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The Saker
A bird's eye view of the vineyard

offsite link Alternative Copy of thesaker.is site is available Thu May 25, 2023 14:38 | Ice-Saker-V6bKu3nz
Alternative site: https://thesaker.si/saker-a... Site was created using the downloads provided Regards Herb

offsite link The Saker blog is now frozen Tue Feb 28, 2023 23:55 | The Saker
Dear friends As I have previously announced, we are now “freezing” the blog.  We are also making archives of the blog available for free download in various formats (see below). 

offsite link What do you make of the Russia and China Partnership? Tue Feb 28, 2023 16:26 | The Saker
by Mr. Allen for the Saker blog Over the last few years, we hear leaders from both Russia and China pronouncing that they have formed a relationship where there are

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offsite link The stage is set for Hybrid World War III Mon Feb 27, 2023 15:50 | The Saker
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Lockdown Skeptics

The Daily Sceptic

offsite link Why Were We Edited Out of Channel 5?s Lucy Letby Documentary? Tue Aug 06, 2024 07:00 | Dr Norman Fenton
Prof Norman Fenton and Dr Scott McLachlan were edited out of Channel 5's Lucy Letby documentary on Sunday night. Their crime? Expressing forbidden views online. It shows how pernicious cancel culture has become, says Dr Fenton.
The post Why Were We Edited Out of Channel 5?s Lucy Letby Documentary? appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link News Round-Up Tue Aug 06, 2024 01:13 | Richard Eldred
A summary of the most interesting stories in the past 24 hours that challenge the prevailing orthodoxy about the ?climate emergency?, public health ?crises? and the supposed moral defects of Western civilisation.
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offsite link Miliband to Relax Planning Laws to Speed Up Building Solar and Wind Farms Mon Aug 05, 2024 19:30 | Will Jones
Ed Miliband is to relax planning laws to make it easier and cheaper for developers to build onshore wind turbines and solar farms. Ah yes, the 'green' movement that destroys the countryside.
The post Miliband to Relax Planning Laws to Speed Up Building Solar and Wind Farms appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link Met Police Boss Sir Mark Rowley Grabs Microphone and Throws it On Ground When Grilled About ?Two-Tie... Mon Aug 05, 2024 18:17 | Will Jones
A visibly angry Met Police boss Sir Mark Rowley grabbed a reporter's microphone and chucked it on the ground this morning when he was grilled about "two-tier policing". Erm, isn't that criminal damage?
The post Met Police Boss Sir Mark Rowley Grabs Microphone and Throws it On Ground When Grilled About “Two-Tier Policing” appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

offsite link Scientist Who Called Neighbour a ?Spanish Whore? Cautioned by Police for Hate Crime and Struck Off Mon Aug 05, 2024 15:45 | Will Jones
A biomedical scientist who called her Portuguese neighbour a "Spanish whore" during a row over a fire alarm was cautioned by police for a hate crime and struck off. No wonder the cops have no time to solve burglaries.
The post Scientist Who Called Neighbour a “Spanish Whore” Cautioned by Police for Hate Crime and Struck Off appeared first on The Daily Sceptic.

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Voltaire Network
Voltaire, international edition

offsite link Netanyahu soon to appear before the US Congress? It will be decisive for the suc... Thu Jul 04, 2024 04:44 | en

offsite link Voltaire, International Newsletter N°93 Fri Jun 28, 2024 14:49 | en

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offsite link Will Israel provoke a cataclysm?, by Thierry Meyssan Tue Jun 25, 2024 06:59 | en

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The struggle for safe, legal abortion on demand continues

category national | rights, freedoms and repression | news report author Thursday January 12, 2006 13:15author by Aileen O'Carroll - WSM - Workers Solidarity Report this post to the editors

Interview with BODY

Official Ireland pretends that abortion doesn't exist, the estimated 100,000 women who have travelled abroad to terminate pregnancies since the 1983 amendment to the Constitution know different. Workers Solidarity spoke to Niav Keating from the new pro-choice youth group.

What is BODY?

BODY stands for Bold Open Decisive Youth. We are a diverse group of young pro-choice activists that are campaigning for safe and legal abortion services. We formed in October 2005, as a result of the launch of the Irish Family Planning Association's 'Safe and Legal' campaign. Our main objective is to push the Irish government to hold a pro-choice referendum. We are also interested in campaigning for free access to reproductive health care and contraception.

Why is the campaign for abortion rights important to you?

For me, abortion is a women's health issue. It is not a legal, moral or ethical issue. As an anarchist and a feminist, I strongly support a woman's right to choose. It's a woman's choice to decide whether or not to continue with her pregnancy. I believe all women who choose to terminate should be able to access free, safe and legal abortion services within Ireland. Currently, seventeen women are forced to leave Ireland every day to avail of abortion services outside the State. This is totally unacceptable.

There have been lots of campaigns for abortion rights in the last twenty years. We still don't have abortion in Ireland and it is an issue that burns people out. Why do you think BODY will be more effective than the other campaigns?

Although we still don't have access to abortion services in Ireland, in the last twenty years activists have campaigned for and gained the right to information and the right to travel. I think BODY could be more effective than past campaigns. Our first action outside the Dail in December 2005 received a very positive response. Activists from Grassroots Dissent, Alliance For Choice, Labour Youth and the Socialist Party participated including Joe Higgins TD. It also gathered a lot of interest from the media in terms of newspaper articles in the Irish Times and radio stations nationwide conducted interviews with activists from BODY.

How can people get involved in the BODY campaign?

For more information or to get involved with BODY e-mail choice_ireland@hotmail.com or contact Louise 086 329 3741. Currently we are active in Dublin but we hope to form other groups based in Cork and in Galway..

If you are in a crisis pregnancy situation and would like information about all the options available to you - parenting, fostering, adoption, and abortion contact the IFPA on 1850 49 50 51 or visit the website: http://www.ifpa.ie

Related Link: http://struggle.ws/wsm/abortion.html
author by Emilypublication date Fri Apr 14, 2006 21:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Heres some interesting news. It gives us a stick to use against the Anti Woman lobby, maybe someone in uCD would print it off and put it on the office doors of certain FF UCDSU officers.

"Foetuses 'cannot experience pain'

The debate about whether foetuses feel pain is long-running
Foetuses cannot feel pain because it requires mental development that only occurs outside the womb, says a report in the British Medical Journal. Dr Stuart Derbyshire, of the University of Birmingham, said a baby's actions and relationships with carers enabled it to process the subjectivity of pain. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4905892.stm

author by redjadepublication date Sun Apr 02, 2006 21:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

'Let's discuss all future threads on a strictly reality based premise.'

ok, it was a cheap shot analogy, but is it? The pope seems to like the idea of protecting Blastocysts, and reaffirmed this just recently...

[Pope] Benedict specified in February that even an embryo in its earliest stages -- when it is just a few cells -- is as much a human life as an older being.

"We must say strongly that human beings can never be sacrificed to the successes of science and technology," Benedict said

http://torontosun.com/News/World/2006/04/02/1516449-sun....html

'reality based' is a nice idea, in theory

author by John O'Driscollpublication date Wed Mar 08, 2006 00:01author email jodprc at gmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

On the Adolf Hitler mental onanism, there's a whole bunch of other postulations that make assassination redundant, assuming a few basic quantum mechanical prinicples.

1. The observed system inevitably interacts with the observer. - Me going back in time and observing Adolf as a child would have some effect on his own deterministic "time's arrow" e.g. it might a) prevent him going home at quite the same time as he otherwise would so that b) his father Otto Schickelgruber might not force him to perform fellatio and/or might not beat him that particular day (Adolf's father was a sexual and physical child abuser of the lowest order), thus perhaps ever-so-slightly changing young Adolf's incipient psychopathology and perhaps with the result that he grows up to be a Catholic saint.

2. You cannot determine the exact position of a particle without forever sacrificing the ability to predict its momentum and direction. - As I - the hypothetical time traveller - would know a postiori what his "future history" would be, it would be impossible to go back in time and identify the young Hitler/Schickelgruber without utterly changing his "future history" as a result.

I could go on but there's another bottle of vino to be cracked and it's already late.

Dear Redjade, I admire your campaign against the Whoreport et al. Let's discuss all future threads on a strictly reality based premise.

Otherwise your sanity may be in danger of quantum entanglement with my insanity.

You have been warned.

kind regards

John

author by John O'Driscollpublication date Tue Mar 07, 2006 23:39author email jodprc at gmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

The situation Firedoglake posits would also assume perfect knowledge of each and every factor, Redjade. In such a situation, I'd either a) be able to prevent the fire breaking out or b) calculate the optimal path towards rescuing both.

Better to say "Would you sacrifice your life to rescue a two year old" (Yes) or "Would you sacrifice your life to rescue a petrie of blastocysts" (Doubt it)

The two year old is concious of itself, on a certain level, being alive. The blastocysts, lacking a developed CNS for a start, are not.

They're all human though. IMO acourse.

I hate these thought experiments. Like, "If you could go back in time and assassinate Adolf Hitler as a child, would you do so?" (No. We'd have a damn sight more trouble containing Joe Stalin for a start. Assuming perfect knowledge again acourse.)

It's kinda like one of those questions you asked yourself (maybe) or got asked, as a kid:
"Who would you rather die, mammy or daddy"

To which the only answer would be "I'd rather die first myself before choosing". Least that's the answer I always gave my kid bro' when he'd ask. And vice versa of course.

The problem with thought experiments is that they dismiss the unfortunate reality. And they assume perfect knowledge.

Which we ain't yet got far as I know.

Kind regards ,Redjade

John

author by redjadepublication date Tue Mar 07, 2006 00:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

firedoglake asks:

'...If a fire breaks out in a fertility clinic and you can only save a petri dish with five blastulae
or a two-year old child, which do you save?'

http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2006_03_05_firedoglake_...24702

author by John O'Driscollpublication date Mon Mar 06, 2006 23:22author email jodprc at gmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

"After all, this is murder, right?" - No it is not. "Murder" is a legal concept; defined inter alia as "to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice or willfully, deliberately, and unlawfully" (source: Miriam Webster Dictionary). Abortion meets all of the above criteria with the exception of "unlawfully".

Abortion is therefore not murder per se.

It is in all other respects the "kill(ing) (of) (a human being)...with premeditated malice or wilfully, deliberately".

But it is not "murder".

author by sylviapublication date Mon Mar 06, 2006 23:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Back to the point of this news story, which was, before it decended into the usual boring rant about right to chose/we hate Catholics, about the establishment of BODY.

Just seven people, according to the Irish Times, turned up to their first protest launching their organisation. That's pretty representative of the proportion of Irish people who think abortion should be available on demand for whatever reason at all. Pathetic.

Kids are the best thing on earth, only sad losers would actively support a right to kill them. Women deserve better than abortion. It just makes a lot of money for some very sick people.

author by pat cpublication date Thu Jan 19, 2006 17:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

you are using jesuitic logic (double effect). in the cases you mention, abortions are taking place. you and the honourable professors just prefer to say it is not abortion.

dinny obviously wants to see the mother die. he seems to be ignorant (unlike paddy) of the fact that fetus/embryo will also perish if the mother is left untreated.

author by Noel Hoganpublication date Thu Jan 19, 2006 15:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thanks for replying.

Would you not agree that since Irish rates are broadly in line with UK rates, with the exception of late abortions which are higher in Irish women, that the current system has failed?

author by joepublication date Thu Jan 19, 2006 13:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

When something is morally wrong it has to be opposed. The fact that women travel to England for abortions doesnt make abortion right, nor does it mean we should accept abortion in this country. We can only attempt to dicourage people froming having an abortion, but we cannot stop them if they wish to go abroad.
When we protested about the Iraq war, I'd say few people expected the US to actually care what we said, but we had to make a stand on what was a moral issue. The same goes for the issue of abortion: we can't force people to do one thing or the other, we can only give the moral point of view and hope they listen.

author by Noel Hoganpublication date Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

To repeat they were:

Given that abortion is just a hop, skip and cheap flight to the UK away, what does the current restrictive regime accomplish?

Given that Irish abortion rates are broadly in line with the UKs at present, how does the current system discourage women from seeking abortions?

And also:

Why don't you have a presence at the airports, since all women have to go through there to travel to the UK for an abortion, rather than O'Connell street/College Green where you'll only catch a small percentage of them?

author by Xavierpublication date Wed Jan 18, 2006 13:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Abortion is not an isolated issue. Abortion is , at least partly, a product of our society. We need to look at what has occured before the woman gets pregnant. An example would be the number of teeenagers who engage in sexual activity while under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs. We need to look at the promotion of sexual permissiveness through the legalisation of pornography. We need to look at a citizens responsibility to the society they live in. We need to look at the notion that for women to be "equal" they must adopt the permissive attitudes of men. Freedom of choice? freedom of choice must be there from the beginning. If young people are socially pressurised into sexual activity, where is the choice there? If people are sexually active "under the influence" where is the choice?

It is indeed easy to come out with the usual arguments for or against. Abortion is merely the end point in a process, in order to properly address the issue we need to look at all issues leading up to that point. The abortion debate needs to look at sexual values and the responsibility of the individual not to engage in activity which will result in the need for abortion. It is also worth noting that where abortion does not take place a child is born who is then a burden on the state. An analysis of the social backgrounds of young offenders would be interesting, what percentage come from single parent families. There seems little point in demanding a ban on abortion simply to keep a child alive to grow up in deprivation and ultimately to end their lives incarcarated or drug addicted.

Finally, there is the question of fathers rights. If it is a case that where a woman decides to go through pregnancy and give birth that she can then claim economic supports from the father then surely the father should have some input into the decisions. After all, although the child grows in the woman, it only does so because of the implantation of the fathers cells. Does this not give the father a right to input? are there not two parents for every child? Regardless of what political beliefs a person holds, surely it must be seen as socially irresponsibile to bring unwanted children into the world, and more to the point to force others to do so.

Simple solutions based on personal morality,on way or the other, are simply not good enough.

author by Dinny Faheypublication date Tue Jan 17, 2006 22:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Pat, what kind of a mother would put her own survival before the survival of her child?

I might be a man, but I still wouldn't hesitate to put the survival of my child before my own.

It's nothing to do with "choice", "women's health", "ectopic pregnancy problem" and the hard-case rape incident. It's to do with immoral, materialistic people seeking easy ways to get rid of something which might interfere with their social lives, or their pursuit of money or power.

Check the real stories behind abortion. You will find that the majority of women who abort their child are NOT ill, HAVEN'T been raped and are NOT in danger of dying. They've simply fallen pregnant, and can't put up with the consequences.

author by Paddy savage - consistent life ethic(inc animals)publication date Tue Jan 17, 2006 18:45author email achorusline19 at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

I do believe in sexual freedom,i also believe in responsibility,im all for preventative contraception,and if it fails,well then im against abortion and once again for responsibility....I temporarily rest my case.xx

author by Paddy savage - consistent life ethic(inc animals)publication date Tue Jan 17, 2006 18:39author email achorusline19 at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

First of all,good for you girl,that you can fuck away because of your age,i might not even reach that age,and no im not dying,lol,but I probably would still be messing about at that age too,i just cant imagine what id be wearing and look like,im sure youll tell me marie that ill have to cope,lol.I have no time for the Vatican,destroy it as jesus would and turn it into a deluxe huge homesless shelter,im an anarchoCatholic,ive given all the answers and your bringing up my sexuality and my mystical faith,in dont care what the pope says,i really dont,i dont believe in tyrannical fiures,religious,political or otherwise,please look up liberation theology on wikepedia,also Oscar Romero.I gave all the opinions and quotes of well respected Irish medics,and some how that makes me very "Roman" Catholic,i really dont know what else to say sister,their the facts,their the truth from professors,some of whom are even pro "choice",so call me what you will,and by the way Jesus never mentioned Homosexuality, and as for sodom and gomorrah,that had to do with hospitality,and treating foreign people in your land as good as you treat the natives,
With love and hope sister maire.xx

Also check out these sites,if you like
www.feministsforlife.com
www.plagal.org
www.liberalslikechrist.org
www.jesusradicals.com

The latter two websites will give you the rundown on progressive Christianity

Related Link: http://www.catholicanarchy.org
author by Mairepublication date Tue Jan 17, 2006 17:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Paddy, it's not that you sparked some chord with me. I'm over 60 and have heard every one of the arguments for and against abortion. None of them rattles me anymore. Happily for me, I am no longer fertile so I can fuck away happily and not have to worry about getting pregnant.

I did get the answer you had been avoiding from you though - you don't believe in sexual freedom. And from your replies to Pat C. it's clear that you adopt a very Catholic view of abortion i.e. it's okay as long as it's "double effect". Fair enough. You have a right to your conscientiously held views. But I have a right to mine and you have no right to impose your particular theological views on anyone else. You seem to have got over the Catholic Church's views on homosexuality. Maybe you would now have a think about how the Church has got your mind on the abortion question still.

To help, you might want to read this pamphlet on abortion which I have found very helpful. http://www.swp.ie/html/Abortion%20pamphlet.htm

author by Paddy Savage - Consistent life ethic(inc animals)publication date Tue Jan 17, 2006 17:25author email achorusline19 at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

Ectopic pregnancy occurs when the recently concieved unborn baby implants somewhere other than the womb.The condition is on compatible with the continued survival of the unborn baby,and unfortunately and sadly the baby is usually dead by the time the condition is recognised.The removal of an ectopic pregnancy ISNT an abortion,as the intent is not to kill the baby,the correct term for a procedure such as this is a salpingectomy.

Pre-eclamptic Toxemia is a disease/condition which happens in some pregnancies and is caused by a rise in blood pressure which can result in seizures.The condition is now completely manageable.It occurs usually in the second half of the pregnancy and when severe an early delivery will ALWAYS be induced which will save the Life of the Mother(of the utmost importance,of course)and hopefully,that of her child.

FACT: A doctor that with-holds any nessecary tratment for a pregnant woman in danger during pregnancy will be struck off the medical register.

Uterine Cancer(rare) when it occurs in pregnancy it is may be neccesary to remove the cancerous womb,this hysterectomy is not and has never been considered an abortion under irish law or medicinal practices,also theirs no evidence that the termination of a pregnancy makes cancer any better,also some women wish to hold off treatment until later in pregnancy where it is far less likely that the child will be adversely affected.

"As obstetricians and gynacologists,we affirm that their is no mediacal circumstances justifying direct abortion,that is circumnstances in which the life of the mother may only be saved by directly terminating the life of her unborn child".

Eamonn o dwyer,Prof of Obstetrics& Gynaecology,UCG
David jenkins,Prof of Obstetrics& Gynaecology,UCC
Kieran o driscoll,Prof of Obstetrics& Gynaecology,UCD
Julia Vaughan,Consultant Obstetrician& Gynaecologist.

Incest: There are many people who werent murdered by abortionists that were concieved due to the harrowing ordeal of Incest and werent born disabled,are disabled people any less human than us?And this is coming from someone with a minor disability, its a sick world,one im trying to better,i just dont think that murder or voilence to any living person solves anything,it just creates more bitterness and hurt,and as far as rape goes,abortion does not unrape a person,and ive afriend who worked on the phonelines to those poor girls/women/people talking to them in the rape crisis centre,and shes gay and pro life and she said in afterwards counselling that a vast majority of the rape victims she spoke to regretted their abortions,the volunteer was pro choice before working their.

We can have a Beatific Aquarian Utopia in our age,or maybe not in our age,but lets work together for future generations so as our children(who werent aborted) can enjoy that glorious day,"blesased are those who dream,for some of their dreams shall come true". IM a double aquarius,lol,ive also got a sense of humour regarding the triviality and madness of life. Love and Life Homo Paddy.xx

author by pat cpublication date Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

what about ectopic pregnancies, what about when the mother is undergoing chemo or radotheraphy, what about when the mother has cervical cancer? what about rape & incest?


what is your position on abortion in those circumstances?

author by Paddy Savage - Consistent life ethic(inc animals)publication date Mon Jan 16, 2006 21:50author email achorusline19 at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

I suppose fertilisation?? Or not fall for bearded auld-fellascalling themselves comrades being sexually free,concieving a child and then aborting it for feminism,or maybe insist in advance that anyone you sleep with has got the snip,areyou also suggesting that i tell a way that homos shouldnt have sex until their sure they havent got a back-up cure for AIDS or hepatitis,its always a risk,one that people take,and people should bear the responsibilty of risque sexual endevaours in this day and age,i wouldnt even have full on sex for fear of sexually transmitted diseaes,thats just me,and im open enough to say that,i didnt make it that women bear children,why are you angry at me,i dont have all the answers,just some directions,it boils down to this,abortion is the intentional ending of a life,regardless of how people are going to have risk free sex,its not possible,not at this stage anyway,i think ive hit a nerve with the questions ive asked regarding allowance of abortions due to certain factors,and youve exploded,realising the ugly truth,dont reply if you dont want to,face up to responsibility,and if you support abortion i recommend you support capital punishment and war also,at least you would be consistent in your ethics and culture of death,abortions,wars,executions and big macs, YA BASTA= ENOUGH.xx hate e-mail welcomed xx

author by Mairepublication date Mon Jan 16, 2006 18:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Paddy,

You did not answer the question about a woman's right to a sex life - because abortion is a direct product of a sex life. The reason that women have been able to have SOME sexual freedom in the last quarter century is because of the Pill backed up by abortion. VERY few abortions take place after 20 weeks and there are NO instances of a foetus surviving before then. I have issues myself about abortion for reasons of disability but I reckon that as long as society refuses to provide a decent education etc for people with disabilities, then parents are going to be tempted to abort them. The solution to this is TO CAMPAIGN FOR BETTER RIGHTS FOR DISABLED PEOPLE, not to stop women getting abortions.

No one EVER said that potential girls are not aborted, just as potential girls and boys don't get to see the light of day because of the pill, condoms etc. This all comes down to sex and until people recognise that, we are not going to be able to have a coherent debate on abortion.

I will not respond to another of your postings until you tell me how a woman can have an active sex life without knowing abortion is there as a back-up if contraception fails.

author by Paddy Savage - Consistent life ethic(inc animals)publication date Mon Jan 16, 2006 17:54author email achorusline19 at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

Im well aware of the history of nazism and of those whom they discriminated against,and its a FACT,that only non aryan women were permitted and often forced to have abortions,directly linked to the eugenics movement which i mentioned in an earlier post,the quest for a perfect race,so do you support,or should i say does BODY support abortion up to birth,theyve been asked many times and have not answered,do you or they support abortion because of genetic "defect",otherwise known as disability,i know a girl who had a nervous breakdown after she had worked as an assistant in an abortion mill,where they were performing sex selection abortions and abortions due to downs sydrome or even cleft palates,she ahd told of how after hysterotomy abortions when the child would be left to die in a petri dish,how it would squeal and shudder and cry for a few moments,believe me or not,im obviously not going to give the girls phone number or name out so she'll be back on the prozac and diazepam,its not propaganda.Also,my homosexuality is genetic,with the advance in eugenics and ultra modern prenatal screening,when its disclosed that indeed the homo gene has been found,will you support the "right" to abortion on grounds that the unborn child is pre disposed to be homosexual??And if you say homosexuality isnt genetic,is it hormonal,an "imbalance" and therefore a "disease",id like that question in particular answered by the one girl i know to be a lesbian in the BODY group,also who said the abortion pics where strictly from youth defence??Im not a member,in no way am i!!,human rights start when human life begins,at fertilization,no killing period!!!And as i oppose war and capital punishment and animal exploitation,i therfore oppose abortion,due to moral conscience and common sense,so as i see all the latter as violation of human(and animal rights) i will therefore impose my common sense and morals on those who justify any of the afromentioned,in a non voilent way of course,and by the way,isnt it true that all fetouses(unborn children) are female in the early stages of pregnancy,which you state is the period in which the majority of abortions are performed(by the state),thats very feminist!!??? And by the way,who actually pushes these 17 women forcefully onto a boat from dublin a day to obtain abortions in the U.K,and as regards the title of this comment,i know about the kitchen,children and church policy of the nazi regime for german women,very facist and reactionary,just like abortion proponents,in my opinion,and by the way,just to let everyone know,i wasnt educated in the Institute of education on Leeson street,i come from the inner city,one of the few working class queer anarchists i know(actually the only one),not that it matters or makes me special,check out the link of PLAGAL(pro life alliance of gays and lesbians) and make what yous will of it,love and life,homo paddy.xxx P.S. just as a matter of curiosity,how many people on this thread are from working class areas??

author by Noel Hogan - Labourpublication date Mon Jan 16, 2006 16:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Given that abortion is just a hop, skip and cheap flight to the UK away, what does the current restrictive regime accomplish?

Given that Irish abortion rates are broadly in line with the UKs at present, how does the current system discourage women from seeking abortions?

author by Miarepublication date Mon Jan 16, 2006 16:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Even for the best and most efficient contraceptor in the world, it can be very easy for some women to get pregnant - there are those who say a man just has to look at them for them to end up pregnant. Now, assuming a sexually active life that begins at 17 and continues for the rest of her life, that leaves most women with about 35 years when every (hetero)sexual act leaves her with a chance of becoming pregnant. The pill - the most effective form of contraception - has a 2% failure rate (quite apart from interaction with anti-biotics etc that can increase the failure rate). So, assuming sex only twice a week that's over 100 times a year....few women will escape without 3 or 4 pregnancies and while some will be welcomed and produce beautiful, love bundles, the reality is sometimes a woman will fall pregnant when she just cannot consider continuing the pregnancy. Maybe her other children are in crisis for some reason. Maybe she is homeless or has just got a new job, or the chance to do something exciting, or maybe she ill herself or simply wrecked OR JUST DOES NOT WANT A CHILD AT THIS POINT IN HER LIFE.

That's why abortion is not just a question of hardhearted women ignoring the call of nature. Unwanted pregnancies happen in the real world and sometimes there''s little choice but to abort.

By the way, look at some photos of abortions? Most of the photos that Youth Defence etc carry about do not represent the reality of abortion. 90% of abortions are carried out before 12 weeks of pregnancy when there is very little - besides blood - to see. The embryo/foetus is only 3-4 cms long and doctors have to put what they take out of the womb into a sieve to make sure that it includes the embryo. For centuries, women have been jumping off tables, lifting heavy weights, taking very hot baths and various herbal drinks to "bring on a late period" - otherwise known as an early abortion. It did not take Marie Stopes to tell them they could!! Go and look at the Brehon Law and you'll see how common - and Irish - a custom abortion is.

And don't forget, while we're talking about Nazis, the Nazis OUTLAWED abortion as part of their Kirche, Kuche, Kinder policies. This coincided with their oppression of gays...just did not like any sex that does not lead to Kinder.

author by Paddy Savage - Consistent life ethic(inc animals)publication date Mon Jan 16, 2006 15:31author email achorusline19 at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

Im well aware that their is no 100% guaranteed form of contraception,apart from abstinence,which i wouldnt advocate for anyone unless they chose it,me being queer,i will never be the cause in any way of killing an unborn child,but honestly,when you look at the amount of abortions each year,you would wonder if anyone has heard of condoms or the pill,and dont even try to tell me that all abortions are the result of failed preventative contraception,such as condoms and the pill,and as for men not being allowed have a say in the whole abortion debate,well that smacks of facism,and sexism,fuck gender,were all human,both sexes compliment each other,and arent,or shouldnt be in direct conflict/Women dont have to have babies,and im sorry if you feel self disgust at the fact that mother nature has made it so that females are the givers of new life,to the extent of carrying the child and giving birth,and you see it so unfair that men merely have to ejaculate to create a child,not true,most kids have loving fathers as well as mothers,some dont,we must work to change any injustices or socio-economic factors that might lead someone to have an abortion,or consider it,just look at the photos of abortions,and you say thats ethical,and a bunch of cells?I mean come on,wake up,see the culture of death we live in,and the contribution of meat consumption to 3rd world hunger,and its not a.l.f. propaganda,just look it up,the facts are their,as for the a.l.f.,they have to be some of the most misanthropic people i have ever met,and a lot of the are self professed members of V.H.E.O.(voluntary human extinction organisation)if they hate people and themselves so much,why havent they killed themselves already to contribute to population control,which they so fervently propose,and i make it clear that not all members are misanthropists,and also not all members of youth defence are homo-hating conservative Catholics,theirs good and bad elements in all movements,but of course the fanatical "hardline" fringe elements are the only groups ever to get media attention in the propoganda war that exists on both sides,people realise that what you are saying and showing people is true,and they agree,but are cowards to come out and support the unborn and animals,and thus the label of extremist and fanatic is branded right on your forehead,whether your anti abortion,vegan animal lib,Catholic(even liberation theology anarchist elements) or militant feminist or militant queer rights activists,we must all join together and respect the dignity of every living being,as is so far possible,would anyone agree?Not that im looking for recognition or validation,less death and voilence,more life and love,homo Paddy..XX

Related Link: http://www.plagal.org
author by Gerropublication date Mon Jan 16, 2006 14:18author email cgmurphy at gofree dot indigo dot ieauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hmmmm......so a baby apparently is purely a useless appendage to a womans body. No life, rights or feelings within itself. You need to get out and get a broader perspective rather that the narrow feminazi one.

One of the reasons why the West in broader terms is suffering from de-population and consequent affects on lack of pension provision, workforce reduction has been a functions of these selfish social sabateurs who kill babies for their own selfish ends.

If you ever had a loving, caring and beautiful child you would know what I was talking about.

.....think about it,


Gerro

author by pat cpublication date Mon Jan 16, 2006 13:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

pleas note that "lifers" was in inverted commas. this obviously went over your head. the "lifers" dont care if Women die.

author by Noel Hoganpublication date Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If all the pro-lifers here really wanted to do something for "the unborn" they should head directly to Dublin Airport and set up a stall in Departures to discourage women who are about to board the plane to London. Or perhaps even run out on the runway to stop planes taking off for the UK.

After all, this is murder, right? Extreme measures to prevent it happening are justified. So quit wasting time on Indymedia and do something quick!

Unless of course, you don't really believe abortion to be murder after all?

author by Dinny Faheypublication date Sun Jan 15, 2006 21:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"and theres a strong campaign against the "lifers". na passeran!"

A no-brainer statement. If you are battling against the "lifers", then are you suggesting that you favour a culture of death? In that case, you and your ilk might do us all a favour and do a lemmings job.

author by pat cpublication date Sun Jan 15, 2006 20:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Abortion is murder, and this is being recognized all across the world."

the Hawaii Supreme Court agree that a fetus is not a person:

"The high court ruled that the homicide prosecution of Tayshea Aiwohi did not fall under state law because her unborn child was not a "person" when she smoked the drug."

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051130/NEWS20/511300342/1001/NEWS


"In Britain they are reconsidering the permitted time period, "

and theres a strong campaign against the "lifers". na passeran!

"and in the USA a pro-life is judge is likely to be appointed, leading to the overturn of Roe v. Wade. "

he has yet to be appointed but the answers hes giving so far in the confirmation hearings are disturbing the "lifers".

"There is no medical or legal justification for murder, and abortion is no different. "

what about ectopic pregnancies, what about when the mother is undergoing chemo or radotheraphy, what about when the mother has womb cancer? what about rape & incest?

author by Paul C.publication date Sun Jan 15, 2006 18:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Abortion is murder, and this is being recognized all across the world. In Britain they are reconsidering the permitted time period, and in the USA a pro-life is judge is likely to be appointed, leading to the overturn of Roe v. Wade. There is no medical or legal justification for murder, and abortion is no different.

“BODY”, by there tiny numbers and ineffective campaign, demonstrates that Irish people will never cave into the lies peddled by pro-abortionists.

Defend civil liberties and their extension to the most defenceless in society, defend the right to life.

author by Mairepublication date Sun Jan 15, 2006 17:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

No sex for women - unless they are willing to have a child out of it [since there is no 100% effective contraception]

author by Paddy Savage - Consistent life ethic(inc animals)publication date Sun Jan 15, 2006 17:15author email achorusline19 at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

The constant referral of the unborn to "a bunch of cells",or " a glob of tissue" is becoming monotamous,,their is a direct link to the same bunch of pro war murderous idiots who use euphemisms such as "collateral damage","surgical strikes" and "taken out" to justify the killing and butchering of people by air raids(dropping bombs on people) and ground assaults(tanks shooting shells and murdering bastard soldiers firing guns ) at others!!Just look a the pictures of war casualties and in particular infants,and then look at the result of abortions,which proponents of infanticide will say arent real or are 3rd trimester abortions,which they will also say do not take place!!?? Ernst Rudin,a prominent figure and member in the Nazi party wrote an article entitled "eugenic sterilization,an urgent need" in the 1933 April edition of "Birth control review",an awful hate filled "magazine" published by the founder of Planned Parenthood Margaret Sanger,need i go on,!!?????????

author by pat cpublication date Sat Jan 14, 2006 20:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Fair enough Pat C - but would you talk about the catholic church that way, for example, if Ian Paisley was having a go at it? "

if paisley was having a go at individual catholics then i would defend them. if paisley was ranting against the catholic church as an establishment then i would be disinterested. just as if extreme catholics were having a go at individual protestants i would defend the protestants.

the difference with islam is that its a religion where it is widely accepted that "adulterous " women & gays shopuld be stoned to death. yes this is part of mainstream islam. even on the lunatic fringe of the catholic church you would find few enough people who would hold to this. even very few of the fundamentalist protestants believe this.

i am not an islamophobe i just see it as a reactionary religion, worse than christianity. if the catholic church started insisting that women wear hijabs i doubt if trots would be out supporting them.

as an anti fascist i oppose racism and will fight anyone (other than atheist "muslims") who attack mosques. the same goes for racist attacks on muslims.

but if women or gays decide to attack a reactionary imam or priest or minister or rabbi, then more power to them.

author by Seamuspublication date Sat Jan 14, 2006 19:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

When I saw the thread on the home page I couldnt resist clicking on it, just to see how many fanatical catholics would be out with the usual old tripe. And there they were, murder, children, morals blah blah blah. Funny that most of the eejits coming out with this rubbish were men.

There should be a referendum to take the whole issue out of the consititution for a start, plus to allow termination of potential life (12 weeks max before the usual eejits start the extrapolation to 28weeks\unlimited etc), for all the slow learner catholics, thats all a few week old foetus is, a near microscopic clump of cells. Women should be the only ones allowed vote on this issue as it affects them alone.

You dont have to agree with abortion, but dont dare deny women their right over their reproductive systems, its all about choice, when will these catholics\ facists ever get the message?

Seamus O R

author by Noel Hogan - Labourpublication date Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:15author email noelhogan at hotmail dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well up to a point anyhow - any woman who wants an abortion, provided she is under 24 or whatever weeks can go to the UK and get one. The fact that there is ZERO moral unrest about this issue shows that the electorate aren't as nearly fired up about the subject as you'd like.

If they were there'd be constant protests at the airports trying to discourage women from travelling to the UK for an abortion, Joe Duffy's ear would be burnt off him every day about the issue and politicans would be harangued day and night to do something about it.

Instead, silence. And it's a silence that's telling.

author by Choice elfpublication date Sat Jan 14, 2006 07:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Choice. I have the right to decide to terminate my pregnancy if people choose to see that as child murder thats their problem. What choice have they in the narrow confines of their Totalitarian religious domination. End religious social control and the dictatorship of the "moral philosophers".

We have the assent of the people!

you practice your ethics and I will practice mine.


Oh and by the way, the totalitarian roman religionists ought to be the last ones to lecture anyone on the rights of children given their record.

End Roman Imperialism
Nationalise the church

author by Edward Cahillpublication date Sat Jan 14, 2006 06:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Abortion on demand"... hmmm... the day has obviously arrived when people want to make child murder as simple as ordering a Big Mac.

author by mattpublication date Sat Jan 14, 2006 01:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So from the top...
Obviously many women are going to great lengths to terminate their pregnancies and I don't believe that this is out of some innate homicidal instinct or a hidden capacity for murder. I think this points to a failing on societies part to be open and supportive enough of individuals in times of stress. Parenting is a very daunting prospect...it's something you have to struggle through with no training and no idea if you are doing it right. Hopefully you have some support from family or a partner, a decent income and a real desire to spend the next 18 years of years of your life looking after a child and giving up much of your independence.


As far as it being "one of the great evils of capitalist society"- I doubt that that capitalist society is the only system under which abortion would have been developed...in fact I believe it has existed in various forms long before modern capitalism came along. I think that in any society(bar one with a 100% guaranteed contraceptive devices and 100% consensual sex) there would be those for whom for various reasons terminating a pregnancy woul be a strong option.

I think diverting this kind of discussion with personal attacks and a lack of consideration for other peoples rights and beliefs is pointless. Whether Galloway associates with Muslims or Catholics is irrrelevant.

I would disagree with John that BODY is waste of time...promoting discussion is never a waste of time and if there is one hundred percent certainty of a no decision by the electorate why be afraid of having a referendum-victory is assured for the "pro life" side and wouldn't it be a huge vindication for them. Maybe if we have a very public open referendum where ideas and opinions from both sides are aired and shared without out being derided as murderous or antiwomen. Maybe if as a society we discussed the issue fully we could come to a proper decision on whether abortion should be legalised and under what circumstances, and what systems and provisions we could put in place to better help those who have just become or are pregnant. Because us merely saying no you can't have an abortion now go have your baby and fend for yourself isn't dealing with the issue at all.

As for the moral difference between abortion and infanticide I don't think John is the one to decide that and I don't think morals are a very easy thing to pin down. I think there is a very big difference between taking the morning after pill and smothering your baby- or are these one and the same.
I agree that there should be some limitation, a time period after which it is acknowledged that if born this baby could survive for itself and if you have been willing to carry it for that long then you should see it through.


I do believe that it is a womans body and her choice to make and feel that men should acknowledge this. I find it hard to imagine what pregnancy actually involves on a personal level and as a guy think that it is women who should be debating this issue and deciding on the legality of abortion. They're the ones who know what it involves after all better than any male gynaecologist.
Until I have my own womb (and it's not something I plan on happening any time soon) I'm not going to try and dictate what others should do with theirs.

Finally the abortion issue should not be looked at in isolation as the be all and end all. I think women should have the right to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy regardless of how they became pregnant.
Criminalising abortion has not stopped the demand for it but legalising it will not solve some of the problems which cause women to seek abortions.

author by Mairepublication date Fri Jan 13, 2006 22:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Fair enough Pat C - but would you talk about the catholic church that way, for example, if Ian Paisley was having a go at it? No, us leftwingers have to be aware of the context. Sure, Galloway appeals to the Muslim community - though not sure about whether it's the mullahs, as they often do not agree with involvement in any secular politics. As I understand from my muslim friends, it is only the secular muslim organisations, like MAB, that supported Galloway.

As for the notion raised by some eejit that there is no difference between infanticide and abortion - obviously spoken by a man. How many mothers are there who would lay down their lives for their children and yet have an abortion if faced with an unwanted pregnancy? ANSWER: LOADS! About a half of all women who have abortions in Britain already have children. THEY know full well the difference between abortion and infanticide. The first is about a potential child that can only become a child if the woman continues to give it life. The other is about an actual child who can be looked after by anyone in society.

author by Seán MacStiofán - IRApublication date Fri Jan 13, 2006 22:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There is no difference between infanticide and abortion. It's one of the few "left issues" that trendy "left" students or aged former radicals cling to in order to demonstrate their credentials.
There are many more public figures with sound, socialist politics that are anti-abortion than those who are "pro-choice"
The Irish people do not support abortion on demand. Period.
Only a small minority believe in that, they spend all day on this site.
There is a signficant and misguided minority, however that are prepared to consider abortion in the case of rape/incest.

author by J.publication date Fri Jan 13, 2006 19:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

john you are wasting OUR time with your negativity and foolish comments.You are obviously uninformed, speaking out of ignorance and not taking in any other factors that can apply to a situation requiring a pregnancy . A woman's body is not yours, not the states, not anyone else's but her OWN.

author by pat cpublication date Fri Jan 13, 2006 18:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Something to bring a smile to your face.
;) pat

***************************************
Kansas AG 'Inadvertently' Might Have Sued Himself In Lawsuit To Stop State From Financing Abortions For Medicaid Beneficiaries
Category: Abortion News
Article Date: 13 Jan 2006 - 2am (UK)


Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline (R) "inadvertently" might have sued himself as part of a lawsuit filed in Shawnee County District Court that would force the state to stop financing abortions for Medicaid beneficiaries, according to Nick Badgerow, an attorney representing Gov. Kathleen Sebelius (D), the Topeka Capital-Journal reports (Fry, Topeka Capital-Journal, 1/10). The lawsuit -- filed by Kline in August 2005 -- seeks to define the moment of conception as the beginning of life in order to support the argument that abortion violates an individual's right to life under the state constitution.

*****************************
Full story at link.

Related Link: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=36099#
author by Johnpublication date Fri Jan 13, 2006 18:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You're wasting your time. Even if the government caves into your demand for a pro-choice referendum (most unlikely), the electorate will vote decisively against it. I notice you make no reference to any time limit on abortion or to whether it should be allowed for social as well as medical reasons. I assume therefore you want no restriction at all on the availability of abortion. You believe that any woman should be allowed to have an abortion simply because she wants one and regardless of whether the unborn child is 4 weeks or 34 weeks old. There is zero chance of the Irish electorate voting to allow this. You'd be more worthy of respect if you campaigned to make infanticide legal as well for there is clearly no moral difference between killing a newborn baby and killing an unborn baby a couple of weeks before it is due to be born.

author by pat cpublication date Fri Jan 13, 2006 17:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Yet, the truth is that the Catholic Church is every bit as mysogynistic, homophobic and anti-semitic as is Islam. "

i agree. but i havent spent the last 20 odd years fighting the catholic mullahs to roll over now for the islamic ones. if galloway was cuddling up to extreme catholics i would criticise him for that as well.

author by pat cpublication date Fri Jan 13, 2006 17:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i dont think that all muslims are antigay, antijews or antiwomen but galloway is happy to associate with islamic clerics who are all of the above.

author by observerpublication date Fri Jan 13, 2006 17:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Good god! You have a lot of balls in the air (as in issues). Must be hard to juggle your support for the killing of unborn children with your sensitivity towards the Muslim community AND your stereotyped view of Catholicism. Best wishes.

author by Máirepublication date Fri Jan 13, 2006 16:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Pat C - Stop your lazy thinking or taking what you read in the media too literally - " i'm not sure that galloway knows a lot about thinking on the left. he is more at home with mysogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic mullahs." Why is it that it's ok to imply that all muslims are mysogynistic, homophobic and anti-semitic but not all catholics?? Yet, the truth is that the Catholic Church is every bit as mysogynistic, homophobic and anti-semitic as is Islam. Oh, yes. I know the answer to my own question! It's because islamophobia is officially sanctioned by western imperialism.

I have no time for Galloway and his anti-abortion views but they are a result of his much-touted catholicism, not his association with muslims.

author by pat cpublication date Thu Jan 12, 2006 19:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i'm not sure that galloway knows a lot about thinking on the left. he is more at home with mysogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic mullahs.

author by ronniepublication date Thu Jan 12, 2006 19:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I see Respect MPGeorge Galloway is saying that abortion is one of the evils of capitalist society and he says that many on the left are coming round to that.

Any thoughts...

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