The game is over . . . and the unionists have won

by Sherlock Holmes Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:18

Rooster your childish attitude is astonishing. First of all you started this thread by calling the troubles and resultant peace process as a game. This shows this abysmal attitude you and your ilk have for not only the peace process but the preceeding killings. Then you went on to talk about the "good old days" words which republicans would never use for the troubles, but which unionists frequently talk about when dreaming about mass discrimination of catholics. You are more naive then i thought if you think the "Union" is safe. A process has been set in place which will lead to a united Ireland. Perhaps you should take that wonderfull unionist Conor Cruise O'Briens advice and try and get yourselfs the best possible deal in a united Ireland instead of delaying an inevitable reunification. Oh and by the way, get your ilk to stop attacking immigrants or are you all just addicted to discrimination and violent attacks on minorities.

by rooster Wed Mar 02, 2005 09:16

If your trying to rekindle the good old days and breath some new life into the armed struggle, forget it, the movement is dead, the people have seen you for what you are.
Murdering thieving hostage taking raping gun smuggling savages.

Promising the people to rid the island of the brits but bringing nothing but shame and suffering.
All these incidents your talking about happened decades ago, move on.

by Barry Wed Mar 02, 2005 08:45

The murderers, including Wesley Somerville and Harris Boyle were serving UDR members. They were in UDR uniform, armed with UDR weapons.Are you suggesting they were only doing unpaid overtime so it doesnt really count?

Throughout that period the British Army made clear that membership of a loyalist paramilitary grouping would not disbar anyone from joining the UDR. In fact it was perfectly legal to be a member of the UDA up until 1988.


As for Devil Dog, in 1987 Miceal Carragher was about 15 years of age. If a foreign army occupied your area, and murdered your brother in cold blood beside you, as well as shooting yourself I believe the incentive to hit back at them would be a fairly strong one.

Miceal Carragher had more right to be patrolling Soth Armagh with a rifle than the foreign dogs who murdered his brother.

by Rooster Wed Mar 02, 2005 02:48

"Can somebody tell me the name of the show band that were killed after being stopped by UDR men in uniform?"


And it was'nt a UDR patrol, it was murdering loyalist terrorists who murdered the show band and so can't be pinned on the UDR.

by Sherlock Holmes Tue Mar 01, 2005 16:45

I will Devil Dog if you retake History lessons. This time skip the revisionism.

by Devil Dog Tue Mar 01, 2005 16:06

Carraher was a volunteer Barry, a fact which was also conveniently withheld at the time of his death.

His brother was lucky he was arrested in 1997 - if he'd been caught by the Hereford boys with a barret in 1987, missing a lung would have been the least of his problems.

Holmesie, can you please go back and retake English 10 as your butchering of it is giving me the heebie jeebies.

by Sherlock Holmes Tue Mar 01, 2005 13:14

What do you have to say about that rooster? or is their deaths irrelevant to you because they were catholics?

by barry Tue Mar 01, 2005 13:02

As were 2 gaa supporters travelling home through s armagh in the early 70s who had the misfortune to encounter one of their checkpoints outside newtownhamilton. Both men were left dead at the roadside.

. A nationalist councillor from fermanagh by the name of kelly was also murdered and disappeared at a vcp. his body was found weighed down in a lake weeks later. A prominent Unionist politician is strongly suspected of involvement.

During the 80s/90s at least 2 men were killed in the dead of night at the roadside, were again it is believed they had been stopped at checkpoints. Fearghal Carraher was also murdered in front of his neighbours by royal marines at one of their checkpoints, and his brother badly wounded.

by eeekkkk Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:56

robert ballagh made a piece of art about it from a glass covered publicity photo of them.

Don't quote me on this as i'm not 100% sure

by Sherlock Holmes Tue Mar 01, 2005 09:48

Can somebody tell me the name of the show band that were killed after being stopped by UDR men in uniform?

by Rooster Mon Feb 28, 2005 22:15

Unionist terrorists
by Def Leppard
Unionists did go out shooting nationalists. They were called the UDR and RUC and they had a licence to kill.


-its a cheap provo trick to try to paint the RUC or UDR as terrorists, they wore uniforms, the terrorists don't, they walk the streets openly and not hiding behind masks (like terrorists do) in the vast majority of cases they only opened fire as a last resort or because they were under attack.
To say that they "went out killing catholics" is sensationalist crap, if they went out EVERY DAY to kill catholics there would have been tens of thousands of catholics killed.
I can just picture the scene now at a VCP, "hello sir, can I see your driving license"
"yes certainly"
"I see your name is Padraig, sir"
"yes I'm on my way to mass"
BANG BANG BANG!!!!!
Did that ever happen?
No!

by barry Sat Feb 26, 2005 03:52

Following the murder of 6 innocent catolics in a pub in loughinisland in the 90s, the local Unionist MP anddeputy party leader, John Taylor, declared that it was a good thing, and a positive development, as the catholic community would know what it was like to suffer the way he claimed unionists had.

The day the paramilitary umbrella group the CLMC announced its ceasefire, Gusty Spence declared the "union is safe". That means they support the union with the UK. They are unionists. Would anyone describe the SDLP as republicans ? Daniel OConnell and William Martin Murphy were nationalists, but utterly opposed to republicanism in any form.

by Def Leppard Sat Feb 26, 2005 02:03

Unionists did go out shooting nationalists. They were called the UDR and RUC and they had a licence to kill. Dont forget scum like Jeffrey Donaldson and Ken Maginnis were all members of this abomination (UDR). The DUP were among the founders of Ulster Resistance. Were they peaceniks or was it only on days ending with the letter Y that they killed catholics?

by rooster Fri Feb 25, 2005 18:58

Sherlock Holmes Thursday, Feb 24 2005, 1:34pm

Rooster the equality agenda has been systematically opposed by Unionists not republicans or Nationalists.
-thats because the "equality agenda" as you call it is one sided positive discrimination.

and its harping back to the "good old days" of gerrymandered unionist rule in the North. Those days are over, get over it.
-well I was born in 1976, so I would'nt know about the "good old days"

After the elections you will watch as a deal between Sinn Fein and the DUP will be made.
-sin feinn are untouchable, they could'nt make a deal with Trimbles UUP so why do you think Paisleys DUP will become some bastion of liberalism?

by Sherlock Holmes Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:02

You people are pathetic. Unionist paramilitaries are what they are. Call the IRA Nationalist terrorists if you want what do i care. You people have absolutely no concept of discrimination. Male, middle class and white, sheltered individuals. If you were discriminated against, burnt out of your homes, attacked by the RUC or British army, or had seen the results of a recent unionist paramilitary attack where they smashed a brick in the face of a pregnant african women, what would you do then. Perhaps then you would understand a little. What about the discrimination faced by people in the south. What have you done to campaign for peoples rights down where you live. I'll bet absolutely nothing. Come back to me when you have done something of value or helped people fight for their rights. devil dog and jeff you two are pathetic apologists for state discrimination, unionist terrorism and brutal racism

by Barry Thu Feb 24, 2005 23:56

And we have the sinn fein leadership and the f*****g peace-process to thank for that. The reason why we have the DUP and the shinners as the primary parties in the north is largely because the GFA has institutionalised sectarianism.

What is really annoying about the current stance by the political establishments surrounding sinn fein is their utter hypocrisy.

Provo thuggery was perfectly fine by them up until a few weeks ago. In fact it was welcomed and encouraged by both the British and free-state establishments as it was actively inhibiting debate and dissent within republican working class areas. Sinn fein were often complimented for keeping the republican base firmly in line. They did not accomplish this by writing thoughtful letters to the Irish news. They all knew what was going on within nationalist areas and they supported it.

Within my own family for example, my elderly father, a lifelong republican and founding member of the provisionals was brutally assaulted by a ceasefire soldier, while the rest of his cronies looked on. My brother was abducted beaten and tortured untill he passed out with the pain. I have had my life threatened on numerous occasions, and was told recently by a friend in sinn fein im lucky to still be walking around.

Where was all this concern for decency and human rights when Joe OConnor was murdered in broad daylight in front of his family ? Where were these politicians when Anthony McIntyre and Tommy Gormans homes were besieged for weeks on end and 100s of Provos patrolled the surrounding streets ? And the same thing happened only a few months back in Rathenraw housing estate. The actual killers of Robert McCartney were prominent amongst those patrolling that area and telling local republicans to support the GFA or theyd be killed. The establishment actually welcomed and encouraged this facism for years, and by doing so they are as much responsible for the events in Short Strand as Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness . No-one ordered Robert McCartneys murder, but the establishment have encouraged those who carried it out to behave like facist enforcers in their own communities, and to silence anyone who criticises them for doing so.
Last year even Denis Bradley from the PSNI policing board called on the provos to take action against 32csm members in Derry and NO-ONE criticised him for doing so. No one saw anything intrinsically wrong with a policing board chief calling upon masked thugs to go out on the streets and do whatever necessary to silence political dissidents.

The murder machine they complain loudly about now is as much a creation of the establishment whose short term interests it served, as it is of Connolly House. It was acting in the most savage manner imaginable for years, and the establishment stance today is nothing only political opportunism.

by jeff Thu Feb 24, 2005 19:40 womackdoor at yahoo dot com

Unionists did not go out shooting Catholics, etc, it was Loyalist terrorists. Yes, I know, the British Army was also out shooting people.

One should remember though, the distinction between Unionist and Loyalist, as there is between Nationalist and Republican. It is only new speak, but for reason of verbal utilisation, these are the terms used.

I find it interesting the way when Republicans are called to task for the actions of the IRA, they never give an answer. Instead they go "What about what so and so did?What about Basra today in Iraq?" A sly and underhand way of making the questioner feel ' Ooops, I'd better answer this, I don't want people to think I think shooting Catholics, or blowing up Basra is a good thing.'

Yep, such an attitude really instills confidence on my part in Sinn Fein. Thanks for pointing that out. The Ra are lovely people. I used to love the way the Ra supporters I have met throughout my life always resort to some form of intimidation if you don't sound like you are agreeing with them.

Another question likely to be raised is why the majorety of Catholics voted Sinn Fein in the last assembly elections? Why did Protestants vote DUP?Are Catholics then to be thought of as those who uncompromisingly adhere to republican principles of a 32 county socialist republic? Are all protestants to be thought of as bible thumping scripture quoting maniacs?

Or are there more subtle forces at work, like grassroots activism on both sides, engaging the voter, the respective voters voting because of a combination of fear, and irritation at the sluggish performance of the peace process?

Perhaps I should not have any opinion because I'm from the south. Either way, I'm not expecting reasonable debate, judging from other threads ( Apparantly, I'm a quisling, because a very clever chap called Seamus was even clever enough to post a picture of a tacky looking puppet. Great ruse, man, you must have loads of trophys for debating when you were in primary school-or did you just win because judges were presented with the alternative option of being engaged with the wrong end of a baseball bat?)

Justice for Robert McCarthy. Put the heads of the murdering scumbags who killed that man on spikes. May the cancer they bring into their community revisit them one thousand fold. Rapists and murderers, bullies and cowards, soon they will be in Hell with Cromwell!

Death threats, etc, can be sent to the above e mail addy. Slainte!

by jay Thu Feb 24, 2005 19:28

I suppose they are more correctly described as Nationalists. To call them Republicans suggests they are a lot more prinicipled, and embracing of differences. Liberte, Fraternite, Egalite...

by Devil Dog Thu Feb 24, 2005 18:57

Should have been Col Moran.....

by Devil Dog aka Col Sebastian Holmes Thu Feb 24, 2005 18:56

I think you mean "Loyalist Paramilitaries"....or how would you feel if the IRA were referred to as "Nationalist terrorists"?

by Sherlock Holmes Thu Feb 24, 2005 18:05

So unionist paramilities never went on indiscriminate bombings and murders. So the dublin/monoghan bombings and the shankill butchers are what exactly in your eyes. What about catholics being burnt out of their homes or catholic taxi drivers being indiscriminately killed. Also now the unionist paramilitaries have turned to attacking immigrants, physically assaulting them and trying to force them out of areas. Repeating the tactics used against catholics.

by Mad Ollie Thu Feb 24, 2005 17:58

The political process, which is only one part of it, is in a bit of bother at the moment.

For those of you far south of the border you may think that the PP is all about politicians and structures and agreements but the truth is that for those of us on the ground working every day on peace projects the process is alive and well.
People are talking to each other and going to places where it was never safe before, individuals and communities are availing of training and work opportunities that are helping to empower theri communities.

The current kerfuffle is far removed from the day to day concerns of most ordinary people, so what if a bank got robbed, the fuckers are always robbing the rest of us.

Right enough its about time that the scumbag peacetime soldiers of the IRA and other paramilitary groups were sorted out by either their own or the police, but the main point is, the peace process is far bigger than the political process, and its still working.

by SDR Thu Feb 24, 2005 17:32

Re: "I'm sick of narrow-minded unionists posing as republicans on this site"

Sorry, we couldn't find any broad-minded ones.

by jeff Thu Feb 24, 2005 17:25

It will be that bit harder for the 'yin-yin-ists' to get them though, considering they don't have a history of punishment beatings, indiscriminate bombing, etc, behind them. Rooster, have you any ideas how the really good name of the SDLP will be blackened? Perhaps the DUP will quote scripture when they get round to condemning the SDLP. If they do, internagtional investment, the oecd, EU officials etc, will definatly agree wioth them like.

Poor oul' Sinn Fein /IRA.

I wonder what that murdered father from Short Strand, Robert McCarthy, thinks of all this?

by Séamus Thu Feb 24, 2005 17:20

The above post hjas just convicted Phil Flynn (who, astute observers agree, has been innocently caught up in all of this) and, incidentally, the same man said in an interview last week that he disagrees with SF policy.

By the way, I'm sick of narrow-minded unionists posing as republicans on this site.

by RS Thu Feb 24, 2005 16:04

"After all the nationalist community's complaining about discrimination against them it is that same community that has failed to rise to the challenge of partnership government and equality. "

Phil Flynn has been shown to be a model of rising to the challenge of partnership.
Who else could introduce capitalist scum like moneylenders and the head of the police authority to lucrative money making deals.
Sinn Fein's problem is that in its quest for power it has forgotten its roots and betrayed the working class republican community.
In fact so bad has it got that it now resorting to stabbing it in the chest instead of in the back.

by Newly informed Thu Feb 24, 2005 14:50

Thanks for the info Rooster. I have now come to realise that its all republicans and nationalists fault. It's not that Unionists didn't want to share power. They just didn't want to share it with nationalist/republican leaders. It wasn't that the Unionists be it under Trimble or Paisley consistently scuppered deals or collapsed the assembly it was that republicans and nationalists didn't deserve the agreement to work. I also now know that Unionists are completely in favour of the equality agenda, but repubicans and nationalists don't deserve it. Thank you rooster you have made everything so clear to me. Unrepentant bigots still hold the line in Unionism today and are unwilling to either share power or bring about equality in the North.

by Sherlock Holmes Thu Feb 24, 2005 14:34

Rooster the equality agenda has been systematically opposed by Unionists not republicans or Nationalists. That is universally recognised by people and NGO's from across Ireland and the UK. As for the unionists winning the game you are just showing yourself up as having blinkered vision. Sinn Feins vote will grow again in the next election, none of the current pressure will prevent that. It is a Unionist dream if you think republicans can be ignored and sidelined and its harping back to the "good old days" of gerrymandered unionist rule in the North. Those days are over, get over it. After the elections you will watch as a deal between Sinn Fein and the DUP will be made. Sinn Fein as a political force are here to stay, and nothing the establishment can do will prevent that.

by Rooster Thu Feb 24, 2005 14:07

After all the nationalist community's complaining about discrimination against them it is that same community that has failed to rise to the challenge of partnership government and equality. The only obstacle now to full citizenship rights for nationalists is their own preference for being led by a delinquent (perhaps that should read criminal) party.