Treaty gives CIA powers over Irish citizens

by Anthony M. Belli Fri Aug 26, 2005 22:28 The-Hangman at comcast dot net

I'm shocked as an American citizen to read that the Irish government has sold out the Irish people by allowing American authorities to operate in secrecy in their country and against it's citizens. It is a God given human right to protect your national sovereignty even if your government has failed to do so.

Protect your rights, idenity and sovereignty and rise up against the interlopers and force them out of Ireland. Those in your government who have supported this are guilty of treason and should be dealt with accordingly.

If you doubt what I say ask yourself this...

Would President Bush sign legislation that would allow the Canadian RCMP or the Mexican police to enter the US with secret police authority and act against American citizens?

Theres your answer. Fight Team Amerika World Police! Protect yourself, protect your sovereignty,
protect your rights.

by upset American Fri Aug 26, 2005 20:41

I used to think that if things completely went to hell here in the U.S. I could at least move to Ireland. Now they've grafted the "Patriot Act" onto your country too. Please, tell our politicians to stop meddling-- it's something they need to hear more often.

by A Horrified American Thu Aug 25, 2005 18:36

Without presuming to inject myself into the to-and-fro between you and "RC," to whom you refer as "a blatant liar," I'd say only that it doesn't matter. What matters is the very IDEA of the whole "mutual co-operation" business. It's outrageous to liberty-loving people everywhere that this idea has even been suggested. REFUSE AND RESIST.

by A Horrified American Thu Aug 25, 2005 18:24

You can't make up this sort of thing. It's like some sort of spy thriller novel or film. As an American, I am horrified by this action. But as an historian, I know that the Irish are a hardy, stalwart, freedom-loving race--facts that the Irish have spent 800 years demonstrating to the world. Even the US record of fighting for liberty does not surpass that of Ireland. To the question at hand, "What Can We Do?" I'd simply say, remember yourselves and your history. REFUSE AND RESIST. May God prosper your efforts. Liberty is imperilled everywhere nowadays, but concerted action can throw a wrench into the fascists' works. Remember that resistance is NEVER futile.

by Duine Mon Aug 08, 2005 15:18

Tugann an comhaontú seo cead fiosraithe, cead ceistiúcháin, cead faireacháin agus cead eolais phearsanta do mhuintir Stáit eile.
Haigh! Muna noibríonn aon cleas dlíthúil eile, d'fhéadfadh daoine nó daoine anaithnid na hamhrasáin a fhuadfadh le chur ar eitléan agus a bhaint as an Stát. Bheadh gach sonra ag na fuadaitheoirí roimh ré i dtaobh a ghnáthshaol beatha.
Tuige nárbh leor conarthaí eiseachadtha don Meiriceánach?

by Al Mon Aug 08, 2005 03:17

In everyones rush to hate or love this legislation you are all missing key points.

A, A person being moved from prison to testify in a case in America is not, I repeat, IS NOT being transfered into their custody, he/she remains in Irish custody and will return to an Irish prison. Extradition treaties to face crminal prosecution already exist and rightly so otherwise all someone would have to do is fly to Ireland and safety. Do you want Ireland full of international criminals?

B, Taking a statement or testimony from a person that isnt speaking isnt against their rights. Its a blank page! Let me explain this, when being questioned you are cautioned "You are not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so but anything you do so say will be taken down in writing and may be given in evidence". You are then questioned (On video tape). If you answer we write it down, if you dont answer its left blank or 'no comment' is written in. When you are compelled to give a statement it means we will still interview you even if you are not making an admission or speaking. However as per the caution above, your silence cannot be used against you as a sign of guilt.

C, You cant be arrested for something thats not against the law in Ireland. What power of arrest is there? What power of detention? Whats happened here is the agreement is allowing for changes to law in the future. But until the act becomes a crime in Ireland you are safe from this. BTW, we have laws that allow for prosecution against a person even if they didnt commit the crime here.

D, Reality is right, American agents hold no power on Irish soil. The CIA will not be arresting and questioning suspects. Thats what was claimed, the truth is that they can attend interviews. Yes they can ask questions, big deal. You dont have to answer as per the caution.

E, As for secret interogations. I believe most, if not all criminal investigations are secret when possible. Or should the Gardai inform people in advance? "HI Mr Jones, just a quick warning, we think your a drug dealer and will be raiding your house next Friday" - Somehow I doubt anything would be found. However 'secret interrogations' are not within our law as all people, under law and as per Treaty of persons in custody regulations, are entitled to have a person notified of their arrest, a solicitor consultation, a doctors visit and a telephone call. The telephone call and the person notified may be restricted, for example, if the person was trying to warn a co-suspect.

F, Mary, please point to the section that allows physical actions by the CIA on Irish soil? Please? Go on, use any current legislation you want.

Thats the problem, what could be a good debate is riddled with completely unsubstantiated claims and misquotes. If you have to tell fibs, twist the legislation and put a false spin on it then you have already lost the arguement. If someone was to say "Al, why can a foreign body even speak or attend an interview?" I would be left without a reasonable answer as I dont agree with that one myself but everything else I have read here is crap, plain and simple.

by Mary Kelly Sun Aug 07, 2005 14:52

Bravehearts needed to combat this savageness!
Two article from the Irsh Examiner 21/7/05 follow.

"In chilling disregard of the privilege against self determination, which exists in both Ireland and the US, the treaty states that when someone refuses to answer questions, his testimony “shall nonetheless be taken”. Mr Gonzales, US Attorney General, went on to assert that torture, is the ”death, organ failure or the permanent impairment of a significant body function.”
Treaty gives CIA powers over Irish citizens
By Dan Buckley
US INVESTIGATORS, including CIA agents, will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil in total secrecy, under an agreement signed between Ireland and the US last week.Suspects will also have to give testimony and allow property to be searched and seized even if what the suspect is accused of is not a crime in Ireland.

Under 'instruments of agreement' signed last week by Justice Minister Michael McDowell, Ireland and the US pledged mutual co-operation in the investigation of criminal activity. It is primarily designed to assist America's so-called 'war on terror' in the wake of the September 11 atrocities.

The deal was condemned yesterday by the Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL) as "an appalling signal of how the rights of Irish citizens are considered by the minister when engaging in international relations". The ICCL said it appeared to go far beyond even what has been agreed between EU countries.

On signing the agreement, the minister said that "the international community must do everything it can to combat terrorism with every means at its disposal.

"Ireland will not be found wanting," he added.

The treaty will give effect to agreements on Mutual Legal Assistance and Extradition signed by the EU and the US in June 2003. These are aimed at building on mutual assistance and extradition arrangements.

Although the Department of Justice insists that the arrangement merely updates existing agreements, it goes much further. The US may ask Irish authorities:

To track down people in Ireland.

Transfer prisoners in Irish custody to the US.

Carry out searches and seize evidence on behalf of the US Government.

It also allows US authorities access to an Irish suspect's confidential bank information. The Irish authorities must keep all these activities secret if asked to do so by the US.

The person who will request co-operation is US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, the man who, as White House counsel, instigated the notorious 'torture memo' to US President George W Bush which advised how far CIA agents could go in torturing prisoners. The person to whom the request is sent is the Minister for Justice.



ICCL director Aisling Reidy said: "An extraordinary aspect to this treaty is, despite its scope and its potential to violate basic constitutional and human rights, that all this happened without debate or transparency.

"To agree to give such powers to a government which has allowed detention of its own citizens without access to a lawyer for over a year, which has legitimised Guantanamo Bay and the interrogation techniques there, without public debate, is an appalling signal of how highly or not the rights of Irish citizens are considered by the minister when engaging in international relations."

The Department of Justice said it was wrong to say the treaty happened without debate, as the agreements update and supplement existing arrangements, and the EU-US agreement has been scrutinised by the Oireachtas four times since December 2002.

A spokesperson also rejected that the measures go beyond what was agreed between EU countries.

Legislation will be required to give effect to some elements of the Mutual Legal Assistance Instrument. The necessary provisions will be contained in the Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Bill which Mr McDowell expects to publish shortly.

Ireland's torture treaty by John Moher ( an Irish born attorney working in New York ) reports;

“Under the treaty, the US Government may ask the Irish authorities to interrogate people on its behalf. The US Government may even request that its agents carry out such interrogations. In other words if the Irish Government agrees, CIA agents may interrogate people including Irish citizens in Ireland.


In chilling disregard of the privilege against self determination, which exists in both Ireland and the US, the treaty states that when someone refuses to answer questions, his testimony “shall nonetheless be taken”. Questions of privilege will be decided afterwards. How testimony is to be taken from someone who refuses to answer is left to the imagination.

He ( US Attorney General ) is the man behind the so called “torture memo”. This memo advised US President George Bush just how far the US could go when it comes to abusing its prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere.
According to this memo, only activities resulting in “death, organ failure or permamnent impairment of a significant body function “amount to torture. Anything less, one supposes, such as beating someone to within an inch of their life or solitary confinement for years on end, is a legitimate way to “spread freedom”.
As if that twisted theory were not enough, Mr Gonzales went on to assert that torture, that is ”death, organ failure or the permanent impairment of a significant body function” is lawful if inflicted on “ enemy combatants” and is authorised by the President. ( Those who do the thinking for Mr Bush invented the notion of ‘ enemy combatants’ as a substitute for “Prisoners of War” as the latter have rights under the Geneva Convention ).
The rule of law is treated with such contempt by the regime in Washington that only the wilfully naive could assume that anyone transferred from Irish to US custody , or tracked down by US Authorities with help from the Irish Government, would be treated humanely.
What chance would an Irish citizen or resident have if delivered into Mr Gonzales’ clutches? The fact he is unlikely to be seeking anyone living in Ireland anytime soon doesn’t make the question any less important; the laws are in place to enable him and his successors to do so in complete secrecy.
Rather than concluding secret treaties with a lawless government, perhaps we should be closing our airports to their armies of aggression. Maybe then we could worry less about terrorism on our own soil.

by Fuse Sat Jul 23, 2005 19:46

I'm getting the popcorn in.. anyone want some? Is something being done, legally, peacfully? I read the Human Rights Commission were investigatng the treaty..? Is it too late or set in stone? Did the Chiefs sign us away to the Imperialists again?

PS: thanks for breaking down the jargon/myths with this funny debate..

by Chekov Sat Jul 23, 2005 16:28

You've got my agenda all wrong. Any real journalist - maybe from independent newspapers - could tell you that my real agenda is "I hate them because they are free". Nuff said.

by Guido Sat Jul 23, 2005 15:41 Guido at stopimperialism dot be http://stopimperialism.be

Bilateral Instrument between Ireland and the United States of America on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters

http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/vWeb/flJUSQ6EACZQ-en/$File/LegalMLAT.pdf

http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/vWeb/pcJUSQ6EACY3-en


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"The instruments, which were published on the Department of Justice’s website last week, clearly state that the requested party (Ireland) shall allow American representatives (such as CIA agents) to sit in on interviews of suspects arrested on Irish soil and ask questions.

The interrogations can be carried out in secret, and the costs of carrying them out, along with other US requests, will be borne by the Irish taxpayer under the agreement."

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=119527284&p=yy95z7846

by eeekkkk Sat Jul 23, 2005 15:30

Read the agreement yourself rather than trusting the DOJ interpretation.

Maybe the DOJ could arrange to make it an offence for 'irish people' to read this and similar agreements without supervision?

by Chekov Sat Jul 23, 2005 15:18

"I posted the rebuttal in full from the Department of Justice. It is not my opinion - it is an official statement from a government department.
My original post made this clear."

A statement which you clearly presented as being accurate and as proof that the Examiner article was "absolute horse sh**" and "ass about face" (your own words). You presented no other evidence apart from this press release so it is natural to assume that you consider it to be accurate and consistent with your own opinions. I note with interest that you have not referred to the text of the treaty itself in any of your arguments, nor have you apologised for any of the distortions which have been demonstrated.

RP: "The Irish Examiner article was nonsense. Its first paragraph: 'US INVESTIGATORS, including CIA agents, will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil in total secrecy, under an agreement signed between Ireland and the US last week,' is absolute rubbish."

It is, in fact, absolutely accurate. US investigators will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens in total secrecy under this agreement, as I have demonstrated above. There is absolutely no way of avoiding this conclusion unless you are being dishonest. You can keep on denying it, despite the fact that the treaty says it in black and white, but that only makes you look even less credible than you already are.

by Reality Check Sat Jul 23, 2005 14:59

Chekov,
I posted the rebuttal in full from the Department of Justice. It is not my opinion - it is an official statement from a government department.
My original post made this clear.

The Irish Examiner article was nonsense. Its first paragraph: 'US INVESTIGATORS, including CIA agents, will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil in total secrecy, under an agreement signed between Ireland and the US last week,' is absolute rubbish.
To the reader, it suggests that CIA snatch squads will be quizzing Irish people and furthermore that this can now legally be done without the knowledge of the Irish authorities.

If you wrote that Chekov, at least I'd know what your agenda is. However, when a national newspaper writes it, I don't.

Personal insult deleted. Normally, the complete post is hidden if it contains such insults. -ed

by Barry Sat Jul 23, 2005 14:14

He is trounced , caught out lying , hung by his own PD / garda petard .

by Chekov Sat Jul 23, 2005 14:03

"Have a look at the way Chekov has parsed his information from the agreement to suit his arguments."

I was actually rebutting your arguments, not making my own and simply quoted from the agreement text. Almost every word that I wrote was taken directly from the treaty text. Your claim that I have 'parsed' the text to suit my argument is laughable.

Your rebuttal is another typical distortion.

1. You claimed that there was "no provision for the transfer of prisoners" - I demonstrated this to be untrue. Will you apologise for spreading this untruth?

2. You write that "You can compel witnesses to attend all you want and still say nothing." But the agreement says "compelled, if necessary, to appear and testify". Notice the "and testify" bit which you seem to have missed. Since I've brought this omission to your attention, I think that a retraction and apology for your distortions is in order.

3. You originally wrote that "only Gardai can arrest, detain or question suspects in this state. " I demonstrated this to be untrue as there is a clear and unambiguous article which allows the CIA or anybody else "to ask questions directly of the person". Once again I demonstrated that you were telling pork pies. Your rebuttal is of a different point that is not related to anything I wrote. Slither slither.

4.RC: "This is already standard practice and is only being put on a formal footing. If you knew anything about intelligence operations, you would know that this happens widely and was happening pre 9/11." That's all very well, but what puzzles me is that just yesterday you seemed to be entirely ignorant of this standard practice when you stated that your paymasters' press release was "the facts". It clearly states that "There is no provision for the CIA to have access to bank accounts." It appears that in the space of 24 hours, you seem to have gone from thinking that this was impossible to thinking that it is standard practice? Which is it? Or is it just that you don't care what's in the treaty and will use any arguments, no matter how contradictory or spurious in defence of the minister?

5.RC: "Absolute nonsense. You just don't understand what you're reading. You are putting sections together to suit your own purposes."

Wow, that's me told. No argument, no evidence, it's just that I don't understand it! Imagine actually reading two articles in a treaty and coming to the conclusion that they are both applicable! What a downright ridiculous way to read something. Of course, in PD fantasy land, articles in treaties are strictly unrelated. So, for example, if a legal code allows for the arrest of criminals in one section and the imprisonment of criminals in another, it would only be a fool who would deduce that it allows for the arrest and imprisonment of criminals.

Your arguments are evasive, dishonest and completely unsubstantiated. Not one of them have made any reference to the text itself. They are very weak indeed. I get the distinct impression that you don't even believe the manure that you're spouting yourself. You're just trying to create as much confusion and ambiguity as possible in the face of a very unambiguous treaty altogether.

Incidentally, are you in the employ of the DoJ or the PD's?

by Reality Check Sat Jul 23, 2005 13:25

Why don't you just tell me the individual case you are going to highlight in advance instead of using an 'I told you so' argument when I use poor phraseology.
If you're really interested in linguistics and interpretation. Have a look at the way Chekov has parsed his information from the agreement to suit his arguments.
The simple fact is that the Irish Examiner article was way over the top. I printed the Dept of Justice response because I thought people might be interested in seeing the full text because most people wouldn't have access to it. I stated exactly what it was and never said it expressed my opinion.

by eeekkk Sat Jul 23, 2005 13:12

Why the word 'ambush'? Curious choice of phrase to use in connection with an internet conversation.

I ask about the words you use s because you are parsing your guarantees in a particularly interesting lawyerly way.

So which will it never happen to - 'Irish Person' or 'Irish Citizen'?

by Reality Check Sat Jul 23, 2005 13:07

Why???
You're not going to try and ambush me, are you?
I think it's also worth pointing out that the agreements reached with the US already exist with all of our EU partners.
It's only the endemic anti-Americanism [Chekov, take a bow] in this country that makes that so much more worrying.

by eeekkkkkk Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:47

Is your term interchangeable with 'Irish Citizen'?

by Reality Check Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:36

You're full of crap Chekov.

Point 1:- Standard extradition is included here. I suppose you're against that. "Assistance" bears no resemblance to "compelling".

Point 2:- This has nothing to do with self-incrimination. You can compel witnesses to attend all you want and still say nothing. This is do with the serving of sub-poenas. US legislation actually has stronger protections against "self-incrimination" than we do.

Point 3:- This allows the presence of outside agents attend at interviews but only where gardai and legal representatives are already there. Again, a suspect is not obliged to say anything. There is absolutely no question that CIA will be coming to Ireland, carrying out arrests and conducting their own interviews. That's what was stated in the Irish Examiner.

Point 4:- This is already standard practice and is only being put on a formal footing. If you knew anything about intelligence operations, you would know that this happens widely and was happening pre 9/11.

Point 5:- Absolute nonsense. You just don't understand what you're reading. You are putting sections together to suit your own purposes.

I would say you're naive only I know that's not the case. Come back to me on the day that a single Irish person is arrested by a US law enforcement agency on Irish soil and I will admit that you were correct.

by Chekov Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:23

REALITY CHECK "· There is no question at all of the CIA interrogating Irish citizens or residents in secret or at all. "

TREATY ARTICLE 5.6. The Requested Party shall, upon request, keep confidential any information
which might indicate that a request has been made or responded to. If the request
cannot be executed without breaching confidentiality, the Requested Party shall so
inform the Requesting Party, which shall then determine the extent to which it wishes
the request to be executed.

i.e. the CIA can ask for a 'request' to be carried out in secret and the Irish state are obliged to do so unless it is impossible to keep it secret. When taken with article 8.3 above ("the Requested Party shall permit the presence of such persons as specified in the request during the execution of the request, and shall allow such persons to ask questions directly") , this treaty explicitly and unambiguously gives the CIA the right to interrogate Irish citizens in secret.

by Still more Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:11

REALITY CHECK: "· There is no provision for the CIA to have access to bank accounts. All such accounts can only be accessed by Gardai at the request of foreign police forces under Mutual Legal Assistance law.and only by Court order."

TREATY (article 9.2) The Requested Party may provide copies of any documents, records, or
information which are in the possession of a government department or agency of that
Party, but which are not publicly available, to the same extent and under the same
conditions as such copies would be available to its own law enforcement or judicial
authorities. The Requested Party may in its discretion deny a request pursuant to this
paragraph entirely or in part.

TREATY (article 16.b.1) Upon request of the Requesting Party, the Requested Party shall, in
accordance with the terms of this Article, promptly ascertain if the banks located in its
territory possess information on whether an identified natural or legal person suspected
of or charged with a criminal offence is the holder of a bank account or accounts. The
Requested Party shall promptly communicate the results of its enquiries to the
Requesting Party.

I think that, at this stage, it's clear that almost every word of RC's contribution is a bare-faced lie. His credibility is zero. It is interesting to see the PD's dealing with the criticism in such a manner - making up a bag full of lies about the contents of the treaty. Very sinister.

by Chekov Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:02

REALITY CHECK: "Joint investigating teams between police forces in no way permit foreign security or police services to interrogate persons in custody in Ireland. Only Gardai can do that. And only Gardai can arrest, detain or question suspects in this state."

TREATY (article 8.3) "In accordance with its laws and practice, the Requested Party shall permit the
presence of such persons as specified in the request during the execution of the request,
and shall allow such persons to ask questions directly of the person whose testimony or
evidence is being taken or indirectly through a legal representative qualified to appear
before the courts of the Requested Party."

by Chekov Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:59

REALITY CHECK: · "There is absolutely no truth in the suggestion that persons will be deprived of the constitutional privilege against self-incrimination.

· Under existing law, the right against self-incrimination is fully protected and it will continue to be under any new law. The existing law is fully set out in Para 3 of the 2nd Schedule of the Criminal Justice Act, 1994. This will not change."

TREATY: Article 8.1.A person in the territory of the Requested Party from whom testimony or
evidence is requested pursuant to this Treaty may be compelled, if necessary, to appear
and testify or produce items, including documents, records, and articles of evidence.

by Chekov Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:47

The fact that this treaty requires legislation renders irrelevant the PD spin doctor's references to the 1994 act et al. If it requires legislation, this means that it includes provisions which are currently illegal and thus pointing out that the claims about the treaty contradict irish law is irrelevant - they are quite open about this.

Furthermore, a very brief perusal of the very first page of the treaty (not including the preamble) is enough to show that 'reality check' is simply lying.

Reality Check: "There is no provision for the transfer of prisoners against their will to the US or anywhere else.(See Sections 53 and 54 of the 1994 Act)."

Page 1. of the treaty text
"2. Assistance shall include:
....
(e) transferring persons in custody for testimony or other purposes;
..."

So, RC, it only takes a reading of page 1 of the treaty text to expose you as a blatant liar. Par for the course for you.

by sovereign citizen Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:27

Dear boys and girls, I am pleased to provide you with a link to the original text of the mutual legal assistance agreement.
http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/vWeb/pcJUSQ6EACY3-ga

Provided courtesy of the Minister's department.

Read it and judge for yourselves.

By the way if you refer to the press release on the signing of the agreement you will find the following interesting snippet:
"Legislation will be required to give effect to some elements of the Mutual Legal Assistance Instrument. The necessary provisions will be contained in the Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Bill which the Minister expects to publish shortly."

http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A02CF/vWeb/pcJUSQ6EAFDG-en

by sovereign citizen Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:19

Hey Mr. Reality, rather than relying on press releases from the spin doctors in the Dept. of Justice, maybe you could provide the authentic and original text of the agreement so that we could read it and decide for ourselves ?
OR IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF DEMOCRACY THAT WE ARE TOO F**KING STUPID TO THINK FOR OURSELVES.

Does anybody know if the text of the agreement is publicly available - OR IS THAT SECRET TOO ?????

If anyone can provide information as to the exact title of the agreement and where the text can be found please post it here.

by an tine bheo Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:14

Ye can do what the men and women of 1916 did while McDowell's grandaddy Eoin McNeill was pissing in his pants and signing countermanding orders.

Rekindle the living flame and reconquer the nation that has been sold into bondage.

Or do ye prefer to graze on like peaceful sheep and cattle while the corrupt political establishment sells ye down the Swanny ?

by Jams O'Donnell Sat Jul 23, 2005 02:19

Trust me, what Duine is going on about is not worth translating. Pick any English comment at random and you've got the translation. Same ol' same ol'...

by Barry Fri Jul 22, 2005 22:54

Probably worth remembering that despite being a legal political organisation in Ireland and Britain , 32CSM are on the US list of terrorist organisations along with Hamas , Hezbollah and Al Qaeda .

Theyre none too pleased with this as can be imagined

http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=1121992651&user=32csm

American agents such as Dave Rupert have operated illegally in the 26 cos with absolutely no complaint from the authorities . Suited and shaded yanks have been spotted standing alongside the Branch monitoring 32csm gatherings as well . Getting a bit like Costa Rica , round these parts .

by Fuse Fri Jul 22, 2005 22:15

I have just read the Irish Examiner's article linked here concerning the CIA's agreed rights to extradite Irish citizens from Ireland to America. I’m quite alarmed about possible human rights abuses through this treaty. For example, how representation overseas would be denied and how civil liberties are being traded off unnecessarily. Is something being done?

by Guido Fri Jul 22, 2005 17:42 Guido at stopimperialism dot be

true or not?
Ireland’s “Justice Minister” has signed an agreement with the US to allow the CIA and other American agencies to interrogate Irish citizens, search and sieze their property and access their confidential bank records, regardless of whether or not what they are accused of or suspected of doing is a crime in Ireland. The Irish government has agreed to keep these activities secret if asked to do so by the US.
Gets denied now:

McDowell:

“There is no question at all of the CIA interrogating Irish citizens or residents in secret or at all,” he said."

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgIl1dKUIWP9csgdL11Zs5FWAE.asp

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=ireland+CIA&btnG=Search+News

by I spy with my little eye Fri Jul 22, 2005 13:34

McDowell refutes CIA interrogation claims
By Harry McGee, Political Editor

JUSTICE Minister Michael McDowell yesterday rejected an assertion that CIA operatives would have the power to come to Ireland to interrogate people in secret.

Full article:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgIl1dKUIWP9csgdL11Zs5FWAE.asp

US treaty - McDowell must resolve Irish concerns
Opinion piece

In his emphatic denial of yesterday's front-page report on the crime-terror treaty between Ireland and the US, Justice Minister Michael McDowell asserted that no American investigator could ask questions directly of an Irish citizen.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/opinion/Full_Story/did-sg-Zl8VyvCa9QsgdL11Zs5FWAE.asp

Invisible, they're horrific. Visible, they're fatal. It starts with a sprinkle of sand, a trail mysteriously laid down. But when the sand is everywhere, you'll know it's not just the wind. The Elementals are around. And soon they will get you, too. Ask th

by Badman Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:49

Or just unsubstantiated assertions from indymedia's very own resident PD PR merchant?

The author of the piece has already rebutted these claims when McDowell made them, as noted above, and all you are doing is repeating the spin without any reference to the text of the agreement itself. Our reality check is as worthless as usual.

by Duine Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:23

A Reality Check,

Ní bréag a scríobhann tú ach fós níl agat ach aon thátál amháin.
Ní docht an comhaontú. Mar sin, d'fhéadfadh tátáil eile teacht chun cinn, fiú amháin an tátál is barrdhona.
Is cuí é a chur os comhair cúirte fá choinne tátál d'acht is d'áirithe.

by Reality Check Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:06

Another scoop for the Irish Examiner - pity the article is absolute horse sh**.
This is a release from the Department of Justice outlining just some of the things the Examiner got ass about face.

Examiner Articles: The Facts

· There is no question at all of the CIA interrogating Irish citizens or residents in secret or at all.

· Nor is there any question of the British MI5 or the French Surete doing so.

· Joint investigating teams between police forces in no way permit foreign security or police services to interrogate persons in custody in Ireland. Only Gardai can do that. And only Gardai can arrest, detain or question suspects in this state.

· All decisions made in respect of questioning suspects are made by Gardai and there is absolutely no legal basis for delegating or transferring or sharing such powers.

· There is absolutely no truth in the suggestion that persons will be deprived of the constitutional privilege against self-incrimination.

· Under existing law, the right against self-incrimination is fully protected and it will continue to be under any new law. The existing law is fully set out in Para 3 of the 2nd Schedule of the Criminal Justice Act, 1994. This will not change.

· There is no provision for the CIA to have access to bank accounts. All such accounts can only be accessed by Gardai at the request of foreign police forces under Mutual Legal Assistance law.and only by Court order.

· There is no provision for the transfer of prisoners against their will to the US or anywhere else.(See Sections 53 and 54 of the 1994 Act).

· No new curtailments or qualifications of any person constitutional rights or liberties or protections are contemplated.

· There is no “Torture Treaty” in contemplation, as alleged.

· The European/US Extradition and Mutual Legal Assistance Agreements were extensively discussed on a number of occasions in the Joint Oireachtas Committee. There has been full consultation. Newspapers journalists were present.

· The Minister strongly condemned the abuse of Guantanamo prisoners in June 2004. The Agreements have nothing to do with Guantanamo and could not result in any person going there or being sent back there.

· The proposals to amend the law on Mutual Legal Assistance have already been referred to the Human Rights Commission some time ago

by shipsea Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:54

Duine
I would love to know what you are saying - any chance that you could translate for people who dont speak Irish?

by Duine Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:31

Is minic nach mbíonn a leithéid de "chomhaontú" bunreachtúil.
B'fhiú do dhream éigin dúshlán a bhunreachtúlacht a thabhairt i gcúirt!

by picket fence Fri Jul 22, 2005 01:25

Join in relevant protests where you can, such as the Rossport 5 demonstrations. Rally people behind that and it will start from there.

by Damien Moran - Dublin Catholic Worker Fri Jul 22, 2005 00:39 ploughsharesireland at yahoo dot ie

.
Michael McDowell refuted claims in today's Irish Examiner that Irish citizens could be interrogated on Irish soil by CIA agents as a result of an agreement signed at Dublin's US Embassy last week.

Background News:

*EU-USA agreements on extradition and mutual legal assistance held up over "written instruments"
June 2003

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2003/jul/08euus.htm

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*Minister signs Bilateral Instruments with the United States on Mutual Legal Assistance and Extradition

http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A02CF/vWeb/pcJUSQ6EAFDG-en
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*Ireland, US agree policing co-operation
July 14th

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0714/crime.html

Audio/Video reports available below article
**********************************************

Below is the link to and full text of today's article:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sg46g7Ks0cvBEsg7OWirIStPSk.asp

*Treaty gives CIA powers over Irish citizens
July 21st
By Dan Buckley

US INVESTIGATORS, including CIA agents, will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil in total secrecy, under an agreement signed between Ireland and the US last week.

Suspects will also have to give testimony and allow property to be searched and seized even if what the suspect is accused of is not a crime in Ireland.

Under 'instruments of agreement' signed last week by Justice Minister Michael McDowell, Ireland and the US pledged mutual co-operation in the investigation of criminal activity. It is primarily designed to assist America's so-called 'war on terror' in the wake of the September 11 atrocities.

The deal was condemned yesterday by the Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL) as "an appalling signal of how the rights of Irish citizens are considered by the minister when engaging in international relations". The ICCL said it appeared to go far beyond even what has been agreed between EU countries.

On signing the agreement, the minister said that "the international community must do everything it can to combat terrorism with every means at its disposal.

"Ireland will not be found wanting," he added.

The treaty will give effect to agreements on Mutual Legal Assistance and Extradition signed by the EU and the US in June 2003. These are aimed at building on mutual assistance and extradition arrangements.

Although the Department of Justice insists that the arrangement merely updates existing agreements, it goes much further. The US may ask Irish authorities:

To track down people in Ireland.

Transfer prisoners in Irish custody to the US.

Carry out searches and seize evidence on behalf of the US Government.

It also allows US authorities access to an Irish suspect's confidential bank information. The Irish authorities must keep all these activities secret if asked to do so by the US.

The person who will request co-operation is US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, the man who, as White House counsel, instigated the notorious 'torture memo' to US President George W Bush which advised how far CIA agents could go in torturing prisoners. The person to whom the request is sent is the Minister for Justice.

About 20,000 immigrants, who have not been charged with any crime, are currently in prison in the US. In two recent US Supreme Court cases, the US Government argued that US citizens could be imprisoned indefinitely without charge if the president designated them as "enemy combatants".

ICCL director Aisling Reidy said: "An extraordinary aspect to this treaty is, despite its scope and its potential to violate basic constitutional and human rights, that all this happened without debate or transparency.

"To agree to give such powers to a government which has allowed detention of its own citizens without access to a lawyer for over a year, which has legitimised Guantanamo Bay and the interrogation techniques there, without public debate, is an appalling signal of how highly or not
the rights of Irish citizens are considered by the minister when engaging in international relations."

The Department of Justice said it was wrong to say the treaty happened without debate, as the agreements update and supplement existing arrangements, and the EU-US agreement has been scrutinised by the Oireachtas four times since December 2002.

A spokesperson also rejected that the measures go beyond what was agreed between EU countries.

Legislation will be required to give effect to some elements of the Mutual Legal Assistance Instrument. The necessary provisions will be contained in the Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Bill which Mr McDowell expects to publish shortly.


Responses:

McDowell says Irish Examiner claims are false

See Audio/Video reports available below article
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0721/crime.html
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IHRC to examine US-Irish deal on crime
July 21st

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0721/crime.html
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As Mike Cunningham, a former director of Statoil Exploration (Ireland), commented on successive Irish government's selling-out natural resources to corporations, “No other country in the world has given such favourable terms as Ireland.”

Going by this agreement Bertie, Brian, Willie, and Michael certainly have their eyes set on the US 'War On Terror' Gold Medal.

********************************************
Latest:

McDowell plays down US powers in new treaty

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=150236094&p=y5xz368xx

Michael's Extraordinarily happy about his new buddies

by mark Fri Jul 22, 2005 00:01

These things continue to slip by as Irish people in general take (at most) a passing interest. It is systemic at this stage; from the use of Shannon Airport as an active part of an international, criminal assault, to the abuse and breach of the Constitutionalrights of Mayo farmers to the inviolability of their homes in the form of a threat to their and their families safety by a multi-national corporation. Now we are seeing a breach, not only of the sovereignty of the state, but a breach of the ultimate sovereignty which rests in the people.
Despite what the Minister thinks, we are not his nor any other politicians subjects, they are the servants of the people and the state.
It feels like we are subject to decree on both a national level and international, we are marginalised and left feeling helpless. What can we do when our voices and actions are ignored and few choose to join in where they feel no direct involvment?
M.

by eeekkkk Thu Jul 21, 2005 23:49

http://www.avalon5.com/index.php/archives/168
"I received the following information from my wife in the email this morning, and as she said herself, I’m so angry I’m breathless, if not speechless, at the absolute insanity of this situation. The following is an extract from a local Irish Newspaper - and there are many such articles covering this story online anyway at this point - which has raised my eyebrows, got me mad as hell and will probably end up getting me into trouble with either the local fuckwits (AKA Government/Politicians) or the foreign fascists (AKA Yanks on tour). Essentially an agreement has been signed between the Irish Governement and the USA, allowing the freakin CIA to interrogate Irish citizens in secrecy, with no oversight. This also provides for the freezing of assets, the torturing of said citizens and worst of all, for all of this to take place on Irish soil, in secrecy!!! In exactly what fucked up universe does this make sense to anyone?"

http://www.bananarepublic.nu/errant/?postid=49
"On this evening's The Last Word, the supposed author of today's Irish Examiner article, one John More (or Moore?) has stuck by his interpretation of the agreement between Uncle Sham and de Banana Regime signed last week by our glorious Minister for Injustice, Herr McDowell. Furthermore, Mr. More has stated that Minister McDowell has misinterpreted the agreement, and is in effect totally out of order in criticising the article. Mr. More also pointed out that, unlike the Minister, he is a qualified lawyer in both jurisdictions."

by St Patricks Brigade Thu Jul 21, 2005 21:20

I strongly urge that all Irish Citizens totally reject this legislation - this is a gross violation of our rights.

I urge all Irish people to kick this FASCIST government out.

Mc Dowell is a war Criminal
Bush is a war Criminal
Blair is a war Criminal


The first Irish person to be detained by the CIA, I personally will take up arms against the USA

by Duine Thu Jul 21, 2005 20:17

Ó bhó!!!!

Muna bhfuil na hIodáiligh cúramach, marófar duine eile den rúnsheirbhís ag arm fuascailte na meiriceánach!

by eeekkkk Thu Jul 21, 2005 19:48

"ROME - In a case testing Italian-U.S. relations, a Milan prosecutor sought arrest warrants Wednesday for six more purported CIA operatives, accusing them of helping plan the kidnapping of an Egyptian radical Muslim cleric.

An Italian court has already issued warrants for 13 purported CIA officials accused of helping carry out Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr's 2003 abduction.

But the court initially turned down a request to issue arrest warrants for the six who prosecutor Armando Spataro says helped plan the abduction.

The court is expected to rule in the next few days on his appeal, Spataro said. "

by Duine Thu Jul 21, 2005 19:34

An bhfuil mé anois, nó an raibh mé riamh i mo bhall den Phairtí Cumannach / Ail Ceíde / dream liobrálach / dream agóideach / ceardchumann / na gasóga.........???

by eeekkkkk Thu Jul 21, 2005 19:34

http://www.bananarepublic.nu/errant/?postid=48
Herr McDowell has just classed the article in today's Irish Examiner outlining the agreement he has signed with Uncle Sham as "complete drivel", and suggested that those responsible should go back to writing in college magazines.

http://www.planetoftheblogs.com/?start=60
Much comment has been made regarding the agreement between the US and Ireland to facilitate extradition and associated procedures with a view to better fighting the War on Terror. Characterizations of the agreement as giving the CIA a free hand in Ireland, rampant on Irish blogs and beyond, are far off the mark. The facts of the matter are straightforward. The consent of the Irish government is needed to proceed with an investigation, as anyone who's read the document knows. It's right here.

http://irish.typepad.com/irisheyes/2005/07/mcdowell_curtai.html
"The Irish government has graciously extended the long arm of the State beyond even what has been agreed between EU countries. You have more civil rights if you torch a neighbour's car, sell child porn on the internet, or smack down a drunk after a match than you do if you end up as part of a Homeland Security Watch List. You can be pulled out of bed and even flown away to an outsourced interrogation centre if Minister McDowell initials the briefing file. And as we know from previous stories, the time-pressed minister often pencil whips approvals without reading the case files in front of him. As an American who willingly lives in Ireland, I can go with the flow of things. But I am very surprised by the lack of debate on this issue and the willing negation of the democratic process. This erosion of civil liberties smacks of the same attitude shown by slave traders who were out to strike the best deal for their load of human cargo. I cannot believe an appointed minister can give over citizen rights with this closed door maneuver. It is unjustified and unprecedented.

by eeekkkkk Thu Jul 21, 2005 19:21

http://www.politics.ie/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6763