How Quebec voted and "not voted"

by iosaf Mon Sep 21, 2009 21:46

Believe it or not there is actually a little connection between the subjects of this movie and the treaty the proud and sovreign Irish voter is about to deal with for the second time.

There are no provisions in any of the treaties of the EU currently ratified nor no instrument in treaties of the EU proposed (Such as Lisbon) to facilitate the independence of any new nation The Czech and Slovak republics dealt with our own Bertie Ahern after they had painted their respective post boxes different colours.

Many people including sadly the Scottish and Catalans think the Montenegrin 2006 referendum on secession from Serbia provides a internationally binding or applicable legal precedent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_independence_r..._2006

The only de facto independence or autonomy facilitated by the EU has been Kosovo.
Kosovo is not a de jure state (lacking still formal recognition by all EU members not to mention the UN) and is a de facto protectorate whose ultimate authority shifts from the EU to NATO. The sad story of Kosovo is impossible to understand without recognising it led to the South Ossetian and Abkhazian conflicts including Russia and Georgia of just over one year ago.
c/f my back article of 2008 "Recognising Kosovo" which I with remarkable foresight wrote under the author name "Abkhazian Basque with a South Ossetian granny. - (lucky to get on the national selection - I thank the eyebrows for that)" http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86293


You can hear an interview in English with the Canadian national broadcasting corporation & both of the directors of the documentary. http://castroller.com/podcasts/CbcRadioCest2/1234800

A quote from it might explain to many readers in Ireland why the film compares the three cases it does and doesn't include other cases such as Corsica or the Basque country. Jean-Pierre Roy simply says we thought to compare apples with apples . He of course said this in English, and it's so perfectly easy to understand that most English speakers including those in Ireland wouldn't even need to contemplate its deeper meaning when used in French as a bit of a proverb or Racine quotation ( c/f footnote* ).

So how do we compare apples with apples?
Do we think about the price per kilogram? the sweetness of a mature apple compared to the bitterness of the crab? Cider? Orchards?

or do you think there has to be one bad apple in every bushel?

There appears to be a concensus (though not expressed in this documentary) amongst the independence campaigners of Quebec, Scotland and Catalonia that armed struggle is not a sustainable option and that pretty much explains why it was abandoned so early on without even clocking up many deaths.

But the documentary trying its best to be impartial seems to suggest the main thing in common in the search or exercise of sovreignty experiences of these three national groups is about money. Money not in its big macro sense which only economist, bankers and people like the taoiseach can understand, (that money which is spent and invested or saved for rainy days) but rather the other sort of money which you think of as being in your very own paw and how much money you think that money might be worth without ever leaving your paw.......despite the obvious fact that not you don't call your hands paws and you never actually see the money you're thinking about.

we're talking real money - the imaginary stuff which doesn't exist. This is what people really mean when they ask aloud where your heart is.

________ . __________ . ________ . __________ . ________ . __________ . ________ . __________

Ireland and her independence, and her referenda are also about this real money, this imaginary stuff which though not existing by its mere mention can make the difference between a "Oui" and a "Non".

________ . __________ . ________ . __________ . ________ . __________ . ________ . __________

"National Matters," which was shot in 2007 and 2008, takes an unusual approach to deciphering Quebec's sovereignty debate by contrasting it with similar drives for independence in Scotland and Catalonia. "Scots and Quebecers have a lot in common in their nationalistic attitudes, in their relationships with their respective English - the English of Great Britain and the English of Canada," said Boire, who began considering the film project three decades ago. Jean-Pierre Roy said Scots wrestle with identity and also the legal and economic effects of a transition to independence. "We have the same kind of fear here in Quebec and Canada," said Roy, who voted Yes in the 1995 referendum and is now concerned about the survival of the French language and culture in Quebec. Roger Boire noted the Catalans share cultural and linguistic insecurity with Quebecers, something Roy notes is echoed by Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe in the movie when he talks about Quebecers' fear of assimilation. "It's a big connection with Catalonia and it's very emotional."
Most polls have indicated that Quebecers are tired of the sovereignty issue and don't want another referendum. Roy and Boire acknowledged that a lot of people didn't want to hear about sovereignty or the PQ (the Quebec independence party) after the 2007 election.

But by skillfully weaving together historical and current events and stirring in the international angle, the two men have come up with a fresh and engaging look at the subject. Boire points out that even though there isn't a lot of talk about sovereignty these days, the issue is still relevant. For instance, Quebec has never signed the Canadian Constitution and that's something that should concern everybody inside and outside the province, he says. "The fact that it is not solved, it makes a problem for English Canada too," Boire said. "I'm not sure we would have the same government in Ottawa if the Bloc Quebecois had not had such success in Quebec." Boire says he suspects most Quebecers are nationalist but they can't agree on what's best for the province - to go its own way or stay in Canada. It's a question academics could argue for "days, weeks, years and never give an answer that is objective," says Boire. "I think that at the end, for most people, it's a matter of the heart. Is your heart in Quebec or is your heart in Ottawa? For many people it's in both places but for some people it's only in Quebec." The filmmakers weren't sure which of the three countries they studied might become independent first but said many people suggest it could be Scotland."

Footnote : Many people know that it can often be difficult to distinguish a Canadian accent from the accent heard in much of the north western and central USA (without paying too much attention to falling cadences on some vowels). But it really is curious to hear these two Quebecker film-makers speak "Canadian English" with not only their "French Canadian" accents. Many readers who go to the link will hear what sounds like a French person speaking English. But these aren't French people speaking English. Just as the English spoken in Scotland is distinct from that used in England, the French of Quebec is unique. There is something very clever and profound in Roy's "apple" comparison. I don't have to explain why or cite its sophistication, because there is also something very foolish in the comparison and many of the sentiments expressed in the documentary.

Those who wonder at the caption of the illustration and why in this future Europe, the island of Ireland is still partitioned yet somehow Ulster has not been annexed by Scotland may enjoy watching the embedded Youtube clip of a Star Trek Next Generation episode which explains how 4 years later Irish re-unification occureth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8thJJDLang&feature=related

fantasy maps are cool. as you can see by 2020 the Scottish won't have annexed Ulster and the 40% of Portuguese who would now accept union with Spain will have been frustrated.

Caption: Video Id: -8thJJDLang&feature= Type: Youtube Video
this banned clip from Star Trek Next Generation explains how Ireland "would have got her reunification by 2024". thus this map oughtn't offend nationalists.

by iosaf Mon Sep 21, 2009 16:46

Having paid attention to many documentaries this year on diversity issues, I can write with authority that the special effects in the documentary National Questions by Roger Boire and Jean-Pierre Roy of Quebec are really very short of the high quality seen in the South African documenary "District 9".

[ plot spoiler ]

But the Quebecker offering to the current Montreal world film festival is not a thinly veiled critique of apartheid Joburg's townships, prawns, catfood, alien motherships or genetic mutations.It is rather a rolicking 92 minutes of comparative coverage of several decades of political activity and resultant societal dynamics associated with independent nation-state campaigns complete with interviews with people who despite knowing why they should be credited with indepedence have just never managed to get their heads on coins but at least haven't lost their heads or become martyrs.

Quebec, Scotland & Catalonia are the case studies.

here's a trailer in English language version : http://www.questionsnationales-lefilm.net/bande_annonce....html

francophone coverage over in Quebec where many readers might not know the largest ethnic group is of rish descent. http://www.voir.ca/publishing/article.aspx?zone=1§i...66187
http://www.ledevoir.com/2009/08/31/264910.html
& Telly report http://www.questionsnationales-lefilm.net/telejournalRC....html

by iosaf mac diarmada .:. ipsiphi Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:28

I am aware that every word, comment, dotted "i", visible or pronounced "b", pass at opinion or analysis, attempt at amateur news - has a value. & I'm thus I'm bringing attention to the last illustration and its accompanying comment. I reckon without going all "I know something you don't" that most people who look at indymedia ireland or whatever passes for "opinion, analysis and news" on the internet didn't know over a third of Quebecois think they're Irish. Perhaps because most people expect the Irish diasporia to only find edible grubs and roots or jobs in English speaking countries. Now pay attention because I'm only going to write this once. Many French politicians have invoked Quebecois independence almost as a vindication of their own metropole French-ness. As such De Gaulle could posture and more recently Segolene Royale could gaffe at the potential for self-determination the regular cries of "vive Quebec!" and "referendum!". But note - that the little island of Saints Pierre et Miquelon has never ever - not once - not even for a day - had an independence movement.
They are within swimming distance of Canada and still use their cents of a Euro just like you and get free school dinners, books and aren't allowed wear veils or bloody big crosses to school. They're french and it seems unmoved to shake the apple cart. Now look at their curious little flag again. Isn't this the first time you've seen the basque flag (which I've done my best to teach you all to recognise) next to a Blue Peter badge? .......I'm sure it is.......really I'm sure it is.
Let's talk about why and how the Breton and Norman flags got into the cod island another day, or how the cod island escaped the Quebecois independence movement or most strangely considering its flag - a tradition of politics which is kept close to armed struggle by foolish if not well intentioned judicial trickery.

As I said - it all has a worth. I'm very aware of it. That's why I'm doing a collection of a few billion euros or dollars for basque people. Obviously it will only be resting in my account & I'm not being hoodwinked into giving it to violent people. I'm a pirate. We can look after our stuff. But we're a bit rogue-ish at times, sure if you offered me loads of dosh - I'd get St Pierre et Miquelon independent from Paris this side of 2016. But you'll be on a waiting list. Don't push.

by Rossylon Thu Mar 29, 2007 17:30

The general election in Quebec was celebrated on March 26th & the results may be read here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_general_election,_2007

Saint Pierre et Miquelon is one of those little dots on your world map which most probably you've never noticed much. It is a small island which is an integral part of France & within boating distance (or swimming if you're covered in butter) of the coast of Canada. It is in some ways a reminder of the symbolic and strategic balances which not only maintain the imperialist dominations but also contain them. It's a lovely little flag as flags go which tells you about other far further historical stuff. You probably recognise the Basque flag which forms part of it, some of you might recognise the Breton flag too. It reminds us of the lost centuries before (or between) imperial title deeds when simple men went to fish cod where it was plentiful. Those simple men would be so shocked to know cod has almost been extinguished.

Flags and strategic balances can take up all your political life, fill hours of your telly, spend all your budgets and keep your military scouring the science departments of our best universities for employees to engage in designing new technologies. Yes. Flags & strategic balance can do that.
But Flags and strategic balances don't put milk in babes' mouths or cod in the sea. & without cod in the sea you will not have a little fishie on your dishie ever again.

Of the long list of "nations without enough state for many of their flag bearers" - Catalonia is currently dealing with referendum suggestions, Kurdistan is not - & by far the most important cough cough is that which the Scottish people desire. I sincerely hope the Scottish get something more historic this decade on redressing historical wrongs than just an Andrews agreement. Sure 'tis their rite. Fair play! Let the scotties in now! As for the Quebecois - well - - - they've never given up. If that is due to the french influence or the tenacity of the peoples who knew cod but flew no standard on their teepees or the 40% Irish roots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Quebecer ) who knows??? yes indeed : who might say?

the curious standard of Saint Pierre et Miquelon.

by eros & lesbos Wed Jan 25, 2006 15:41

2 takes on the feasibilty of such a move:-
from those who campaigned for Canada to become the 3rd state globally with such rights-
http://www.samesexmarriage.ca/advocacy/red240106.htm
and from their southern neighbours who think though a priority, the rethink won't happen soon.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/01/25/MNG95GSHVU1.DTL

by R. Isible Tue Jan 24, 2006 17:07

the Bush/torture apologist and BBC talking head Michael Ignatieff was unfortunately elected to the Epioptoke/Lakeshore riding for the Liberals. This election has mostly been about a voter reaction against the highly corrupt liberals and has seen the sort-of-leftish NDP make gains.

It is a bummer about Ignatieff getting elected though. He faced stiff opposition from the local community as a "parachutist" imported after a 27 year absence from Canada by the liberals. A locally supported candidate was denied entry to the ballot by the Liberals who locked the doors of the party office so that the nominations couldn't be delivered. An appeal was won on technical grounds by Ignatieff. During the furore in the press following this he parroted Bush's notorious "Bring it on!" phrase in a disconcerting echo of his parroting of the justifications of bombing for democracy and torturing for peace.