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 Thursday November 17, 2005 01:12 by Sean
 From Sean on the newswire: Hundreds march against Fine Gael attack on Irish language
Hundreds demonstrated today against Fine Gael’s worrying proposal to make Irish language education optional, and no longer compulsory. The demonstration was kicked off at the main gates of Trinity College at lunchtime, and so was witnessed by large crowds of sympathetic spectators as well as participants. Hundreds marched to the headquarters of Fine Gael, to shouts of “Fine Bearla.” When the group arrived at Fine Gael headquarters, party leader Enda Kenny emerged to address the crowd. He received jeers from the crowd when he told them that removing the Irish language requirement would actually help the language. In an act of dispcicable cowardice he then fled from the crowd when someone from Ogra na Gael got up to speak. Some observers such as "Fear Bocht" are unimpressed: There is nothing intrinsically progressive about Irish; in fact the cultural snobs and elitists have often used it to look down on the working class. Nor has it anything especailly republican about it; I'll think you'll find Wolfe Tone did not have a word. For those who want to speak it, learn it and teach it, all facilities should be given but compulsion did not and will not work.
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Comments (83 of 83)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83He made a good point-
“If you teach it properly and use skilful teachers and innovative modern methods, students at Junior Cert level will really want to do the language because they enjoy it and not be tied up in the details of complicated grammar.
Why not do this whilst keeping it compulsory? Why not cease making Maths and English compulsory- give people the choice with those two subjects also??
The languauge was f***ed up by various policies by various governments throughout the years. Its shocking to think we are taught it from 4 -usually 18 and the majority cant speak it fluently! Shocking reflection on the consecutive depts of education!
What good is it saving the Irish language. Its not my language.
The language fanatics are losing their power. Since theinception of the State they have been forcing the Irish language down peoples throats. In the process of doing so they have destroyed the language and any hope of broadening its appeal. Todays paltry attendance shows that they are on the way out.
Bilingualism and voluntary studying of the Irish Language is the way forward.
There is nothing intrinsically progressive about Irish; in fact the cultural snobs and elitists have often used it to look down on the working class. Nor has it anything especailly republican about it; I'll think you'll find Wolfe Tone did not have a word. For those who want to speak it, learn it and teach it, all facilities should be given but compulsion did not and will not work.
It's a tough call. I love the language and am disappointed that it is the last one you will hear walking around the streets of our captial. However, the reason most of us who were taught it don't speak it is because it was imposed and taught in such a dreadful manner (at least for me - we always had to give confession in Irish, the two were intertwined) I'm not sure if the educational system today is any better, but perhaps I would rather see it not imposed than for people to leave school looking forward to never speaking another word of Irish again!!
The protest was organised by Na Gaeil Óga, and I was the Na Gaeil Óga Speaker at the protest.
What angered many at the protest was that Enda, having been given more than enough time to speak and defend his decision he then walked away when the organisers of the protest began to put our case forward.
He was treated to jeers of Éist, Éist Éist (Listen, etc) for showing such disrespect to the protesters.
The tone of this report is very worrying. Personally I speak Irish very well, but I almost never have any occasion to use it.
I am particularly worried by its use as a vehicle by middle-class well-connected parents to extract their children from mainstream schools so they can have them educated away from the great unwashed without the expense of private schooling.
That, however, has no bearing on the merits of teaching through Irish in principle.
Anyone - most of us - who went through the compulsory-Irish regime could never imagine that the daft pretence that it is the native language of the students, (therefore we must study literature not language) is productive.
We study foreign languages far less, but it is notable that we succeed far more in them.
Whoever who wants to study Irish (at any age) can be and should be supported, but what is at issue here is whether Irish language enthusiasts are entitled to require other people to study Irish when they don’t want to.
I cannot find a libertarian argument that would support that.
Worst of all, we now have a march (albeit a very small one) that seems to protest against the right of someone to express an opinion different to their own.
Its not often that I would support him but why should he listen to you? You are a bunch of backward fanatics who are destroying the Irish Language.
Why dont you go away and colonise Rockall?
'to shouts of “Fine Bearla.” '
'In an act of dispcicable cowardice he then fled'
'He was treated to jeers of Éist, Éist Éist '
Are you sure that it was Kenny who was treating people with disrespect?
What this report does not tell, you someone who actually witnessed it, is that Enda Kenny addressed the crowd IN IRISH (there was about 100-150 people there, and not "hundreds", and there was a good deal of head scratching and hushed "whaddidhesay?" going on from the Labour Youth crowd and others...
In addition, I saw that Trinity College Dublin Students Union were on the march - give me a break - TCD is the very place that you DON'T NEED IRISH as an entrance requirement.,...
I see Labour Party and UCDSU banners in the photos above. Is it LP and UCDSU policy to support compulsary Irish?
Since when is it TCDSU policy that Irish should be compulsary? Have a bunch Gaelgoir fanatics hijacked the UCDSU, TCDSU and LP banners?
FBSA, there were more United Irishmen than just Wolfe Tone, and many of them did indeed speak Irish. The language was widespread in Antrim and Down in the period, spoken mainly by Presbyterians.
Also, there have been quite a few republicans and socialists who either spoke Irish or were very supportive of it - Thomas Davis was another Protestant and certainly no O'Connell-style seoinín. Connolly supported the language and Jim Larkin sent his kids to Pearse's school.
And then to Pearse himself. Regardless of what many say about the imagery in his poetry, the man was a major educational thinker - matched only at the time by the likes of Francisco Ferrer, whose ideas on the Modern School led to his assassination.
I may as well end with a few words from Máirtín Ó Cadhain, "Seo í Athghabháil na hÉireann, an Réabhlóid, réabhlóid intinne agus réabhlóid anama, réabhlóid i gcúrsaí maoine, seilbhe agus maireachtála, maireachtáil mar Ghaeil leis na rudaí is dual dúinn mar Ghaeil."
Did Connolly or Larkin support compulsary Irish? Pearse called the Education system which was imposed on Ireland the MurderMachine. Well the fanatics who have shoved Irish down our throats for the last 80 years created a MurderMachine, one that murrdered the Irish Language. I dont think Pearse would have had much time for such a system.
Gaelic is indeed boring at school. But so is Biology, Maths, French, Economics, and Applied Maths. In fact, does the current schooling system not turn most children off the entire idea of having any kind of enthusiasm for the education process? Most kids hate school; I know I did. If Gaelic shouldn't be mandatory, then why should school be?? Also, since when has the English language been superior to Irish? Why have we not heard Enda Kenny say "Well maybe we shouldn't force children to learn Shakespeare at school, because it might turn them of the man for life"? If I didn't know any better, I'd say that this was nothing short of an attack on Gaelic culture. Instead what we have is a party desperately snatching at any class of a policy that might help them stand out from the rest of the bullshit merchants.
Personally, I would love it if we all spoke Gaelic as our first language, but were also fluent at English for the purposes of communication on an international platform. Something similar to what they have in Scandinavia. And to be honest, I think most Irish people would agree with me. But I think that this can only be implemented on a local bases, rather than through some kind of centralized dictatorship type system which has a habit of turn everyone off everything.
If the Irish language is so naturally the first tongue of this country why have we been subjected to so many campaigns over many years to try and keep it alive artificially ?
I suspect that it suits a small vocal majority to retain it.
How the hell in a day of tight competition for every subgrade in the Leaving Certificate do we still justify the bonus marks scheme for answering cetain papers through Irish. That could facilitate a gaelgoir (spelling ?) of inferior academic ability to get higher gradings than a superior student who happens to answer through English.
Does anyone know if that Leaving Cert bonus scheme for Irish scripts is based on some statutory authority ? Does it have a legal basis or is it just an established practice.
You can pass as many Official Languages acts as you like but it won't make Irish the predominant language of the majority of the population.
>>and many of them did indeed speak Irish. The language was widespread in Antrim and Down in the period, spoken mainly by Presbyterians.
This is your typical SF crap - "Were are all Irish and the Prods up north are just a bit confused". The fact is they spoke Scots-Gaelic, not Irish Gaelic. Ulster-Scots do not subscribe to an Irish (Irish-Gaelic) identity, period. In the same way that the average East Glaswegian doesn't subscribe to the notion of a British identity.
I'm not interested in the Gaelic language because I happen to live on a rock called Ireland. I'm interested in it because it was the language of my ancestors and I feel that it connects me to them is some way. I also feel that perhaps in a way I am righting a wrong when I speak os Gaeilge. You also express yourself differently in Gaelic than you would in English. Other than that, I don't know why anyone would be interested in speaking the language. In other words, I have no desire to see anyone other than those who feel part of Irish-Gaelic culture speaking Irish.
I also have a problem with the idea of expressing my identity on a national level, rather than on a local one. For example, there has been an attempt to standardize Irish into 3 dialects. The fact is, there are a whole range of different Gaelic dialects found on this island - East Ulster Gaelic - which is actually palatable to certain Ulster-Scots - being one that springs to mind. There are also words that are unique to local areas. Gaelic is a cultural identity which gradually changes as you travel from the south of Ireland to the Western Isles, or from Connemara to the Isle of Man. Gaels from Ayrshire would have had no problem communicating with their felow Gaels on Antrim for example. But when you start drawing artificial borders over this gradual transition you get people having to decide which side of the border they belong to - with Ulster Scots choosing Scotland. This is sad when you think that Ulster Scots are from areas of South Western Scotland where Gaelic culture was very strong in the past - most Ulster-Scots have Gaelic surnames after all. But trying to pigeon hole them into an Irish identity has had the result of making them hateful of all Gaelic culture, including their own. Again, when you force things on people this is the result.
{ note: I'm posting stuff that I haven't clue what's being said, but I'm sure it is interesting.... }
• Podcasts...
An tImeall Blog
http://imeall.blogspot.com/
Enda compulsory Irish for Leaving Cert ?
http://www.janinedalton.com/blog/archives/2005/enda-compulsory-irish-for-leaving-cert/
Other discussions at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishblogs/
such as...
'Foinse carried a story on
podcasting on 2nd October in which they speculated whether Raidio na
Gaeltachta or NEAR FM would do the first podcast "as Gaeilge"? I
wrote them letter explaining that An tImeall had published the first
podcast as Gaeilge on 2nd July. Their email BOUNCED! I tried 3
times more to email them including 2 phone calls. Eventually I sent
the mail to an alternative address - but I never saw it published.
For the record - NEAR FM won the race to be the first RADIO STATION
to podcast as Gaeilge! :-)'
Above, a http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishblogs/
comment from author of http://imeall.blogspot.com/
>> If the Irish language is so naturally the first tongue of this country why have we been subjected to so many campaigns over many years to try and keep it alive artificially?
Because the tans did a good job of beating it out of us ...
>> I suspect that it suits a small vocal majority to retain it.
It suits me to retain it because I like the language, and I don't think I'm in a small minority.
>> How the hell in a day of tight competition for every subgrade in the Leaving Certificate do we still justify the bonus marks scheme for answering cetain papers through Irish. That could facilitate a gaelgoir (spelling ?) of inferior academic ability to get higher gradings than a superior student who happens to answer through English.
What's your definition of inferior academic ability? Someone who plays football or piano most evenings, when they should be learning about Spirogyra or the vomitarium.
I grew up in the Gaeltacht, but my Irish wasn't good enough for me to sit my Leaving Cert through it. But this idea that Irish speakers are given some kind of unfair advantage is hilarious to me. Despite the fact that 120 people from my area sat the leaving cert the year I finished school, only a handful went to university. Compare this to most parts of the country and you'll note that Gaelic speakers are far from being advantaged with respect to the island as a whole. I live in the poorest county in Ireland, despite the fact that we contributed more to the liberation of this island than most areas. Is that fair?
I'm no fan of giving people advantages because of their race, creed, or sex, but considering how unfair the whole leaving cert system is, you can't single out Gaelic speaking bonus points. What about the fact that some people have the best teacher's money can buy while others are taught by alcoholics and manic depressants. I found out last year that I have dyslexia. I also found out that my IQ is in the top 1% of the general population. I got 450 points in my leaving cert despite studying for a few hours every evening. Therefore the points I was rewarded are in no way a reflection of my ability. In effect, non-dyslexics are given bonus points because the examination system is biased in their favour. You try doing a writen exam when you write 4 times slower than the average person. This is a much greater scandal than giving bonuses to people from poor and remote parts of Ireland.
>>Does anyone know if that Leaving Cert bonus scheme for Irish scripts is based on some statutory authority ? Does it have a legal basis or is it just an established practice.
I have worked as a lecture in the past. Does anyone know if I would be perfectly entitled to give all my lectures in Gaelic in future? Would it be constitutional to deny me this right? Could the concerned Irish college discimate against Irish over English? People are so obsessed by the idea that Irish is rammed down our throats that they fail to see the fact that English is forced upon us to an even greater extent.
>>You can pass as many Official Languages acts as you like but it won't make Irish the predominant language of the majority of the population.
I agree. Power to the people.
>> Not my language.
>>by -Socialist- Wednesday, Nov 16 2005, 5:27pm
>>What good is it saving the Irish language. Its not my language.
"Its not my language so its not worth saving". Sounds like the same attitude the USSR had towards Ukrainian poets, directors and writers.
I am surprised to see so many people that call themselves Irish bash the Irish Language. Language is part of a nations identity. It's sickening to see so many west brits on here. Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná béarla cliste.
I was getting the 10 into town today from UCD, beside me there was a a group consisting of James Carroll, UCDSU's president, the research officer, and the usual collection of gaelgoir zealots that intersperse conversation with random bits of Irish in a loud tone as if they were on an educational mission to the rest of us standing around. Between the seven or so of them they were struggling to affix a4 pages that spelled out "Aontas" and something else to a welfare banner. "What the fuck are they at?" - I'm asking myself. Later, Im again waiting for the ten, standing around outside Trinity, when a rauccous enough bunch of kids that look no older than 16 pass by screaming "everywhere we go, people always ask us." Really confused at this stage. What the hell is going on? The confusion deepens, as the bus drags itself through traffic up by the Dail and then it dones on me - is this a protest over Enda Kenny's comments on Irish? Christ, it couldn't be, surely not. Yep it was.
I mean for god sake, nothing is more irritating and damaging to the Irish language than this sort of cheap, political wielding of the language used by retrobates who fancy themselves as the next Hector, and even worse there is the Fianna Fail and Labour Youth element who are merely using this as a ram to batter Fine Gael with.
When I heard Enda's comments, part of me, for a second only, felt like crawling out of my anarchist stupor and throwing the bastard a vote. Its called common sense. I have no problem with attempts to sustain the use of Irish and recognising its cultural value. But it makes me physically fucking sick, when I see these types moaning on about some phantom attempt to destory the language from Fine Gael. What sort of disorder or you suffering from, if you cant recognise that, after years in school having the language rammed down your throat and most people still come out without even a remote conversational ability in the damn thing? Its the equivilent of claiming that bludgeoning a patient across the head is the best way to cure a headache.
UCDSU has a bilngual policy that recognises the equality of Irish and English in its democratic and working structures. That UCDSU banner was only there because a Fianna Fail hack of a president and his immediate cronies wanted to use today as a chance to attack FG. They should be reprimanded for it.
Considering the Evening Herald now has a regular Polish language section, you'd seriosuly think these people would come to the realisation that for the most part the functional use of Irish is over for most of us. It may have a cultural value, but not for much longer if the idiots that marched today are the ones expecting to lead the charge in reviving it.
>>Did Connolly or Larkin support compulsary Irish?
Did Connolly or Larkin support compulsary English?
>>Considering the Evening Herald now has a regular Polish language section, you'd seriosuly think these people would come to the realisation that for the most part the functional use of Irish is over for most of us.
Because loads of capitalists are coming to Ireland, the functional use of Irish is over for most of us, is that what your saying? That makes sense I guess, considering money is the only language people in this country seem to understand any more.
>>But it makes me physically fucking sick, when I see these types moaning on about some phantom attempt to destory the language from Fine Gael. What sort of disorder or you suffering from, if you cant recognise that, after years in school having the language rammed down your throat and most people still come out without even a remote conversational ability in the damn thing?
Why should English be compulsory? Why should anything be compulsory? If those attacking those in favour of compulsory Irish fail to simultaneously call for an end to compulsory English, Maths, or having to go to school full stop, then why should we not think that there is an anti Gaelic mentaily at play here?
>>Why should English be compulsory? Why should anything be compulsory? If those attacking those in favour of compulsory Irish fail to simultaneously call for an end to compulsory English, Maths, or having to go to school full stop, then why should we not think that there is an anti Gaelic mentaily at play here?
I agree. If there was a call for the end of compulsory English AND Irish, and a proper system was put in place whereby people could learn Irish in a highly practicle fashion if they wished to, then I wouldn't have a problem. But this is not the case and people are not "idiots" for showning their opposition to something that is of concern to them.
The Irish language is a very important part of Ireland's rich culture and heritage and it would be wrog to allow it become even more extinct by adopting Enda Kenny's crazy idea. In that case, sure why not make Maths and English an option as well !! Perhaps the syllabus of teaching it needs to be improved because when we study French for 5 years at Seconday School, we come out almost fluent in it but yet when some of us study Irish at both National and Secondary School, some of us come out not perfectly fluent in it. So it would be the syllabus that probably needs to improved. But scrapping a part of our culture and native tongue is not a good idea.
Surely the people that are fighting for the language also believe in freedom of choice?
Why force it on a person that does not wish to learn the language?
English and maths are basic requirements in life so there is a reason for them being compulsary. Irish is not a requirement for most college courses or jobs.
If you want choice and freedom then accept and respect that same freedom for others.
Fine Gael were (and obviously still are) 'the Commonwealth Party.
I had wanted Fianna Fáil out. Now I have to vote for them again as Fine Gael are unnacceptable in my opinion as an alternative.
They even bring the protestors out - very statesmanlike. Is this the level of sweeping changes we can expect?
Doesn't say much for their respect for the Irish people or their supposed coalescing partners if they need to march against them already.
If Enda Kenny’s proposal that Irish not be taken by all leaving certificate students in future were implemented the result would be the marginalisation of Irish as a subject in our schools.
There have been problems in the teaching of mathematics in recent years. A new syllabus is being designed to combat this problem. Would this approach in the case of Irish not be a preferred solution?
Irish like any other language is a skill to acquired by practice. You cannot cram a language. Students would be under tremendous pressure in the context of the points system, to choose a subject that can be crammed. Irish is not a cramming subject.
If students are forced to choose between Irish and other subjects required for their chosen careers (for example biology or chemistry in the case of medicine) the student will be left with no choice but to choose the other subject, thereby denying such students the choice of studying Irish.
Many schools would discontinue teaching Irish for the leaving cert.
This policy, were it to be implemented, would be a retrograde step not only regarding the teaching of Irish but also to teaching of other languages, frustrating the policy of the European Union that all citizens have proficiency in three languages. Conradh na Gaeilge fully endorses this European ideal.
I understand that there is a need for change and the following are Conradh na Gaeilge’s policies regarding this question based on European best practice:-
1. All language teachers at both primary and post-primary level to have attended a year long immersion course in that language’s heartland as part of their training.
2. One subject along with Irish to be taught through Irish to all pupils/students.
3. One subject to be taught through a third language to every second level student.
· The realisation of an Irish language syllabus (1) for native speakers and (2) for learners.
· The realisation of intense ‘catch up’ courses in Irish for pupils who attended school overseas.
· The realisation of State examinations in the major languages of the immigrant communities.
Response:
The language is already marginalised because of the activities of C na G, O'Cuiv, and other language zealots.
There is no gaeilge "heartland" - it's a niche, minority, enclave enforced by racist laws that now prevent others from settling there by nature of what language they can or can't speak.
Go ahead and teach one optional subject through Irish: Irish.
I presume you people have read Flann O'Brien's "An Beal Bocht", and therefore the proposals outlined by C na G are posted, firmly, teanga in cheek...
The banner was there because of a motion passed at SU Council on Monday, supporting the protest. Sin é.
Would Daithi's membership of FF have influenced the stunt nature of the protest yesterday?
Shame on LPY for playing the tune of FF. Maybe Rabbitte is right when saying all you want to do is team up with FF.
There are a number of different issues being confused here. One is the system of teaching Irish in schools. The other is the compulsory requirement and the third is the desperate attempts by some confused socialists to look down on the language rather than see it as part of a struggle against cultural imperialism.
No-one, anywhere, thinks we teach Irish in the right fashion. The Irish language groups, the teaching unions, the Government, the political parties, the students all agree the language is being taught poorly and ineffectively. But the solution, as a poster from Conradh pointed out and as the Government are considering, is to examine ways of teaching differently with an emphasis on oral language. But the system of teaching is different to the compulsory status. Maths was for years taught very poorly but no-one, and rightly so, suggested dropping it. I don't believe for one minute there are not people supporting Kenny who's political analysis on the subject is no more advanced than 'I hated Irish in school, wish it had been optional.'
Dropping the language as a compulsory requirment will immediately lead to a massive reduction in those people who can speak even a little of it. Schools are being turned into factories for the production of workers for the capitalist system. Subjects that students see as harder or of less use for university are being dropped. Irish would be one of the ones to suffer. The downgrading of the language, for that is what is being proposed here, would have serious repercussions for the survival of the language.
But in the end it comes down to the arguments around culture and identity, where your average leftist gets really uncomfortable in his or her desperate attempt to cut ties to any 'nationalist' sentiment. It's curious to me that the two great bastions of opposition to cultural imperialism in Ireland, the GAA and the Irish language, are the two most despised by the micro-left. The Irish language is an expression of our identity and culture no less valuable than that of some indigenous tribe anywhere in the world for whom the outrage and ire of our micro-left comrades would be great at any such threat. Yes, our language is in trouble, and this concerns some of us and doesn't concern others. But efforts are being made to rescue it.
One poster disparagingly referred to the Gaelscoileanna as a 'middle class' pursuit. It is a common misconception. Finglas is as far as I know the only part of Ireland where one can go from pre-school to third level through your native language. Middle class it is not. There are gaelscoils catering to Cabra, Clondalkin, Tallaght and vast swathes of working class Dublin and in many of these situations it is working class activists who have got them up and running and sustained them through the difficult first couple of years.
Two final points. As a poor Irish language speaker but one who has made several attempts to learn I do accept that the Irish language movement can be its own worst enemy. The Cumann Gaelach in my university openly divided the populace into fíorgaels and non-Irish speakers. The notion that you are not a 'true' Irish person if you do not speak the language is a pile of nonsense but regrettably something believed by a small, but vocal, minority of Irish language activists.
Lastly, the size of the crowd was small. Don't for a minute think that's a sign of weakness. It was a march organised from Monday morning by text messages and phone calls that took place in the middle of the afternoon. If you want a real show of the strength of the Irish language lobby look at the Stadas campaign, which was a fantastic success. Irish language activists are among some of the most committed, determined and fanatical political activists I have ever met.
Sean, you'd do well to re-read Ironic's comments. A wee bit of hypocrisy re: disrespect. And do you really expect your news piece to be taken seriously when you stick in 'in an act of dispcicable (sic) cowardice' ? By the way, I've no time whatsoever for Enda Kenny, especially after his total silence on the Rossport Five struggle.
Seeing some of the comments above against the native language really churns my stomach. I suppose if we were to put doing ones Junior Cert or Leaving cert optional, then that would probably suit these people who are arguing against the Irish language. What harm does more education do? We should be campaigning to save our country's language rather than letting it slip away. Irish is important for all of us here in School and I don't mind studying it one bit.
Many subjects may be taught in a boring manner, but I only studied French in secondary school, yet I am more fluent in that than I am in Irish. (I left school nearly twenty years ago.)
I suspect that TG4 may be more successful in promoting Irish than traditional methods of teaching the language.
The difference is that the USSR was a dictatorship - languages were probably deliberately suppressed!
..ach í a labhairt.
Is ceilt ar mo cheart teanga tacaíocht Stáit a bhaint di mar is ceilt ar cheart sláinte othair an chóir leighis a bhaint dó.
It hurts me too to see some people here going against their very own language that has been the no.1 fabulous symbol of Eire. We shouldn't be influenced by some other countries just because they don't acknowledge Irish as a legitimate language. Some crazy arguements here are asking to destroy the Irish language. In other words, they wan't to scrap learning. Such an incompetent remark to make. People should be campaigning to save the Irish language and to promote it internationally.
>>English and maths are basic requirements in life so there is a reason for them being compulsary. Irish is not a requirement for most college courses or jobs.
Are they? Are poems a basic requirement in life? How about "Wuthering Heights" is that a basic requirement? Why is being able to quote from "Wuthering Heights" a basic requirement and writing an essay in Irish not? Does it not depend on the person? Who the hell are you to define whats a basic requirement for life? Is differentiation or integration a basic requirement in life? Culture is more of a requirement in life in my book than some equation you'll probably never use in a practical sense. Your calling on people not to be facists when it comes to compulsory Irish, yet still insisting on other subjects being compulsory. This is nothing more than blatant hypocrisy.
>> If you want choice and freedom then accept and respect that same freedom for others.
I wish I was fluent in Irish. I'm not because of our shite educational system with prioritizes subjects that will lead young people down the path to capitalism. I wish I was given as good an education in Gaelic as I was in Maths or English; in hindsight. But I wasn't, so have I been free to receive the education of my choice?
>> Many schools would discontinue teaching Irish for the leaving cert.
Exactly; excellent point. There was no leaving cert Music in my school, because it is a poor narrow-minded part of the country. They did have leaving cert business and economics of course. Young people in Ireland view education as a stepping stone to their first job, when education should be about broadening a persons horizons in the broadest possible sense. Being good at maths and science is very important if you wan't to work for Microsoft or some American pharmaceuticals and being good at English is very important if you want to get into advertisement or marketing. Being good at French or German is important if you wish to live the high life of a Brussels beurocrat. On the other hand, Music, Irish, Art, Latin,Greek ect are not good capitalist subjects and they will always be marginalized in our "show me the money" mentality.
>> There is no gaeilge "heartland" - it's a niche, minority, enclave enforced by racist laws that now prevent others from settling there by nature of what language they can or can't speak.
It was racism that almost made Gaelic speaking Ireland exinct in the first place.
>>The difference is that the USSR was a dictatorship - languages were probably deliberately suppressed!
no probably about it.
Irish shouldn't be forgotten. Ireland already has most of its culture wiped out when it was colonised by britain. It should remain a taught subject in School. Perhaps we should make english optional instead.
I once spoke fluent Irish, but lost the gift during a stint with the Christian Brothers, as one was beaten if ones Irish was poor. Of course I rebelled, and now have hardly a word of it.
Never the less, I think people like the C.B's ruined learning in general. Taking compulsory Irish off the agenda is a pathetic attempt at trying to be seen as progressive democratically which is essentially what Fine Gael are all about.
...Did I say progressive Democrats there?
Labour, don't sell us out again!
I don't like being refered to as one of James Carroll's "cronies". You should know that I am not. And as for the LY presence, it wasn't about an excuse to bash Fine Gael, those of us present actually cared about what we were marching for. Just because you had no interest in this particular protest, it doesn't give you the right to go bad-mouthing those of us who were there.
"This is your typical SF crap - "Were are all Irish and the Prods up north are just a bit confused"."
I'm not SF.
"The fact is they spoke Scots-Gaelic, not Irish Gaelic. Ulster-Scots do not subscribe to an Irish (Irish-Gaelic) identity, period. In the same way that the average East Glaswegian doesn't subscribe to the notion of a British identity. "
The fact is that they spoke Irish Gaelic, henceforth Gaeilge, not Gàidhlig. Regardless, the Scottish Gaelic actually developed out of Gaeilge, but that's not particularly important here.
Most "Ulster-Scots" (or Scotch-Irish as they were generally known before 1985) or Irishmen of Protestant descent have recognised at one point or another that they were indeed Irish. Before partition most unionists referred to themselves as Irish (as featured in many propaganda posters of the Englishman, Scotsman, Welshman and Irishman living in perfect harmony) and it has only really been since partition that unionists have pushed their whole British identity (and their "Ulster Scot" identity after 1985). They can call themselves Taiwanese for I all care, it honestly doesn't bother me whatever handle they give themselves.
And you don't actually expect me to take the idea of an Ulster-Scots "language" seriously, do you?
Just as Gaeilge or the various forms of english spoken, written, transmitted or taught in Ireland.
I got a complimentary copy one of the first 500 copies of the ulster-scots dictionary, and I still have the first british published Collins gaeilge bearla dictionary stashed at home. It really is stashed too, it sits between the damper and frame of the piano and acts as a lever which ensures a sort of practise mode which stops the upstairs neighbour {an old man by the name of Benito [we may presume a life for him no doubt]} from complaining during his daily five hour siesta.
Languages are equal.
You take them all seriously or none of them. However, you may not agree with the denominations. For many commenting here (possibly linguists) or on the march yesterday they may subscribe to the idea of a "unified Gaeilge". One which has superseded the special alphabet of the Free State and other "localised" forms thanks to the sylabus provided by the Irish state. Others see distinct dialects, an educated "syncretic" version, and a clear division between Scottish and Irish gaeilic literature and song forms in the XVI century.
Who can say that a Connaught man has no right to say he speaks connaught gaeilge? It seems unimportant, because we are not presently or plausibly discussing Connaught in distinct political terms. But the moment Connaught moves to independence, the question of "dialect" and "language" will be hotly debated. Its rather like the idea that Scottish english is a distinct language with common roots to what we call "English". They are so similar for historical and geographical reasons but trace roots to a common "inter-comprehensible" family of _oral_ Frisean languages.
None of you thus can understimate the rôle the written form of Gaeilge has played in our approach to education, revival, transmission, activism and historical understanding. In the space of one century the language has changed typeface and alphabet three times. But the oral words have not. I can't leave a comment on this debate, (for which I'm not qualified in any particular sense to take part) without making reference to the "distinctions" between Catalan and Valencian. The EU sees no difference _in the written form_ this fact means Catalan independence activists may happily and confidently deny the existence of a distinct language, just as spanish unionists may happily and confidently believe there is. & you know something? They are different languages. Just as the US speaks a different language to the one you see in the movies and on telly and think you can understand. For language means much more than the written word or even the spoken words. Which is why we say they "live".
beo!
Sorry but I wasn't refering to you specifically there. But tell me, is it now LY policy to support compulsary Irish? Whatever about your support for the Irish language do you not see the ludicrousness of the whole furoe around Kenny's comments? He's merely suggested something most rational teenagers have been bitching about behind the bikeshed for years, the right not to have Irish shoved down there throat. You'd have been better off marching on Bertie for his comments on the church, instead you remain distracted with an effective non issue while education remains predominantly controolled from the clositer. On subject choice in general I won't even bother going into arguments about the discrimnatory nature of the exam system, and how it fails to reward people with different modes of intelligence. But compulsary Irish - in this day and age? Seriously.
It would be most interesting if Enda was not re-elected as TD for Mayo. (as I wrote here before somewhere)
I'll refer you to this discussion:
http://www.ucdsu.net/newswire.php?story_id=840&condense_comments=false#comment4535
And just on your point about this being a non-issue, again, maybe to you it's a non-issue, but to me and others it is quite an important issue. I'm sure you've often been confronted by people saying to you "why do you bother campaigning/protesting against that? It's a non-issue/it doesn't affect us!"
Please have respect for those of us who believe in a cause, even though you don't believe in this particular one.
does anyone else find it strange that only one post has really raised the issue that if you want ppl (children) to speak irish, and thus raise this country out of its anglo-saxonhood (as its widely known on the continent) then you must teach THROUGH the language. (many continentals dont even know irish exists)
im working off the premise that the more languages one speaks the better (for mental and communicative reasons etc.), but shouldn't your own one be one of them? lets take luxemburg for example. they go to school in luxemburgish, then are taught through german, then french and then english. do people not think that we could learn something from this. another example, when finland got its independence after ww1, the schools were converted into finnish (thought of as a dying language then, much like irish nowadays) now everyone speaks finnish, (some speak the old colonial language of swedish too) and of course , as ppl like to point out, the lingua-magna (in commercial, capitalist, and i suppose because of this, real terms) english.
ppl are not stupid and children have the capacity to learn many languages! i know a child in my town who (when i last checked) spoke irish and spanish, and was only learning english by going to school (he was four when i last heard). ps. im not from the gaeltacht.
and clearly schooling THROUGH irish would not mean that we would not be able to speak english, or any other language, because of our proximity to Britian, english would naturally be the second language.!
Nearly at the end now > Its a disgrace to let any language die, as language is expression built up through time, which reflects a group of peoples own historical experience, good and bad, and because of this contains such words, structure and idioms which make it unique, i.e. untranslatable. that alone is the beauty of language and thus life, and should be enough for anyone to struggle for its survival.
finally, whatever your politics may be, cultural nationalism in a situation where a culture is under atttack (in this case irish) is justified and should not be a political footbal. it is distinct from politics and should be kept so.
go raibh míle
ogí
I agree that Irish should not be compulsory. Forcing people to do it only causes resentment towards the language.
I think its next to impossible to teach a language in a classroom and expect people to become fluent without using it everyday.
People who study German, French or Spanish can go to countries where they are spoken and become fluent in almost months.
You can't do that with Irish. Unless you use it everyday you lose what you were taught.
For those who say "why not make English and Maths optional as well" I'm sorry to say that Maths and English are practical subjects whereas Irish sadly is not.
People who cherish it as a cultural heritage should learn it and leave the people who don't in peace.
Besides there is more to being Irish than the words we once used. Our identity, humour and culture are alive and well regardless of the language used.
I think you would be giving the Irish people a severe disadvantage by teaching things such as Maths, Science and Business, Chemistry through Irish.
I know people who have attended schools where this was done only for the school to reverse its decision and go back to teaching science in English because it was too hard for the students.
And if the students overcome the extra difficulty of learning through Irish, what happens when they leave school and all the nomenclature they learned is useless to them?
Like it or lump it English is the language of choice for business.
Incidentlly ,I myself chose to do pass Irish half way through the Leaving Cert and took up Applied Maths instead because that was more relevant and practical to what I wanted to do. The honours class were still learning Stair Na Gaelige in May.
Perhaps Irish should be mandatory only up until the Junior Cert. That gives people a grounding in the language yet doesn't interfere with practical needs like securing a college placement.
{THE IRISH PEOPLE DESERVE BETTER}.
Having their own native language eradicated by a crazy proposal that the F.G leader made is nuts. We should be improving its syllabus in order to make it more popular. English and Maths would have to be made optional if Irish was made optional. Irish should stay and it should not be dictated to by anyone who want's to colonise the Irish language.
Ni aontaim le raiteas Enda Kenny.
I was taught all of my subjects through Gaeilge in Coláiste Eoin in Stillorgan, Dublin.
If I remember there was an article saying that the schools students fared best in the country with 97% going on to 3rd level courses last year, or year before.
Not bad for a non-fee paying Christian brothers school hampered with a peasants language.
Gaeilge is not a 'peasants' language amadan. I doubt you had any appreciation for the language judging by the way you ignorantly post comments like that one above.
You are so proud of speaking the english language and addressing its rights in Ireland. Yet, you wan't to deny us our rights.
I think that was meant as sarcasm.
There may be a problem even if the methods of teaching Irish are improved. I am living in Sweden for a few months. You should hear their English. I don't have to say any more. You would actually think some of them are English or American or even the odd one Irish when you hear them speak english. Many of them, however, tell me they also took french or German at school for 5 years or so but can't speak a word now. Their explanation is that English is all around them - it's in their textbooks at University, it's the language of computer programs & the internet, it's on TV, films & stuff they buy in the shop. They are also motivated to improve their English as it's the "international" language.
So if the teaching of Irish were improved to have it taught as a living, modern language, who is to say that anyone would be more motivated to learn it then either? There are some differences though. If Irish pupils were taught Irish from first class on there would be a better chance that the motivation factor would not be that important. Also, although it is may be a language with little relevance or meaning to some people I would suggest that it has far more relavance to Irish people than German or French has to Swedish people. How many people have you heard say "I would love to be able to speak Irish, but the way it was taught at school was disasterous! I learned nothing" . This relevance factor would not be true for young children but could compensate for the lack of any other motivating factor as they got older.
As such I think that Irish should be given the benefit of the doubt that if a significant percentage of people, left school with conversational Irish they may choose to speak it occasionally in everyday life. Right now this is only an option for a tiny percentage of the population. Too small a percentage to hear it on the streets of Dublin or to randomly start talking Irish to a stranger as should be the norm. The problem of english being everywhere in Ireland - on billboards, on the packaging of consumer products, as standard greetings would still exist though and may be a barrier to people feeling "at home" speaking the language.
I would propose that any talk of making Irish optional be shelved for at least 10 years after Irish has been taught as a modern language in Irish shcools. At least then and if it was done right there could be thousands of 15 year olds in a far better position to make a choice than there is now. There can be no choice at the moment. If I had passed through the english school system in Ireland and found myself aged 15 with virtually zero ability to converse in Irish, as the vast majority of pupils in Ireland do, I would definately drop Irish for the leaving cert. How could I miraculously do honours (to get the points) in a subject I can't even speak? It's a farce.
Please don't allow the shambles the Irish state have made of the teaching of Irish in our schools since 1922 cloud your judgement on this issue. The reason people can't speak Irish now is that they were never taught it.
I certainly won't be voting for Enda Kenny if he wants to wipe out the Irish language. He is crazy for proposing that it should be made optional in School. If we were to undergo his facist idea, then it would come to the stage where the Junior Cert would be proposed as optional as well. Quite scary-some of the remarks posted above arguing that his proposal is a fair one. It certainly isn't.
>>Surely the people that are fighting for the language also believe in freedom of choice?
Lets say I got a job working for a national newspaper. Now can you imagine what would happen if I arrived up to the editor with my first article written completely in Gaelic? Would it get publised. Would it fuck, so please spare us the freedom rant!
How about abolishing compulsory English? It's been forced down the throats of Gaeltacht children for generations. And if Irish speakers weren't forced to use English on every occasion, their love and sympathy for English might blossom...
Equality between the two languages - neither of them more compulsory or optional than the other - an idea too radical for most people on this thread, de réir cosúlachta.
Its amazing to see some of the ANTI-IRISH facist comments here... Im against the proposal that Enda Kenny made. It was a very poor attempt to gain an extra point as the opposition. The good thing however is that the majority of the Irish people are against their own native language been destroyed. I bet that Enda Kenny regrets making this proposal now!
The Irish language is our culture and our countrys official language. English is only the most spoken language here. But that doesn't give Enda Kenny the right to make this very fatal proposal because it has actually turned dozens of voters backs on him.]
Lets make going to School optional as well, why not?!
enda kenny is fluent in Irish, he speaks it at home and his children all go to Irish speaking schools so hes quite obviously not trying to destroy it hes trying to rebuild it from the ground up. i didnt think much of Kenny before but this is very impressive and he gets kudos for having the balls to be a bit radical for once
also as a labour party member im disappointed by some of the people present.
also its a protest i think you should be happy enough he came out and addressed you all in Irish, standing around listening to an unorganized group of 100 people would be a silly position to let himself get caught in
We're far from unique in our attitude to our language, amazing that some 'left wing' people would be backing cultural imperialism so much!!!
Suppose you don't have to be right wing to be an Uncail Tomás...
Info from Wikipedia on what the anti-irish lobby is all about (when I say anti-Irish I mean those who want to destroy the language completely, not those who want to change compulsion)
"Colonial mentality "
* A cultural notion of inferiority sometimes seen amongst populations previously subjugated and colonised by foreign entities.
Wikipedia info on Belorusian
"During Soviet times, the Belarusian language was viewed by many native speakers as a rural and peasant language as opposed to Russian's image as a modern and urban language". (Sound familiar???)
"In 1938 Russian language become an obligatory subject in all Soviet schools.
The final blow was the school reform of 1958, when parents were given the right to select the language of instruction for their children. After that, more and more people began to send their children to Russian-language schools, and the number of Belarusian-language schools began to diminish."
(Info from the US)
"Native Americans who desire to succeed in professional careers or who feel an attraction to popular (i.e., Western) culture or non-native religions often come to identify with the language of those pursuits -- English -- and to ascribe low status to native languages. Such tendencies are especially strong among the young, who increasingly identify with non-Indian role models"
(Factors in the decline of Native American languages include...)
"Pragmatism -- worrying about "what works," not about defending principles that may seem old-fashioned or outmoded. Pragmatists reason that, as indigenous languages decline in power and number of speakers, they are no longer "useful." With English taking their place in more and more domains, they no longer seem worth maintaining. "
"Individualism -- putting self-interest ahead of community interest. Ambitious individuals tend to ask: How is honoring the old ways going to help me "get ahead"? Other people can do what they want, but my family is going to stress English, the language of success in the dominant society. "
(Taken from 'Seven Hypotheses on Language Loss: Causes and Cures' by James Crawford)
...Marbhsháinn? (Checkmate?)
A Mhaubere.
Tá tú ar do chéill!!
A Dhuine,
go bhfios domsa ciallaíonn 'ar do chéill' go bhfuil mé ar meisce nó as mo mheabhair, an bhfuil an ceart agam ansin? nó an bhfuil tú ag rá go bhfuil an ceart agam faoi chursaí teanga?
mínigh le'd thoil!!!
Ta Enda Kenny cantalach, agus ni thuigim me leis.....
No way would I listen to Enda Kenny after making this ludricous proposal. I thought his party represented the Irish people and their country's values. Why would he propose this when there are already 1000s of jobs out there in Irish??? Its my favourite subject in School but English, since this is the colonisers language deserves to be made optional as this is one of the hardest subjects to pass in the Leaving Cert.
We all don't have to pursue learning our native tongue if we don't want to. We all have our own free will. Yet,I studied honours Irish all through secondary school and I loved it. All my friends loved it too. Irish is a ' teanga fileata '. English is too complicated. Why bother set up a Gaeilscoil in every county of the country if we're going to not keep it compulsory. If teenagers of Irish decent want to drop the subject for the leaving cert to maximise on their other six subjects, let them! Furthermore if we are being taught gaeilge from an early age, why the hell are we only made speak it for our oral leaving cert exam. If people find Irish difficult, take a pass or foundation paper.Enda Kenny I do not agree leat ar cur ar bith.For all of our languages, we still can't communicate!
Scríobh tú:
A Dhuine,
go bhfios domsa ciallaíonn 'ar do chéill' go bhfuil mé ar meisce nó as mo mheabhair, an bhfuil an ceart agam ansin? nó an bhfuil tú ag rá go bhfuil an ceart agam faoi chursaí teanga?
mínigh le'd thoil!!!
A athrach atá fíor. Ní "as" atá ann ach "ar". Is ionann is a rá gur labhair tú go ciallmhar.
Maith agat a Dhuine,
beir bua
Ná lig thar do bhéal é!
I think that Irish deserves to be retained in the Leaving Cert. There really is not any arguement that can justify for it being abolished only dictatorship by just one person alone. If it were to be put to a referendum, the majority of the people would vote to keep it, and by rightly so.
Mar gaelgóir, caithim a rá go bhfuil mé bréan de roinnt daoine sa tír seo ag labhairt faoi cur chun cinn na Gaeilge- agus iad gan Ghaeilge. Tóg Olwyn Enright, mar shampla.
As a gaelgóir, I have to say that I am sick of some people in the country talking about the best way to promote Irish- people that don't even speak it themselves. Take Olwyn Enright for example.
Tagaim leat a Jasoin,
ach is minic an duine gan Ghaeilge in áit na cumhachta sa tír
There seems to be a lot of anti-Irish comments here. Why can't people see that Irish is part of our culture and heritage instead of campaigning to abolish it?
There was a survey announced two days ago which stated that two thirds of Irish people are against the Irish language being abolished. The majority therefore support retaining our native tongue whilst on the other hand the minority support it being wiped off the face of this earth.
Here is what most of an article in the Ioirish Independent said a couple of days ago-(and this is from the "Independent" Group!!!
Overall the public is split 50% for it being compulsory and 48% against. The number of young people for it shows that the advances in the way it is taught over the last decade have made a difference, and that if more went on the aural, as is expecected- 50% hopefully- the numbers will go up.
It is mostly older people who are against it being compulsory.
"The public is split down the middle over whether or not Irish should remain a compulsory subject in schools.
But the main surprise from a nationwide survey is that young adults favour compulsion much more than those over 34 years of age.
At present, Irish is a compulsory subject at both primary and second level for most students - they are obliged to study the language up to Leaving Certificate level.
However, they are not obliged to take the subject or pass it in the Leaving Certificate examination.
Every year, a significant number of students who study the language do not take it in the exam.
The telephone survey of 1,000 people aged 15 and over was carried out for the Irish language paper, 'Foinse', by Millward Brown IMS between November 8 and 17.
Contrary to expectations, the Foinse survey has shown that younger people have a more favourable attitude towards the compulsory teaching of Irish schools. Some 65pc of those surveyed under 34 years of age were in favour of compulsion compared with only 26pc of those over the age of 34. The Irish language debate was re-ignited recently by Fine Geal leader Enda Kenny, who suggested compulsion was not working.
However, Minister Mary Hanafin responded by saying the best way forward was to make the language more attractive to students."
It's interesting how some people go on as if everyone hates Irish , but they don't.
I know a couple of socialists who think that most students hate it.
Mmm.... where are they now?
I personally don't agree with the proposal to make Irish an optional subject for the Leaving Cert. I never go on marches but I felt that I had to go on this one.
To get into the course I'm doing, a student must get an honours grade in honours Irish. I worked really hard to get that mark and to persue the career that I wanted. I got the opportunity to speak directly to Enda Kenny on the day. He made the point that to preserve our language, we must start in the early primary years and that more children should go to a Gaelscoil (there is only 7% of children currently enrolled in Gaelscoileanna at the moment.)
My fear is that if Irish is an optional subject for LC then less and less people will want to take it each year. Therefore the standard of Irish for Education Colleges will have to be lowered so the courses would be more attractive to prospective students. And then, the standard of Irish amongst teachers will be of a much lower quality than it currently is, and will continue to lower over the years.
From this I conclude that what Enda said about 'starting them young' won't work at all in the long run.
Maybe my comments are a bit 'out there' but I think that it is a point worth considering.
P.S. Why did Enda propose this in the first place? 15 year olds can't vote!
Yes but people over the age of 24, who haven't experienced the more modern Irish syllabus can, and many of them thought that it was a bad system and therefore think that it should be uncompusory.
It's interesting that a majority of 15-24 year olds are in favour of it being compulsory along with English and Maths.
" the main surprise from a nationwide survey is that young adults favour compulsion much more than those over 34 years of age."
A new IMS poll has shown that:
50% of people are for Irish being compulsory
48% of people are against it
2% have no opinion
"The public is split down the middle over whether or not Irish should remain a compulsory subject in schools.
But the main surprise from a nationwide survey is that young adults favour compulsion much more than those over 34 years of age.
At present, Irish is a compulsory subject at both primary and second level for most students - they are obliged to study the language up to Leaving Certificate level.
However, they are not obliged to take the subject or pass it in the Leaving Certificate examination.
Every year, a significant number of students who study the language do not take it in the exam.
The telephone survey of 1,000 people aged 15 and over was carried out for the Irish language paper, 'Foinse', by Millward Brown IMS between November 8 and 17.
Contrary to expectations, the Foinse survey has shown that younger people have a more favourable attitude towards the compulsory teaching of Irish schools. Some 65pc of those surveyed under 34 years of age were in favour of compulsion compared with only 26pc of those over the age of 34. The Irish language debate was re-ignited recently by Fine Geal leader Enda Kenny, who suggested compulsion was not working.
However, Minister Mary Hanafin responded by saying the best way forward was to make the language more attractive to students."
-Oirish Independent (of all papers)
C'mon people that are against Irish being compulsory, like English and Maths. Come out of the cupboards and excercise your "demons" in this debate.
don't be ridiculous. the extra marks given for doing papers through irish make no difference at higher level. you start off getting an extra ten percent of your marks for the lowest grade, and it decreases gradually as the marks climb. so someone with forty two percent would earn a massive forty six percent, and someone with ninety two would end up with about ninety three. they more than earn the extra marks, considering all the extra effort that is needed to learn the entire course through a language that realistically speaking is most probably not their first.
Enda Kenny's remark is what one would expect from the west-brit traitors in the free-state version of the UUP. I thought FG had moved on from Johnny the Brit, but as they say "Briseann an dúchas tré shuillibh an chait", once a blueshirt traitor, always a blueshirt traitor.
Muna bhfuil Gaeilge agat, muna bhfuilir dílis don Chreideamh is don Phoblacht seo a ceannaíodh dhúinn le fuil na laoch a dúnmharíodh i 1916, níl ionat ach conús do Shasanach!