Why Would Ireland Imitate the US or the 3rd Reich?

by Watchdog Tue Jun 15, 2004 02:33

Previous comment was pretty much on target...except for one thing. The smoking deal is no small thing at all.

Do the math.

* How many bodies in graves NOT because of tobacco smoke but from PESTICIDE, CHLORINE, and RADIATION- contaminated tobacco smoke? Note the subtle difference.

* Regarding corporate liabilities...how much would be an "acceptable" or average payout for causing ONE death? In US dollars...let's say JUST a million.

* How far shall we go back towards the days when tobacco began being contaminated with industrial pesticides? Let's be kind and set it at just 50 years...about 40 years after Dow cooked up chlorine...and loosed its by-product, dioxin, on the world.


So...(to just do U.S. stats.) THEY say that 400,000 die each year from something called "smoking-related illness"... though "smoking" is not a medical or scientific term.

Then...400,000 X 50 X 1,000,000 =
(20,000,000 dead) = $20,000,000,000,000.

That's TWENTY TRILLION DOLLARS (US) saved by the Cigarette Cartel (incl. pesticide, chlorine etc partners & insurers/investors) for ONLY deaths (not diseases)... in the U.S. ALONE, for only 50 years!
Is there that much money in the world?

Is there even a NAME for the dollar number that would result if the entire affected world was calculated in?

The "smoking ban" (that many of us help promote) SAVES the enemy, the very industry it's purported to be penalizing! Funny? Ironic anyway, eh?

This money, to whatever degree redeemable, COULD be used for Public Health care and Schools and Arts and Environmental protection & clean up...and for development of BENIGN crops and technologies....and for prosecution of the perpetrators of this global catastrophe.

IF we never get the 20 Trillion Dollars but just a maximum part Of it...fine. At least the industrial cartel will be stopped from continuing its mass poisoning of cigs and every other damn thing.

Smokers are our Canaries In The Coal Mine. What are anti smokers doing but Attacking the Canaries...while ignoring the Toxic Industrual Clouds that poison canaries and us alike.

The seemingly "wholesome" "anti-smoking" crusade (conducted by the corporate media and WTO and pesticide PR firms, et ilk) is a MASSIVE evasion of corporate liabilities and prosecution.

Whether one smokes or not, or likes smokers or smoke or not...this is HUGE, and it affects everyone.

Goals:
* OUT the bastards for contaminating the cigs, and failing to warn, and failing to list non-tobacco ingredients...especially toxins and carcinogens and burn accelerants and addiction-enhancers.
* Get proper compensation FROM them to go to unwitting victims AND public health programs and the like.
* Redeem the ill-gotten profits.
* Prosecute for INTENTIONAL mass-poisoning of people, without Informed Consent. (A Nuremberg point, remember?)
* NEVER AGAIN allow PRIVATE industrial interests to have sway in PUBLIC regulatory agencies.
* Only PLAIN tobacco smokes to be sold...unless an additive can pass independent tests for not contributing to safety/health problems.

Please remember that the dioxins and toxins and so forth thar are in cigs are NOT only in cigs affecting those gruffy smokers we all are supposed to hate. They hit EVERYONE. They are in EVERYTHING. Cigs is "only" the worst specific case because of a) the combos of all the things together, and b) the method of exposure....inhalation. The worst.

(IN any case, if a worker, for instance, happens to smoke but is damaged by on-the-job chemicals or rads or bio-organisms ...GUESS what will be blamed for the disease or death. Hint: it will not be the employing industry.)

These cig cartel gangsters are ALSO all over EVERYONE'S food...and air and water and medicines. PHARMS MAKE TOBACCO PESTICIDES. Capiche? To a great degree, they're the same sonsabitches that brought us to "war" on Iraq and so forth for MORE petro-pesticides, etc. This "anti smoke" deal is PART AND PARCEL of Globalization!!... blaming diseases on victims, exempting the industrial perpetrators, cutting funds for public health, extending control over every part of our lives, attacking natural plants in every area, distracting from corporate crimes, and so on.
Do YOU trust this entity, and Big Cig, to be part of YOUR (and your kid's) food, air, water and medicine delivery system? Some folks wouldn't.

by Garon Tue May 18, 2004 03:44

I think the author of the article is trying to point out the fact that the same satanic government that ran Germany also opreates in the U.S. They are called the illuminati or one/new world order. They want to destroy & enslave us & they use everyday items such as shampoo, toothpaste, processed food & even fluoride (which Hitler also used in the concentration camps to keep the prisoners quiet) they make it all appear fun with the bright colors & happy tunes they play while they hypnotise you. & what about all those synthetic fibers you're breathing in from the dust of your clothes? They make us sick with their products, then they poison us with 'medicine'. They are in the process of destroying the industry of natural supplements, vitamins & alternative health. They want to kill us (or at the least accelerate age) with their synthetic concoctions. You cannnot know that it is safe to use something on your body or ingest it unless you have produced it yourself , which is their big fear ie. being self sufficient. They keep us distracted with 'entertainment' & fighting with each other so we're too busy to see what they're doing to us. They want us all to drown in debt so we can scream for a solution. That solution is a one world currency. To go along with the one world religion & government. The tobacco scam is only a small part of it. The world is run by demons/reptoids/aliens & they'll lead you away from God into hell if you let them. Pray & ask Jesus into your heart & please dress modestly because if you don't then not only have you sinned but you are causing some one else to fall as well. Just because everyone is dressing immodestly doesn't mean it's okay. They are already way into their plan of enslavement & soon it will be too late. In australia you're not allowed to catch a fish without first purchasing a license. They feed the racial tensions & use the excuse that the asians are taking all the small fish illegally But they are secretly taking away every poor man's God given right to sustain himself from the ocean. It' s the trawlers that damage the environment. It's also law in australia that you must have your dog microchipped & if the pound picks up your dog with no microchip you must have one 'installed' as well as paying a fine for not having it to begin with & if you refuse to get it done they will not return your dog & it will be destroyed. How long until it's people that will be destroyed if they refuse satans' mark? It says in the bible ( you have to get one printed before 1964 because they have edited the truth) that this enslavement is a punishment for not keeping Gods' commandments. & that God will set us free like he did the israelites if we would just keep the commandments & statutes of God. We are living by man made laws which cause suffering & are also an abomination to God. We need to reinstate Gods' laws. Under his laws debts are forgiven and the land is rested. God has said that If people turn from homosexuality (& abortion) that he will give a cure for AIDS. Do you think this sounds stupid? Look on your dollar bill. It says 'New World Order' in Latin on it. The all seeing eye on top of the pyramid is a masonic/satanic symbol. The pyramid represents their structure- the illuminated (them) above the ignorant (us). There's also an owl in the corner- another satanic/masonic symbol. Anyway, I've said way too much.

by Another non smoker Tue Mar 30, 2004 01:36

'non smoker', you are just another troll. Your only interest in the smoking ban seems to be so you can use it as an excuse to have a go at indymedia. The fact is, as you will see from previous comments on this subject, here and on other threads, there is plenty of support here on indymedia for the ban.
But that does not mean that people here think the sun shines out of the butts (no pun intended) of the politicians. They could, and should, have brought in this ban sooner, but they held back due to the opposition from their publican friends.
Just because they get one thing right for a change, does not mean that they are not a corrupt shower of self-serving sleeveens.

by non smoker Tue Mar 30, 2004 00:00

Smoking ban is brilliant! Congrats to Government. Roll on the next project - curbing under age drinking. Freedom of choice for non smokers at last!
The government are to be commended for their foresight in bringing in the unprecedented smoking ban. The plaudits are flooding from all over the world. A quick analsis of news stories reveals that other countries are likely to follow the lead of our government. Isn't it great that we have a government who are prepared to put the greater good ahead of electoral gain! It is something that future generations will thank Bertie and Micheal Martin for. Fair play! Pity it took til now for someone on this site to acknowledge something postive done by the government. But it's all negative here. You'll probably be campaigning to bring back the cigarette smoke filled pub next. Just remember to give plenty of notice for that march so the whole country can turn out to laugh!

by Watchdog Tue Mar 16, 2004 22:38

* The word "smoking" is a problem. For the sake of medicine, science and law...not to mention public understanding...it is IMPERATIVE to be clear on WHAT is being smoked. The Corporatocracy tells us it's just "tobacco"...but it is NOT, by miles.
To blame "smoking" (and therefor the victimized smokers) for the plague of health effects is to IGNORE the part played by big oil, pesticides, pharms, chlorine, paper, and all the many others. Why would ANYONE be so kind to these industries, including the cig makers, by failing to indict them...or at LEAST publicize their presence and question them??

* If health is a concern to some (as it certainly is NOT to the industry-friendly officials) here's what needs to be done to minimize not only the health problems but to also minimize smoking itself:
a) DEMAND that the relatively few manufacturers remove the known deadly and addiction-enhancing ingredients....especially the chlorine adulterants as they are the source of HIGH levels of dioxin in typical products. This is the most efficient and least burdensome route, especially compared to the massive need for smoking police and courts and prohibitions and so forth.
b) DEMAND that all non-tobacco ingredients be publicized, even listed on packages... though this list have to be a long fold-out scroll of paper.
c) DEMAND that at least the suppliers of KNOWN deadly cigarette additives be scrutinized and compelled to contribute to pools for public health care.
d) DEMAND that cigarettes be made ONLY with unadulterated, plain, actual tobacco...unless an additive can be shown not to be harmful or to contribute to addiction levels. (I think that would be impossible.)

If these things are done, we will have prevented a repeat of Reefer Madness...the vicious, unconscionable, environmentally-devastating Prohibition of cannabis...hemp and marijuana.

If these things are done, we will have exposed the corruption of science and medicine which now, in cahoots with the chemical, pharmaceutical and other cig-related industries, work to blame "tobacco" (nature) or "smoking" (by unwitting victims) for what are unquestionably massive crimes by corporate interests.

We NEED to separate Tobacco Smoking from PESTICIDE-CONTAMINATED Tobacco Smoking. Has even one study of real or potential effects of PLAIN Tobacco been introduced in courts or other public forum? This is necessary in order to compare to the devastating effects of typical Dioxin Dowels.

Smoke bans are NOT about anyone's health...though that is the packaging for the campaign. Such things are always said to be "for our protection".
The bans are about:
** Protecting the cig makers from maximum,
rightful indictments and penalties and liabilities.
** Cutting as much as possible from Public
Health programs...so that the money can be used to subsidize corporate things.
** Distracting from industrial health damaging situations like nukes, pesticides, toxic waste, Depleted Uranium, GE "foods", mad cow, and etc.
** Making industry-friendly officials SEEM to "care" about our well-being.
** Creating new laws that allow privacy invasions on citizens...essentially, an expansion of the "drug war".
** Continuing the war on natural, unpatented, public-domain plants.
** Eliminating a natural competitor, nicotine, to a host of synthetic industrial drugs for weight loss, alertness, stress relief, digestive relief and even symptomatic relief for Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.

And... this "healthful" campaign MAY be part of Creeping Fundamentalism...if not Talibanism...in its effect on drinking in pubs and bars. It's a partial, stealth renewal of Alcohol Prohibitionism as once endured by the USA.

Whether we LIKE "smoking" or smokers or not...and the product adulteration notwithstanding...this is part of corporate war on nature. Note...it's sold to us as a war on "Tobacco" (a natural plant) NOT a war on mass homicidal manufacturing techniques (industry).

by Idiot Fri Mar 05, 2004 13:32

Some people smoke, some other people die. Booo hoooo.

by DR ZARKOV Fri Mar 05, 2004 02:39

Thar a bheith mícheart.

If you close down the big baccy companies and make smoking illegal you get an illegal trade run by organised crime. Read about Prohibition, twill give you an idea.

The only way to kill the tobacco trade is to kill the demand, by education, by putting warnings on packs, by making it difficult to have an opportunity to smoke, by protecting the health of non-smokers in public places.

by Watchdog Fri Mar 05, 2004 02:38

If we called cigs Pesticide Pegs, we might get somewhere.
Ireland is facing a fraudulent, distracting, victim-bashing "smoking ban" in pubs etc.
Maybe if more was known about the issue, other solutions may be found. This isn't about "smoking" by victims, it must be about homicidal manufacturing processes.
* Getting to know your Cigarette Industry *

http://www.griffin.peachnet.edu/caes/tobacco/handbook/worker-stand98.html

Here's an interesting site for those who may wish to question the character of certain pesticide firms....such as:

Bayer
Novartis
Drexel
Great Lakes Chemical
FMC Corporation (Philadelphia) (EIGHT tobacco pesticides on this list!)
Zeneca
Valent
Rohm & Haas (Philadelphia) (2 tobacco pesticides on this list)
Abbott (also maker of Death Penalty drugs)
Rohn-Poulenc
Fair Products
DuPont
Dow AgroSciences
Mycogen
Cochran
Agr Evo
American Cyanamid
and Uniroyal

This is about JUST SOME Tobacco Pesticides.

It is advice about how to not TOUCH their chemicals...yet, apparently, they and public regulatory officials don't mind if consumers unwittingly INHALE the residues in cigarettes...as long as consumers pay their own health care and funeral costs.

No CEOs from these firms have been brought to Congress or Parliament or court to testify.
No cig CEOs have been questioned about the safety of smoking residues of these pesticides, alone or in combination.
None of the Gov’t officials who permit this have been publicly quizzed.
And, commercialized media haven’t expressed opinions or conducted investigations.
**************************************
See also: http://ens-news.com/ens/apr2003/2003-04-25-09.asp#anchor2 <
Or: http://ipm.osu.edu/trans/043_252.htm

And: http;//ktc.com/~bdrake

by Watchdog Fri Mar 05, 2004 02:26

Thanks to "Weird" for READING the original posting. And "Eureka"... next round's on me for the "smoke-bahn" line. I plan to borrow it for personal use.

* Those who don't like others hurting them have a Priorities Imbalance Problem if they focus ONLY on victimized (deceived, secretly poisoned) smokers and NOT on the corporate entities that adulterated typical cigs with more toxins/carcinogens than you'd find in the average Waste Incinerator.
How easy to beat up on a generally powerless bloke with a smoke...while letting Big Cig and all its pesticide/fertilizers and ingeredients providers slide....not to MENTION their insurers and investors and gov't flunkies. Smokers are not just easy targets, they're the WRONG targets.

* Re/ the U.S. being fascist, even Nazi-like...is there any question? The Bush league is descended, by family and bizness links, from some of the worst parts of the old Reich.
Go to Rob't Lederman's site and check it out.
As they say...I'm not making this up.
http://baltech.org/lederman/

* To condemn "smoking" is to attack the victims, those uninformed, unprotected, insufficiently-warned and uncompensated people doing the smoking. What needs to be condemned and fixed is MANUFACTURING processes...and gov't regulation of industry.

Please stop blaming the victims, as the corporatocracy (including the WTO) wants. Blame the guilty parties...big cig, big oil, big pharms (pesticides & cig additives, big chlorine (paper, pesticides and additives), big sugar (12.3% of a Marlboro, boys and girls), and those in gov't who allowed this and profited by it.

And...do we WANT a new Prohibition of yet another (more or less) natural plant to add to the devastating prohibition of pot/cannabis?

by R Isible Mon Feb 23, 2004 22:27

The original post is pointing out that arguments for and against smoking are bizarrely linked to the issue of Hitler and the 3rd Reich. It (the post) makes the point that this creates a lot of smoke (ha ha) and noise which obscure the central point (to the poster's mind) which is that tobacco is adulterated by the tobacco companies.

An interesting point I'd have thought. "Dera" should go back, read the article and think before posting a "me too" and an attack on the level of debate on IMC.

As with everything on IMC, whether it's articles, editing or posting: if you want to make it better then just do it. This includes you "Dera", if you want to post under your own name then do it. If you want to raise the level of the debate then do it.

Don't whine about other people. Do it yourself.

by eureka Mon Feb 23, 2004 22:16

Nazis ... auto-bahns .... smoke-bahns ...

by Ray Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:26

"...while those who hate the smoke bans..."

seems to imply a little distance from them.

(Sure, its a silly argument anyway. The Nazis built the autobahns in Germany, which doesn't make Eisenhower or the people who built the M1 into Nazis)

by kokomero Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:02

The poster may not have tried to link FF with the Nazis but their post did try to label anti-smoking bans as facistic and indirectly to undermine anti-smoking activism on the grounds that nazis didn't like smoking either:

"We have the neo-Nazi elements using this info to show what a swell guy Adolph was...while those who hate the smoke bans use the info to show how fascistic the bans are."

From this type of reasoning it is possible to infer almost anything about anybody, for instance the authorities in the US are nazi's because they have imposed a ban onj smoking in New York.

by Ray Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:03

"Neither side pays attention to what's IN a typical cigarette besides tobacco...such as the chlorine, pesticides, radiation, untested additives of all kinds, carcinogenic fibers and dust from filters and so on.
Both sides, therefore, give a Big Gift to the cig industry, all their suppliers, all their investors, all their insurers AND all their sociopathic friends in government."

Did anyone read past the headline? This doesn't strike me as an endorsement of smoking, or an attempt to link FF with fascism. You'd want to watch those knee-jerk reactions...

by Dera Mon Feb 23, 2004 02:48

silla - spot on. to compare FF to nazis over the fact that hitler adhored smoking is like saying that the joe higgins is stalin because they both are men with hair.

this is silliness and the work done by the original poster would be much better off spent researching something nearer home and tangible.

on a wider note the level of debate on indymedia is absolutely and unbeliveably appaling infantile - i left a few months ago and came back today to have a look, its a complete disgrace. could i recomened that the IMC editors rethink their policy of anonymous posting and perhaps move to a situation where at the very least you have to register with a legit email address.

Politics.ie and sluggerotoole.com both have this system and the level of debate is much higher, unfounded slanderous post are deleted and repeat offenders are banned for a set period.

by golda Mon Feb 23, 2004 00:08

yet another silly lefty attempt to make out that FF are fascist.
judging from some of the dillusional paranoia on this site, such as the paranoia surrounding the tracking of mobile phones, i really think its time some of these upper middle class comfortable backrounded lefties got out in the real world and stopped all their conspiracy theories.

by amused Sun Feb 22, 2004 20:40

Smoking is a fredom not a right.

People have a positive Right not to be made sick by other people (where at all unavoidable)

The fact that passive smoking causes cancer is a proven fact, not an opinion.

Hundreds of thousands of people suffer from illnesses which are excarbated by smoking.
bronchitis, emphasemia , asthma etc tc

So one persons freedom to smoke is removing another persons human right to be healthy.

And so the smokers must defer to that.

People fighting for change in society no matter how much we despise this right wing cabinet must support them on this very just legislation.

by out to lunch Sun Feb 22, 2004 19:07

... but as far as "Why Would Ireland Imitate the US" is concerned, well isn't the bloody county already more or less completely americanised and a economic dependency of corporate America ......

I mean it's not as if modern Ireland had any sort of indigenous political or cultural identity worth talking about .....

by Steve Sun Feb 22, 2004 17:17

Why post frivolous crap like this in the first place? Fianna Fáil are anti-smoking. The German Nazi Party were anti-smoking. One parallel which means nothing overall. I'm a smoker, but the ban doesn't really make a difference to me since I don't go to pubs on a regular basis.

What's the whole point of this article? To manipulate suggestive people into seeing FF as pseudo-fascistic? Keep in mind that, a few police brutality incidents aside, this country has a 100% flawless human rights record and has never had a government with a more right-wing stance than moderate nationalism.

by BigMac Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:11

This posting is enough evidence for the fag packs to carry the message:

WARNING! SMOKING CAUSES BRAIN ROT AND ENCOURAGES CONSPIRACY THEORIES

by Air lover Sun Feb 22, 2004 02:43

I suppose you're the type of idiot who smokes while standing in the bus queue, oblivious of the annoyance you are causing to other members of the public. Even when smokers are not actually smoking, the smell off their clothes is disgusting. And you have the nerve to accuse non-smokers of being nazis. It is you smokers who are the nazis, you have no consideration for others.
The smoking ban has my full support. The government have been gutless in not implementing it when they said they would. What right have you to blow smoke near me in the pub, polluting the air I need? How would you feel if I spat into your pint?