'No Platform Policy' for TCD

by Badman Tue Oct 19, 2004 01:44

It's stupid. It would ban pretty much everybody.

by Spokesperson Tue Oct 19, 2004 01:49

The extremists responsible for millions of deaths in the 20th century through fascism, nazism and communism cannot be allowed the chance to repeat their terror once more

by Badman Tue Oct 19, 2004 01:57

How about those who discriminate on the grounds of class? That would include all people who own businesses that sell products and services as they clearly discriminate on the grounds of class by providing their products disproportionately to the rich.

Your 'petition' is a cheap and stupid point scoring trick. That you come up with such an obvious ploy and expect others to fall for it does not say much about your intelligence. Good luck in your quest to find people who are stupider than you to sign this. You'll need it.

by spokesperson Tue Oct 19, 2004 02:03

So you think it is okay to murder small farmers a la Stalin? Maybe you deny that as well!

The millions killed in the USSR under the guise of class discrimination are no less worthy of our sympathy than the Jews, Roma or other victims of the nazis.

You and your type have little to distinguish themselves from the holocaust deniers, if you deny the mass murder of people based on naught but class.

Organisations that preach the mantra that lead to the stalinist, maoists and other mass murders should be treated in the same manner that neo-nazis are.

by Badman Tue Oct 19, 2004 02:16

How you managed to deduce my opinion of stalin from my comments about your silly petition escapes me, but well done my dear boy, it is a brilliant and politically astute conclusion.

Obviously anybody who can see how stupid your petition is must be a supporter of Stalin and a denier of his crimes! It frustrates me that I never seem to be able to arrive at these logical conclusions without help from a wise individual such as yourself.

Your argument about Stalin's murders being purely based on class also reveals you to be a uniquely insightful commentator - far in advance of all of our historians who hold remarkably backward views in comparison. The purges of the party in the 1930's were obviously intended to get rid of the remaining bourgeois who had managed to infiltrate the politburo. And the muslims and Poles were in fact persecuted for their subconscious aristocratic outlook. While the anarchists and the SR's were merely industrialists in disguise.

Before you decide to put together any more 'clever' articles like this you should remember that those who don't have a clue of what they're talking about aren't generally considered to be clever.

by Ck Tue Oct 19, 2004 03:01

"Trinity Students for Freedom" !!!
(Number of members = 1 one - uno)

Always good to be reminded of how stupid some of these people are. I do like a good laugh now and again.

by toneore Tue Oct 19, 2004 06:31

This is another knee-jerk reaction to Barrett - how come Trinity Students Union didn't object when muslim nazis were lined up to speak in TCD?


It took John Bruton to stop the thug.


=================


Trinity College Dublin has been forced to withdraw an invitation to an Islamic extremist who was scheduled to speak at a conference on US foreign policy next month.

Anjem Choudry, a British born spokesman for the pro-al Qaeda al-Muhajiroun group, was scheduled to speak at a Trinity debate on 9 October.

But after former Taoiseach John Bruton threatened on Friday to pull out of the meeting the event's organisers, the University's Philosophical Society, cancelled Choudry's invitation. The society had already bought plane tickets and booked a hotel for the al-Muhajiroun spokesman.

The extreme Muslim group caused widespread outrage in Britain last week after it called the September 11 hijackers 'the Magnificent 19'.

On Friday morning Bruton told the society he was not prepared to take part if the al-Muhajiroun speaker was on the same platform.

'I made it clear to them that throughout my political life I would not sit and talk to unrepentant terrorists or their supporters.

by twig Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11

Ah, how nice. A fictional statement from a fictional group. Maybe they're twinned with the Trinity Women's Issues Group?

by Michael Hennigan Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:16

Quote: 'The purges of the party in the 1930's were obviously intended to get rid of the remaining bourgeois who had managed to infiltrate the politburo....'

..rather a benign view of one of history's great monsters. Perish the thought that Stalin's number one motivation was himself. To take just one of many crimes, the engineered famine in the Ukraine which cost at least 5 million lives could be rationalised as another 'purge' I suppose.

by Curious Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:41

The Imperialist countries committed massacres amounting to millions this went on through the 20 th Century and continues up today in imperialist adventures throughout the world.

I presume that you also want to ban representatives of these countries.

by veteran Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:55

...but the SU adopting a No Platform policy will affect absolutely nothing except possibly the speaking rights of fascist class reps, if any are elected...

All societies are funded by the Central Societies Committee, separate from the Students' Union. The SU has exactly zero sway with the debating societies (who, let's face it, are the targets in this).

by benjamin franklin Tue Oct 19, 2004 13:08

Sorry to sneer at your obvious good intentions but you have moved from the standard profession of Equality believing "all were created equally" or "all are equal before the law" to declaring that all in society _are equal_. You are a student at the university which best illustrates economic inequality in Ireland, so this petition is pretension and nothing more.
There has been no such changes in the "real world". And your attempt to include both "far left and far right" ignores the realities of last week. Some young people prevented a spokesperson for a hate group taking a podium of a student debate. What is more important is that at the very same time migrant families were subject to anonymous hate attacks in Ireland.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3746682.stm

by historian Tue Oct 19, 2004 13:13

Two totally unconnected events wouuldnt you agree?

Besides, if AFA are against these attacks why don't they go to the areas theay are happening and confront those responsible? They are not hard to find althoguh would be a rather more formidable target than some underfed gawkish spoiled priest from Longford.

by George Tue Oct 19, 2004 13:56

Well yes and no.

No because no one is suggesting that Barrett has any direct connection with the fascists who lie behind some of these attacks in the north. Then again Nick Griffins BNP have some links with northern fascists and Barrett and Griffin visit the same European neo-fascist parties.

The main reason for thinking there is no direct connection is because the fascists in the north are nearly all from loyalist areas and so would not be keen on Barretts catholic nationalist approach.

So why a yes?

Well as people will be aware there is a very high level of racial attacks in loyalist areas up north. It's not that there are any more racists there. It's that because of their support for loyalist paramilitaries the fascists have been allowed the space to organise in. And once they have got organised they do the same there as they have done everywhere else in Europe.

Those who stopped Barrett organising in UCD did so on the basis that if fascists are allowed to organise in the south then we can expect the same pattern. It's not that Barrett himself will go out and attack people - although of course those around Youth Defence - he was the PRO - did a lot of this in the 1990's. It's that he will act as a focus around which those who would do so will organise.

As shown elsewhere Irelands bedroom nazis do indeed see Barrett as a useful focus. One of them have even boasted of organising local meetings for him. Others reckon he is the 'real thing' (in comparison to the ICP). And known fascists did make us of the organising space provided in UCD and Galway to turn up, meet each other and organise who knows what.

In UCD these attempts were at least semi-disrupted. It's unlikely that the particular examples of the master race who lost their punch up at the L&H will be organising anything outside of their bedrooms any time soon.

I'm not involved in AFA but from the little I know of them the university campus is the last place you'd normally find them. Most of their work is done in communities in this city where such attacks happen. When I lived in the north inner city there was a time when fascists used to put racist and fascist stickers all over the place before every major GAA match. But few fans would ever have seen them as others tore them down each morning, the few remaining being covered by AFA stickers.

For the students it is all very shocking as this is something new to them. But these sort of confrontations have been going on in this city for at least a couple of decades as fascists try and organise and others prevent them doing so. Something acknowledged by the fascists on their web sites. But for the most part this all happens out of the sight of the ivory towers except - as happens every couple of years - when some idiot students decide it would be a great prank to give some fascist a platform.

Southern Ireland is almost alone in Europe in not having an organised fascist movement. This is not because there is no history of fascism. The blueshirts were big enough in the 30's and more Irish men fought with Franco then the republic in Spain. It's because every generation has seen those trying to build a fascist movement defeated. And these defeats did not take place because of the power of student oratory!

by Oisín Tue Oct 19, 2004 14:10

Thanks for throwing a bit more light on the subject. I think i'm beggining to see AFA's point a bit better if not altogether agree with it.

by Yossarian Tue Oct 19, 2004 14:38

Eh, Michael, I'd say that was supposed to be irony...

by Voice of Reason Tue Oct 19, 2004 15:20

Extremist of various shades of opinion have spoken at Irish University debates before. Justin Barrett seems to have been made exception of though.

The "phoenix rising from the ashes" part makes an otherwise worthy statement seem a bit too David Brent.

by Trinity Students for Free Speech Tue Oct 19, 2004 16:08

Would the ban extend for example to Tariq Ramadan, who's speaking at polsoc tonight, who many regard as an apologist for terrorism.

When you suppress (there's no other word for it) speech, because of its content, where do you stop? Who will decide what speech is unacceptable and what is?

Because the ideals of liberty include a freedom to debate and disagree. The title "Trinity Student for Freedom" could not be more inappropriate.

Speech does not harm anyone physically, though it may harm some emotionally, that is the price to be paid for a free market in ideas. You argue that speech can incite violence, in that case it's the thug who's responsible and not the speaker. Surely you're inciting violence by calling for speakers you disagree with to be suppressed violently, so by your own logic, your own speech should be supressed.

by green Tue Oct 19, 2004 17:34

This is incredible my understanding is that univeristies should be places where free speech is welcomed. This must inevitably mean that minority opinions are allowed to be voiced irrespective how detested they are by the majority. One of the distingushing charatarstics of a democratic society is tolerance. It is this tolerance that ensures that a democratic society is different from a totalitarian society.

Its sad to see that those who proclaim to believe in tolerance are behaving in an intolerant manner. Have these people learnt nothing from history.

by historian Tue Oct 19, 2004 17:45

You are missing the point. AFA do not beleive in tolerance or an open society. They are totalitarians of the left.

by forge Tue Oct 19, 2004 23:02

fascists should be stopped yeah but
"any form of discrimination"...
that a big generalisation...

by Paul Wed Oct 20, 2004 16:45

So now TCD promotes violence against people who don't succumb to their liberal ideology? This is getting better by the minute.

by Incredible Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:53

You people are incredible. Fascists organise and attack ethnic minorities of which i doubt any of you belong to. You invariably belong to the white middle class computer monitor activists grouping. Fascists have issued death threats against several key anti racist activists and are currently looking for people's addresses to "take them out". Universities get a large portion of their income from foreign students paying huge fee's. These students have as much right to study in a discrimination free environment as Irish students. We must also remember that there are large numbers of ethnic minorities working in the colleges who are also entitled to work in a discrimination free environment. One should look at the NUS in Britain who organise a similar no platform for fascists policy. Any of you advocating free speech for fascists are suffering from Weimar Republic syndrome. I doubt if any of you useless cretins are in danger of being attacked by these people if you were you would be singing a very different tune.

by old boy Thu Oct 21, 2004 19:49

David Irving (holocaust denier, nazi historian) was invited to speak by the tcd historical society in the late eighties which led to raucous scenes outside the debate building then. There had been a discussion at an SU assembly which voted on a motion to prevent the debate happening, i think the motion to deny a platform to this nazi was carried and there followed a pretty serious standoff which led to a small amount of physical confrontation with the reactionary and oppurtunist minions of the hist/phil. Anyway at the time it was a usefull project in going after some of the right wing pricks who populate these societies. Irvings talk was abandoned as some anti fascists managed to infiltrate and disrupt the meeting.

Whatever about barret and his goons speaking in the universities the real issue for students are the cynics who organise these events and use your money to do it. those are the assholes who should be chased out of the colleges, or at least politically confronted and marginalised. Thats the real work to be done. It was sucessfull in pushing back the right in trinity after the irving business and the left and anti fascist students should build on the anti fascist momentum that exists because of the current situation.

by until it sleeps Fri Oct 22, 2004 00:17

Ireland has a Fascist background because more people fought for Franco than the republicians? If you believe the Spanish Civil War to be that black and white you need a history lesson.

by tom boy Fri Oct 22, 2004 14:02

in your cheap attempt to take a shot at the left you have shown a clear misunderstanding of politics to the left of centre. Left wing ideologies want to end class discrimination idiot. Oh and a huge amount of students lecturers would be expelled for class discrimation, but not the way your thinking.- think --- your rep for snobbery

by veteran Fri Oct 22, 2004 14:43

Firstly, what reactionary right wing pricks are in the Phil and the Hist? There's no reason to assume that the people involved in the societies are right-wing. The President of the Phil, if anything, is fairly close in ideology to a great number of the people here. Secondly, the debate was still held by the Phil that night, in a conference room in the Berkeley hotel, after windows were broken in the GMB and the place was shown to be clearly unsafe.

Next: what's this nonsense about "cynics"? If they were realy cynical they wouldn't bother getting those guests. They're generally a huge amount of hassle, due to the amount of work that results from idiots deciding to act as thought police. Cynics would invite the same boring old people to the same boring old debates every year. Instead, these societies decide to face people like Barrett and argue them down.

Finally: there IS no "anti-fascist momentum". One person being physically prevented from speaking does not a movement make. If anything, the people who defend the right to free speech are better organised and more ready to fight attempts to shut them down than the AFA.

Finally: everyone's saying that "you can't judge, you're not being threatened by fascists". Does that mean that the moment Richard Waghorne posts here arguing in favour of free speech, everyone's going to back down?

by Enver Fri Oct 22, 2004 16:09

Is Waghorne fash? Is he is Bush guy?

by old boy Fri Oct 22, 2004 17:30

the hist and the phil do invite the same old boring codgers time and again in my experience, which is not current. I havent been near the place in several years. So in your book thats cynical, i disagree and feel that its just boring, conservative and unimaginative. the cynicism is about inviting guys like Irving and Barrett, in the full knowledge that they will be resisted by forward thinking students and members of the public who occasionally attend lectures and debates. Its naiive to think that order numer one for these societies is other than to get a mention in the irish times. it is a politcal game and politics of this sort is about attention. All that hard work you describe (as if it were gods work) is an investment in a bright future, at least thats the idea.

Youre probably right about the exec officers towing closely to the general mood in the university. Irish college students have drifted to the right over the last decade. this is evident in the paucity of activism on campuses and by the collapse of USI as any kind of political force among students. Im not sure about the politics of the current crop of debating leaders, but when i was involved right wingers on campus would be found there and nothing on this thread, or from your post, makes me think that that has changed dramnatically.

there clearly is an anti fascist momentum. And I am relieved that there is because fascists are organising in ireland to a greater level than i have ever seen. You have openly racist platforms tied up with what is still a powerful fundamentalist catholic pro life movement, you have former loyalists playing brown shirts in the 6 counties and you have clearly racist strategy on the part of government to diffuse social anxiety around health and welfare by blaming non whites. This has been the situation since at least Martin o Donaghue was minister back in the 90's. And it works, the referendum was an example. So if there is no anti fascist momentum, then there is no struggle against those who wish to impose some sort of ghastly white catholic benchmark for full participation in irish society. that is what irish fascism looks like and has done throughout the 20th century. And there is resistance to it, and much of it is conciously anti fascist. though one might only get it in trinity from the broken wndows in the gmb.

by operation indi freedom Fri Oct 22, 2004 18:43

"This has been the situation since at least Martin o Donaghue was minister back in the 90's"

What are you talking about? Minister of What? In the 1990's?

by Citizen Joe Fri Oct 22, 2004 21:38

It is presumptuous in the extreme to think that you can take on to yourself to decide who should speak or not.
Deep down I suspect you are really glad a misfit like Barrett exists coz he makes misfits like you look purposeful and significant. When as anyone can see really neither JB or the AFA actually are or are ever likely to be!

by old boy Fri Oct 22, 2004 22:16

sorry, john (not martin) O donohue was minister for justice when he stated that "95% of asylum claims will be found to be baseless", 4 or 5 years ago.

by Young Boyt Fri Oct 22, 2004 23:09

The figure is actually much lower, about the 75% mark

by veteran Sat Oct 23, 2004 19:56

Richard Waghorne: debater in UCD, classifiable as threatened due to his sexuality. And as far as I know, he abhorred the invasion by AFA.