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Thursday May 26, 2005 20:50
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Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25Shut it!
Armed blaggers at post office, challanged by rozzers, gunman refuses to disarm. You don't wait to be shot - you shoot.
A few more incidents like this and indymedia fans will be safer when collecting welfare payments....
Dont cry for them. they were career criminals and wouldnt think twice about putting a bullet in any of us.
But sure, any excuse to condemn the Gardai. Wouldnt the world be better off without them? maybe it should be Gardai that were shot, would that make you happy? And before you condemn, ask yourself some questions, would you have the balls to put yourself in the line of fire? and what would you have done? and why is it wrong for the Gardai to have more numbers?
Personally if I was in that situation and I HAD to shoot (and the garda probably HAD to shoot) I would have shot to disable the person. It seems incredible that every time the gardai go out with guns and use them they are not capable of disabling the target. Even Al must admit there is something gone wrong when a garda kills two raiders with one gun between them.
At least they weren't handing out leaflets...
Have you ever shot a moving target? have you ever shot a moving target when that target is pointing a gun at you? Its not as easy as people think it is. Either that or the Gardai are the only people in this country that arent navy seal trained marksmen.
"Personally if I was in that situation and I HAD to shoot ... I would have shot to disable the person. It seems incredible that every time the gardai go out with guns and use them they are not capable of disabling the target"
That is not what they are trained to do. They are trained to aim for the centre of the biggest part of the target, the torso, it is to cut down on stray gunfire. This means the person who is being shot at is going to take a few mp5 rounds to the chest.
Take for xample the case of Ronan MacLochlainn . He was shot in thr back . Actually he had his entire front chest blown out by enthusiastic gardai . At that time the RIRA were working under an army order of no return fire .
ah the guards, what would we do without them .
While fairly flexible on whether it was two dead Gardaí or two dead raiders, makes little difference to me, both sides are guilty of assumptions.
Leftists assume every Garda killing must be a shoot-to-kill operation where bloodthirsty Gardaí murdered a helpless victim of the capitalist system.
The supporters of the Gardaí claim they are the thin blue line, acted in self-defence and protected the community by killing two people preying on it.
What is interesting is how the story has changed. At first, Gardaí and media were claiming an 'exchange of gunfire' had taken place.
By lunchtime Paul Reynolds was telling RTE news that the raiders had not had time to 'draw or aim' their gun, and for the first time revealed that there might only have been one gun.
Now it turns out according to today's Irish Times that one of the raiders did have time to draw, aim, ignore shouts to drop his weapon before being shot. The second raider attempted to 'rush' the ERU officer.
Could they have fired disabling shots? Probably not, as Al pointed out disabling shots are far harder than movies make them seem. And if you miss a disabling shot the opponent has time to return fire putting yourself or others at risk. ERU officers are trained to fire into the middle mass of their target and put him or her down.
I don't know what happened in Lusk yesterday. Nor does anyone who was there and probably not many people who were there.
The Gardaí are perfectly capable of shooting someone in a justified manner as there was no other choice. They've done it before.
Likewise they're equally capable of indiscriminate shooting, cover-ups, deliberate shooting of raiders for PR. They've done all that before.
A proper independent investigation, Guards inverstigating Guards is pointless, could arrive at the truth of the situation and see the Gardaí, or its critics, vindicated.
from the Gardai.The sooner the criminals realise that there is now a better chance of being shot ona raid,the sooner the crime rate will start dropping.An improvement would be to put a bounty on each criminals head that could be claimed on anyone who kills one of them whilst they are involved in a crime!
As usual the only ones crying for the bad guys are the whiners,of the Red/ Liberal/Amenesty international crowd.Funny you never of THEM when somone innocent of the normal law abiding majority gets murderd,robbed or kidnapped by the scum of society
the right to bear arms is not a right Europeans have or cherish, it is indeed one of the primary differences between us and our atlantic cousins the US and Canadians who have very dissimilar societies resulting from that right, one considered to be excessively violent the other excessively bland.
Rather we in Europe have progressively in the interest of social order seen that right proscribed, and generally only the police or security forces are allowed to carry fire-arms, placing a most serious bourden of responsibility on them, and giving them an unfair advantage in any conflict situation where they might not respond in an appropriate ethical way.
It is odd, that this week as we reflect on the death of Carlo, we see two men shot in Ireland by members of the Gardaí, who now must live with the certain knowledge that they have killed fellow men, as a result of their work, their job at a point when either their duty is exceeded and their acts take on those of an arbitrary executioner or at a point that they have used a weapon (their job has given them) in their self-defense.
I wonder do they or their colleagues think it was worth it?
I am of the opinion that fire-arm training is not sufficient, and that those who carry these weapons are not taught properly how to use them in a non-lethal way, firing at limbs rather than body, and that proper awareness of the capability of blunt trauma protection wear to protect a Garda from an assailants bullet is not practically made use of. Rather we have a situation where killing occurs in *hot* rather than cold blood.
Yes, it is difficult to shoot a moving target,
Yes, it is easy to kill someone with a gun.
At which point the target becomes a life taken.
anyway-
Amnesty International has called for an independent investigation into the shooting dead by gardaí of two men, one of whom was unarmed, as they tried to rob a post office in Lusk, Co Dublin.
"Take for xample the case of Ronan MacLochlainn . He was shot in thr back . Actually he had his entire front chest blown out by enthusiastic gardai . At that time the RIRA were working under an army order of no return fire .
ah the guards, what would we do without them ." - Shut up Barry, your talking about an IRA murderere for gods sake. Dont return fire? Tell widow McCabe you dont fire at Gardai.
"While fairly flexible on whether it was two dead Gardaí or two dead raiders, makes little difference to me, both sides are guilty of assumptions." - whats your full name Janus? I will make sure not too bother my arse if you ever need our help.
"Likewise they're equally capable of indiscriminate shooting, cover-ups, deliberate shooting of raiders for PR. They've done all that before." v- Proof please, times and specific events.
"A proper independent investigation, Guards inverstigating Guards is pointless, could arrive at the truth of the situation and see the Gardaí, or its critics, vindicated." - Guards investigating guards is exactly how Gardai are losing their jobs at the moment. THe difference between a Guard investiogating or an independent is a guard undeerrstands the situation. What type of independent are you thinking? Would the likes of the FBI or similar be enough or does it have to be a civilian with no training or experience in law enforcement?
"I am of the opinion that fire-arm training is not sufficient, and that those who carry these weapons are not taught properly how to use them in a non-lethal way, firing at limbs rather than body, and that proper awareness of the capability of blunt trauma protection wear to protect a Garda from an assailants bullet is not practically made use of." - What is this based on? Have you undergone the fire-arms training within the Gardai? Have you invented a bullet proof vest for your face?
Its plain and simple, if you point a gun at any person regardless of Garda or not you accept the consequences. the consequences usually means death. Thats the way it should be. Stop crying about these guys, they would kill any one of you if you stood in their way.
Did anyone listen to Adrian Kennedy last night? His cousin was on moaning because robbing banks was his job, "ah sure he was only getting a few bob" was her defence.
These people ran into a closed area i.e; a post office, with a frigggin shotgun. These people had criminal records, and were prepared to brandish dangerous weapons in what otherwise is a peaceful, quiet post office.With old people. Possibly mothers and children there as well.
Shotguns are very dangerous, they spray fatal pellets, they just don't target one person.Illegal held firearms are known to be precarious, and could go off on a hairsbreath.
Don't think for one minute any of these scumbags give a friggin shit about these things.
Thus, live by the sword, etc. Yet for some reason, people on this thread seem to be saying that the Gardai are the bad guys in this situation!
Well cry me a fucking river. It seems those with hard left sympathies are condstantly looking for any excuse to start wimpering.
This latest bleating makes me sick. Fuck off losers. Either that, or walk into one of those mangy pubs frequented by crims and hand out your black bloc leaflets. I'm sure they'll be 'right on' with that.
As a citizen, I have always had questions about certain Garda actions, both regarding the structure of the force ( i.e; lack of a proper ombudsman) and individual Gardai ( Donegal corruption, incidents of police brutality).This, of course, is one of many examples of problems faced by police forces through out the world.
Nonetheless, I wish to thank the Grdai involved in yesterdays incident. I feel no pity for skangers and chav scum that brandish potentiallly unstable weapons in a family enviornment in the name of greed.
One would like to think that other cesspool life forms might learn from yesterdays events that waving guns at people because you don't believe in honest living is a sure path to disaster. The likelyhood is that they won't.
Again, thanks to the Gardai yesterday that did their job and did it well. Stay safe, lads.
You a Garda?Sometimes members of tthe force piss me off, but yesterday's events are to be vindicated in my eyes. You've read my pervious comments?Just to say to you in a personal context;
Kudos!
Not all of us that lean a wee bit left at times are of the same boneheaded mentality as the posters above.
Tonight at the pub I'm gonna buy a pint and pour it out the door, so that the spirit of that pint brings both yourself and those Gardai at Lusk some cheer.
Slainte, a chara, agus Gior raibh a maith agut.
was it not possible to spare the life of the unarmed raider? i assume it was he who 'rushed' the gardaí... wasnt a non-lethal solution available?
Jeff,
Wasting beer like that should be a crime! I wasnt there so I dont deserve credit for their actions but Im sure at some stage tonight I will have to breakup 6 or 7 fights and save some poor git from a right kicking. IN relation to your comments against teh Gardai, no one is denying that such things on occasion happen but the point I try to make is we dont like those officers anymore than you do. The fear I have about ombudsmen is that they have no training or experience in our jobs and therefore it really is just a case of Joe Soap being handed power and told "Go get em".
You tell me Donald, was there? And what was it?
In relation to ombudsmen, yes, it is possible that ordinary Gardai will feel that a 'joe soap' will judge them out of context. What about a panel that includes say a senior Garda, as well as barristers, soliciters, crime victims advocates and the erm, 'usual suspects' i.e Vincent Browne types?
I reckon we will come to a solution on this one.
In the meantime good luck with work tonight and the other variety of muppets you come across outside of this thread.
As said before, I have had problems regarding the actions of individual Gardai. Sometimes I even have problems with aspects of the law, and break the law by smoking cannabis!(Scrreeech!)
Nonetheless, it is oft a thankless task you and your buddies perform.
No one on indymedia threads will ever stop to consider the possibility of how individual Gardai react to the aftermath of crime scenes like, God, rape,murder, or the poor men and and women in Harcourt that have to look at internet depravity involving kids.
How youse remain sane at time, I don't know. I'm even getting sad just thinking about it.
It is oft a thankless task, so good luck tonight, I hope you'll only have to be talking sense to a few young fellas, and then home to bed.Thanks again Al, and good luck.
it was an honest question. but i presently assume there was another way. a baton for example. Im just asking so that i can be told otherwise and go away feeling better about the situation because while i accept that u lot have a difficult job to do and do it well most of the time, i dont believe an unarmed raider should be shot for rushing a garda.
Good to see you back it's been a while. Missed your logical contributions.
["While fairly flexible on whether it was two dead Gardaí or two dead raiders, makes little difference to me, both sides are guilty of assumptions." - whats your full name Janus? I will make sure not too bother my arse if you ever need our help.]
Isn't Al a beaut? Do you reckon over the next while he will be asking before he does his duty. Hello is your name Janus? Is your name Betty. On holidays this week Al - you've a very busy boy here. Take a break, spend some quality time with that daughter of yours - your becoming a bit Indy obsessive.
Busy, busy Al
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I know that Donald but if you believe there was an alternative then tell us what is is. A baton would not be logical since the men were armed.
Betty,
You seem to be one obsessed not me. Now are you here to contribute your thoughts or just follow me?
the other was not... wouldnt it be logical to use a baton against the second, unarmed man? i thought the suggestion was clear.
The second man was armed with a sledge hammer, you can still kill with a sledge hammer and as far as i know they dont issue batons to eru units
And having seen the ERU in action before i have total confidence in their ability...
There were 2 precise gunshots to the torsoe (where youre trained to hit) and from automatic weapons like mp5s like the gardai were using thats got to be difficult.
I seriously respect those guys and (nearly) all members of the force for a great job.
but if what you say is true think i think someone should point out the mistakes in the original message:
"There are two men dead and they found only one weapon".
" They will be commended for ... shooting dead an unarmed man".
can u confirm these statements were untrue?
Anyone read the papers yesterday and today? I believe it is explained in full. CCTV will eventually (once court cases are finished) be released.
the officer took the only action he could. 98% (RTE) of the population agree.
Only good old Joe disagrees.