Ógra Shinn Féin member harassed

by ''Real'' Republican Thu Mar 02, 2006 16:44

if you choose the republican path,you must face the fact that you will recieve harassment at the hands of your enemy

Now Sinn Feins youth troop,because it accepts British rule,that they are immune to harrassment,this is laughable,OSF are nothing more then a PR tool used by Gerry and co to show off middle class,10 kinute republicans,they have no position in this movement

by Frank Thu Mar 02, 2006 18:12

"Real" Republican is an idiot. Ogra SF are the most radical youth group in Ireland today. They campaign on issues that really matter to radical young people. They are not a PR tool for the Party but are the cutting edge of the Republican Struggle. Ogra SF is a vibrant youth movement and is what differentiates the Republican movement from the boring corrupt, dry politics of the establishment parties.

by Marie Stopes Thu Mar 02, 2006 18:19

Whats the OSF position on Abortion? Under what circumstances do OSF support a womans right to Abortion?

by Abortion is murder Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:35

Why bring up this arguement on a posting about PSNI harrassment?

I personally and morally believe that abortion is murder. However I have seen the pro-choice lobby at work and your politics do not match your moral fibre.

Will someone from the pro-choice lobby support the right of women to equal rights in, employment,education, wages and before the law when it comes to domestic violence?
Will you protect the right of children to free health care, a childhood free from poverty and the right of their parents to education?

OSF believe in a true democratic socialist Ireland..which will protect the rights of all of the children on this island equally...do you?

by Marie Stopes Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:43

The OSF member claimed that OSF support radical policies. My question is therefore relevant. But if you are giving the OSF line then it is obviously a rightwing Group.

Even George W. Bush supports Abortion in three cases: Threat to Mothers life, Rape, Incest. That puts you to the right of Dubya.

by ede g - Ógra shinnféin Fri Mar 03, 2006 14:27 eiresaoirse32 at yahoo dot com Monaghan 567657

You just keep on Quoteing George w Marrie stoops seems you have a lot in common. I not too surprized the Ruc/Psni/loyalthugs
are harrassing young republican's as they are still paying the Greysteel bombers jonny Adair and his mate john white £50,000 a year, john white in fact murdered a sdlp member and is in the pay of the Psni but the sdlp 'police' board members have not even asked why, shame on them and all there pro brit loyalist feeders. mark Haddock and co Leaving a Bomb in Monaghan in 1997 is in the pay of the psni also according to pat Rabbite in the free state assembly, how low can the sdlp/Finnafáil west brits go in supporting this terror in Éire, after 9/11 it cant be accepted Disband the Ruc/Psni

Disband the Bolton wanderers

by Marie Stopes Fri Mar 03, 2006 14:32

Now either OSF is a radical group and supports a Womans right to abortion or it isnt. Bluster will get you nowhere. Dubya supports abortion in 3 cases. Do OSF support abortion at all?

by DCC Fri Mar 03, 2006 15:07

Of course OSF does not support abortion. They'd much rather see you come to maturity before they kill you.

by ede - Ógra Shinnféin Fri Mar 03, 2006 17:06 Monaghan 657787868

As a member of Pro Life I support the Life of the UnBorn and Mother Radical or not your opinion , other members of Ógra shinnféin have a Difference of opinion from myself but as an Orgainisation we dont think the Topic is one that is solely Political ,as the Division on non political Grounds in Ireland to the issue is Huge, Were More interested in Understanding both sides, so individual members can make the right judgements , Rather than toeing the Line of established political thinkers in our Elder Party or Other Groups, But ive made my informed Choice clear and have difference of opinion with Both the sinnféin party and Pro Life but my views are Listened too as are theirs Tiocfaidh ar Lá P.s The only time an x is important for pro choice is when it comes to a referendum I Havent heard a word
since then shame

by Marie Stopes Fri Mar 03, 2006 18:03

If you havent heard a word then you havent been listening or reading the Pro Choice articles on Indymedia. But lets get down to brass tacks: what is OSFs position on Abortion? Please answer that simple question.

by Tom Shelley Sat Mar 04, 2006 02:16

I can't believe this.

First, to a very large degree, OSF's position on abortion is SF's. I'm not certain what elbow room they have on that issue to take a different position.

SF's position is that they support access to abortion when the mother or fetus/baby is at risk, in cases of rape or incest, and when the mother is suicidal.

Below I have pasted the relevant portion of an earlier discussion, found at http://www.indymedia.ie/article/73907

I should add that when I attended the 2002 National Congress of OSF in Galway, I was told that probably 90% of OSF members would vote against the abortion referendum that Ireland had a couple days after the conference. Everything I've heard indicates that a large minority of SFers are pro-choice.

The idea that abortion alone determines if an organization is radical or not is largely nonsense. In America there are lots of radicals who are pro-life, but not in an extreme way, and they fully support access to contraception and other measures that make it easier for women to avoid having an abortion. If someone is really good on all women's issues except abortion, they can still be a radical (assuming of course they're also radical on stuff like labor, anti-racism, etc.).

It's possible that current members of OSF are more conservative than they were 4 years ago, but I doubt it.

Tom

****************

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/73907
Sinn Fein is anti-abortion
by Saoirse Thu Jan 26, 2006 18:19

Tom Shelley - I don't know where you get the idea from that Sinn Fein supports abortion rights. It does not. Its position is basically that of the Supreme Court in the South. That is, it supports the right to abortion if a woman's LIFE is in danger, including if it is endangered by suicide. Not only has it refused to support extension of the 1967 Abortion Act to the North [and don't go telling me that's because it's a british act, they are happy enough to support british legislation to free prisoners etc] but when Minister for Health, Bairbre de Brun defended the present situation in the High Court against the Family Planning Association. Not only did she refuse to publish guidelines as to when abortion is legal in the North, she allowed officials to argue that only 4 of the 1600 women who travelled to ENgland for abortions in 1998 were entitled to legal abortions in NI - thus excluding women who have been raped or whose health was being damaged by a pregnancy.

SF did have a pro-choice policy for a year in the late 80s, after repubicans from Derry had a motion passed supporting a woman's right to choose. But the leadership quickly moved to reverse the decision and now that the party is going for power, there is no hope of it supporting a woman's right to choose.

Abortion
by Tom Shelley Fri Jan 27, 2006 03:14

To a large degree this one was my fault- I meant something a little bit different than what I wrote. I meant that among the larger parties on the island, they are, along with Labour, the most pro-choice. I realize that they aren't completely pro-choice and that several smaller parties, including the PUP and I assume the SWP and SP, are completely pro-choice.

But between their, in the Irish context, relatively pro-choice position, and a few other items, what I said wasn't too far off.

1. The brief psoition in the 1980s you refer to.

2. sometime when the NI Assembly was actually meeting, I think in 2001, there was a debate on abortion. A DUPer had proposed a resolution saying that the assembly opposed the extension of the 1967 Abortion Act to NI. A women's Coalition member proposed an amendment which would completely change the resolution so that the issue of abortion would be referred to the Health committee for further research, discussion and then they would report back to the full Assembly. SF MLAs spoke and voted in favor of the WC amendment and amde it clear that there is a variety of opinions on the subject in SF and that the party is far from comitted to the anti-choice position. It was defeated, and I don't know if the Shinners voted for the DUP resolution- possibly the did.

3. SF was a full member of the pro-choice Alliance for a No Vote with Labour, the Greens, and some feminist organization during the 2002 Abortion referendum.

So, what I actually wrote was wrong. But that doesn't mean SF isn't close to being pro-choice. They are.

Tom

by ede - Ógra shinnféin Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:24 eiresaoirse32 at yahoo dot com Monaghan 7676675

Not reading and not listening, well read my column again, Ógra shinn féins posisition is freedom to choose our own individual beliefs , We are a revolutionary 32 county Youth movement that needs not to label its youth but to Let them Educate and be Educated, as the other parties only have youthmembers in the 26 or 6, Im not surprised they dont have a wide range of views to Debate with, Our membership has its own motions and policy different too our Elder party, we accept motions from for or against on anything young people in Ireland as a whole want , so come along to are next National congress and have your say.

http://www.gargaro.com/abortion/quotes.html

New Way New Life

by Tom Shelley Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:51

I could be mistaken when I said that OSF's abortion policy is basically SF's. Even in 2002 when I attended the OSF Congress I wasn't completely familiar with how such things work, and that was 4 years ago. But since no one had responded to Marie's posts by referring to an OSF resolution or policy document or something, it seems safe to assume that A) OSF hasn't developed their own position, and therefore B) SF's abortion policy is basically OSF's.

Tom

by ede - Ógra Shinnféin Sat Mar 04, 2006 15:44 eiresaoirse32 at yahoo dot com Monaghan 54676767

If you Like Me had been attending the National congress every year since 2002 you might Have been able to Debate the issue with us tom, But ah well perhaps you Knew Better And Informed Yourself ,With the knowledge that you expressed with us im sure its a right Bark.

by Marie Stopes Sat Mar 04, 2006 19:42

I dont think that an organisations policy on abortion alone defines its radicalness. But it is a pointer. Dont you find it interesting that Ede has provided a link to an Anti Choice site rather than telling us what OSFs policy on abortion is?

by Tom Shelley Sun Mar 05, 2006 01:31 Boulder, CO, USA

I'm not quite sure what Ede is saying with that last post. Do you think I am attacking OSF? Do you think I am talking down to OSF?

I am a critical supportor of SF, I largely support them but reserve the right to criticize them when I disagree.

Also, I used to, and probably should have been during this debate, filling out the "ADDRESS" part of the add comments form. I'm American, I live in Colorado, travel to Ireland is expesive, especially since I went there again in 2002 during the marching season (I was, without particioating, in both riots on the Springfield Rd, and spent a lot of time hanging out with OSF friends). Since I spent so much money going there in 2002, I haven't gone since. Not to mention I'm now 30 and not a student, so I probably wouldn't attend OSF conferences anyway.

Anyway, I was, at least from my pro-choice but open-minded perspective, DEFENDING OSF.

Marie- I can understand how you saw Ede's responses as suspicious, but I still think you're slightly exxagerating how important the abortion issue is in terms of determining a group's radicalness.

Tom

by dink - ósf Sun Mar 05, 2006 14:52

unfortunately ósf really don't have any separate policy on abortion to what sinn feins is. this is incredibly dissappointing for someone who is an active member in ósf but also and active por-choice campaigner.

i wasn't able to attend this years national congress so i'm not sure of the argument that was put on there, but as far as i'm aware the same stance as previous years was carried over. but i was able to attend the year before where the pro-choice motion put forward was defeated by about 10 votes. the year before that there were that many motions put forward at the ósf national congress that it was decided that a special conference would be held and all the motions relating to abortion were postponed until then. this congress took place and was chaired by a member of ósf who was on the national officerboard at the time. i can't remember the exact wording of the motion but whatever it was would have resulted in ósf taking an active pro-choice standing. when it came to the vote, it was exactly 50/50 on each side and the deciding vote was cast by the chairperson who defeated the motion leaving ogra policy on abortion as it was. thats the closest that ósf has come to having a pro-choice policy and it was decided by one vote so i think its a bit unfair to try and paint it as a conservative pro-life worshipping kids.

by ''Real'' Republican - 32CSM Tue Mar 07, 2006 15:51

Sinn Fein are the worst sell outs to emerge since Michael Collins and De Valera,not only did the PIRA publicily decommission its arms in front of a pro-British body they publicly surrendered,not even the officials did that,down with Sinn Fein the sell outs of the Republic,traitors like this should be dealt with

UP ''REAL'' IRA
OGLAIGH NA HEIREANN

by Marie Stopes Tue Mar 07, 2006 15:59

Tom and Dink I was just trying to find out what the OSF policy is. You get a lot of bluster here and its interesting to have Ede revealed in his true colours. I still think SF is a radical Party but I would like to see a bit more dissent from the Leadership Line by OSF.

by Protestant Irish Speaker - None Thu May 29, 2008 13:21

I read & abhor all acts of HARRASSMENT - however, it seems that Sinn Fein deliberately ignore the many acts of HARRASSMENT of Protestants in the Border Region of Ireland. I personally experienced such an act last year while attending a Friendship Cross-Community Church Service at a Protestant Church. A "gate-crasher" & local Sinn Fein Activist proceeded to ask several people at the Service of their backgrounds - especially any who had served in the British Forces. This was extremely uncomfortable for me, as I had left Ireland in the late 1950's to seek work in England. While there I was called up for National Service as many fellow Irishmen were. The "gate-crasher & Sinn Fein Activist" took a very aggressive
approach to his questions & left many people in a state of shock.
Is this the way that Sinn Fein hope to coerce Protestant people into their "New Ireland" ? I would npot wish to live in this New Ireland if this is the proposed Sinn Fein version of Human Rights which we could expect.