Our Racist Nation

by Lynchmob Wed Mar 22, 2006 21:23

This is all over the place. I appreciate what you are trying to do, but really, it needs to be a bit more coherent. Also, that image of McDowell ... I don't like the man but I don't think he's a rascist.

by Mr. T. Wed Mar 22, 2006 23:00

Mr. Ryan, your article is in dire need of a patient editor with a large degree of commitment and spare time. I spent more than 10 minutes hacking through the first 20 paragraphs with a machete before realising the piece lacks coherence or a point. I ultimately had to give up out of frustration.

I would have gladly attempted a rejoinder had I the foggiest notion of the point you were attempting to make. But I must leave that unenviable task to someone far more clever and patient than myself.

by Lady Bracknell Wed Mar 22, 2006 23:21

I don't like the man but I don't think he's a rascist.

then you haven't been paying much attention

(link: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/65954 )

actually he's more of a demagogue (link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue) than a racist. He uses racist tactics only when it's expedient.

by Lady Bracknell Wed Mar 22, 2006 23:56

with your blanket-labelling of our esteemed guardians-of-the-peace as being racist. Some are some aren't.

though I do have to admit I was in Store Street Station, (just visiting, honest ;-) while a Black lady was being verbally abused by the Garda booking her. She was charged with stealing a mobile phone. Before he finished booking her, news came through from the store where she was picked up that they had got it wrong and she was innocent.

At great risk to myself :-) I informed her that she had a great case to take to court, (compensation and all that). A Senior Garda overheard and rushed over to assure her that any legal case she might persue would be against the store and not the Garda Siochana, despite the fact that moments beforehand a Garda had been verbally abusing her. He wasn't quite racist, but came close

by Seán Ryan Thu Mar 23, 2006 03:39

I wouldn't say that all our guardians are racist. I know many who aren't. But the system itself is.

I witnessed a courtcase recently - http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74201 - and I didn't report this particular event at the time, because I felt it might detract from the main topic. And I didn't report it because I thought it to be typical.

A young asian man was in the dock applying to get his driving license back after having been disqualified for some period. He'd been disqualified for a drink driving incident. He had a very rudimentary grasp of English, and hadn't a clue as to what his solicitor was going on about, not to mention any other part of the proceedings. At one point his exasperated solicitor having failed in her attempt to get her client to acknowledge that he recognised his drink driving offense to have been an immoral and illegal thing, said to him, 'Do you think drinking and driving is a good thing?' To which he replied 'yes.' Everybody in the court laughed, including myself I hate to admit, I think for most of us it was a nervous laughter; we'd just watched a needless nightmare enfold in front of this poor man. Twas like 'Midnight Express.' Some laughed I believe because they enjoyed this dignity stripping exercise. The judge, I'm very happy to say, was the only person other than the asian gentleman not to have laughed.

During the same sitting another foerign gentleman was in the dock. The prosecution and court in general were quite happy to let this gentleman's friend act as an interpreter for him and the court. This interpreter did not have a clue. He was translating complex statements made by the court, into four and five word sentences. Thankfully the judge was not very impressed with all this and ordered the court to get an interpreter and then he put the case back.

Plenty of good people within the justice system. But not enough to tame it.

As for McDowell being a demagogue (excellent word), I think it's closer a description of him than a racist. I see him in much simpler terms I'm afraid. I see him as a mad whore.

by Plato Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:34

Can I ask one question the colonisation of America Canada and Austrailia to the destruction of the indigenous populations was that racism?
If so why do you wish for the re-colonisation and re-partition of Ireland by foreign aliens to the detriment of the common good?
Do you really wish for the disappearance of the Irish people as a great nation?
You in fact are the real racists positively discriminating against your own kin.
In fact the Immigration issue is not a matter of Life or death but of the very survival of the Irish spirit after 400 years of struggle.
You Marxists fool the working classes with your crocidile tears , but the fact of the Matter is that the working Irish Class is gradually awaking to this Hocus Pocus self destructive philosophy of yours and will eventually be stirred like a sleeping Giant.
Essentially what all you Liberal/Marxists state is a hypocritical assumption that by destroying the Irish cultural cohesivenes you will somehow create a Lenninist Cosmopolitan Utopia.
Irish people's common sense will prevail, and what you and your cohorts in the Liberal establishment and media have been doing will treasonously be tried in due course when the coming period of common sense prevails. A great movement of real Conservatives and Patriots is bubbling at the surface, about to be reawakened and O'leary will no longer turn in his grave.....
Erin Go Braigh

by Blaise Thu Mar 23, 2006 16:09

Plato brings up some interesting points - well taken - but the problem is - once this thing - this multicultural thing - gets underway - it's impossible to stop - this welcome or unwelcome diversity - is a machine - fuelled by the legal system which protects and nurtures the continual flow of immigration until you are left with - something like Canada - where it appears only Newfoundlanders and Quebecers know who they are. The Newfoundlanders don't get a chance to be considered racists because they are too poor for people to emigrate there. Quebecers are well known to be on the whole, very protective of their culture. The rest of the country is open season for all races - the original indigenes have all been reduced to the walking wounded or cordoned off on their out of touch reservations.

The term 'tolerant' is interesting because basically it means you don't like mingling with other cultures but because of the legal requirements of your society - you will tolerate them. Hardly a love call to other cultures. The cultural mosaic is a wild experiment - piting tribes against tribes - until the indigenous tribes gives in - to the great cultural invade - which will pervade until it wins - and ironically it is the cultural invader who will keep his tribal customs (dress and religion protection by law). Irish people know who they are, or do they? Is it that bog man they recently dug up with his teeth intact from mileniums ago - or is it the ginger haired, freckled faced young boy next door? Or is it that fellow with the turban who was raised here and sounds a lot more Irish than those St Patrick's day Americans from a marching band society of Boston?

People of all cultures will always head off to fruitful shores to find work and provide for their families. Nothing new about that. Didn't the Irish head off to England and America to do the same. Britain is so multicultural that, I heard a Muslim say recently, the English (the white English) really should have no say in British law. Basically what the new immigrant is saying is that within time, we will wash your Irishness away. We will have your accent, maybe even learn Irish, who knows, and then you will be white Irish, period.

I am not a racist. In fact I love the mixing of cultures, the different foods, accents, customs, etc. But the very thing I love about other cultures - in in fact, what these other cultures, wish to rob Ireland of - by simply reducing the Irish to white people. Actually the whole business of multiculturalism in a basically English speaking, white society, is unstoppable. There will always be recriminations and disturbances and name calling on all sides but once the wheels are in motion......

by lynchmob Fri Mar 24, 2006 01:16

The conservatives and true patriots had full reign over this country during the 1920s, 1930, 1940s, 1950s 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and early 1990s and they gave us poverty, censorship, and division. Those decades saw institutional sexual abuse lorded over by a clerical officer class. their legacy was a basket economy and emigration of epidemic proportions. and yet, Plato, you'd have THAT over multi-culturalism? We don't need a 'what if' when it comes to Irish patriots and conservatives running this place, because we've already seen exactly what they are capable of., and it sure aint pretty. There is nothing that people coming to this country to work for a living can possibly do that Irish conservative patriots haven't already done with skill, dedication and enthusiasm. They are, and always have been, the true enemies of Ireland. In 1955 Ireland was a country that was growing old because of the hundreds of thousands of young people who had to leave to find work. It's population was 2.8 million. In the late 1980s, when I left school, emigration was still the preferred, and accepted, route for young people to take. Then there's the scandals - everything from already mentioned sexual abuse, to Hepititus B, to the removal and dispatching of dead babies' organs - all undertaken by the Irish conservative patriotic nuclear family of the priest, guard, and civil servant (if from a small farmer background), or bishop, inspector, judge, and doctor (for the middle class equivalent.) Sackcloths and ashes for the lot of them - in a perfect world sold to them from one of our new tenants on Moore Street. Conservatives and patriots, scoundrels all. Pack of bloody bowzies.

by Seán Ryan Fri Mar 24, 2006 03:19

I forgot to mention in the blurb that this offering is chapter 6 in the new book.

by Lupe Fri Mar 24, 2006 07:51

Mr. Sean
Strangely enough I was able to read and understand your message. I was born in the US but my parents are both Mexican. I identify myself as Mexican, and it sounds strange to me when people refer to me as American, but in actuality I am American. However, I don't feel completely accepted by white Americans and therefore I relate more to my Mexican culture.
I live in Los Angeles where gang violence is very high and I believe some of it has to do with people just like me (who's parents are one race, but their children are born into another) are not feeling accepted by society and they feel like they can't identify with a race.
I'm not sure how it is in Ireland, but in the US we are living in the aftermath of all the discrimination from the past. Tension is very high at the moment and racism is as evident as ever (with police brutality, racial profiling and anti-immigration laws that are inhumane).
If you can believe there was a law passed in December of 2005, it the HR4437, which would make it a felony to be in the US illegally. That means people who fit a certain description can be stop in the street by police for no reason. They would have to prove that they are in the country legally or they can be arrested. It would also mean that if I were to have someone with no documentation in my car or home, I could be arrested. Talk about moving backward, what's next...are they gonna make everyone that's not a citizen where a yellow star on there sleeve.

by Plato Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:10

You stated:
"The conservatives and true patriots had full reign over this country during the 1920s, 1930, 1940s, 1950s 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and early 1990s and they gave us poverty, censorship, and division."

Actually Ireland has never had a trulty patriotic government who looked after the interests ALL of Irish people first rather than the tribal finegael/Fail politics. In fact the corrupt establishment empowered themselves since the founding of this state, and couldn't give a dam about the High emigration. they would rather let the state depopulate than actually work for the people or destroy the status quo. You seem to be confused as to what a true republican constitutionalist is versus the Phony "conservative"Fianna Fail Fine Gael Corrupt ,Nepotistic, blaguards of the Past.
Real conservative patriots are against Usury, the selling of state assets, invasion by foreign powers. They wish to Conserve the Integrity of the state for the common good.

You state:
"Those decades saw institutional sexual abuse lorded over by a clerical officer class. their legacy was a basket economy and emigration of epidemic proportions. and yet, Plato, you'd have THAT over multi-culturalism?"

Yes true all of these statements, but let us not accept also that there was murder my marxists in the North, Just as many Secular State school teachers abused children. Most of these abusers were in fact Homosexual which is never stated by the Media, that is not Homophobia but Fact.
I personally don't agree with priests not being allowed to marry, it causes to many problems.
You will also find just as many people were abused in "family homes" as by the Clergy. Therefore it is the same proportion throughout the Irish society as within the church, difference being the Liberal media just concentrates on the Clergy and not the real story of how Irish society throughout had a very serious problem with abuse.
The country was a basket case because the establishment in dublin who by the way are not real conservatives looked after their own interests and not those of the general populace.
they would rather destroy the system than allow their own priveliged situation to be compromised. This still Exists today. It was basicaly a result of waste of public funds, borrowing wrecklessly , bribery and feathering their own nests and not looking after the interests of the electorate.
Real conservatives are fiscaly prudent, they wish to "conserve" the economy for the people and future generations not destroy it! Try and get over the brainwashing of what a conservative is.

"We don't need a 'what if' when it comes to Irish patriots and conservatives running this place, because we've already seen exactly what they are capable of., and it sure aint pretty. There is nothing that people coming to this country to work for a living can possibly do that Irish conservative patriots haven't already done with skill, dedication and enthusiasm. They are, and always have been, the true enemies of Ireland."

Bullshit Bullshit Bullshit, as I have already argued of what real conservatism is above.

"In 1955 Ireland was a country that was growing old because of the hundreds of thousands of young people who had to leave to find work. It's population was 2.8 million. In the late 1980s, when I left school, emigration was still the preferred, and accepted, route for young people to take."

Again all is true , but caused by Charlatans, not real Irish Republicans or men of charity. So you canntot actually blame conservative politics, as it is against Heavy state borrowing, In fact was not Labour in Power in the 50's if I recollect, besides it doesn't matter all the establishment parties are corrupt as we can see from for instance the lack of affordable housing.
Yes a conservative (A real one) wants the best for his people.

Now back to my point, we already have one of the smallest populations in Ireland. We cannot even house feed and clothe our own people adequately right now. Is Ireland to be responsible for every "persecution" and civil war in every country and just let anyone who wants to come in? Are we not robbing these countries of their best and brightes?
Do you Marxists not think its wrong to rob Bangladesh or Pakistan of what few Doctors or Nurses it has? Is this Justice and fairness in a world?
why not deal with changing the policies of Usury in finance, instilling corrupt governments?
Ireland has 4 million people poorer countries have about 5 .4 Billion.
you decide.

by Seán Ryan Fri Mar 24, 2006 16:22

Plato, you carpet bomb you arguments with irrelevance.

Firstly let me point out that I'm not a marxist or a communist. So this should put your overall opinion in perspective.

You argue that we steal the best of foreigners from countries that are hard put to cope with their loss. This is another shite argument. Most foreign migrants are economic migrants, and usually the skills that they bring with them are not utilised by this country. If you meant that our healthcare is mostly populated by foreign doctors as opposed to Irish doctors. Then this is a tiny problem. The point being look at population sizes. But I reckon we need to train more Irish healthcare workers.

You seem to be one of these rabid patriots who is incapable of looking beyond their fevered imaginings. You would step on the little guy but you do fuck all about those who actually repress you.

"I wanna 32 county Ireland." Me too, however what then?

Let the wankers that defile the 26 counties defile the other 6 too?

Take your head out of the box you have it in and look around yourself. You'll see loads of people, some of them foreigners, each and every one of them is as entitled to an opinion and an existence as you are.

Dialogue not rhetoric.

Sláinte,
Seán

by Lynchmob Sat Mar 25, 2006 15:35

Hi Plato, The fact that you agreed with the majority of what I said except over the definition of what a true conservative and patriot is reminds me of Clinton's famous 'that depends on what is is.' Neither Fianna Fail, Fine Gael or the Blueshirts as organisations existed at the foundation of our state, but emerged some years later, from the late 1920s onwards. The Marxists you talk about killing people up North were always the minority paramilitary organisation, especially after the Night of the Long Knives in Belfast, but again why let the facts get in the way? Also, the school system in Ireland was administered by the Church, so to say that teachers also abused children somehow gets the Church off the hook is to avoid the FACT that the managers were Church people, including the lay members. As for sexual abuse in Ireland being down solely to homosexuals? Well, does that even merit a retort?

Finally, your statement 'Real conservatives are fiscaly prudent, they wish to "conserve" the economy for the people and future generations not destroy it!'

This was official givernment policy from 1922 until the late 1950s. The Irish economy openied up with the Lemass era. The idea of balancing the books and heavy protectionism was the overwhelming reason for Ireland's economic difficulty , and not the brown paper bag culture that you allude to - a culture which only came to flurish after there was money in the country and building to be done, c.1960s. It's hard to bribe a councillor with food cupons.

your moniker is apt, Plato, because your conservatives and true patriots are like the philosopher's true forms - they don't exist in this world. What we have is the shadow they produce, and in Ireland that is one hell of a long shadow. But hey, feel free to blame homosexuals and the Dublin elite.

by blaise Sun Mar 26, 2006 20:21

The problem with the topic of racism - is that it basically cannot be debated in a reasonable manner. If you are against massive immigration then you are considered racist. If you condemn foreigners for wanting to keep their tribal customs while on your shores - you are considered racist. Lefties tend to be grouped as pro-immigration, anti-racist. Righties are normally considered anti-immigration and just plain racist for the sake of grouping them. A lot or rubbish, really. Could an Irishman emigrate to say, Jamaica, or Nigeria, or Saudi Arabia and start demanding his rights of custom and free speech - not in your lifetime I can assure you. Did the Irish emigrate to America and demand their rights over there? No is the answer to that one. Do the Chinese do it? No. They simply do their work - get into their own private sections of town and mind their own business.

Immigration has to be controlled - to keep one's own culture - to ensure it's not overrun, rendered invisible, lose its character, etc. Immigrants must obey the law of the land, simple as that. By the way, the Catholic Church is not as bad as some on this site have said it is. I was schooled by the Holy Ghost fathers without a single incidence of pervertedness or over-zealotry in the corporal punishment category. I was given the strap and cane many times and sometimes the fathers doled it out with more relish than necessary, but I don't begrudge them for that. In fact, I feel I deserved it, no harm done. I'd even recommend it for these insolent, impudent, back-talking pups which rule the school grounds these days. Which brings me to the head dress issue with immigrants wanting to keep theirs on. If they wish to live here and partake of our great generosity and catholicism (not in the religious way) - they should accept our ways as we would have to accept theirs on their soil. We wouldn't be walking around the streets of Cairo acting like drunken louts and coming on their their women would we?

So to the righties, lighten up I say, immigration is here to stay, but some of your fears are valid and I hope will have their day. To the lefties, immigration must be controlled, you cannot have the wool continuously pulled over your eyes by immigrants taking advantage of the kindness of our legal system and lawyers scheming to have their day.

To the immigrants I say - there will, and have always been immigrants. Mind your own business. Do your work. Multiculturalism is here to stay. There is a place for you but your place is not to quash the culture of your benefactor, nor is it to capitalize on the generosity of the blinkered courts. The conservatives aren't all bad. There are some among you, I'm sure.

The wool is heavily stretched over the right, the left and the immigrant. It needs to be lifted to see what real truths lie beneath. There are racists in every tribe. Sure even the term 'tribe' infers a bias towards another fellow man. There is real racism - not being allowed to have a seat on the bus - not being allowed into clubs, not being given a job when you are more qualified than the competitors, etc and there is the loosely tossed term of 'racism' given out to anyone who is different from you who doesn't like what you are doing. I have not see that many elements of real racism in Irish society. In Toronto their used to be signs on people front porches 'Irish not allowed here,' same for Jews and Blacks. That's a real racist sign, for sure. So let's be clear when we use this term, and lift the wool from our eyes.

by Plato Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:08

Firstly I am not Racist as I have had 2 Foreign girlfriends one Spanish and Asian how can I be Bandied racist?
So its Rubbish and just Mud Slinging.
I think people should educate themselves what the word actually mean.
Wanting to protect the soverignty and culture of the state is not Racist it is common sense.
Those people who want all this immigration I ask when in 50 years you are a minority here and Ethnic Conflict arises as it always does with "Multi Culturalism" experiments(which it will i.e. Northern Ireland,Bosnia, the Roman Empire) what will you do then?
I love the way some of you pick and choose my arguments to answer and prefer to slander rather than have any rational answer.
Indeed I was precise not carpet Bombing, so I'll ignore that fact.
May I ask another pertinent question, If homosexuality is to be taught in schools as "Natural" and say for example 80% of the population decides to live this lifestyle, who will pay the pensions of the future? The Taxes , build the roads?
Is this type of situation healthy and good for the future of the state if there are not an adequate amount children?
You cannot label "the catholic church" bad that is real bigotry, there are 1.2 Billion catholics and they are not all repressive faccists or paedophiles.
In fact I dont see many Irish Marxists going abroad volunteering in Vietnam to stop the compulsory sterilisation of Mothers.
I don't see them building houses in South Africa, or feeding the poor in Honduras.
Again Men and Women of charity Act not talk about caring for the great unwashed masses.
If you look up the facts for example the Ferns report you will find most of the Clerical abuse was Priests with Homosexual tendencies, that is not fiction.
So I would love an answer to my "specific" points and no Carpet Bombing please.
p.s. Multi Culturalism is not here to stay , its a False Liberal PC theory that has destroyed lots of europe already hopefully we can stop this disease here.

by blaise Tue Mar 28, 2006 17:42

Plato - multiculturalism is here to stay - despite your protestations - hence the futility of our warnings to these neo-marxist liberals who, without proper thought, without foresight, with their goody-goodiness regarding immigration and the cultural mosaic, have labelled all those opposed as small minded and racist. They are on the winning side (even though they are losers) because the media loves these types. Branding people as racists and intolerant is highly popular and shows no nerve at all. All I was alluding to was the dangers of having a culture engulfed by foreigners, rendered invisible by the visibles, effectively wiped out as a culture. I have witnessed this atrocity, and it is just that, I believe, the eradication of a culture is an atrocity, and it will happen because the legal system enforces the removal of culture from within.

It is my belief that Ireland could protect itself from the carnage which multicultarism heaps on other benevolent cultures - basically because Ireland was never a colonial power and therefore owes nothing to immigrants who come here. Immigrants in Ireland cannot heap their past persecution complexes onto the Irish as the colonies of France and England have. We are in a far superior position - yet the likes of the ultra left are continually slagging us - opening up wounds - and belittling us in front of the newcomers. Immigrants are well aware that the piss is being pulled out of us.

Obviously there will always be immigration - especially to fruitful shores - as we are now - but we, as a country, must stand up and protect our culture from being overrun. This is not a racist theory. It is protectionist, if you will, but what's wrong with that. I can assure that all the immigrants now in Ireland would be in line with protecting their own culture and race - even more so I suspect than us - and terribly more so that the good-goody ultra lefts which I have encountered in this forum.

Marshall McLuhan called the cultural mosaic a wild experiment which eventually will be sorted out between the tribes. I might add we'd be lucky if we still have a tribe left to be involved in the fight . More likely we will simply be a part of the great multicultural meltdown which renders the Irish into a cozy, vile group called 'white people'. Note that the English are considered white mostly, but Russians are known as Russians and Poles are known as Poles. Are the Irish going to be Irish or simply white people (there's the meltdown), the moniker a convenient slight by the immigrant .

In Canada, I can assure you that the Irish are considered white people by those of colour, and are pre-melted into the British/Scots/Welsh/Irish as white people melt. I suspect there is no stopping this, but Plato I admire your attempt to stop it before the cancer takes root, Plato.

by Seán Ryan Wed Mar 29, 2006 08:05

Well Plato, I haven't called you a racist in a personal sense, this piece is about our society itself and how I think racism is becoming a part of how we define ourselves as a culture. I simply disagree with you, no more no less. Plus I don't think the ethnicity of former girlfriends really determines whether you are racist or not.

Speaking of 'multiculturalism,' - if it had a worked out with either of these girlfriends, would your views have turned out the way they did?

You tell me imagine a future 50 years from now in Ireland where Irishness is a minority. I think this will be the future if racist social policies and practices are not stopped.

Again I put it to you as I did in the article itself: Irishness is not a genetic trait. It's a geographical and attitudinal trait, that is capable of spreading if we allow it to. It's my argument that a proper and functioning pluralist society would expand our culture rather than cause it to retreat and die. Ours is not a weak culture. Furthermore it is not a traditionally xenophobic culture either.

What constitutes our culture is a thing that's very hard to nail down. I do not think it a fair approach to look back at instances of our history and say that they in particular define us. Our arts were stifled and rubbed out for centuries. Yet we have an amazing artistic culture that point blank refuses to die even when confronted with genocide. Multiculturalism holds no fears for me, it is the fear being introduced into my culture that concerns me; this fear that our culture is weak. One thing a culture should not be is stale or static. Culture should evolve. This is an argument about the evolution of culture. Your argument fails because it refuses to recognise this. You argue the static and dead culture argument.

You spoke of nations forced to live together under a single flag if you will. I'd not deny the outright slaughter and genocide that has resulted from any of this, I agree with you. I'm not afraid to comment on this issue as you presume.

When anybody enforces their will on sombody else you have slavery. I'm not a person who is trying to command you to do something. I'm saying I believe this planet supports multiculturalism and that it is a logical assumption, and a moral assumption that Ireland can support it too. I'm also saying that it is this fear of integration itself that prevents it from happening and in doing so it perpetuates itself. And that this is the reason for the barbarity you allude to, not multiculturalism.

At this point I want to point out what I hope is a mistake on your behalf. Sexuality is not a choice. Therefore sexuality is perfectly natural.

Don't believe me?

Think of some creature that you don't find attractive and command yourself to find it sexually stimulating. If you succeed let me know and I'll revise my thinking. I'd also like to remind you that gay people sometimes pay taxes too.

I most certainly can label the church as 'bad,' and have (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74031)done so extensively. (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74535) I don't confuse this with labelling 1.2 billion people as bad either.

Again you insist on thinking me a marxist. You're entitled to your opinion I suppose so I'll not debate it further with you. But you have pointed out that I could be off elsewhere on the planet helping those who mostly suffer moreso than people do over here. Is this a suggestion that shows you to be secretly in favour of multiculturalism?

I'll answer this jibe nevertheless. I have an opinion on each topic you brought up. If I can advance any of the causes you exampled I will, but my priorities are over here. One must clean one's own house first. Or at least this is how I choose to go about it.

As for paedophiles being homosexuals - this at the very least is blinkered thinking. It is considered racist by many, myself included. A homosexual male is homosexual by the virtue of the fact that he finds other males sexually attractive. A priest who sexually viloates a male child is a homosexual just as a priest who sexually violates a female child is a hetrosexual. Both scumbags are paedophiles and whether they be homosexual paedophiles or hetrosexual paedophiles is irrelevant in as far as describing what a paedophile is, is concerned.

Well I hope I addressed your specific points.

And remember it's only a disease if it festers, that's down to us - not multiculturalism.

by Plato Wed Mar 29, 2006 15:56

Well if I was a racialist I would not even consider forming a relationship outside my culture, so I do not consider myself having these views.
Also my ex girlfriend had her own views about certain african people working in old folks homes (as she did ) and she felt some of these people did not have the temprament to work in this profession i.e. abuse of patients, being rough with them, indeed yes this is anecdotal but true evidence.
Therfore I ask is she also an Asian Racialist in stating that different unpleasant characteristics existed in other members of staff from a different cultural background?
Multi-Culturalism is a nice utopian Idea but in practicalities when push comes to shove people want to protect there own species, live among their own kin and marry , associate and trade within their own kind.
History teaches us whenever Multi-Culturalism has taken root within a fairly tolerant and benevolent culture conflict ALWAYS ensues or a tense median is enforced usually dictatorialy. i.e. Yugoslavia the Former USSR, Even Iraq.
Most of the wars of the last 300 years have been and continue to be cultural wars.
Even minorities now in Britain are voting conservative and agree that Multi-culturalism has gone too far.
For example a civil servant was not allowed a piglet Mug in work as it was "offensive to Islam", Christmas lights are now Winter Lights so as to offend noone.
In Canada Sharia Law is close to be enforced in many districts.
In Israel, Israeli-Arabs are treated as second class citizens and routinely discriminated against.
Even in Northern Ireland we can see that Multi-culturalism has not worked even though there is minute differences in the Cultural characteristics of both sets of communities.
Scotti was the Latin name forthe Irish , these Scoti invaded Scotland (hence the Name) the Invaders were in Fact racial cousins of the Irish, being planted back in Uslter.
Multi-culturalism destroyed the Roman empire, the Greek empire , the Egyptian Kingdom,Babylon,Persia, Russia, British Empire, every empire in history.
Irishness is indeed a genetic trait believe it or not just as Chinese is or Japanese or Congolese is a racial trait.
to dispute otherwise is utter bunkum.
Yes indeed the Anglo Saxons invaded, the Normans, the Vikings but as a whole as recent reports state Irishness is a particular trait very similar to welsh and Basque and 90% of the population have this peculiar Gene.
Lets Define Culture:

cul·ture [ kúlchər ]
noun (plural cul·tures)
Definitions:

1. arts collectively: art, music, literature, and related intellectual activities, considered collectively
Culture is necessary for a healthy society.
popular culture

2. knowledge and sophistication: enlightenment and sophistication acquired through education and exposure to the arts
They are people of culture.

3. shared beliefs and values of group: the beliefs, customs, practices, and social behavior of a particular nation or people
Southeast Asian culture

4. people with shared beliefs and practices: a group of people whose shared beliefs and practices identify the particular place, class, or time to which they belong

5. shared attitudes: a particular set of attitudes that characterizes a group of people
The company tries hard to avoid a blame culture.

3 4 and 5 are quite interesting are they not? Indeed I would go as far to say that the Irish nation could be described as a culture just as Ethiopia,Azerbaijzn or Laos has a culture or Argentina is the one culture.

Even if your argument is true abut genetics which its not , Irishness is a culture that is thousands of years of invasion,struggle, artistic endeavour, mystical beliefs and Industrious evolvement.
A pluralist society would weaken and destroy our culture just as it did in Northern Ireland so your argument is a bit of a fallacy. Pluralism almost obliterated the Native North americans, the Aboriginies, and is still doing so today in Tibetan China. Please open your eyes.
Ours culture was weak enough for us to almost loose our language, our sporting Past-times. We have a very small population as opposed to the rest of the world and we could easily disappear as a cultural nation just like lithuania almost did under the Russian Soviet Idea of a "pluralist " Society.
We are traditionally not xenophobic you state? What about the attitude of many Irish people to English people? Is this not a form of Xenophobia?
Again your liberal argument and doublespeak indoctrination falters.
Indeed a Culture should not be static, but the evolution should be to strenghten the creativity, awareness and identity built up by our ancestors not to destroy and dilute it by some PC "Utopian" nonsense.
Ideally the world would be like heaven but human nature dictates mans first instinct is survival of himself first his family tribe and then nation.
Indeed Gay people pay taxes and can be very charming nice people, and its their own business what they want to do, however I don't think it should be promoted in education as the Natural or Idealistic way to live ones life Why? Because I am homophobic no! The reason being that in the interests of the Common good and the Future Well Being of the state, procreation of Future Taxpayers Workers is more preferable and should be encouraged. Indeed many homosexuals are firm Catholic Lay People and do much Charity Work and many would agree with my point that the ideal circumstances for society is the Nuclear family.
you slander all members of the Catholic Clergy which is Lazy Mud-Slinging and not Intellectually Rational.
90% of the Clergy never did any child harm, and in fact are in diverse developing countries i.e. www.Preda.net taking children out of the Hands of Paedophiles.
I stand by my point that in the Ferns report the abuse was mainly of a Homosexual Nature, an investigation into this should also occur as to the correlation of this.
Helping other people around the world is what Men and Women of Charity and compassion do, to try and achieve the Noble Good of doing "Real Good" rather than talking some Idealistic Utopian Clap-Trap. Yes I am all for Multi-Culturalism in one aspect the Multi -Culturalism of the various nations free to develop themselves without the Vindictive interference by Usurious International Banks.
That these people can achieve happiness and develop to their full potential in their own countries without interference from other nations , yes this is a good notion of multi-culturalisms.
Again our National Heritage and culture should be cherished and protected just as people are prepared to protect species of Wildlife, they should stop Ireland as a country being standardised and becoming extinct. Hope this replied to your arguments.

by blaise Wed Mar 29, 2006 17:58

Sean - you have not - despite your proclamations - dealt with Plato's points - nor mine for that matter - and having lived in a pluralist society and seen the carnage multiculturlism can inflict on a culture up close - I can tell you that your argument for it - and your points contre Plato - are just flapping out there in the wind, seamlessly and shamlessly in the hot air. And don't be getting non Irish to back you on this one - that would be like asking a striker who plays every game if he is happy with the coach - he's always going to be on your side.

The writing is on the wall on this one - Plato is right on the issue - his points are valid - and yours are not - Sean - but you're are on the winning side - so the futility of all this - is that you will never know how wrong you are - until it's too late to change anything - not that you could've anyway....

by me, im not racist Wed Mar 29, 2006 18:25

"If we substitute the word 'nigger' and 'pub' for 'asylum seeker' and 'county'...." This is probably the worst opening thought of an essay I have ever read. The writer is so fucking PC that he thinks he cant possibly be a racist asshole because, well, he's not. Unfortunately he has no idea of the complex manner in which the referendum was planned and executed, so he misses entirely the political tasks which it successfully achieved for the establishment here. This is pathetic.

by Elaine Wed Mar 29, 2006 19:52

I'm with Seán on this one.

Up the niggers!

by Seán Ryan Wed Mar 29, 2006 22:06

Plato I'm only going to address one of your issues this time round. For the rest of them read my last answer to you again, if that fails try reading the article again. If all that fails and you still find yourself with issues, then get specific. Your last answer was but a revision of the one before which still refused to get the point or indeed to it. Pick something I've said and say why it's wrong. So far you have yet to do this. You just say lots of irrelevant stuff in as far as making a point or an argument is concerned.

The issue I wish to point to is the issue of genetics. Read the definitions you supplied for "culture." And try to figure out where any of these definitions specify that culture is genetic. I may add that you recognise that Ireland is not racially pure, our very culture now is a result of interaction between ourselves and others. You suggest that this is both strong and weak, that it is both wrong and right. You are neither here not there. Very similar to Blaise.

Blaise, I didn't answer you because you didn't question me. Your one question in your last post was a question asking me why I didn't answer you. The rest was a whine along the same lines with some very illogical 'stuff' at the end. As for any other 'point' you made that disagreed with what I've said, well it's not like you've shown me the error of my ways is it? Telling me I'm wrong is not the same as proving it. If and when you try to refute what I've said, and if you do it in a somewhat coherent fashion, I'll be very happy to show you the errors in your thinking.

"by me, im not racist."

You may not be racist but you sure are stupid.

What you label as my opening thought was actually many paragraphs into the piece.

As for pc......Go fuck yourself.

I have a very good idea as to how the 'referendum' was 'planned' and 'executed.' (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74090)

They ony thought that you yourself have advanced is that if you had a thought that it would die of lonliness. I'm sure you must be proud of yourself. You definitely add to culture in a subtractive sense.

Go out and make some friends.

And finally......Thanks Elaine, tis nice to see that someone gets it. And somehow I don't think we are alone.

by blaise Thu Mar 30, 2006 00:36

Sean, I'll try to keep it simple. I am Irish, raised in Dublin. I am also half French (my father's side) and I am married to an Armenian. As well, I am also an immigrant living in Toronto. So there's a few different cultures at play in my household but that doesn't interfere with me observing the dangers of multiculturalism running amok, nor does it blinker me from noticing that immigrants are pulling the piss out of Irish society, and that bleeding heart liberals are condoning it wholeheartedly, tossing the term 'racist' at whoever gets in their way. Go back to my 'wool being pulled over' bit and address those points if you want to debate. As an immigrant I would never think of pushing my personal program onto another culture, nor would I ask for handouts from the government or call people racists at the drop of a hat. You will find in general that the Irish do not go in for this type of advantageousness when living as immigrants in other parts of the world.

I love other cultures and get along famously with blacks, arabs, latinos, eastern blockers, you name it, got no problem with multiculturalism on a social level. I simply have this fear that the huge immigrant population in Ireland which will double, treble, quadruple in years to come for sure, will have a grave effect on the Irish, their character, their culture - if not controlled - that is the overpowering numbers - and the special interests groups who make a livelihood out of changing laws to suit the immigrants. I believe it's a valid concern and as for incoherence, I didn't write the article which propelled the response on this message board. As I mentioned earlier, the subject is a difficult one to address because emotions get overworked and people tend to be grouped opposingly when there is actually more in common than we think.

by Seán Ryan Thu Mar 30, 2006 01:37

Ok Blaise, now that warrants an answer.

Most of the points that you've made either agreed with what I've said. Or they have not referred to the article itself.

My article has three major points.

i. Our sensible citizenship referendum was racist and the arguments put forwards to justify and promote it were illogical and also racist. (I don't know whether you see it this way or not)

ii. Racism is not a black and white issue other than it being about blacks and whites (you agree with this I believe). Racism derrives from acting without consent. (I don't know whether you agree here or not)

iii. That our constitution itself was violated by this referendum. (I dunno whether you agree with this or not either)

I didn't write about multiculturalism I wrote about racism. I've had to suffer through many posts that equated multiculturalism with genocide and dictatorship. I speak of your pal Plato of course. I'd like to add that he believes our distrust of the English is based on an irrational fear.

I hope you understand my frustration, even if you don't agree with me. The closest I came to making a multicultural argument in the piece itself was suggesting that the idea that Ireland was flooded to a point of saturation, was a stupid idea. Even the Catholic Church has been argued. The Church in as far as child sexual abuse, homosexuality and general 'wholesomeness' figured no part in the article either.

I've visited Canada on the odd occasion. I haven't travelled too widely there. I spent most of my time in Toronto. Know what I noticed? And I bet you noticed it and continue to notice it.

They love the Irish.

Why is that?

Why is it this way every where I go? The Irish are loved everywhere - except Ireland.

Like I said I'm not concretely sure where you actually disagree with what I've said.

But tell me do you think this international 'we love the Irish' is on the rise or in decline?

by Plato Thu Mar 30, 2006 13:33

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1256894.stm
So Irishness is not partially genetic eh?
I think this refutes your arguments. You never commented on my questions which by the way were not old news.
so I ask.
1) Was Multiculturalism good for Bosnia, Northern Ireland , Native Americans?
2) After reading the article above will you concede that there is indeed a Unique Irish DNA strand.
3) Culturally do you not agree that evolution of culture should strenghten it rather than weaken it by mixing it with other cultures?
4) Has Multi-Culturalism worked in Paris? Los Angeles? Belfast? Israel?
5) Will you be prepared to pay increasing taxes to support a welfare immigrant industry that is in fact detrimental to Irish society and the common good?
6) If Sharia law was to be introduced in Dublin would you agree?
etc. etc. etc.

And obviously you have not read my other comments adequately, indeed your self destructive political views , and hatred of Irish people democratically wishing that they protect their "culture" shows that you are som much indoctrinated in false theories that is pointless debating with you.

by blaise Thu Mar 30, 2006 20:09

listen Sean, thanks for your response, but please don't patronize me with "well that was very coherent" line which is a definite affront - especially in light of your wandering epiphany which began this thread. Also, it is impossible to talk about racism without bringing multiculturarism into play. I see no problem with the government protecting its culture from being overrun with every sort of immigrant looking for work in greener pastures.

You must know a different Toronto than I do. This a WASP town - through and through - perhaps saved only by multiculturalism. You see multiculturalism can be used effectively to pin-prick the colonial powers. The Orange Order is strong here, controlling the banks and the communications networks. It used to be known as Little Belfast. My good Canadian friend (part of the Scots Presbyterian ruling class) who just died recently had told me that his parents told him as a youth never to associate with Irish people (catholics) for they were all criminals, thieves, liars, cheats. In the old days of Toronto there were signs in front of houses telling Irish to stay out of their neighbourhoods. Sure it may have changed but there is a lingering hatred of the Irish here by the establishment. In New York and Boston and California they love the Irish - in Toronto, they just tolerate them, like any other non-Wasp culture.

On telling my sister in law of the huge ethnic change in Irish society, she said to me "well that must bring trouble because aren't the Irish racists." which shocked me really, because she (being Armenian) has just lumped us into that all white people are basically racists category. Don't worry. We talk like that to each other. There are lots of races she doesn't like and she is not afraid to tell you. My neighbour who is Guayanese was in Dublin last St Pat's day and noticed the large population of black people there and he said to me - "that can't be going down too well. " He is black but he despises the gun culture and violence which they have brought to Toronto and he warned me that immigration could ruin Ireland in the future. All I am asking for is control of the situation before it gets out of hand...but personally...I don't see it...and am quite pessimistic over the future of Ireland...visavis immigration.....anyway I'm closing out of this one...becoming cycycle....and redundant....leave it for others to discuss among themselves.....good luck

by Seán Ryan Thu Mar 30, 2006 20:50

Well I'll tell you Blaise. My comment wasn't meant to be patronising. It was an utterance of surprise that you had actually engaged with me rather than just commenting about me and stuff I hadn't said. Which I may add that I found patronising.

It is very possible to talk about racism without blaming multiculturism for it.

As for Toronto, I bow to your wider experience. However I found myself welcome everywhere I went. And I even was made feel welcome by protestants over there. Tis possible that I didn't stay long enough to wear my welcome out. But I did notice that I was made more welcome than other racial minorities.

Again I'm sorry you felt I was patronising you, and I'll tell you something for nothing, I agree with you about this becoming cyclical, but since I'm the one that started I don't have the luxury of pulling out.

Anyway good luck to you, maybe we'll meet up elsewhere on the newswire where bridges might be built, as you've said this particular topic of conversation has a habit of getting folks emotional.

Now onto Plato.

1. genocide is not multiculturalism
2. race and culture are not the same thing
3 Mixing is an evolutionary trait that strengthens race. Check out inbreeding if you dont agree.
4 Again you mix up the idea of voluntary multiculturism with imposed multiculturism. When somebody is forced to do something you get negative results. Multiculturism even though it is present in the argument is a red herring.
5 An economic migrant comes here to work and make money. My taxes would be reduced.
6. No. All people in Ireland must obey Irish law. And I have never argued otherwise.

See how much easier it is when you get specific. As for your last paragraph. It is not pointless to debate with me. It is pointless in parroting irrelevant tripe at me, because I can and I will tear it apart.

by Firewire Thu Mar 30, 2006 21:40

I know this is directed at Plato, but I am curious about this particular statement:

*An economic migrant comes here to work and make money. My taxes would be reduced*

What if that econmic migrant was say working for minimum wage. What say, he then applies for and is successfull in getting various welfare entitlements, FIS, rent supplements etc.

What if he thinks, this is a grand ould spot, I'll get the missus and the kids over.

What then if we start paying childerns school fees, medical cards etc. etc.

Wouldnt it be easier on your taxes to encourage employers to pay an Irish person a decent bloody wage in the first place?

And would not restricting immigration be the most effective step in ensuring that the employers do so through supply and demand, reversing the unstopable trend in the opposire direction?

by Seán Ryan Fri Mar 31, 2006 01:18

Well firewire, you sure don't ask easy ones.

The only truthful answer to your question is that you have predicted the future. To a large degree too.

But.

You have predicted the future if we go on as we are going on. If our system stays racist and exploitative - you've pointed out one of our destinations.

On the other hand if we operated a proper pluralist society then at the very least the the system would be no worse off than it is now. Ratios of wankers/non wankers tend not to practice racial discrimination. However the potential of the system itself would be dramatically increased. Many hands make light work.

As for paying an Irish person or indeed in my opinion a foreigner. Of course decent wages should be paid. But remember minorities are thus named because they are few. They are not the cause of shit wages either for themselves or others. The Irish have long been used to shit wages. Long before any economic immigrants arrived. I'd even go so far as to say that if pluralism were properly practiced that it might help alleviate the shit wages problem. If folks just stopped bitching at each other for even a moment they'd see that they've been pitted against each other, deliberately.

Look at it this way: If decent wages were the norm then employers would only be able to offer surplus jobs abroad. This undercutting tactic employed by employers actually increases the ammounts of economic immigrants. And will tend to cause exactly what it causes now. And it'll get a lot worse.

Misdirection is what it's about.

At least that's what any good magician will tell you.

Put it this way - If all this surplus labour exists, why don't we build a few roads, train stations, some trains, maybe a hospital or two or three and possibly train a few doctors out of the thousands of extra third level students we should have, what with all this cheap labour powering our Celtic pussycat of Asian decent.

I tell you, that friggin' cat - now there's a bloody foreigner I have issues with.

A thought provoking post firewire.

Thanks.

by Firewire Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:39

Thanks Sean.

Somehow, I think my scenario is the one that I see replicated in virtually every Country that opens itself up to mass immigration. If you can think of an exception, I would like to know more.

No point in speculating endlessly on what would or could be, my scenario is reality.

I will sign off while reminding you, that everyone is a minority of one and the collateral damage of reckless immigration and displacement is felt just as keenly by any Irish person as any foreigner in his own homeland.

by Seán Ryan Sun Apr 02, 2006 19:50

I agree with you. But with a subtle difference.

I'd argue that no society has ever opened itself up to multiculturism. That eact time immigrints arrive in a new home - that it is the result of a parasitic practice rather than a benevolent or symbiotic practice.

And I'd argue that with that difference in place - that there are no exceptions.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that you didn't see this firewire. I just think the overall piece required it and without doubt you all but said it.

This of course is not to argue that this is the way it has to be, because it isn't. We need to get beyond the general superficial understanding of racism and move from our indepth practice of it.

Thanks again,
Seán

by Brian Boru Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:39 mango2002 at imagine dot ie

As someone who voted Yes to the Citizenship Referendum I reject the thesis that my vote was about 'keep Ireland white'. My vote was about keeping Irish people as the majority in their own country - regardless of what colour immigrants are. It is not aimed at any specific colour - I feel the same abour restricting white immigration. What the Irish Left should take from the Citizenship referendum is that on immigration, that over-the-top language comparing immigration control to Nazi Germany or the KKK can only backfire in persuading the people. To persuade us, you need to listen to what we are saying and argue the points with us. The No campaign came across to me as self-righteous, arrogant, and namecalling. Their reaction to Pat Rabbitte's recent remarks indicates that like the Bourbons, they have "learned nothing and forgotten nothing". Do the Irish Left care what the public thinks? Do they want to be like Lenin and tell us what we should think?

On the argument that we are not an ethnic-group, this is contradicted by research by TCD, specifically research by Dr.Daniel Bradley and Emmeline Hill, linked to here: http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ti=...=1882

The British passed laws during their rule here to force us to change our surnames. It was part of a campaign to "make Ireland english" in the hope that cultural destruction would erode our national identity. Thankfully this failed. I understand that most Johnstones are actually descended from the "McSean"'s, while Michael Collins' family name used to be O'Coileain. In that way, the current abundance of English-sounding names gives a misleading impression. The partition of Ireland was called by immigration in the Plantation of Ulster 1605-1720 by the way. Do you want that to happen again? Let's be realistic here.

by Seán Ryan Mon Apr 03, 2006 22:10

Well Mr. Boru like you said let's keep this real.

I have at no point in any of this, confused ethnicity with culture. Although I have allowed that there is overlap and that our ethnicity and culture are greatly influenced by this overlap.

As for making us change surnames. They did a helluva lot more than this.

This piece was a piece about removing citizenship from Irish citizens. It is my claim that anybody born in Ireland is Irish. Just like any other product made in Ireland is Irish.

You or anyone else who has misrepresented my arguments have yet to engage any point I have made in a reasonable or any other fashion.

You just made a post that offers no substance or grounding for you views. You just took time out to tell me that I do not offer you enough.

Refute something I've said. And I've said plenty.

I'm not justifying my position any further on this. Firstly I don't owe you justification, that happened in the piece itself. And secondly you offer nothing to back up what you said.

"As someone who voted Yes to the Citizenship Referendum I reject the thesis that my vote was about 'keep Ireland white'. My vote was about keeping Irish people as the majority in their own country - regardless of what colour immigrants are." - Ok so you want to keep the race genetically pure, or at least you want a master race present in Ireland - same thing. Try reading the piece again.

Again the piece is about removing citizenship from citizens entitled to Irish citizenship. Ie to people from Ireland. You want to disagree with me at least argue against an argument I made and not one you wished I'd made.

by Plato Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:54

Séan
I would like to reply to some of your points.
Firstly

"1. genocide is not multiculturalism"
No but the Genocide that ensued was a direct result ALWAYS of a failed Multi-Culturalism experiment or accidental implementation of Multi-culturalism. Bosnia, Rwanda, Israel.

"2. race and culture are not the same thing"

No but culture is a direct result of race, Persian Roman Greek Cultures , Native Americans, Zulu Cultures all came from specific races, to deny this fact is absoloute nonsense.

"3 Mixing is an evolutionary trait that strengthens race. Check out inbreeding if you dont agree."

Sorry to disagree but look at the Banana Republics in South America, the corruption bad governance that they have had over the years, mixing did not work unfortunately for the prosperity of these peoples.
However if you look at the likes of Japan or China which have not really mixed they have strong cultural and traditional cultures, even though they are becoming technologicaly advanced.
Sorr but you advocate the Genocide of Cultures yourself with your false logic.
Look at Spain Portugal Holland, their countries became weak as soon as they allowed "Multi-culturalism" , look at even Iraq now today a multi cultural failure.

"4 Again you mix up the idea of voluntary multiculturism with imposed multiculturism. When somebody is forced to do something you get negative results. Multiculturism even though it is present in the argument is a red herring."

Sorry you are the one distributing Red Herrings, in this state nobody has voluntarily decided to have a multicultural society. Maybe a stupid small radical minority supported by the establishment Media.
You are in fact not a real revolutionary but working as an establishment proxy for the destruction of the Irish nation.
All multi-culturalism throughout history is imposed ! End of!

"5 An economic migrant comes here to work and make money. My taxes would be reduced."
Absolout Bullshit, study economics will you?
More roads Schoools Houses? Medical Cards? Infrastructure> Waste to Environment?
Who payes for this? Already we are not housing all our own people so are you advocating making more Irish people homeless?
Importing the Developing worlds poverty position here?
Your taxes will go up exponentialy with more immigration to pay for services. Yes immigrants pay taxes but if you read the Migrationwatch website in England you will read studies that economicaly its good for the country is a complete fable myth made up by the left.

6. No. All people in Ireland must obey Irish law. And I have never argued otherwise.
Agreed, but are you not denying musilims religous freedom to practice their culture? are they not entitled to punish women any way they feel fit?
Who are you to stop them implementing their religous beliefs? So are you denying 100% implementation of multiculturalism.
Curtains.
Regards

by Seán Ryan Tue Apr 04, 2006 20:20

Pathetic.

Well here we go again.

Plato wins the prize. For most unimaginative reposting of tripe over and over and over.

1. So you agree we live in a racist nation. Methinks that because you agree with this that you are nothing but a jaded troll.

2. Read the definitions you gave of "culture" and find the genetic link. Stop posting shite that disagrees with your other shite in order to make an irrelevant point.

3. This point is gibberish and doesn't warrant a serious response.

4. You make my point for me again. Ireland has become a racist nation.

5. You repeat yourself yet again. Answered already.

6. No I'm not impeding multiculturism. You are becoming more incoherant. Why not invest in your imagination rather than divesting?

Can't wait for your next example of stupidity.

by Plato Wed Apr 05, 2006 13:18

Your nit picking now and Mud Slinging because you cannot fathom a logical intellectualy solid response.
I could easily respond 1,2,3,4,5,6, are all wrong without backing up my arguments, but you are not proving my arguments wrong.
You have not proven any of my points contra, instead you just call names or say nonsense without any evidence. I could easily do this, its called lieing when your backed in a corner.
Sorry to shatter your little world with reasonably logical points , but I dont do it out of hate, but to educate people.
I was once a Marxist believe it or not but then I realised it was just bunkum used to oppress people and destroy society bit by bit.
Think of it in 50 years we could be a minority here, family structure is breaking down, the press lies to us, people are up to their eyeballs in debt, we are destroying the environment, crime is going up.
In England christmas is now politicaly incorrect, to say you are christian is shameful? Tv dumbs us down with vulgarity, smut and filth.
The media reports trivial things, not the abuses and destruction of the society that proxies like you are helping to bring about unknowingly I actually believe.
I remember one Marxist meeting in college and we were sitting in a circle, like a cult, and I wouldnt agree that Abortion was right, what happened?
They tried to force me into their way of thinking, I soon left that indoctrination centre.
I dont need some guy 100 years ago (who was supported by the establishment by the way) dictating to me how to live, what the struggle of life is. Think of the millions that died of this evil Ideology , millions and I ask anyone to deny this.
And to deny that culture cannot come from a particular race is complete nonsense.
Sorry but I know from experience you are wrong and I hope you wake up some day.

by Seán Ryan Wed Apr 05, 2006 20:36

Let me address your mud slinging problem first.

You have consistently demonstrated either your stupidity or your inept attempt to spin what I have had to say. You repeat the same tired shite again and again even after it has been proven to you that you are wrong. Your last post contains no addition to this piece and is further proof of your ability or rather your disability in as far as getting to the point is concerned. Instead you concentrated on your own ill considerd brush with marxism. You harp on about how I'm a proxy for forces that ruin this country. But then you pretend to soften the blow by saying I do not comprehend what it is I do. This is mud slinging too. However it is passive agressive mud slinging. Ie. your preferred modus operandi. Which in truth is the modus operandi of a wannabe backstabber spin doctor.

You get an F for your effort. (And I'll bet you can guess what the F stands for)

For the last time let me deal once again with your fevered imagining that CULTURE is genetic.

Is Pop culture genetic?

Is hippy culture genetic.

Is the drugs culture genetic.

Culture is a thing inspired by people who by the way are derrived genetically, culture isn't. Of course you know this already, afterall you have already offered dictionary definitions of 'culture' that again offered no proof that culture is genetic, but indeed offered proof that it wasn't.

Please wake the fuck up and see how pathetic you are being. The rest of the world can.

by Plato Thu Apr 06, 2006 13:03

No need to comment on the Vulgarity of your language, I think perhaps you might need some culture yourself.

by historian Thu Apr 06, 2006 13:29

Plato gets the verdict. Fight would be stopped in round three. Sean of course resorts to the typical leftist tactic of personal abuse rather than deal with a set of coherent arguments. Ones he has probably not heard before becasue his ilk cannot countenance alternative theories and philosophies. Like Plato I was once a Marxist and from a combination of seeing at first hand what socialism was actually like and a rigorous intellectual examination of the basis of Marxism - aided by reading people like Popper and Berlin - I came to similar conclusions. Sean, you could do with some similar reading.

by April Fool Thu Apr 06, 2006 14:08

Human Genome project announces discovery of 'dancing at the crossroads' gene with tight linkage to 'red hair and freckles gene'

by pat c Thu Apr 06, 2006 14:26

'red hair and freckles gene' the genes which give expression to this are also located in population pockets in Algeria, Morroco, Libya, Lebanon and Syria. As for the dancing, Bob Quinn has written* on the similarities between Irish dancing, music and culture those of North Africa; in particular the Berbers and Morrocans.

"The Atlantean Irish"
by Bob Quinn
(Lilliput Press 2005)

by Plato Thu Apr 06, 2006 16:28

Agreed Historian I just don't understand the irrationality of some of these people, you try and have an honest debate and it just debases into a Mud-Slinging match.
Actually when I left the SWP in college it was quite scary three or four "comrades" were (always) turning up at my door trying to intimidate me to going back to their meetings! I mean come off it what is this Scientology?

I mean all this borgoise nonsense oppression of the workers, but when these guys get in power the first thing they do is masacare the workers themselves.
Thinking of those poor peasants in Russia what they did executing people in every village and hanging them on trees as a warning, Tinamen Square etc.
Now I'm not accusing anyone here of that, but I'm saying this is were it all inevitably leads too. And I am not for 100% the Market ruling the roost either. Ther must be an equilibrium of Ideas of whats actually good for society.

by Seán Ryan Sat May 20, 2006 19:47

It's been a while since I updated this piece.

Since my last posting I've been described as an extremist left winger by the Evening Herald - because of my picture of McDowell.

Yup the picture caused a shitstorm. But not a singular word about the article itself, except when the now defunct indymediawatch Ireland quoted the start of my article. The "nigger bit." They/he didn't bother to explain my usage of it however.

Osman Hotak and many other men and children wait to die in a Dublin cathedral today, whilst the government say who these men and children can and cannot talk to.

No freedom association. No freedom of speech.

I stopped talking on this post a while back to give the idiot/attention speakers a chance to peter out. They do not know how to argue or debate, with them it's all about shouting down. When there's nobody to shout down their contribution ends. They will prove this when this post is shouted down in the usual moronic fashion.

Our nation is in an acute state of peril as has been my stance from the start. The last week has proven this conclusively. 10,000 people can turn up in Limerick to celebrate an historic and incredible Young Munster win in Cardiff (Yes!!! A royal and moral asrekicking!!). However only a handfull give a shit as to whether Osman and friends kill himself and themselves here in the land of "Cead Míle Fáilte," or whether McDowell sends them off to die elsewhere. I'm not taking from the support for, or from the victory in Cardiff, it's well deserved.

Humanity is a good cause too.