 2006 17:40

I'm not sure what happened as was not there on the night but from what I have heard from people who were there the situation was handled badly and I think the libertarian community really need to analysis this class problem within the left that I feel is being ignored and I can only speak from my own experience and point of view.

I come from the same or if you like typical working class background where 90% of the family have no education, are on drugs/alcohol of some sort or locked up and live in a rough part of Dublin where there is a huge anti social and drug problem - when I first got involved in libertarian politics I noticed that almost everyone spoke differently, had a degree of some sort or were studying at third level and prior to that I had never met anyone who had a degree or believe it or not interacted with someone from a middle class backround only from my own and this was a huge culture shock for me and for a while I taught who the fuck are you to tell me about class struggle or a working class revolution with that accent and from Killiney/Booterstown or somewhere in south county dublin and the thought always and sometimes is have you ever had search in your chairs for money for bus fare bread etc and my instinct is no you have not - I cant remember now who it was but one guy even made a statement 'sure class is just a state of mind' I didn't know how to answer cos I was gobsmacked and did not know how to reply and sure maybe someone who has not known hardship or being paid friday and everything gone by friday afternoon sure how would you know that if you live off mammy and daddy - or these libertarian kids/lefties that you know dont work are not receiving social and are students but can still afford to go around Europe for a summer!!!

I know I'm more than likely going to get flack for saying this but I think it is a huge problem within the left and personally alot of the time I find it really hard to relate to people who I work with on issues - how can a person relate if your from say Ballyfermot or Darndale and you are not political and this guy/girl comes up to you talking about class struggle and will you buy my newspaper and you sound like a d4 head and go to UCD or Trinity before I got involved I would have told you to fuck off also sometimes I think for younger lefties/punks/lifestylists/libertarian being involved is like a passing phase.

I have problems with this class difference and I know some are trying to deny its there but it is and it needs to be addressed - how many cleaners, postmen, bus drivers are in left organisation not many or if any at all and you cannot a have a middle class revolution cos at the moment thats what it is middle class telling the proles about the working class revolution.

Maybe this is not the place to bring it up but it is a problem and it is possible the crowd were there for the music - but question was it not a anarchist feminist band playing? and is it not a bit patronising to say they cant look after themselves? -

by Attila The Pun Mon Nov 20, 2006 18:16

Hi. I was at the gig. But I have no interest in being an anarchist, libertarian, or whatnot.
And I don't feel like slagging them off, today.
I like Party Weirdo. They're pretty, they're talented, and they bought me a 7up. So having declared my vested interests!!, I will address anyone who has attempted to shovel the blame for the incident onto the band, or the audience.

---------
Wheelock supporter -
I see you blame the drummer for what happened. It seems that the band, the audience, and the bouncers disagreed.

---------
Cian -
I know for a fact that the real Cian would rather listen to REM that join the Socialist Party..

---------
b -
kicking those guys out did solve something. The audience wanted them to stop annoying everybody else. The venue wanted the same. This was accomplished. You suggest that a group of people should have somehow gotten together and somehow resolved the issue in a positive manner. I know exactly what you're getting at, but unless you have run a successful club in the manner of 'collective punter action', as a regular punter myself, I am not interested in these theories.
And to be slightly mischevious, it seems to me that a group of people (ie the bouncers), did indeed somehow get together collectively and resolve the issue in what seemed to most people there at the time to be quite a positive manner..

Also, you link the cause of the disturbance to a generalised 'breaking' of some group mentality. This seems highly disingenous, or perhaps indicates how far from reality that your analysis has taken you. What you did not acknowledge was that the disturbance was caused by real and persistent sexist behaviour towards a few real people.

----------
eif -
You say we 'gotta' look at the outcome of the night. I don't think there is anybody here not looking the outcome???. What you have done though, is to manufacture a particularly narrow view of the 'outcome' - The hero for you is the Wheelock brother (and his friend, the lower class everyman), the villains are the audience (and also the band and venue).

Let me illustrate:
Throughout your first three paragraphs the lads are ganged up on, kicked out in an unsophisticated way, denied respect, robbed of the trust that they seem to need, and all the while that dastardly audience is snitching to the authorities and failing in their duty of solidarity.
And in your fourth paragraph comes the almost inevitable insinuation of a sneaky prejudice, again by that audience, towards these lads who are just that little bit different.
Paragraph 5 pleads for more 'cop on' from that rat bag audience, and their vile habit of doing everything 'by the book' even in complex situations.

Well anyway, Although it might make for a good film, I'm not sure how willing you might be to revise your picture of what actually happened. Perhaps I should put a few revisions in 'tabloid' format which you appear to be fond of: Benefit for the campaign ('Big Turnout, Cash Windfall'), Benefit for the audience ('Sexist Troublemakers Booted'), feminism ('Feisty Drummer Kicks Ass'), the venue ('Riot Avoided'), the Anarchists ('Collective Action By Audience'), and last but not least, for the two lads himself ('We Were Insulting and Abusive And Got What We Deserved On The Night').

-------------
Jane Leftist-
You do ask an interesting question: "Why is it that the so called libertarian community has a worse gender balance than the authoritarian left?".
However you fail to answer the question in any significant way, but rather simply allege that the fault is with an (unexplained) apparently counterproductive way in which libertarian females generally engage themselves politically.
Your theory that there is a'social network' of liberterians, your allegation that the libertarians are not engaged in 'real' issues, and your accusation that KF is 'whining' in some way, are simply not relevant to your own question.

In your fifth paragraph, you make more allegations: that KF has been making 'empty rhetorical rants', and that these rants are reinforcing a class divide. Again these allegations are left unexplained.

Regarding your sixth paragraph, nobody else so far has suggested that it was just one gesture. In fact it seems to have been a persistent over a space of time during the gig. In the 'real world', that is generally aggreed to be sexual harrassment, and not considered acceptable in the 'real world' which we live in.

Perhaps you should get with that.

by anon Mon Nov 20, 2006 19:10

One thing for certain is that there is a huge cultural gap between the so-called working class and middle class, except the term working class is often used in a too narrow term. There is this idea that if someone finds something offensive about what a 'working class' person says or does that because we are all part of the Left, we should just gloss over it. I don't think we should. We are trying to push society forward and make it a better and more mature place and allowing inmature behaviour is not a step forward. The behaviour reported from the other night to me speaks of ignorance and base male machoism. Why are we not allowed speak of this and yet on the other hand we seem to all agree that the working class are suppressed or neglected which is bound to be a cause for such behaviour in degraded environments. Are we to propose that we should drop all progress in sexism and equality because we might offend or be too righteous to ask it of the rougher elements of society? We can only progress if everyone progresses.

This incident the other night has raised so many issues that never get discussed and I find it important for that reason alone. What I find curious is why the working class are not forming their own progressive political groups and organisations? When they do form or join political groups, they overwhelming seem to join reactionary groups or mobs. Why is this so? There is also this myth that previous revolutions only involved the working class. I find that hard to believe and reality is usually a lot messier. For example Marx was definitely not working class and yet we have this ridiculous notion that revolutions are an exclusive preserve of the working class. In a Marxists definition that would include most people and more or less correct, but in the way it is bandied about it is implied it is only for people from certain parts of Dublin (e.g Tallaght, Ballymum, Darndale, Finglas etc) in the Irish context. Anyone not living in a terraced house or flat is excluded. What people seem to suggest is that the middle class and their mindset will still exist after the revolution unless its planned to eliminate them which would not make it much of a progressive revolution.

There are many reasons for the differences in behaviour between these two cultures and I find it quite hard to pin down the reasons why? It's not enough to say its because they are poorer. They are not the sole reasons. There is poverty of resources and encouragement too. Of course it doesn't help that working class communities are wracked by drugs and that just suits the political order just fine.

It would be worthwhile if Emma would respond to this and tell us what led her to the Left. Was she the only one of her peers? And if so, is she now viewed by them with suspicion, indifference or looked up to? If she doesn't like middle class people explaining class theory to her, is this because she finds it offensive for such people to be telling her something or is it the theory, or is the theory explained out of context. How would you then explain it to people in working class neighbours or do you think they even ought to know about it?

You seemed to start out saying, you joined the Left and ....but got stuck on the impact of the cultural clash, but it would be good if you could finish and tell us if indeed you have gained anything or learnt anything?

by noel Mon Nov 20, 2006 22:08

Well are people getting away from the piont of what happend terence wheelock and his tragic death at the hands of the gardai and all the other deaths that have never been investigated by the state and the human rights abuses that are perpetrated by the gardai on working class people.
white runners or not for gods sake, this sounds like a debate on dress codes,are the better of class really that afraid of innercity people.
what about the emergence of the big brother state in these communitys the powers of arrests on the youth in these area, the powers of dublin city council overs its tenents and the influence of the gardai about who get homes of the council and who gets evicted.
The widespread use and abuse of cctv over tenents the selective way its used.The wheelocks had cctv outside their home but was not working when they were assaulted it was claimed by gardai. Thank god for camera phones.
people should wake up to the power of the state and this consummer society, and put away their petty differences wow so some one was drunk acted the ejit happens everywhere, get real. sounds like alot of egos are hurt.
A young man was killed in garda custody accident or not and the family deserve answers in the interest of the irish people they should get them and we should support them. The police are to powerful and corrupt in this country it is this corruption which has crime out of control.

by Emma Tue Nov 21, 2006 18:22

I think the term working class can be defined by people in many different ways and means different things to all of us it can be were your from, backround and education etc.

If anyone makes a racist sexist remark from working class or middle class backround of course it has to be challenged and at any available oppurtunity - I was not there so I cannot comment much on what happened but from a 'left' crowd it seems to of being handled badly and it was a benefit for Terence Wheelock and maybe that is being forgotten.

"This incident the other night has raised so many issues that never get discussed and I find it important for that reason alone. What I find curious is why the working class are not forming their own progressive political groups and organisations?"

What do you mean by this comment? that working class communities/people should form their own political groups or outside of the left? it seems to be we and them from what your saying. What groups or mobs? do you mean kids standing around corners or can you give me a specific example?

I do not hink there is a myth of previous revolutions started by the working class or even theory I am not a marxist but I know from reading what type of backround Marx was from and that can be said for the likes of Peter Kropotkin too - the Irish 'revolution' or prominent Irish figures in history were not from deprived backrounds so most people who would have a reasonal amount of historiacl or political knowledge would know this so therefore I don't think it is a myth

I think the level of education has a lot to do with this for instance 'free' third level fees were only recently introduced and if you are from a working class backround having an education gives you an advantage in many ways - I find it hard to believe you find it hard to believe you find it hard to pin down reasons why this is is existence - we live a hierarchial society and if you are from a certain backround there is going to be a certain amount of conditioning from society and you will percieve things and people in a certain way that may not be correct.

I was just expalining from my point of view and joining an organisation and my initial first impression and I think if someone from similar backround may experience the same thing and be put off as I was at the start and I have been for some time political without knowing so from the age of 12 when I refused to make my confirmation and was threatened with not being able to continue to secondary school but at the time I did not realise this was political and there was not said time or date when it started it was just circumstances and friends and family did see it odd for awhile espaecially as I consider myself an anarchist.

At that paticular time cos I had never interacted with people from a middle class backround or who had a degree I found it intimidating and sometimes patronising but later getting to know most of the people I discovered they were a great bunch and I have learnt a lot form them and they infuenced me politically in many ways and I am thankful for that.

I suppose we all have certain perception of one another that are wrong and we need to get over our own insecurities of where we are from backround etc and I do think it is a problem within the left cos a large percentage of people involved are from well educated middle class backrounds and again for a working class revolution that is constantly talked and wrote about by lefties we are missing the element of the working class being involved and I think not many people involved in the left are active in their own communities and this could have alot to do with it and are sort or can be involved in the abstract.

Hopefully something will be learned from the incident and it can be addressed and maybe more people on the night will suport the Wheelock family.

by Ciaron Tue Nov 21, 2006 18:50

OK, I know this suggestion is going to sound like it comes out of left field, but...

If you're saying this is a libertarian community function.
The word community gets thrown around pretty loosely these daze, I've heard the term the "intelligence community", the "terroist community" used over the couple of years so go figure.

But an idea that migh be worth mulling over to decrease the reliance on bouncers at such events, come form some of the black churches I use to frequent in the U.S.

They have ushers who engage new people and introduce them to regulars, so people don't end up feeling like a shag on a rock and bounce off what otherwise could be a familiar in group. This can serve as karma patrol if things get a little untoward asd the evening progresses and the possibilities of new folks undertsanding what the space is about (women safe, gay safe, kid safe whatever safe).

If you are trying to build an inclusive libertarian community in Dublin with these gigs that cross boundaries of class, sexual orientation, faith/no faith, ethnicity (it's a pretty white crew at the moment!) some form of this role might be worth comsidering

by anon Wed Nov 22, 2006 15:51

Are left wing organisations chock full of the middle class (and lets face it the rich) actually a hindrance to the growth of working class organisations?

by Emma Wed Nov 22, 2006 16:08

I think Ciaron makes a good point and idea but not sure how it would work.

"Are left wing organisations chock full of the middle class (and lets face it the rich) actually a hindrance to the growth of working class organisations?"

Though the purpose of left wing organisations is that they are suppose to be working class that doesn't make sense??!!

by anon Wed Nov 22, 2006 16:27

Maybe they are supposed to be for working class people (though I think that is a maybe) but if you look at the Labour Party that is run by middle class people. The Socialist Workers is run by middle class people, the Workers Solidarity Movement is run by middle class people. Do these groups help or hinder the development of working class struggles.

I have never understood middle class kids who were left wing before they had ever had a job.

Also lots of working class kids go to third level now unless they are being bussed in from Foxrock to Blachardstwon IT.

by Emma Wed Nov 22, 2006 16:48

I think groups highlight struggles in the community and members of SP or WSM have participated in campaigns and still continue to do great work - and from experience and being a former member of WSM (great bunch of people!) the group is made up from people from all different backrounds so to say all of the people involved are middleclass would be wrong

"I have never understood middle class kids who were left wing before they had ever had a job"

Now there are so many resources to access information like the internet and I think more so now even the last couple of years information has become more accessable - I dont think you have to be left wing by working I dont think that argument holds much weight although I do think I understand what you are trying to say

by anon Wed Nov 22, 2006 17:03

I don't think that the only working class people are in council houses. But if you are priveliged and never had a job where does left wing politcs come from. It is just an emotional or intellectual reaction. If it is to do with helping others than it is not revolutionary it is charitable.

by Joe Wed Nov 22, 2006 17:30

Anon you highlight what to me is the major political problem with this thread, the de facto definition of working class that is being used. This appears to be a very restrictive definition which probably excludes the majority of the working class by which I mean that section (the vast majority) of the population which has to work to get an income or is dependent on someone who is working.

The term can of course be used in the way it is being used in this thread, to indicate the sections of the working class in low paid manual or service sector jobs or in long term unemployment. This is pretty much the socological and advertising defintion of working class and that sector is certainly under represented across the left particularly when you exclude the few people from that sector who go to university. On the other hand the university educated 'white collar' and technical workers and their childred are massively over represented.

But the actual middle class (shopkeepers, self employed doctors/lawyers/plumbers, managers etc) isn't really very common on the left at all. Actually the off spring of sections of the ruling class are probably almost as common.

The left clearly does not accurately reflect the make up of the working class but we are doing ourselves no favours when we describe large sections of it as 'middle class'. This is really just repeating the 'we are all middle class now' with a left gloss.

by puzzled Wed Nov 22, 2006 17:42

Is a "self-employed plumber" or a self-employed taxi-driver really middle class? What if they earn about 25,000 a year and scrape by?

Definitions of class are notoriously slippy.

by Pushkin Wed Nov 22, 2006 17:47

The only people who would believe that a plumber or taxi driver earns only €25k a year seem to be the Revenue Commissioners. Like many self employed the cab drivers do not make genuine tax returns.

I remember when I worked in a certain Government office and a Donegal taxi driver claimed he only earned £15 a week!

by Joe Wed Nov 22, 2006 18:04

Is a "self-employed plumber" or a self-employed taxi-driver really middle class?

Yeah I thought that might get a reaction.

Leaving aside Pushkins point about real income its really about questions of differences of interest.

As a clear example consider the statement often made by everyone on the left that PAYE workers should too much of the tax burden. This is never a demand that there should be less tax collected, the same groups call for more money for health, education etc.

Now whether you work packing boxes or stamping forms this is a demand you will support because you are a PAYE worker.

But if you work at plumbing in dishwashers and washing machines the implementation of this demand means that business (including the self-employed) is going to be paying over more of its income in tax, exactly how is not important. It doesn't matter what accent you have or where you live or when your education stopped - you'll probably be against this. On the other hand this loss would probably be wiped out by the improvement in education, healthcare etc. Thats the nature of the real middle class - its harder to know whether basic socialist demands will leave you better or worse off. Individuals balancing these two factors up will side with one class or another depending on a lot of things (this is also why the middle class shouldn't simply be written off)

In terms of the fight for socialism its not so much accents that matter but peoples relationship with the means of production. Do they have to work for others, do they work for themselves, or do other people work for them?

That said a struggle for socialism that only involves one section of the working class (whether that is the manual section of 'white collar' section) will be doomed to failure because it will represent a minority of society.

It seems obvious to me that the sort of definitions of class socialists need to use are those that reflect this reality, not the reality of those who want to identify which group to aim a particular advert at.

by anon Wed Nov 22, 2006 18:26

I always think of plumbers and electricians when people talk about third level. You make more money as a plumber or an electrician than you do as almost any kind of white collar worker. But not every kind accountants, doctors, lawyers all make more than any tradesman.

But the excluded are certainly under represented in left wing organisations, the ruling class are there as is their right from Ruari Quinn, to Richard Boyd Barret. But it is weasel words to say that we all work thererfore we are working class.
If I work in a university as an engineering professor three days a week 65000 a year and all the consultancy I can handle and you work as a solicitor 90 hours a week 400000 a year and she works as a cleaner 28 hours a week an 15500 a year are we all really in the same boat. Me and the lawyer are building up alot of money we can't spend (or don't have to spend) for one thing.

And if the cleaners son, the professor's son and the lawyers son are all in the same left wing campaign who is going to be talking and talking talking.

by anon Wed Nov 22, 2006 18:32

of course if your a plumber it is easy to get other people to work for you. then you can really cream it.
But are you really saying that the legal secretary and the junior solicitor are in the same social class.
Lets say a 27 year old legal secretary on 32000 a year
and a 27 year old solicitor on 31000 a year
both work for a 54 year old solicitor on 310000 a year (incl pension contributuons)

are you really going to claim that they are in the same social class.

also why do rich kids become left wing when they have never had a jib, their politics is not personal. Why was it seen as appropriatre to kick trevor wheelocks brother out of the punk gig. who thought that porco dio was a good name for a left wing group. does it not exclude people isn''t that its purpise, aren't thse people just a bunch of rich kids playing at revolution.

by Joe Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:23

I won't say anything on the gig as I wasn't there and as above I'm not sure how much you can draw from a row in a pub past midnight. I rather suspect thought that two lawyers in suits would have received the same reaction from the crowd, crowd reaction was probably more down to how punks (or any subculture) tend to react to peoplke from outsdie that sub culture rather than what class they perceived those outsiders as being from. A good reason why its a bad idea to identify a particular set of political ideas with a particular sub culture.

As to the other questions.

Well first off we need to reject the idea that the working class is a homogenous body without differences. Even in economic terms there will be those long term unemployed, those on minimum wage, those on the average industrial wage (30,000 in 2004) and those earning a multiple of that.

OIf your living off 130 a week that someone earning 30k a year is going to be a whole lot better off but we can probably agree that both are part of the working class despite the five fold gap in income. So what about someone earning twice or three times the average industrial wage?

Wages don't really tell us much on their own because they are a continuous spectrum.

I'm not sure I understand the point about various legal jobs fully. In your second example though its appers the 54 year old is an employer so pretty clearly either middle class or ruling class before you even take salary into account. He's the boss the other two work for him.

There are a small number of very highly paid PAYE workers (Gerry Ryan or Pat Kenny for instance) who may not be employers. However unless such people are blowing it all on coke the odds are they are accumulating a lot of capital themselves either in property or shares. Pat earns 900k a year, at a pretty lousy return rate of 5% only one years salary invested would give him an income of 47k. Your sample lawyer is probably doing the same thing. So I reckon such workers pretty soon become part of the real middle class or even ruling class based on their investments. If you can live off your income as a landlord or the shares you own you no longer working class even if you happen to choose to work. The point is they have that choice. Likewise your professor with all his consultancy work is obviously also self-employed and perhaps part of the middle class on that basis. All these examples however are very atypical of the vast majority of PAYE workers, it would be a bad idea to base a definition on the top 5% of PAYE earners rather that the other 95%.

by not convinced Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:32

I was once self-employed and made about 20,000 a year. Was I middle class cos I was self-employed?

Let's take a tricky example: let's say I'm a self-employed window cleaner living and working in Ballymun. I clean windows in the area, do a few other odd jobs, and barely get by. Am I middle class simply because I'm self-employed?

Also are those working on a low-paid self-employed basis in the sevices sector really 'enjoying' a different relationship to the means of production than, say, an employed solicitor. Are they middle class (the window cleaner, for instance) while he or she is working class?

by Stat monkey Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:43

There was a story in the Sunday Business Post a few months ago about income levels, they reported that 61% of wage and salary earners in Ireland earn either the average industrial wage (roughly 30 grand) or less. The impression you'd get from media commentators (David McWilliams is a prime example) is that the majority of people are earning big bucks, buying flash new cars, eating out in restaurants all the time and taking expensive foreign holidays. But the stats don't bear that out. The people who fit the stereotype of "middle class" (in other words, people who are really affluent, not just doing a bit better than manual workers) are a minority - but obviously advertisers are going to cater to them, since they have a lot of spare income, and it suits politicians to cater to them, because it keeps politics anchored firmly to the right.

by not convinced Thu Nov 23, 2006 13:05

Most doctors and all university lecturers are employed. They are not self-employed or employers (some doctors are, but not most). Can they really be considered working class? Is a university lecturer working class? I don't think so.

by Joe Thu Nov 23, 2006 13:40

Is a university lecturer working class? I don't think so.

Why?

I'd guess because you have the common misconception that all lecturer's are taking home huge pots of money for very little work.

The reality is that a huge number are on one or two year contacts and earning around the average industrial wage (30k). Some of those over time get promoted. And some of those get promoted again. So there is a layer at the top earning say 80k a year but this is probably less than 10% of lecturers.

Its a bit like the bank. There are bank managers earning 80k but that doesn't mean the women behind the screen earns this. If shes lucky and gets throught a couple of rounds of promotion she might in 20 years but most don't.

In terms of is someone earning 20k a year washing windows 'middle class'. The presumption behind this question is that middle class = well off. You could draw up a class system in this way, the standard one advertisers use seems quite close to this. If you want to sell sports cars and want to identify that section of the population who can afford one this makes a lot of sense.

If instead you want a class system that tells you whether someone is likely to be for or against tax inspectors making sure the self employed pay tax on all their income then one based on whether someone is an employer, self employed or working for someone else probably makes more sense.

The other point is that people seem to expect a perfect model of class that everyone would neatly slot into. This could never exist, any system of classification will have those who don't really seem to fit. The counter examples provided here are a tiny percentage of the population.

by not convinced Thu Nov 23, 2006 13:44

So, university lecturers are working class and window cleaners are middle class?

Joe, are you sure your name isn't Kieran A.?

by Joe Thu Nov 23, 2006 14:19

Nope I'm not KA and I'm also neither a window cleaner or a lecturer.

That aside I gave you a serious response and would expect a serious reply, not a retreat to common sense. This is pretty much the sort of common sense that allows Bertie to pose as a 'man of the people' while earning quater of a million in a job which comprises issuing orders to the rest of us.

All that aside I think the problem is like others on this thread you want 'middle class' to equal bad. I don't - I'd say our 20k a year window cleaner is an obvious ally of the working class because of his income. He might have different interests in terms of tax enforcement from the working class but he has identical interests in terms of putting money into health care or eduction. He was probably opposed to the bin tax.

One of the unfortuanate consequences of the left reducing middle class to a term of insult is that it acts as a barrier when it comes to seeking to bring over a section of the middle class when the working class enters into struggle.

by anon Thu Nov 23, 2006 14:29

what about the fact the legal secretary and the junior solicitor have different expectations about the future. The junior solicitor if she works 70 hour weeks and is utterly conformist can expect (unless unlucky) to be earning 310K in 15 years the legal secretary might be earning 46K.
Now when enough people imagine that they will be rich in the future they identify their interests with those of the rich. So they don't want the rich taxed because they don't want to have to pay taxes on the hundreds of thousands they will be earning in the future.

by Joe Thu Nov 23, 2006 15:06

Ah so that is what the original exacple of law was about. As I said any model will have exceptions and that ten fold increase in pay is one hell of an exception. I thought that sort of thing was limited to sports and Hollywood.

Is the percentage who make it high or is there a very high failure / drop out rate?

by Stat monkey Thu Nov 23, 2006 15:14

Don't know bout solicitors, but barristers are an interesting case - the average wage for a barrister is over 200 grand a year, but 40% get the average industrial wage or less, while ten per cent get below 10 grand a year. These are the junior ones usually, so it more or less ensures that you can only last the pace as a barrister if you can live off your family or go into debt - helps ensure a very narrow social background among our learned friends

by Sally Creagh Thu Nov 23, 2006 15:42

Yes, that was made pretty clear in the RTE documentary 'Legal Eagles'. If you don't have financial backup, which is usually from family, forget being a barrister. There was a woman in that documentary working hard to become a barrister who had to work to support herself by working in the Civil Service. She ended up having drop out because they dropped the night course at King's Inns and made it daytime only. Her classmates were clearly living in a world of their own, talking about preserving the traditions - you could have actually quite easily replaced the word 'privilege' with traditions if you listened to the often vacuous, self-satisfied conversations that were filmed.

Not only does it take time to train in, but once you are called to the bar, it can take years to develop a practice, and some don't even succeed at all. Unless your background is reasonably well heeled and you have financial backup from family, you're taking a huge risk. I doubt many banks would give people a loan on the basis that they just might turn out to be a talented and respected barrister. It's a perpetuation of privilege in the truest sense of the word. That's why many barristers are the children of lawyers, or the children of the wealthy.

It's a problem, in terms of bias in the judiciary. There are some great barristers out there, but the odds are against too many of them understanding the problems that economic disadvantage can create, and many of these problems are played out in the courtroom. The cycle of privilege generally doesn't understand the cycle of disadvantage, and so on it goes.

by anon Thu Nov 23, 2006 15:43

Average earinings after 7 years for barristers are 70K. The solicitor example I gave above would be in a big Dublin firm, but the average earnings for solicitors are very high 80K I believe. Of course some earn much much more and some less.
Forget the legal business for a minute.
What I really mean is some people on the average industrial wage will never earn much more. Some will earn much more. In this country alot of people who will never earn much more believe that they will and identify their interests with the rich. So on this wbsite most people think that's idiotic.

But at the same time many people from very poor backgrounds, even people who would happily live in and the area they grew up socialise with people from the area they grew up don't have the same interests as the very poor.

don't we now live in a country where everyone can save? Who has to scrabble for money, the lazy, the mad, alcoholics, those who can't look after look after themselves?

If you are trying to connect with those who are the poorest who have nothing to lose maybe italian in jokes and braying south dublin voices aren't the way to do it.

by Sally Creagh Thu Nov 23, 2006 16:05

'Average earinings after 7 years for barristers are 70K.'

That's for those trained barristers who actually manage to get a practice up and running, which is no easy task, and some have to give up.

Apart from that, anon, I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make ...

by anon Thu Nov 23, 2006 19:43

The State Pathologist has told the Dublin City Coroner's Court that a man who was found hanging in a cell at Store Street Garda Station in Dublin died over three months later in hospital as a result of pneumonia.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1122/wheelockt.html

by sinead - human rights watch Thu Nov 23, 2006 20:18

Yesterday the inquest of terence wheelock came to a dramatic halt, as state phatholgist marie cassidy heard from wheelocks legal council that they had thirty five pictures of bruises, abrasions and minor larcerations to terence wheelocks body they were taken on the 3/6/05 the following day, she had stated that there was no bruises on terence wheelocks body .
although wheelocks body was examined by her two months later his body while in a coma healed itsself in her opinion, she was'nt aware of the photos even though it was in her personal notes rread out to the court, she stated it was an oversight on her behalf. and information was very limited to her
The states forensic lab scientist told the court that he found blood on terence wheelocks teeshirt tracksuit bottoms and underwear.
questioned by council for the wheelock family sean gillane of ferrys, did he test the blood to ascertain wheather it was indeed mr wheelocks, he said he did'nt.
asked why he did not, he told the court that superintendent oliver hanley had instructed him to test only the ligature, when pressed, it was potential crime and this was his job, he stated he never thought to do so.
A witness also told the court, simon doherty of summerhill who was arrested along with terence wheelock on that day, that wheelock had been assaulted by gardai upon arrest hitting his head on the garda van and twisting an already broken arm, he stated that terence had nothing to do with the theft of the car and was arrested in a garden.
he stated the although he did not witness any assault in the station while in the cell next to mr wheelock he heard scuffles and a commotion and talk of a mobile phone.
earlier gardai sinead brosnan, tadgh oleary and garda steve mulqueen ,sgt healy, alstated that terence wheelock was in good spirits when arrested and treated well, although their version of events differed to alarge extent.
all said that they notice no injuries or bruises on mr wheelock
forensic evidence and photgraphs produced yesterday contradict this.
coroner brian farrel the phots were a revelation pluss the evidence of the states forensic scientist he postponed the inquest to give marie cassidy time to review her evidence in light of the evidence befor the coroner. the inquest continues on the 15 of dec next month..

by Fiery S Fri Nov 24, 2006 14:21

"I have never understood middle class kids who were left wing before they had ever had a job."

It's guilt. Nothing more. They all grow out of it eventually.

by jane Fri Nov 24, 2006 16:49

cant understand the wheelock family should take to the streets in outrage at these latest revelations, at the coroners court, i mean COME ON thirthy five photos and the state forensic scientist stating he found blood on wheelocks top, bottoms, and shorts, there was clearly an assault on this young man.
The Gardai are looking increasinly at a potentail donegal or wheelockgate marie cassidy said she saw no bruises and was made look foolish when it was revealed that there was 35 photos at hand to her listing extensive bruising on the lads body.
they adjourned the case so she can "review her submissions"

I for one feel outraged at what this lad must of suffered befor he died, the witness simon doherty said that gardai were lying when the said wheelock(20) was well treated.
he said he witnessed them assaulting the lad.
Human rights abuse have been going on in this country for decades by the police force of this country there seems to be an escalation of violence in the gardai as discipline had broken down insuburbination is rife. heads must be brought to the fore and criminal charges brought against gardai in relation to the wheelock case in light of the new evidence befor the coroner
maybe then we can crack this mafia like wall of silence that is prevalent in the gardai.
Good luck to the wheelock family.

by Miss K Fri Nov 24, 2006 22:03

just to play Devil's Advocate - say Mr Wheelock was assaulted at some point close to the time of his arrest, this does not mean that the Gardai were the ones who assaulted him. After all, the young man in question had previous convictions for assault and theft, perhaps in the course of his activities he got hurt?

Say the Gardai did assault him - are people saying that this was the cause of death, not his suicide? Are people saying that the Gardai faked the suicide? This doesn't seem very likely.

I feel sorry for his family and for this man, he was too young to die.

by sinead - human rights watch Sat Nov 25, 2006 18:43

The inquest heard from seven different gardai in sworn evidence over two days from garda tadgh o'leary, garda liz brosnan, garda steve mulqueen, a sgt declan healy, garda sinead power, garda mary murphy, garda inspec johnson that under no piont during terence wheelock arrest was he miss treated. They also said mr wheelock was very passive when arrested.
All gardai stated, while mr wheelock was detained and stripped searched they did not see any bruises and in fact stated there was none on his body, nor did they notice any blood on him or his clothes during mr wheelocks stripsearch , what soever,.
This was stated in sworn evidence to the coroners court.
When grilled by council for the wheelock family by mr sean gillane were they absolutely sure of this?
they said they were,
and went on to say that mr wheelock was in good spirits.
And went on to say that if there was any marks or bruises they would of been logged in their custody record. garda liz brosnon stated that the custody record was like the "bible" to gardai.
However on the third day council for the wheelock family produced photos of the deceased body, thirty five in all taken in the matear on the day after his admittance (3/6/05) by staff there, showing "extensive" bruises marks and abrasions, in a matear hospital report it was concluded that they coincided with time of arrest or there abouts"
Also the states forensic scientist produced the deceased clothes in the court but could not take them out of a sealed bag for " health and safety reasons" asked why by the coroner , he told the court that there was blood on the deceased top, bottoms , and shorts.
This is now on public record.
So tell me miss k . WHERE did these bruises come from? and more importantly did the blood come from? i for one find it incredible that seven garda witness's with trained eyes could of missed these very important details, after strip searching and seen the young lad naked failed to notice any bruising or marks or blood on the suspects body and clothes. yet there supposedly investigating a crime?
Draw your own conclusions...after listening to the evidence from gardai and hearing and seeing the actual facts which differ greatly from the gardai, gardai had consistently contradicted each others version of events.
and by the way i didn't know wheelock is now a violent offender, where did you get your data?