Another revolution in Ukraine?

by redjade Tue Nov 23, 2004 20:49

Righteous pragmatist, you got me thinking....

Recently I had the honour of having a conversation with a Hungarian Historian, in an 'Irish Pub' in Budapest actually, about the bad old days of authoritarian Socialism and the last days of the Soviet Union.

He reminded me of a fact that I forgotten, George H.W. Bush, Sr strived desperately to hold the USSR together during its last weeks and days.

Daddy Bush on August 1st, 1991, just 23 days before Ukraine declared full independence, in a speech to the USSR's Supreme Soviet of the Republic of Ukraine pleaded with reformers to *not* break off from the Soviet Union and to stay the course with Gorbachev.

President Daddy Bush, former Director of the CIA, preferred a Union of Soviet Socialist Republics to an independent Ukraine - and made veiled economic threats to Ukrainian reformers if they should break away from Soviet rule.

Perhaps this shouldn't be too surprising considering Daddy Bush's tepid condemnation of the Tiananmen Square Massacre in Communist China.

The Hungarian Historian I mentioned referred to this historical moment as a lost opportunity. He believed that if Daddy Bush really had the freedom and independence of people under Soviet Rule in mind he would have pushed for more independence for other captive nations. It was possible that the USSR would have broken into smaller pieces, as there were (and still are in Russia) many independence movements growing at the time.

And, the fact that Daddy Bush did not speak for these people's freedoms is only evidence of America's true geo-political intentions in the region, even today.

It is also interesting to note who helped to write Daddy Bush's speech - later to be referred to as the 'Chicken Kiev speech' - none other than the famed Sovietologist herself, Condalezza Rice.

Past is prologue and beware of unemployed Sovietologists!

- - -

Speech by Comrade George H. W. Bush (August 1st, 1991):

''Yet freedom is not the same as independence.
Americans will not support those who seek
independence in order to replace a far-off
tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aid
those who promote a suicidal nationalism based
upon ethnic hatred.
[....]
And now, democracy has
begun to set firm roots in Soviet soil.
[....]
The peoples of the U.S.S.R. have entered a great
enterprise, full of courage and vigor. I have
come here today to say: We support those who
explore the frontiers of freedom. We will join
these reformers on the path to what we call --
appropriately call a new world order.''

Full Text:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=19864&st=&st1=

by Ed Tue Nov 23, 2004 22:20

Another 'Sovietologist' you may consider is former NSA Brzezinski to Jimmy Carter, in his book 'The Grand Chessboard,' he suggested that an indepedent Ukraine is more beneficial to the US. The Ukraine is said to be a 'geopolitical pivot' that greatly affects neighbouring players such as Russia, the EU and of course to the US.
Now that a pro-Russian leader has been elected, it may strengthen its bond to Russia and hence reignite its past imperial ambitions to dominate (not only militarily) Central Europe and Eurasia. Just shows how important Ukraine is, at least in geostrategic terms.
Although Russia is too weak nowadays to regain past Soviet territory (just look at Chechyna) its external competition over these regions will certainly create more conflict & instability.
Eurasia is America's geostrategic goal, principally for oil (hint hint). And if Russia, with a possibly reuinted Ukraine under Yanukovich, will be in a stronger position to compete against the US for control of Eurasia. (oil pipelines etc) It will be interesting to see how the US & EU leaders to react with this.
Anyone interested in this field of politics should really read the book. Just to finally mention: the book was written in '98, but in his analyses and predictions, he proved the inevitability of events like 9/11 and war in the middle east.

by Mike Tue Nov 23, 2004 22:50

Now I wouldn't think of telling you about what's "really going on" in Irish politics interpreted according to my own ideological understanding. That would be silly, wouldn' t it. So why are you doing this with regard to the Ukraine? It's too hard to get reports from Ukrainian activists? You don't know any? You can't get a first hand account in English?

OK, I'll help you out (we're on a few international activist mailing lists). I'm going to remove names, oh, and don't be deceived by the excellent English of our reporter (a professional translator).

***************************************************
Dear L......er's (list name suppressed)

I thought that you would be interested in my "first hand" experience of the most dramatic events of Ukrainian elections.

An enormous amount of people ( around 100 000 people) is flooding right now the Independence Square, in Kiev, despite bitter cold. They are keeping vigil, since the yesterday evening, in support of the people's candidate Viktor Yuschenko and in protest of the falsified results of the election (which proclaimed another candidate, the on-going PM Viktor Yanoukovich a winner). Although all exit polls indicated the substantial victory of the people's candidate (11%), while the election results were in favour of the nomenclature candidate (3% ). Many frauds are reported (11 000) by the polling observers from around the world.

The students have erected the camps in the center and they intend to stay overnight, despite cold and the militia threatening to ruin the camps..
The meeting has been adressed by prominent opposition leaders. The same activity is underway in another cities across Ukraine, namely Lviv (55 000), Ternopil, Vinnitsa, Chernihiv.

The drama lies in the fact that Ukraine has been sharply divided into two antagonist parts: West-Center versus East-South, where each candidate received around 90% of the votes. Kiev had 70 % of the voted for the people's candidate. I'm afraid that the bankrupt power would do anything to keep the results and ignore the protests of the people. Also, there is an obvious civic opposition between the western and eastern parts. The western part demonstrates the awakened Ukrainian nation, while the eastern past is still in the somnambulistic state.

I can't see how it all can be resolved (without violence) unless the results of the second tour are considered illegitimate by the Verkhovna Rada (Supreme Council). (Also, I was touched by a warm greeting, in Ukrainian, by the Canadian member of Parlaiment)

Best
V........ (name suppressed)

by skeptic Tue Nov 23, 2004 22:53

In Ukraine, differences between Exit Polls and 'results', reports of voter intimidation and fraud are jumped upon with glee. And rightly so.

In the US, differences between Exit Polls and 'results', reports of voter intimidation and fraud are dismissed a 'internet conspiracies'.

In Afghanistan, a fraudulent vote is reported as a 'victory for democracy'.

In Venezuela, an unimpeachable vote is reported as the work of a 'dictatorial President'.

by R. Isible Tue Nov 23, 2004 23:13

Mike,
a couple of things you should note:

1. This is not a case of people in Ireland telling people in the Ukraine what's going on. It's a case of people in Ireland discussing with each other what's going on.

2. If you were able to come up with some information about what was going on w.r.t. politics in Ireland then that'd be useful. Just because you're not from the Ukraine doesn't meant hat you can't point to interesting behaviour by the US-tyrant-in-chief at the time.

3. If you don't like indymedia.ie then why don't you .... etc.

by righteous pragmatist Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:09

It is a pure fluke that the disintegrating U.S.S.R didn't erupt into full scale nuclear civil war drawing the rest of the world into a Armageddon - I think that was the grand strategy behind Daddy Bush's thinking.
The disintegration that did occur- leading to destructive and horrifying wars in Georgia and Checnya was preferable.
What is happening in Ukraine right now is another move on the chessboard.

by righteous pragmatist Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:15

"on the brink of civil conflict"
Ukraine's opposition leader Mr Victor Yushchenko warned yesterday that the country was "on the brink of civil conflict" as 200,000 supporters jammed the centre of the capital Kiev to protest against disputed presidential election results.
[ This story has been downgraded to a comment. This topic already exists in discussion and doesn't need another slot on the newswire taken up. It's not original Opinion / Analysis from the author. Instead it's a copy and paste from an Irish Times article. - Indymedia Editorial Group ]

Ukraine's opposition leader Mr Victor Yushchenko warned yesterday that the country was "on the brink of civil conflict" as 200,000 supporters jammed the centre of the capital Kiev to protest against disputed presidential election results.

Mr Yushchenko went to parliament and proclaimed himself the rightful president, repeating claims that Sunday's results, giving victory to Prime Minister Victor Yanukovich, were a fraud.

Meanwhile protesters jostled riot police outside the Kiev presidency building where Mr Yanukovich is due to accept office later this week and convoys of troops and police were seen entering the city. The Russian president, Mr Vladimir Putin, who has considerable influence in Ukraine and backs Mr Yanukovich, called on both sides to resolve their differences within the law.

Mr Yushchenko failed in his attempt to get parliament to block the election results because government and Communist Party MPs failed to turn up, robbing the chamber of the necessary quorum it needed to pass a no confidence vote.

Instead, with an estimated 50,000 demonstrators roaring their support outside, Mr Yushchenko warned that there may be violence in the days ahead.

"Ukraine is on the threshold of a civil conflict," he said. "We have two choices. Either the answer will be given by the parliament, or by the streets."

To cheers of lawmakers, he then took a Bible in his right hand and repeated the oath of office of president, claiming victory in Sunday's elections.

About 500 of his supporters pushed through metal gates on the perimeter of the parliament building, but did not try to enter the chamber itself.

Television reports showed convoys of trucks carrying troops and police arriving in barracks around the capital. Armoured personnel carriers loaded with soldiers were also seen being deployed along with several artillery pieces.

Much of the city centre was full of demonstrators with orange banners and flags, the colour of the opposition.

But with the government warning it will not tolerate disorder, opposition leaders are worried about possible violence.

"We are sliding towards the abyss," warned parliamentary speaker Mr Volodymyr Lytvyn. "It is amoral and criminal to pretend nothing is happening in the country."

The United States warned of punitive measures against the government if the election results are allowed to stand, while the European Union labelled the election "fraudulent".

But Mr Putin criticised the decision of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, which monitored the elections, for reporting fraud ahead of the final result. "They should be more careful and responsible," he said. Mr Putin on Monday announced the election was fair and congratulated Mr Yanukovich on becoming the new president.

Outgoing president Mr Leonid Kuchma, who picked Mr Yanukovich as his successor, broke a two-day silence yesterday to urge both contenders to meet face-to-face and solve their problems.

Final results have yet to be given, with the central election commission apparently taking its time in finishing the count that shows, with 99.48 per cent of votes counted, that Mr Yanukovich has 49 per cent of the vote beating Mr Yushchenko with 46 per cent.

Following Monday's declaration by Kiev and three other cities that they would recognise only Yushchenko as president, several towns in the pro-government east of the country declared in favour of Yanukovich.

Despite their growing street protests, the opposition appear to have exhausted legal means of challenging the election results: Parliament cannot act unless pro-government MPs attend the chamber, and the Supreme Court seems unwilling to step in and order a recount.

Instead, the opposition leaders are considering calling a general strike to make much of the country ungovernable by the incoming president.

by iosaf diplomatiiiiis. Wed Nov 24, 2004 13:42

and Putin has admitted he congratulated "a candidate" but on exit polls.

By the way, just in case you've all forgotten, one of the key factors in the relationship between the EU and Russia is the shared 23% of Global Gas reserves we potentially could both enjoy to the benefit of all our peoples.

Havel wades in-
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=586066
Eu faces - Putin or People.
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=586065
The Guardian's leader today noting that everyone on the "write a stern letter circuit" agrees this wasn't a schoolroom class rep election.
"its our cause too"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1358294,00.html

Hey if Ukraine was funky enough we'd have alien versus predator style "whoever wins you lose" posters. But like the Ukraine isn't funky.

by premptive unwanted very pragmatic solutions Wed Nov 24, 2004 13:51

give the west catholic bit to the EU
and the eastern orthodox bit to the Russians.
which of course means we get Chernobyl.

by realist Wed Nov 24, 2004 13:56

What is at stake is whether Ukraine has Russian capitalism to exploit them or US/EU capitalism to exploit them. They're both capitalism. Who cares!

by anti capitalist Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:05

What is at issue in Ukraine is what section of the international capitalists exploit the Ukrainian people. It is either US/EU imperialism or Russian imperialism. The people on the streets of Ukraine are right to call for a fair democratic counting of the votes but they are mistaken to believe that EU/US capitalism is more progressive then Russian capitalism.

by celtic fan Wed Nov 24, 2004 21:03

and their orange pals of Victor Y's orange party.
anyways, to keep 200,000 protesters on the street for more than four days calls for logistical and other issues, and goes way beyond the capabilities of radio free europe or whatever radio liberty are calling themselves with or without Prof. Havel. Yes sirree @ some stage the tenders would be going out, fax lines churning, "d'ya want a job?".

Viktor ( a russian and ukranian name as it happens with etymological roots in the word victory) has continued to give the 2 up 3 down hand signal which was popularised by Churchill an english politician and is called the "victory" sign.

.:. but it aint always meant that.
indeedy.
Celtic always have a good match with their peers Barça and a quick look at either's website will show their history of games played both at Camp Nou and in Glasgow. One of which we may never forget was played the night of March 11th 2004.
There's no beer left in the supermarket. Oh dear the chaos of the beautiful game has left the supermarket shelves bare.

Ukraine has a very different history.

They need more than a lack of beer in the supermarket to consider them bare.

@ some point, in the name of liberty - heeheehee - equality and fraternity and less of the equity shite we all need to have the same future.

Mr Viktor, and Mr Balken-end and all the oranges have to think this is a night, I just can't help out.
and neither can oodles of good europeans from the Atlantic to the Urals.

Play on?

by R. Isible Wed Nov 24, 2004 23:03

A British toxicologist is supporting Yushchenko's claims that he was poisoned (based on a comparison of before and after photos rather than a clinical diagnosis) but this is questioned by an Italian toxicologist.

Maybe being in a nearly unregulated capitalistic environment exposes people to poisons in their food?

by Mike Thu Nov 25, 2004 03:46

Are people THAT much blinded by ideology that they cannot even SEE what I did?

I actually (re)posted something from a Ukrainian reporting in on the scene.

The point I am try to make is that "real" reasons don't matter. Do you see THIS person describing events in terms of a battle between the US and Russia? Between capitalism and socialism? Apparently if these things are real, they nevertheless do not seem to make much of an impression upon the consciousness of a Ukrainian and so presumably could not have affected how people voted.

And no my friends, I am NOT pulling a fast one over on you. I picked "V"'s report precisely because "V" is an activist in the same sense you are, reporting in to an "activist" mailing list.

by R. Isible Thu Nov 25, 2004 04:40

you were saying that an Irishperson commenting on the Ukraine was invalid because a USian commenting on Ireland was invalid (especially if they had an "ideological" perspective).

You failed the tests of rationality and logic there. If you were reading the reports of "B***** A****" an "activist" from the FF party who claimed that Ireland was "winning the War on Terror and it has nothing to do with capitalism and imperialism", would you take them as gospel truth and denounce informed speculation from a French person that provided historical background?

Your post from a "Ukranian activist" failed to include information not _already_ widely available from highly spun mainstream media and thus fails to deliver any sort of inside scoop that makes "ideological" speculation useless.

Further, you fail to provide an acutal source. We are Open Publishing media and like "science" and "democracy" we survive on a viciously open and accessible model. Secret "information" from "anonymous" Mikes that claims to be inside information that trumps everything else because you (an anonymous internet presence) claims so, is unconvincing.

Redjade's and others speculation on this thread remains useful and informative. Don't tell them to shut up and then provide nothing we can't get with Google.

by Mike Thu Nov 25, 2004 14:32

"R. Isible" ---- It is perfectly OK for you to acuse me of planting a false (re)report. But not to object that the author was "anonymous". Look in the mirror, damn it. Who are YOU reporting as? I am using my real name, address, but I'm writing from a relatively safe place with regard to the potential outbreak of conflict in the Ukraine. "V" is not.

Are you REALLY trying to uphold the philosophical position that events should be interpreted according to ideological theory with total disregard of the consciousness of the "actors"? Like I said, by all means disbelieve what I said I received from a Ukrainian acitivst --- get your own sources. See if those reports correspond to your theories. Get it? One examines reality to see if a theory is correct. One does not decide without looking what reality MUST be (without looking) by simply going on theory.

I was objecting to THAT behavior. The idea that "what's going on in the Ukraine" should be discussed without asking Ukrainians what THEY thought was going on.. Not that it "trumped" other opinions of what was real, but that it was relevant to the discussion.

by redjade Thu Nov 25, 2004 15:19

Steev says:
''I took this BBC story and did a quick search and replace of some person and place names to come up with a suprisingly familiar story''....


BBC NEWS
United States on brink of 'civil war' Both sides in United States's disputed presidential election have warned of a civil conflict, as tens of thousands of people continue to protest in Washington.

Opposition leader John Kerry rejected the official results declaring incumbent president George Bush as president, and urged a general strike.

Former President Bill Clinton called on world leaders not to interfere.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said London "cannot accept" the election result as legitimate.

Correspondents say the opposition supporters show no signs of ending their three days of protests in the capital, Washington.

DISPUTED ELECTION
Official result: Bush (left): 49.46% Kerry: 46.61%

Western observers report: Abuse of state resources and "overt media bias" in favour of Mr Bush State workers pressured to give absentee voting certificate to their superiors Intimidation reported at some polling stations Suspiciously high turnout in two pro-government regions

it gets better, go read...
http://detritus.net/steev/mt/archives/000218.html

by redjade Thu Nov 25, 2004 15:32

> 'Maidan' – An Internet Hub for Civil Resistance to Authoritarianism in Ukraine
http://eng.maidanua.org/

> International Support for Ukrainian Democracy
http://ukrainiandemocracy.serenatamusic.com/

> Perhaps the Ukrainians can learn from an effort by Americans...

The election is over. The fight is not.
http://www.turnyourbackonbush.org/
'Elections are only one part of democracy. We need to think strategically about direct action, learn from a rich history of nonviolent activism, and develop new tactics to take on this administration.'

by Khalid Farouk Thu Nov 25, 2004 15:55

First you advocate a vote for the multi billionaire senator John Kerry in the US elections now you are supporting a pro US-EU imperialist Ukrainian nationalist chauvinist movement.

I say that the Ukrainian people have a right to have their votes counted properly and for fair elections. But this does not mean you have to support the person they voted for.

Lets make this very clear US/EU imperialism is in no way more progressive then Russian imperialism, socialists and anti capitalists should not give one ounce of support to either candidate in the Ukrainian elections but should instead support the building of an independent workers party that will unify Ukrainian and ethnic Russian wokrers in Ukraine against their common enemies - US/EU Imperialism, Russian imperialism and the rotten Ukrainian capitalists.

by redjade Thu Nov 25, 2004 16:17

'But this does not mean you have to support the person they voted for.'

I wasn't aware that I made any endorsements of any candidate. I just think free and fair elections is a good idea - Call me a reformist if you like.

Mr Farouk, I have to assume you are currently invoilved in this effort of 'building of an independent workers party' in Ukraine?

Please tell us how you are doing this and your recent successes, I am sure others would like to hear.

by Khalid Farouk Thu Nov 25, 2004 16:48

Mr Jade your previous postings connoted a tacit support for the 'opposition' pro US/EU candidate as you did not spell out your opposition to both candidates. Could you please clarify your position.

As for your inquiries into my political activism, it is not the issue at hand and your idea that i have to be politically active in Ukraine in order to comment on UKraine is utterly childish at best. Nevertheless, I will tell you my political history. I am originally from Pakistan where I was involved in many left wing groups and trade unions. I left Pakistan after soem political persecution and settled in Ireland after a brief stay in Germany. I am now an Irish citizen. As well as being active in some anti racist groups I have also been active in the IAWM. I am not a member of any political group at the moment. My first hand experience in Pakistan has taught me the need for workers to have their own political representation and not to be dependent of different sections of the ruling class, I think the same is the case for the American workers and Ukrainian workers. When workers have relied on the ruling class or relegated themselves to 'lesser of 2 evils' it has always resulted in bloody repression - I have seen this at first hand and this is why I am disgusted by your support for Kerry and your possible support of the Ukrainian 'opposition'.

by redjade Thu Nov 25, 2004 17:17

'Could you please clarify your position.'

I told you my position: 'I just think free and fair elections is a good idea'

You have an interesting background and i hope we can meet for a pint someday - would be interesting to chat.

I am however NOT Ukrainian and do not pretend to know whats best for Ukraine - lesser of two evils or other evils. But I do think free and fair elections is a good thing - even if it does not always produce the result that *I* would prefer.

I don't want to sidetrack the discussion about Ukraine into Kerry vs Bush - but I never endorsed Kerry. My position was always a matter of tactics and strategy.

If you think a Kerry Admin would be no different than Bush, you probably are not a woman who values her right to an abortion, nor an American racial minority who's civil rights laws will not be enforced under Bush, or a kid who's health will be endangered by the lack of environmental protection and so on and so on.

its so easy to pontificate on how other people should make decisions and that they should make decisions based on your own ideological assumptions rather than their own needs.

I suppose that you would have all these people not chose the best option available to them that will not purposely go out to take away these protections and right, but to advocate that they wait around for a few Trots to organise 'an independent workers party' and save them from the Capitalist Elite and Imperial Warmongers.

Well, i hate to inform you of this but an 'independent workers party' hasn't a snowballs chance in Hell in America. none.

Without knowing much about Ukraine politics, I suspect that a lot of the people voting in the opposition did vote NOT FOR their candidate but voted for a change from the old corrupt regime.

So the question should be where were the Trots in Ukraine and why didn't they organise their fabled 'independent workers party'?!

Perhaps after all of Ukraine's historical experience with 'socialism' and 'socialists' they wouldn't want to have anything to do with something called a ''independent workers party'?

Leninism has killed the possibility of a democratic socialism for many places in the world - socialism has become a brand name associated with gulags and iron-fisted rule.

i say this as a democratic socialist.

by R. Isible Thu Nov 25, 2004 18:06

QUOTE: Look in the mirror, damn it. Who are YOU reporting as?

I wouldn't trust anything I say either.

QUOTE: Are you REALLY trying to uphold the philosophical position that events should be interpreted according to ideological theory with total disregard of the consciousness of the "actors"?

No. I'm upholding the theory that it is reasonable for someone outside of the Ukraine to comment on events inside the Ukraine.

You on the other hand are upholding the theory that only YOU outside the Ukraine can comment on events inside the Ukraine because you think you have access to inside information.

You interpret that information (which is no different from the news reports that I got through non-activist media) as the gospel truth.

Furthermore you disregard the potential of "ideological theory" which influences the "consciousness of the actors" to distort and colour what they write. Is "V" a pro-capitalist, ex-party appartchik scrambling to the new trough? Is s/he a libertarian waiting for the destruction of the old State? Is s/he working for a US news or government agency? Does s/he have a history of providing compelling information in the past that has turned out to be accurate? Even more importantly does V's report have any merit on its own? Does it contain a startling claim, fact or presentation that is different to the information available through Reuters, AP, etc.?


QUOTE: I was objecting to THAT behavior. The idea that "what's going on in the Ukraine" should be discussed without asking Ukrainians what THEY thought was going on.. Not that it "trumped" other opinions of what was real, but that it was relevant to the discussion.

Up to that point the discussion had been based upon second-hand sources who had very probably been both talking to Ukrainians and watching the actual events that occurred in the Ukraine.

I'm not objecting to getting first-hand accounts. On the contrary, I welcome them. I do object to the presenting of that information as gospel truth however, especially when there are no facts within them that aren't all over the net. To me that most definitely smells like USAID, or a lazy ideologically-driven correspondent.

In any event what you presented did not warrant labelling the discussion as "silly" up to that point as you had nothing new to contribute.

by the ipsiphi Thu Nov 25, 2004 18:08

It's quite clear that we in Europe do not consider the elections to have been fair, one simple reason was the amount of cash which was given to voters by both sides in rural areas. & there are many more.
It ought also be quite clear that we in Europe do not have the same political or cultural agenda as those who see fit to comment from the US.
Many of us have memories which are long and dark of the Ukraine, and hope to see the problems of the Ukranians resolved not least those which directly touch us, those of contamination and Chernobyl or Tsernobyl. Whoever proves to be victor be they ukranian or russian, I (for one) don't feel any immediate need or wish to go intefering, investing or divesting in Kiev.

Meanwhile, let's see what President Putin has to say, and no-one with a passing knowledge of general strikes can say that they have proved that succesful a means of overthrowing or installing governments in the most recent years.

by Nollaig Thu Nov 25, 2004 22:20

People went out and protested the result of the recent American election.

So, the Ukranian result is patently fraudulent, are we going to do anything to help the people of Ukraine?

Or is there some matter of principle here????

by righteous pragmatist Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:16

If this causes a confrontation between Russia and the USA - the Left will blame the US- "No War for Ukrainian wheat!"

by Dave Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:31

Putin Asks U.N. to Make Ukraine Election Legitimate
(2004-11-26) -- In an effort to soothe political tensions in the Ukraine following what observers called a fraudulent national election, Russian President Vladimir Putin today proposed that the United Nations "make the election legal."

Mr. Putin, whose diplomatic foresight allowed him to congratulate Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich for winning the Ukrainian presidency even before the votes were counted, said the solution to the crisis need not be complicated.

"We know that legitimacy flows from the U.N. Security Council," Mr. Putin said. "A quick vote on a resolution will give Mr. Yanukovich the credibility he lacks, thus ending the problem in our Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic...did I really say that, or just think it?"

by hmmm viktory for viktor. Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:07

Some pro-Viktors are anti-Viktors, and the other anti-Viktors are pro-Viktors.
Lech the solidarity dude is pro-Viktor and anti-Viktor and is the latest member of the velvet overground to arrive in Kiev. With less than a month to goto christmas, the supermarkets are filling their shelves with cheap reindeer meat, and an obscure doctor in a London Hospital has declared that one of the Viktor's might have been poisoned by comparing photos of his face taken last year and last week. It's the acne thing, apparantly this is caused by dioxines, and has nothing to do with the fact that that particular Viktor campaigned for months in the western part of the Ukraine where chernobyl is.
No-one has been much interested in publishing photos of ordinary people in Chernobyl for the last few years, as they have become an acne ridden lot and some think the extra arms and stuff aren't that pretty, viktor has instead chosen to be photographed with exceptionally beautiful blonde girl types wearing their hair in plaited tresses which is sort of viking-ish. No-one has yet given a thought to where either Viktor would stand on the middle east peace process or their attitutes to foreigners in general which might become important later on, because they might just be "really unpleasant" - who knows?

by redjade Sun Nov 28, 2004 13:31

at the risk of being accused of being a Ukrainian Nationalist I submit the following for your mouse clicking pleasure....

Ukraineblogs's digest:
http://kinja.com/user/ukraineblogs/default/all/

also check out

http://fistfulofeuros.net/ - always worthreading

fistfulofeuros reminds us that Romania is having an election today http://fistfulofeuros.net/archives/000991.php

also read: http://www.kyivpost.com

by redjade Mon Nov 29, 2004 14:32

Ukraine Journalist Stages Silent Revolt
By Carl Schreck
November 29
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2004/11/29/002.html

When the anchorwoman for Ukraine's state-owned television station UT-1 reported Thursday morning that Viktor Yanukovych had officially been declared the winner of the presidential election, Natalya Dmitruk staged a silent protest.

Dmitruk, shown in the bottom righthand corner of the screen wearing an orange ribbon indicating her support for opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko, told viewers in sign language that she considered the Nov. 21 election a farce.

"I am addressing all the deaf citizens of Ukraine," Dmitruk signed. "Our president is Yushchenko. Don't believe what they say. They are lying."

[....]

"My soul is heavy that I had to repeat these lies," Dmitruk signed. "I will not do it again. I don't know if we'll see each other again."

by iosaf Tue Nov 30, 2004 13:17

here's a link to an analysis in the guardian on the partition possibilities.

Irish readers don't really need lessons on the problems of partition. Every partition of any country or state is always immediately followed by what is called now "ethnic cleansing". Refugees move to whichever side of the new frontier they feel more "comfortable". And usually even more people just leave. It is surprising that many aren't leaving already. But where can they go? The Ukranian nationalist communities in Europe staged solidarity demonstrations last Sunday in Madrid, Paris, Berlin etc., down the road (here in barcelona) the ukranian community (which is mostly illegal workers) shares the russian emigré community centre. A small place with a few books, some music and a place to call into and chat in your language to people who grew up in the same place as you. It's not really like anything like an "irish pub" nor is it like a "british pub", they don't do beer and football matches, and they don't bristle with celtic tiger confidence. They're not on the pig's back you see. These Europeans are as european as the polish, as european as the Rumanians.

If they move to a "fudged" partition, with a clear delineation between "spheres of influence", then we in "Europe" shall get Chernobyl. And we will clean up that irradiated land according to our high standards of enviromental care. And the russians will get their mineral resources, mines and of course their access to the Black Sea. And undoubtedly there will be many thousands who just like last year, will want to leave go west and live on the pig's back. Many only manage to find lives of sexual slavery in the prostition networks of central europe. Others do manage to find student careers to qualify predominantly in scientific sectors. One thing is certain, no matter the propaganda, Ukraine is not economically nor legally suitable to be a EU member state yet partitioned or not. And so the backers who are feeding the "orange supporters" on the street of Kiev now, will (if they are truly philanthropic) continue to assist one of the poorest populations on the continent through one of the harshest winters. - won't they?

by redjade Tue Nov 30, 2004 15:18

'And undoubtedly there will be many thousands who just like last year, will want to leave go west and live on the pig's back.'

All good points and thoughts Iosaf.

Some things that I have been mulling over about Ukraine as of late have been much of what you wrote and other such.

First, I like others know next to nothign about about Ukraine - and the election crisis has been a crash-course for me.

Second, the problem with the first is that one learns from first impressions that fit preconcieved ideas. Its hard not be on the side of anyone who looks to be starting an 'uprising' - but then is it an 'uprising' or just a well ochestrated media event in a capitol city? reading the ever shallow media it is hard to really know.

I was attracted to what John Laughland of http://www.oscewatch.org had to say the Guardian:

> ''The western imagination is now so gripped by its own mythology of popular revolution that we have become dangerously tolerant of blatant double standards in media reporting. [....] Voters in Britain and the US have witnessed their governments lying brazenly about Iraq for over a year in the run-up to war, and with impunity. This is an enormous dysfunction in our own so-called democratic system. Our tendency to paint political fantasies on to countries such as Ukraine which are tabula rasa for us, and to present the west as a fairy godmother swooping in to save the day....'' <
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1360951,00.html

But then I read today's David Aaronovitch OpEd piece about John Laughland 'PR man to Europe's nastiest regimes'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1362616,00.html
> ''Laughland has variously queried the idea that human rights are a problem in Belarus, or that the Serbs behaved so very savagely in Kosovo. He has defended Slobodan Milosevic, criticised the International Tribunal in the Hague..'' <

Aaronovitch goes on to connect Laughland to US Right-Wing Libertarian groups like AntiWar.com and http://randolphbourne.org and others - which many lefties in ireland think is either 'libertarian' in the Irish political sense of the word or is something leftish in general - its not. The US Libertairians are in their own paradigm, often nativist and isolationist and connected to the likes of Pat Buchanan. Its one of those things that if you go far enough right you end up on the left - or vice-versa. I don't want to knock them too hard, but its good to listen to them with some knowledge of what they are about.

Laughland's writings on AntiWar.com can be found here...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=site%3Awww.antiwar.com+%22by+John+Laughland%22&btnG=Search

---

Off this topic and stickin' to the main one....

Wikipedia has a beta site of their upcoming WikiNews service and they have a page up for the Ukraine Crisis...
http://demo.wikinews.org/wiki/Ukraine_political_crisis

Also Daniel Drezner has been blogging the Ukraine situation...
http://www.danieldrezner.com/blog/

And 'Body and Soul' Blog has some interesting links and makes some comparison between Ukraine, Venezuela and Iraq...
http://bodyandsoul.typepad.com/blog/2004/11/democracy.html

by heeheehee Thu Dec 02, 2004 09:45

Lessons for Grown ups-

You can't have a velvet revolution without students and young people. You can feed your supporters bring them into the city by the bus load, give them orange baseball caps, hand out the song sheet, invite prominent international politicians over, ask the Pope for a blessing (i you promise not to use condoms) but you don't get a proper velvet revolution without the students and youngsters.

I am pleased to announce the creation of the
GREEN BLOCK.

The Greenies, are ecologically minded, non authoritarian, pacifists, many of them are happy to speak both Ukranian and Russian, and none of them want to see "ukraine just for the ukranians" and they havea better idea of why Ukranians don't use condoms than either Saint chrystosome did, Patriarch Bart does or anyone who can afford to deck out their supporters in Orange or Blue Tshirts.

The Green Block have taken up positions on the traffic islands. (sound familiar?) They're a sort of a greenie white black block to be honest.

;-)

by redjade Thu Dec 02, 2004 15:56

more stuff here...
http://fistfulofeuros.net/archives/001014.php

by Anarchy in the UKraine Thu Dec 02, 2004 18:51

Bitter lemons- Six questions to the critics of Ukraine's orange revolution
Timothy Garton Ash
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1364361,00.html

Why are so many west Europeans being such lemons about Ukraine's orange revolution? Every day brings a new example of some feeble, back-handed or downright hostile reaction.
.....

Behind all these contorted reservations, we hear an inner voice which says, in effect, "Why won't all these bloody, semi-barbarian, east Europeans leave us alone, to go on living happily ever after in our right, tight, little west European (or merely British) paradise?" And, quite often, "Why are those bloody Americans stirring them up to disturb us?" For this is not a simple left-right divide. It's a divide between, on the one side, central and east Europeans inside the EU, together with Americans of left and right, and, on the other, west Europeans of both left and right.

by :-) Thu Dec 02, 2004 19:37

NO TO PARTITION
no to the oranges and no! to the blue reds.

by yevgueni zamiatin Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:45

And you thought they only happened in hot countries.
This allegation happened today in the Guardian's letter pages. Here's the links to all the articles on the Ukraine that have been published there-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/archive/0,15569,1357581,00.html

I've left you mostly English media links, because traditionally since about 1928 the Irish relationship to the USSR and thereafter Russia and it's former posessions has been carried out "behind" British academic analysis and geo-political gameplay. Almost all non-Russian academic staff in Ireland for example were Britons. Though from the period 1928 to a peak in the early 1960s many dissident and other "refugees" of Russian or Soviet block origin took up residency in Ireland.

The Duma, which is the Dail of Russia has voted in censure of European meddling in the "orange revolution / coup d'etat" thing over the last few weeks. The Duma has also completely endorsed Putin's praise for those who have averted any partition of the Ukraine.

Here is the Duma statement- You may need to adjust your browser to cyrillic code, or you could wait till the reuters people put in yankee english for you. But for here on in, I'm leaving the British russian department behind. Cheers for the assistance.
:-)


415 депутатов проголосовали за принятие Заявление Государственной Думы О попытках деструктивного вмешательства извне в развитие ситуации в Украине.

«Депутаты Государственной Думы Федерального Собрания Российской Федерации выражают серьезную озабоченность в связи с развитием общественно-политической ситуации в Украине. Опора оппозиции на методы «уличной демократии», затянувшийся кризис, связанный с выборами Президента Украины, создают предпосылки для перехода политического противостояния в еще более острую фазу.

Особое значение в данных условиях имеет то, насколько взвешенной и ответственной является позиция международного сообщества в отношении противостоящих групп украинского общества и их лидеров. В этой связи депутаты Государственной Думы с возрастающей тревогой наблюдают за деятельностью ряда представителей Европейского союза, в том числе Европейского парламента, и органов Организации по безопасности и сотрудничеству в Европе, в частности Бюро по демократическим институтам и правам человека, не способствующей стабилизации обстановки в Украине.

Их однобокий подход, выражающийся в том числе в отсутствии принципиальной оценки беспрецедентного давления на власть сторонников кандидата от оппозиции, фактически подталкивает к опасным действиям радикально настроенную часть населения Украины, что грозит массовыми беспорядками, хаосом, расколом страны. Это будет иметь самые негативные последствия не только для Украины, но и для России, всей Европы и международного сообщества в целом.

Депутаты Государственной Думы обращают внимание на то, что внешние силы, которые пытаются деструктивно влиять на развитие событий в Украине, несут прямую ответственность за выход ситуации за рамки правового поля.Государственная Дума отмечает, что Российская Федерация искренне заинтересована в том, чтобы кризис в Украине нашел свое разрешение демократическим, конституционным путем.

Государственная Дума заявляет о своем твердом намерении продолжать усилия по укреплению традиционной дружбы, братских отношений между народами России и Украины».
Управление по связям с общественностью и взаимодействию со СМИ

Doesn't it look like Double Dutch?
Well no it doesn't look like double dutch, it looks like "hello you europeans and mister balken ende if you go intefering in our neighbour's elections, there will be no stopping you and next we know you'll be challenging Bush's election, and toppling Sharon, and having a go at our mafia, and the seeds of chaos are being sown in the ukraine by radical elements".

DOSTA!
Relax. they're only green ribbons.
MIR!
niet privat glasnot!

Now for all is failings "and they are many" Mr Putin and company have come up with a very good idea, and that is a complete re-run of the elections from scratchy and smellie.

Not just a return to the polls for Viktor versus Viktor, but a proper election just like you get for schoolclassroom rep. With observers, ribbons, posters and something to excite the youngsters.
The SWP might agree (since they're a bunch in ireland who have a traditional russian slant) that the GREEN peace alliance of the Ukraine is the way to go.

by Timothy Garton Ash Fri Dec 03, 2004 13:14

4. Why is Russia entitled to a sphere of influence, including Ukraine, if the United States is not entitled to a sphere of influence, including Nicaragua?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1364361,00.html

by redjade Fri Dec 03, 2004 16:03

MP3 download:
http://www.nepizno.tk/download/razom_-_nas_bagato.mp3

Razom Nas Bahato
http://www.orangeukraine.squarespace.com/journal/2004/11/29/razom-nas-bahato.html

Together we are many
We cannot be defeated.

Falsifications. No!
Machinations. No!
Prison rules. No!
No to lies!
Yushchenko, Yushchenko!
is our President.
Yes! Yes! Yes!

We aren't beasts of burden.
We aren't goats.
We are of Ukraine
sons and daughters
It's now or never
enough of waiting
together we are many
together we cannot be 
defeated.

by Khalid Farouk Fri Dec 03, 2004 17:19

"Yushchenko, Yushchenko!
is our President.
Yes! Yes! Yes!"

Why do you post this if you claim not to support US imperialism?

Both presidential candidates are simply representing different sections of the ruling capitalist class in Ukraine. One section wants to team up with Russian capitalists in exploiting Ukrainian workers and the other want to team up with US and EU capitalists to exploit Ukrainian workers. Anti capitalists, socialists and working class activists should not give one ounch of support to either side but instead call for Ukraine to be put under the ownership, control and managment of the workers.

Redjade, have a look at who exactly is in the protests in Kiev. They are largely small business people and those that made killings on the sell off of Ukraines state owned assets. It's like supporting the Progressive Democrats! On the other side are those that were fucked over by the large scale privatisations after the collapse of the USSR and now live in poverty and unemployment. If you were to engage in this 'lesser of two evilsism' and pick a side why are you picking Yushchenko?!

by Peter Fri Dec 03, 2004 17:30

Copy and pasted article replaced with link to the source.

by redjade Fri Dec 03, 2004 17:36

I suppose ive been called worse.

'Why do you post this if you claim not to support US imperialism?'

just to mess with with your head, Khalid ;-)

I post it because it is interesting, adds to the news of this news site and so on - i put it there to be discussed, and you are discussing, so you made me happy today, Khalid.

as Timothy Garton Ash says
3. Are you reluctant to support the orange movement just because the Americans do?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1364361,00.html

'lesser of two evilsism'? and pick a side why are you picking Yushchenko?!'

I didn't pick anyone, I'm just a passive observer like yourself. (read previous comment by me)

Perhaps you could provide some links to that 'independent workers party' you were writing about?

Looks like there will be a new election...

''The Supreme Court declared the results of Ukraine's disputed presidential run-off election invalid and ruled Friday that a repeat vote should be held by Dec. 26....'
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=3&u=/ap/20041203/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_election

Perhaps an 'independent workers party' will win the next time around?

by Khalid Farouk Fri Dec 03, 2004 17:55

I am not aware of any workers party in Ukraine and am not aware of the emergence of such a party but this does not mean I can't analyse events in Ukraine and say that neither of the capitalist parties deserve support and people should only back candidates and parties that are in the workers movement and are independent of imperialism.

Redjade, your general line of argument is that where there is no working class party in a given country that we should just pick one of the capitalist parties to support. This is disgusting! You did this with regard America, you picked Kerry and said the anti war, anti capitalist and workers movement should put its weight behind a multi billionaire!

this is a vile position to have. To paraphrase Connolly, the workers movment is strongest when it stands alone and independent of the capitalist class. Every single time workers have aligned themselves with elements of the capitalists it has lead to defeat and bloody repression. Just look at China in the 20s, Chile, Spain....

The working class of Ukraine need to break with both capitalist candidates, both only offer further oppression and civil war. The way forward for Ukraine is with socialism and a common struggle against all sections of imperialism.

by Ray Fri Dec 03, 2004 18:04

... is that the working class in the Ukraine appear to have spoken, and to have chosen a bourgeois party. Its possible to think the class should break with all such parties and yet still recognise that one party got more votes than another.

by redjade Fri Dec 03, 2004 18:31

Issue #1 - were the elections valid, if not, then how to make them valid - Supreme Court answered that one today.

Issue #2 - How should Ukrainians create utopia.

these are two interelated issues - yet, separate. got it?

I am not a Ukrainian, but I suspect that I was I might see the choice something like this....

Choice One: A new regime that is loyal to the old ways, Russian domination, corruption, Soviet-ish style of government and so on - not pretty.

Choice Two: Lots of problems with this new guy Yuschenko, but the EU and the US of A like him so maybe - just maybe - with a free and fair election we can get him in and Ukraine can be within the orbit of the EU and away from Putin.

A Choice between:

- a Neo-Stalinistic Putin wannabe led by a perhaps in the future imperial Russia - a country that intentionally starved millions of your citizens at one time and gave you this old wreck called Chernobyl...

- a Ukraine protected by an American led NATO and economically absorbed by a Neo-Liberal yet sort of social-democratic EU that offers economic aid and various other kinds of social development and chance to be within one of the core world economics perhaps someday (maybe even a hope of creating a Ukrainian Tiger Economy?) .....

Hmmmm hard choice to make, but....

Probably the better option would be to wait for some trots to form a 'independent workers party' but until then....

Khalid, either way, It is not for us to decide - we aint Ukrainians. Free and Fair elections are the best option, i think.

By the way, just found this, a good anti-Yuschenko article by Justin Podur (and well sourced) can be found here.
http://www.killingtrain.com/archives/000304.html

by redjade Fri Dec 03, 2004 19:11

''In another blow to U.S. efforts to keep nations involved in Iraq, Ukraine's parliament asked outgoing President Leonid Kuchma to withdraw Ukraine's contingent of about 1,600 soldiers.''

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=2&u=/nm/20041203/ts_nm/iraq_dc

by redjade Mon Dec 06, 2004 15:07

06 December 2004

Ukraine's embattled government is ready to stage faked terrorist attacks to destabilise the country and discredit the opposition ahead of a rerun of the presidential vote, a senior government source has told The Independent.

The official, who works for the government of the Moscow-backed candidate and current Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, said: "One of the plans is to blow up a pipeline and blame it on opposition supporters. Ukraine is the key transit country for Russian gas supplies to the West."

Mr Yanukovych's backers fear the prospect of their candidate losing to Viktor Yushchenko and are ready to plunge the country into economic chaos, the source revealed. "They are planning to use criminals - plain bandits - that they have a hold over." The source said that a senior member of the government had been tasked with overseeing terrorist acts.

by pc Wed Dec 08, 2004 18:37

Here is a report from SchNEWS’ Ukraine correspondent. A conclusion put forward is that "the majority went to the streets not to bring Yuschenko to power, but to prevent Yanukovych from seizing it. The feeling from the people is: “With Yuschenko – we’ll be in opposition; with Yanukovych, there’ll be no opposition”." For protesters it’s not just a fight between two political leaders, but a struggle to overthrow the authoritarian system created and strengthened in Ukraine over the last 10 years. Yanukovych – prime-minister at the time of the elections and presidential candidate - was picked as a candidate by the current president, Mr. Kuchma, in return for guarantees to the president and his allies of immunity from prosecution for all his crimes, committed while in power, as well as protection of their assets gained through criminal privatisation.

blue or red or orange or blue

by norberto Tue Dec 21, 2004 03:24

Nice article! Couldn't agree more!

Check out
Ukrainian Toronto.com Has the latest news in English about this topic.