Anti Deportations Demo/Possible Deportation

by nell Mon Mar 27, 2006 00:22

the debate on immigration and asylum is a serious one but the comments made by RAR need to be constantly challenged. They are so misinformed it is shocking. Emma's comments about Nigerians facing capital punishment after deportation is simply subjective hearsay. Ireland is bound by article 2 and 3 of the ECHR which prevents non-refoulement. Ireland would be violating EU and international law if there was objective proof of such an outcome. This decision is made 'after' appeal at the RAT and substantive 1st instance decision at ORAC. Asylum seekers are not illegal immigrants when they apply for asylum, HOWEVER, they 'are' illegal immigrations when they arrive first in the country. When they are to be deported they have exhausted all legal humanitarian and refugee-related avenues. At this stage they 'are NO LONGER ASYLUM SEEKERS'. They legally have no basis in Ireland and are 'failed asylum seekers'. Unless the high court grants them a judicial review they have no legal basis to remain and can be deported BUT NOT as asylum seekers. For God's sake RAR get your facts right before embarking on your rants.... And yes the system is not perfect and needs to be improved. The EU asylum directive will impose new procedures called 'complementary protection' or 'subsidiary protection' under the remit of ORAC. This may ensure better humanitarian protection to those who need and deserve it (and that includes Nigerians).

by phm Sun Mar 26, 2006 21:36

Fact:
Ireland does not deport asylum seekers. It very occasionally deports failed asylum-seekers. Ireland, in keeping with international law, occasionally prevents entry of illegal immigrants coming from safe third countries.

Ireland as a soverign country has a right to decides which aliens may or may not reside here. Ireland has decided to restrict the execise of its soverignty in accordance with the principles of international law and conventions on refugees.
Irish immigration and asylum laws provide safeguards and observe standards which go far beyond the requirements of these laws and conventions.
Irish asylum-processing procedures were recently recognized by the UN as being among the most scrupulous in the world.

The large percentage of asylum-seekers from Africa who decide to have thmselves trafficked through safe EU countries in order to make their applications in Ireland gives lie to the ridiculous allegation that Ireland is particularly racist.
________________________________________________

There are upward of 125 million people in Nigeria. How many of these do you think have a right to reside in Ireland?
1. Those who have genuine grounds for claiming political asylum as decided by the UN approved asylum-processing system?
2. All those who have the means to pay large sums of cash to criminal gangs to traffic them here?
3. Just those whose children get 400 points in their leaving-certs?
4. Just those who are clients of unelected pressure groups, or whose claims are highlighted by journalists?
________________________________________________

Asylum seekers have an opportunity to put thir stories to ORAC. If ORAC decides they have no grounds or that their stories lack credibility, they have a right to appeal to the RAT with legal counsel provided free to them by the Irish taxpayer. If they fail to provide a convincing case (to the low standard of proof required of them), they can apply to the High Court if they have grounds for claiming that they were dealt with unfairly. There are literally hundreds of these JRs before the courts with lawyers queuing up to represent the applicants. Most of these JR's fail on substantive grounds, (with the factual claims made by the applicants discovered to be completely without foundation), despite the very low 'cross-bar' set by the courts in these matters.

One of the most important requirements in combatting racism and ensuring inter-communal harmony is an immigration system which the indiginous community has confidence in. Ireland is in the process of absorbing, amazingly successfully, large numbers of legal immigrants. This whole process, and a benign future for both native Irish and legal immigrant families, was being jeopardized by bogus asylum-seekers and the Irish baby scam. McDowell (whatever his faults) is owed a debt of gratitude by all of us for sorting out this mess.

by Observer Sat Mar 18, 2006 15:13

The National Economic and Social council, a week and a half ago, said that Ireland needs to have more control on immigration into this country and in the event of an economic slump, Irish people would find it very difficult to find jobs. It also stated that bosses shouldn't be allowed to decide who should be allowed in the country.

by Man Tue Mar 14, 2006 22:19

Interesting comment. Even though the UN officially recognises Nigeria as a safe country.

by Enda Tue Mar 14, 2006 08:05

Copy & Paste removed, and link provided below.

by Clear Twas Mon Mar 13, 2006 16:46

(Nigerians alone indeed have provisions attached to them.)

So you say.

Even though mysteriously, you cannot bring yourself to reveal what these provisions are.

by Enda Mon Mar 13, 2006 16:11

Curious

If these guys split and go underground it is probably because they have genuine fears concerning what they would face if they are taken back to Nigeria. I doubt if you can prove that Nigerians have a high rate of criminal convictions please it will not be particularly wise for us to make statements we cannot prove.

Clear Twas
Nigerians alone indeed have provisions attached to them.

by Clear Twas Mon Mar 13, 2006 13:46

Hi Enda,

I'm not sure I understand your objection. Can you provide a link?

Are you talking about those with deportation orders or those in the fast track system?

If you are suggesting that Nigerians alone have a provision assigned to them, you may have a valid point.

However, you do mention "Nigerian asylum seekers are among only a few countries..........".

This would imply that whatever you are referring to, is not aimed at Nigerians alone and therefore, could not be deemed to be discriminatory to Nigerians.

by curious Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:06

The reason they are so closely observed has to do with the massive amount of baseless claims made, not to mention their propensity for disappearing before their claims are assessed, or the high rate of criminal convictions.

by Enda Mon Mar 13, 2006 06:24

The fact that Nigerian asylum seekers are among only a few countries mandated to sign every morning with department of justice officials is highly discriminatory

by Clear Twas Sat Mar 11, 2006 19:56

Point taken Enda.

You have not shown discrimination against Nigerians that I can see. Can you elaborate?

by Enda Sat Mar 11, 2006 19:21

Clear Twas,
I have a serious problem with the way Nigerians have been singled out for discrimination. One thing I agree with you though is that we need to be fair and firm in the way we process assylum application. lastly I am not a Nigerian so please note that.

by Clear Twas Sat Mar 11, 2006 15:39

Essie,

Deportations are unpleasant and very easy to exploit for propaganda purposes. Whilst your account is moving it is missing some vital facts. All deportees are offered voluntary repatriation. There is no reason for any individual to leave in the manner you describe unless they refuse to leave.

The fact that Prime Time paid these individuals is disturbing. The program never mentioned that. As they were paid, I put even less store in their claims. What is the point in having a camera crew fly 3000 miles and not give them the story they wanted and taking the money?

Your point on the children possibly dying from malaria only for Prime Time is stretching credibility to breaking point. Did people like yourself not think to send money to this individual if you truly believed this?

You ask is it fair to deport these women after four years. I can only speak for myself. I believe it is not just fair but long overdue. A message needs to be sent that this country does not reward unsustainable or ineligible claims for asylum. I welcome the removal of illegal immigrants as quickly as possible and any steps that make this possible.

Enda,

If you take a look at the headlines in any Irish paper, I guarantee you will find plenty to worry about. From todays Irish Independent alone:

A mother left to die on a hospital trolley.
A warning to the public to avoid hospitals if they don’t want to get ill.
A murderer sentenced for the killing and rape.
A man convicted for slicing open a tennagers stomach with a knife
Various stories about the drugs epidemic
Various stories about political corruption.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/index.php3?ca=9&...13798

Yet, I guarantee that not one individual will leave this state and claim asylum in Nigeria.

You are simply putting all the negative stories from your own country together in the hope that one will impress. But, they couldn’t possibly all apply to you personally. Perhaps one of the reasons for your frustration is because no-one has explained to you exactly what a political refugee is. The persecution must be directed and targeted at you personally and specifically and you must have no other option but to flee the entire state for safety and claim asylum in the first country you enter that is a signatory to the refugee’s convention.

The biggest problem with Nigerians here is that there are far too many ineligible claims from that state, in this state to be a coincidence. Half of all claims in Europe. Yet, there is no direct connection with Ireland. There are no great historical connections with Ireland. There is little cultural similarity.

We are neither ungenerous nor unsympathetic and there is plenty of proof of that.

We have accepted a number of asylum claims as legitimate and we have also allowed thousands to stay based on the Irish born child mess we created and resolved. Despite the fact that refugee status is designed to be temporary and effective only as long as a threat remains, I know of no instance where a Nigerian convention refugee has been removed.

We still consider your asylum claims knowing that there is often organised intent to deceive us. When we do remove one of your citizens, another multiple arrives and the overall numbers of Nigerians here keeps on rising.

We are fast approaching an overall billion euro spend for majority bogus asylum claims in the last few years. We don’t process asylum claims in the media. We pay dearly for others to do that and we respect the outcome, positive or negative, particularly when we are told that by leading lights in the UNHCR that our treatment of asylum applicants is fair, generous and an example to the rest of the world.

We do this despite the fact that a number of Nigerians are in our prisons for a variety of offences including fraud, rape and battery of both Nigerian and Irish citizens.

Fairness and the law demands that if you have a valid claim for political asylum, you will find refuge. If you do not have a valid claim, you must leave.

I believe the majority of Irish people would appreciate if you would do so with dignity and leave us to worry about our own countries many problems whilst you make the necessary efforts to resolve your own.

Sarah,

I agree with your point. When a clear message is sent out that claiming asylum is pointless without a valid claim and will lead to deportation, we can then process legitimate claims in an expedient fashion.

by Sarah Sat Mar 11, 2006 15:31

Clear Twas,
The reason why it takes long to process the applications of the Somalis is because justice department has decided to treat the applications of Nigerians, Romanian and a few other countries first so there is no time to treat other applications.

by Enda Sat Mar 11, 2006 08:59

Clear Twas,
What I am saying is why is discriminate against Nigerians.
Situation in Nigeria is not different from that in Irag the only difference is that coalition forces have not yet invaded Nigeria.
Muslim fundamentalist attacked and burned churches in Northern Nigeraia because of the Prophet Mohammed(SAW) cartoons Nigeria, Insurgents and local militias ae kidnapping foreigners, Nigerian airforce has beeen bombing linnocent citizens, the President has just ammended the constitution to enable him stay for another four years, women have no rights, The President uses the EFCC to keep dissenting voices in check. Inspite of all these ORAC only uses information from advertorials by the Nigerian Governement as evidence that everything is alright in the country. ORAC should use information from independent bodies and NGO that is the only way they can know what the reality on the ground is. Pardon me if I am being emotional here it is because I have volunteered in Nigeria so I know what I am talking about. During the period when I volunteered I saw people undergoing untold hardship. I saw people who are slaves to harmfull practices and traditions which the government is totally powerless to deal with. The police turn the other way when crimes are being committed infact we were robbed by Policemen at a check point, they took our money wrist watches, belts, sneakers and even half eaten chocolates. Nigerian are facing persecution in their country and that is not a lie, neither the police no the governement offers them any protection.ORAC needs to change its perception about Nigerians. I agree some stories may sound outrageous but if these stories are checked out you will find them to be true. Strange things happen out there in Nigeria believe me.

by Essie Sat Mar 11, 2006 03:07

I would like to comment on Nigerian deportation from personal experience. On March 15 2005 a deportation took place. I personally knew some of the women who were deported. They knew the sentence of deportation hung heavily over them but they did not know the date.

They tried, as best they could, to get a judicial review. Keep in mind that those people are not familiar with our legal system (like most Irish people until they have a requirement) and the wheels in the legal system turn slowly. Also, at that time, and even now there are not many solicitors familiar with the strategies involved in obtaining a judicial review and most are too busy with their regular work load to get involved. Apart from that the fees charged for instigating a judicial review are huge.

In any event those people were deported. Amongst them was a Nigerian mother who became ill on the journey and was not allowed to go to the toilet on route to Dublin. She was put on board the plane with a drip attached to her arm. This is factual and was well documented at the time.

To return to the two women I referred to earlier. Their situation in Lagos was investigated by Prime Time on national TV May 2005. It made horrific viewing. Both women were sharing one room and one bed with their two children. This room has no cooking, washing or toilet facilities. Both have been ill since their deportation. Their children required hospital care as a result of malaria. They used the money received from the Prime Time programme to buy this care, otherwise their children could have died.

Nigeria is not a safe place, particularly for women. I might add that both those women had been in Ireland for almost four years.

In all honesty was it fair to deport them after such a length of time?

by Clear Wtas Fri Mar 10, 2006 19:01

Enda,

In an almost bizarre coincidence, there is another thread here with Somali asylum seekers, wielding posters, complaining bitterly that their applications are taking so long to consider. What do you advocate exactly? Asylum decisions taking years or asylum decisions taking weeks?

I am aware of one suicide of a failed asylum seeker; however, I am far from convinced that his deportation order was the sole reason for same. The individual may have had a long history of personal problems, depression or psychiatric problems. I do not know and I suspect you do not either. But you strike me as the type who likes the sound bite. Perhaps that explains your wild statement regarding the workings of the ORAC. I guess you know more than the UNHCR about these things too.

Ireland does not deport individuals "back to a life of misery, hunger, death from easily preventable disease" as you claim, as policy, if at all. Ireland deports foreign individuals back to their home countries as is our internationally recognised legal right to do when they have no right, permission, or legal reason to be here.

But that’s asylum. You are not talking about that right? Unless you think that misery or hunger is a reason to grant political refugee status. You are hardly that naive and ill-informed right? You do know what political refugee status is – right?

If you can think of a scheme that would allow people to come here for the specific reasons you have mentioned, I would love to hear it. I would also like to hear your thoughts on the selection criteria. Who would you leave behind? Why? Would you include those who already have the means to jet off to foreign countries for example?

Pray tell how €50,000 spent on processing unending and majority ineligible asylum claims in Ireland is better value for taxpayers money than spending the same amount digging wells for water or planting crops in Africa.

That would be alleviating poverty hunger and disease right? That is your point – right?

by Enda Fri Mar 10, 2006 07:17

Clear Wtas,
Are you aware that there is a fast track system for Nigerians where in less than three weeks applications for asylum are heard and refused and some are not given the option of oral appeal at the tribunal. Are you also aware that some one committed suicide instead of submitting himself to deportation. When you deport someone you are sending them back to a life of misery, hunger, death from easily preventable disease and you put them back at the mercy of those who they ran in the first place and that is why they would rather run undergroud that go back.Nigerians are not giving a fair hearing by ORAC and that is the truth.

by Clear Wtas Thu Mar 09, 2006 19:52

Can you point out a single incident where Ireland deported a Nigerian back to his or her death?

If you accept that we cannot allow everyone in, where would you suggest we stop and how would you suggest we implement that?

by Enda Thu Mar 09, 2006 15:05

We all seem to forget that some of our own people are in America begging to be legally recognised. Africa can be a dangerous place to live in but Ireland is not.The Africans here have been driven out by some well grounded fears. What persecution drove the Irish to America?.
If a person would rather comit suicide than go back to Nigeria shouldn't we then have a rethink about our hard stance on asylum seekers from that country.I am not saying we should open our doors to about every body that comes here seeking asylum but please let us not fast track them back to their death.

by Havanna Wed Mar 08, 2006 19:49

Emma,

Would love to respond but seeing as you insist on being personally abusive, I will decline.

I am subject to posting guidelines.

I note that such abuse, not to mention agressivenes is something of a feature of RAR.

They must be delighted to have you on board.

by Emma-RAR - RAR/WSM Wed Mar 08, 2006 14:20

Our immigration system is unfair and not to mention racist to the core if which I doubt you have read a decision that people are given when first initially are given to why their application is turned down you would see how ridiculous and actually uneducated the decisions are. Again asylum seekers are not illegal immigrants and Ireland has an obligation to except people who are at risk of political and religious persecution and other human rights abuses.

First RAR have no leaders. Some of the people on that flight face capital punishment which Ireland does not have and it is a human rights abuse and deporting people who visa has expired just shows how ideologically obsessed McDowell is with deportations

So Deporting people is in the interests of Irish peoples safety? Dont be ridiculous and in which way does it serve to protect Irish people with the deportation of women and children and those who face capital punishment and other human rights abuses?. Idiot.

by Enda Mon Mar 06, 2006 15:12

The Government in Nigeria is corrupt,Kidnappings occur everyday,
The Goverbnment does not care about its citizens availing of police protection in Nigeria is not an option. Majority of the citizens live in abject poverty and squalor, Medical care is not free even for the most indigent. Ethnic and religious animosity exist and the nations elite usually fuel pogroms for their own selfish ends. Didn't you also hear that the presidfent of Nigeria wants to amend the constiutution so that he can serve for life. You need to have a clear understanding of all the issue because only then can you understand why RAR seems to focus more on Nigerians.

Thank you

by Havanna Sun Mar 05, 2006 22:21

If in that timeframe, another 1500 people claimed asylum, of whom, no more than 5% were legitimate, could we call that a "mass invasion" of illegal immigrants?

I recall the deportation to China. The Evening Herald covered the story. They also quoted your RAR leader who was disgusted at the deportation of the individuals, one a convicted murderer and another a convicted rapist.

Something about their human rights I think. I keep forgetting that your lot don't seem to believe that Irish people have a right to their own safety first, never mind a reasonable expectation of legitimate implementation of their domestic and international laws regarding immigration and political asylum.

by Emma-RAR - RAR/WSM Sun Mar 05, 2006 19:38

The last mass deportation to Nigeria was on December 8th but starting from the start of 2005 the first was 18th March to Nigeria, July to Nigeria Moldova and Romania, October to Nigeria and then December 8th to Nigeria and then this year so far over 10 to China and now in the next couple of weeks there will be a mass deportation to Nigeria it is not a claim that this state carries out mass deportations it is a fact.

by Curious Fri Mar 03, 2006 20:02

Can you just tell me when the last deportation took place if we are what some people claim; a country that carries out 'mass' deportations? Some time before christmas I believe... Nearly 4 months....

by Jerry Cornelius Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:30

Put a smile on my face this morning passing the PD HQ, the windows are still boarded up. Perhaps Mary Harney is in there in the dark doing her pilates as Jerry Cowley suggested.

by Jerry Cornelius Thu Mar 02, 2006 18:29

I just passed by the PD HQ. The windows are still boarded up. Times must be tough for McDowell and company. You think the Capitalists would send them a few quid after all the PDs have done for them. Any volunteers to paint the boards on the windows? At least it would brighten the place up.

by Emma-RAR per cap - RAR/WSM Thu Mar 02, 2006 17:36

Seskin an asylum seeker is not an illegal immigrant.
When an asylum seeker gets a deportation order they are told to report to the gnib to comply with there deportation from the state but they are not told which date they will be deported on. Asylum seekers are usually with refugee legal service which are in most cases are hopeless and they never take on Judical Reviews, if a person is with a private solicitor many of them are rip off merchants and want money out of people before they apply for anything and if you are familiar with direct provision program no one can afford to pay E2000 for a JR on E19 a week there are a few good solicitors but they are few and far between in relation to asylum applications and by the time a person gets a deportation order it can be too late to switch.

When I have been with people in the gnib when there is a deportation what they are told by immigration officals usually is you'll be back down stairs in a few minutes when asked if there is going to be a deportation and of course they are not they are taken out the back entrance to Dublin airport.

It is really hard to determine what day a deportation is going to be on not even a solicitor will know until that morning or afternoon usually you know by the amount of people who have to sign at the gnib in the space of a couple of weeks and if they are detaining people in custody.

There thankfully was no deportation today but people have been picked up from certain parts of the country and a whole hostel in Cork were picked up tuesday, and we have got word from others who are in cloverhill and mountjoy waiting deportation we suspect there will be a deportation on the 9th of Marchor on the 16th they are usually on or near bank holidays and last year the deportation was on the 18th of March so it is not looking good and as always we would ask people to turn out for support on those dates.

by seskin Thu Mar 02, 2006 16:42

sign on for what?

All failed asylum seekers - i.e. illegal immigrants - are written to, to inform them of any intention to deport and their options.

Are u saying this is not what happens now?

by pat c Thu Mar 02, 2006 16:20

asylum seekers come in to sign on and are seized with no advance warning. this happens all the time.

by seskin Thu Mar 02, 2006 15:54

Thats complete rubbish Pat.

If this notice of deportation can be posted almost 2 weeks before a deportation, what is stopping those people seeking legal representation/injunctions well in advance?

by pat c Thu Mar 02, 2006 15:32

"Asylum Seeker
Asylum Seekers are persons who seek to be recognised as a refugee in accordance with the terms of the 1951 Convention. An asylum seeker has a legal right to seek refuge in Ireland under the terms of the Geneva Convention – they are not “illegal immigrants” but legally resident while they are in the asylum process. "

more details at the link below.

attempts are often made to illegally deport asylum seekers. even if they have lost their last appeal they still have a right to go to the courts to seek a judicial review. immigration officials try and bypass the rights of asylum seekers by refusing them access to solicitors.

by pat c Thu Mar 02, 2006 15:24

still not clear if deportations are going to take place today. members of RAR, grassroots/dissent & wsm present (more may have arrived since i left). indy photographer present.

by seskin Thu Mar 02, 2006 15:16

This article says that asylum seekers are to be deported.

Does anyone in RAR understand what an asylum seeker is?

Could they look up the definition as either they are right and Ireland is about to deport asylum seekers for the very first time in breach of international law or this post in breach of posting guidelines by being factually incorrect.

by Hagar Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:59

Is the Demo going ahead?