Information for Migrant Parents of Irish citizen children

national | rights, freedoms and repression | press release

Friday September 05, 2003 17:38

by Ali la Pointe - fite dem back

provided by the Coalition Against Deportation of Irish Citizens (CADIC). The Coalition is a network of organisations and individuals who are concerned by the recent steps of the Irish Government to deport the families of Irish citizen children. The information provided does not constitute legal advice and should not be taken as such.

PLEASE NOTE: The Information in this leaflet is
Information valid as of 5th September 2003
1. On 23rd January 2003 the Supreme Court ruled that the Minister of Justice did have the power to deport a non-Irish national, even if they were parents of an Irish citizen child. The Court confirmed that anyone born in Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship and the ruling does not and cannot change this fact. The Supreme Court also ruled that when the Minister considers the deportation of parents of an Irish citizen child, the Minister must consider each case on its individual merits and due process must be followed. The constitutional rights of the Irish citizen child must be considered and the rights of the immigrant parents and any other siblings must be respected.

2. The ruling has no impact on the decision of whether to recognise an individual as a refugee, or the existing status of those already recognised as refugees in Ireland or on those with permission to remain on other grounds such as employment or study etc.

3. On 19th February 2003 the Minister decided to remove the process whereby an immigrant parent could seek permission to remain in Ireland solely on the grounds that they were the parent of an Irish citizen child. Any application for leave to remain made exclusively on the basis of a person being the parent of an Irish citizen child which had not been determined by the 19th February appears not to have been processed any further. The situation of such parents will now be determined on a case-by-case basis upon the making of representations by them to the Minister.
4. Letters from the Department of Justice are being sent to parents whose residency applications remained pending on 19th February 2003. There appears to be a number of different letters. Two of the first types of letters are:
(i) Individuals who had been in the asylum process or were undocumented migrants when they made their application for residency, receive letters informing them of the Minister's intention to deport them and are informed that they have three options: to leave Ireland voluntarily within 15 working days of the date of the letter, to make themselves available for deportation or to make representations in writing within 15 working days of the date of the letter, setting out the reasons why they should be allowed to remain in Ireland.
(ii) Individuals who were legally resident in Ireland at the time they applied for permission to remain on the basis that they were the parent of an Irish citizen child, simply have their application and supporting documentation returned to them and receive no further information on the options open to them or any further process they might be able to engage in.
5. The Minister of Justice has failed to provide clear information on what exact procedures immigrant parents of Irish citizen children should follow now that he has removed the right to apply for leave to remain solely on the grounds of being a parent of an Irish citizen child. The Minister is however as a minimum bound by the ruling of the Supreme Court to consider the situation of each family on its individual merits.
5.6. Where the Minister proposes to make a deportation order, under Section 3 (6) of the Immigration Act 1999, the factors that must be taken into account by the Minister are:
(a) The age of the person
(b) The duration of residence in Ireland
(c) The family and domestic circumstances of the person
(d) The nature of the person’s connection with Ireland, if any
(e) The employment (including self-employment) record of the person
(f) The employment (including self –employment) prospects of the person
(g) The character and conduct of the person both within and (where relevant and ascertainable) outside Ireland (including any criminal convictions)
(h) Humanitarian considerations
(i) Any representations duly made by or on behalf of the person (eg references etc)
The Minister will also consider:
(j) The common good;
(k) Issues of national security and public policy
7. If you receive a letter telling you that the Minister is intending to issue a deportation order against you and you want to make representations to the Minister for permission to remain, we recommend that you seek legal advice if you can. Unfortunately if you cannot afford to pay the costs of a solicitor it may be difficult to access legal advice. More information about this is provided at paragraph 14.
6.8. If you do want to make representations to the Minister about why you should be allowed to remain in Ireland, it is very important that you provide as much information as possible about the factors listed at point 6 of this information leaflet as they apply to yourself. For example, you should make clear how long you have been in Ireland, how you have integrated into Irish society (membership of clubs, voluntary work etc.), what contributions you are already making to Irish society and/or would be able to make if allowed to enter employment, and you should provide information relating to your health and personal circumstances you would face if you had to return to your country of origin.
7.9. When you are providing information about your family and domestic circumstances, and the nature of your connection with Ireland it is very important that you provide as much information as possible about the situation of all of your children and in particular any Irish citizen member of the family. In the event that you have to make a representation, you should be able to provide the following information:
· The number and ages of children in the family
· How long the children have been in Ireland
· How the children have integrated into Ireland – for example, have they been in school, or play groups, are they members of sports teams or other social clubs?
· Do the children have any special connection with Ireland, for example an Irish god parent or other relatives residing in Ireland?
· Whether the children have any special needs – either in terms of medical care, or education needs?
· The language skills of the children – would the children have problems integrating in a non- English speaking country?
· Would there be a threat to the children in the country to where they might be deported – e.g. from health conditions, conflict, laws, cultural practices?
· Is the country to which the child could be taken a party to international human rights treaties to which Ireland is also a party – in particular the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child? (Ireland is a party to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which obliges the government to place the best interests of the child at the heart of decisions, which will impact on the child.)
8.10. In the case of an Irish citizen child, it is very important to highlight the impact which the child’s Irish citizenship might have if the child were to leave Ireland with his/her parents and siblings. Therefore it will be important in the written representations to make clear:
· The nationalities of both parents of the Irish citizen child: Is one of the parents an Irish or an EEA national?
· Do the parents share the same nationality?
· What are the guardianship rights of each parent in relation to the Irish child?
· What other nationality could the Irish child be entitled to claim by virtue of their parentage?
· What are the rules on dual citizenship in the national countries of the parents?
· Will the Irish child be entitled to enter and reside in to the national countries of the parents?
· Will both parents be liable for deportation to the same country or would deportation lead to the separation of the family?
· If the child moves to a country as an Irish citizen, will the child be able to realise their right to a proper education, to decent health care, to protection from abuse etc?
· As a resident non-national in the national country of the parents, will the Irish child be able to access free or subsidised public education and health services?
· Are there laws or cultural practices in the national country of the parents that could breach the constitutional rights of the child – eg female genital mutilation, forced marriages?
· What will the capacity of the parents be to provide for the Irish citizen child in another country – for example, in the case of a single parent of an Irish citizen child, would the parent have difficulties finding work or child care for the Irish citizen child while the parent was working?
· Is there an Irish consulate in the national countries of the parents?
Please note that if you have a child born in Ireland, in order to ensure that their citizenship rights have been fully asserted it is recommended that you apply for a passport for the child, if you have not already done so. However, you should be aware that possession of an Irish passport could have implications for the child if s/he were to be taken to another country, or the national country of his/her parents.
9.11. In some cases, parents of an Irish citizen child who had applied for asylum, were advised by state agencies to withdraw their application for asylum and to seek permission to remain in Ireland on the ground that they were the parent of an Irish citizen child. If this was the case, it is important that you include this in your representations and make clear who advised you to withdraw your application for asylum.
12. You should also include information in your representations about the human rights situation in your country of origin – existence of an armed conflict, torture, practices such as female genital mutilation etc. Information on the human rights situation in your country may be available from Amnesty International, Irish Section (42 Fleet Street, Dublin 2 Tel: 01-6776361) and the following websites: http://www.amnesty.org, http://www.hrw.org, http://www.irinnews.org.
13. Please remember – the Supreme Court decision has no impact whatsoever on the right of an individual fleeing persecution to seek asylum. An individual who had withdrawn from the asylum procedure, and continues to have a fear of persecution in their country of origin, may still re-apply for asylum. If the individual withdrew before their first interview, they may make a new application in the Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner. If an individual withdrew after a first interview, but before an appeal, having received a negative decision at first instance, they may only make a fresh application with the consent of the Minister, under Section 17(7) of the Refugee Act 1996. To do so, they must write to the Ministerial Decisions Unit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and request that their application now be considered. Once an individual has re-applied for asylum, or re-opened an existing application, the individual may then register with the Refugee Legal Service (RLS) or seek alternative legal advice.

14. Migrant parents of Irish citizen children will not receive assistance from the Refugee Legal Services (RLS) in making their representations or in seeking to re-enter the asylum process and will not be granted legal aid. There appears to be no proper basis for refusing legal aid in such cases and FLAC (an independent legal organisation that campaigns for right of access to legal services) will be seeking to challenge such refusals. If you have already received a letter and tried to seek legal assistance from the Refugee Legal Service or a Law Centre, but have been denied, you should contact FLAC (Tel: 01 – 67942399).

15. There are a number of organisations who may be able to provide further information to you depending on the particular circumstances of your case:

If you need information on the Asylum and Refugee process contact:
Irish Refugee Council, 88 Capel Street, Dublin 1. Tel. 01 – 8730042; Fax 01 – 8730088 or
Refugee Information Service, Tel. 01-838 2740; Fax 01-838 2482, e.info@ris.ie
If you need information on other Immigration matters contact:
Immigrant Council of Ireland, 42 Upper Dorset Street, Dublin 1. Tel: 01 – 8656526 ; Fax: 01 - 874 9695
If you need further information on legal representation or access to legal aid contact:
FLAC, 13 Lower Dorset Street, Dublin 1, Tel: 01 – 67942399; Fax: 01 - 8745320
If you need further information on the Rights of the Child contact: Children’s Rights Alliance, 13 Harcourt Street, Dublin 2 Tel: 01- 405 4823; Fax: 01 - 405 4826
If you need further general information on human rights, the European Convention on Human Rights, or your constitutional rights contact:
Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Dominick Court, 40 – 41 Lower Dominick Street, Dublin 1 Tel : 01- 8783136; Fax: 01 – 8783109

Other Important Numbers
Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform Tel: 01-6167700/1890 457032
Refugee Legal Service Tel: 01-6310800/1800 502400
Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner Tel: 01 -6028000

5th September 2003

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Comments (36 of 36)

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ur iq is weenie

by Badman

Fri Sep 05, 2003 19:12

ur opinyuns are stoopid. Ur a moron. Ur sientifick ideas do not indikate the presenss uf a master race. if wi cun breede away ur simpil mind, it wud bi gud.

As for wanting to survive as a people, if that associates me with you in any way, I'd be happier surviving in a cross-species alliance with orang-utans. Racist morons - piss off.

by KJIFAN

Fri Sep 05, 2003 19:51

The one who says "you are stupid" is the stupid himself! You say i'm stupid, but i'm not. I have found juche idea! I have found my calling and it is juche socialism! You dont understand me because you havent read comrade Kim Jong Ils books. But dont worry, you have the opportinity to do so

You can find these immortal books online here:
http://www.cnet-ta.ne.jp/juche/defaulte.htm

I recommend you should read atleast "socialism of our country is a socialism of our style as the embodiment of the juche idea" by leader Kim Jong Il.

I'm doing a big favour to you, so you should take my advice and educate yourself cause you are the stupid, not me!!

"KJIFAN" = "Hunter"?

by Earth Citizen

Fri Sep 05, 2003 20:48

It should be obvious by now to all who access this site, that "KJIFAN" and "Hunter" are 90% likely to be one and the same person. If not, they are certainly working in collusion to undermine this site.

It is likely that they are also using other identities, for the purpose of discrediting indymedia.

They are only interested in promoting their sick fascist/racist/pro-imperialist agenda.

KJIFAN/HUNTER

Fri Sep 05, 2003 20:59

I am not Hunter. I dont know who he is. I am not even irish, my first language is not english, english is the language of imperialist! sorry to say this but its true!! I am not from DPRK also, i hope someday i would be citizen of democratic peoples rebulic of Korea, i am just a person who thinks juche idea is the best idea there is and i want YOU to know it too. I hav no wish to be pain in your ass, it is just that i have seen the light and i want other people also see that light. It is the light of anti-imperialism, anti-capitalism and the light of immortal juche idea!! Leader Kim Jong Il truly is the leader of internatinal working class! But now my comrades, i have to stop writing here because tomorrow i go where internet there is no internet! It is a place where also socialism is needed!

I may be right

Fri Sep 05, 2003 21:09

You won't write here? Have I touched a raw nerve? Did I get it right? Now you want to scurry away and try something else,some other tactic/identity!

I now think its 98% certain that "KJIFAN" = Hunter.

KIMFAN is a govt spy

by Lone Gunman

Fri Sep 05, 2003 21:10

Hey,hey,hey KIMFAN.How many babies did you kill today???
Is it true that you are all starving there that you have to eat foteuses?Is it true that ONLY approved Govt officals are allowed accesses to the internet?And it is true isnt it that you all must worship at a big statue of your glorious leader who could charm the birdies from the trees or some such nonsense?BTW how is the opium harvest this year.Ol kim jong is forcing your peasents..sorry,happy workers on the land to plant opium?
BTW if you are GENUINELY N Korean translate this into Korean. "I can express a free opinion in North Korea.I say our leader Kim is a fat,fool and a fraud."
Should be no trouble for such a democratic open friendly place .I know what it is. do you?

MOVE to N KOREA

by Dell Gribble

Fri Sep 05, 2003 21:16

If you think the damn communist S£%^T hole is so great why dont you move there????You will be the first idiot trying to get in there while everyone else is trying to get OUT.You will proably be the only lunatic in one of the State mental hospitals.

A govt spy, probably. But which government?

by ???

Fri Sep 05, 2003 21:19

Nth Korean? Irish? British? US?

truth

Fri Sep 05, 2003 21:23

You misundestood me. I truly mean what i say. I'm going home tomorrow and i live where there are no intenet connections. Where i live is much colder than there in Ireland. I am not Hunter, i still dont know who he is. But what i konow is this: Kim Jong Il is the leader of anti-capi.. SHIT!! I dont belive this even myself. I was just trying to make a point, and the point is that anti-capitalist movement is from ass!! It is old shit in a new package! But i was honest in one thing, i'm not irish, i am going tommorrow home where there are no internet etc. I am a troll, but my mission is not just to make trouble. My mission is to make you blind people see that all -isms are fuckdup! Anticapitalism is stupid!!! All isms are stupid! Indymedia is stupid because it says it is "anticapitalism". Trolls are needed because stupid people dont see the truth without them. You grow up and you learn, your learn it the easy way or the hard way, it doesnt matter.

Spy with

Fri Sep 05, 2003 21:25

A serious problem with reality more like.But proably just a "disaffected youth" somwhere in the world.

The end of all that KJI nonsense?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 21:32

Obviously the trolls are going to have to come up with a new tactic.

The End??

Fri Sep 05, 2003 21:51

Tactic is the same how we basicly killed the indymedia in ------- (guess what country i mean). We had no organized thing etc. But we did it by showing them how stupid they are. This Kim Jong Il -fan thing is basicly the same thing. It shows how stupid whole anti-capitalist movement is by using their own anguage. It is no use to say "you are stupid, your opinions are stupid" it will have no effect at all. You have to put yourself in the position of anti-capitalist and then put 20% extra and you will show whole world stupid they actually. I'm sorry to say this, because infact there are many people who are actually compassionate and good people in movement but they are brainwa´shed to believe this bullshit. I'm a troll but i'm not bad human being, believe this or not, but i'm really good person to those who i love. i just have weird sense of humour and and also i resist everything i see wrong in this world like indymedia is. It is sick, that is my opinion, sorry to say this to you indymedia activist, but you should take a long holiday or something......

Wrong?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 22:29

So you think it is wrong to have a public forum where people can put their opinions forward freely and engage in honest debate. You also want to destroy such a forum. You have been exposed as a fraud.

please the end of all this crap.

by iosaf

Fri Sep 05, 2003 22:47

read the pamhplet again. (the top of this lengthy page)
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60969

or read the announcement prior:
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60631

Indymedia has never been destroyed in any country. For those interested in the lengthy history of indymedia there is indymedia study group for indymedia types where after multiple rites of passage you learn things like that.

France went off line for a while.
Finland is offline for a while.
When Indymedia goes to Korea, we may perhaps get to the root of this Korean shite. Meanwhile, you may read http://www.japan.indymedia.org if you like.

Lesson for us all

by sp member (personal capacity)

Fri Sep 05, 2003 22:56

Every user of indy media should take note of this thread.
KJIFAN has played at black ops for weeks provoking angry responces until now when it has been exposed.
We should all consider are others playing the same role on indy media, perhaps not quite as strange as KJIFAN but doing their worst to spread lies and un-necessary disunity?????

NO MORE LIES NO MORE BLACK OPS

Black Ops?

by >>>>>Seáinín

Sat Sep 06, 2003 01:45

Black Ops? what do you think this is? Are you living in a Tom Clancy novel?

You gobshite.

pathetic or paid trolls

Sat Sep 06, 2003 02:30

If I hated the users of a website I would not waste my energy on it. So why is "seainin" spending so much time and effort here? It is obvious that "seainin" and his ilk must either have an obsession with this site, or else are being paid to disrupt it.
So, which is it, "seainin"? Either way, you are a pathetic loser.

Japan link

Sat Sep 06, 2003 02:49

The link iosaf gave did not work.
Try
http://japan.indymedia.org/

You have to join before you can post on it, which helps to foil idiots like seainin, but many users of the Indymedia ie would regard that as too restrictive, and would regard it as giving in to those who want to restrict and ban everything.

black ops

Sat Sep 06, 2003 08:33

Seainin
I would accept that when I used the term black ops I should have taken the time to explain what I mean.
I am trying to describe the activities of those who spread lies and set out to provoke disunity to cause the maximum damage.
It is a fairly common term in the north where the British gov have been past master in carrying it out.
I suppose the word spin is a bit more up to date.

All that said I hope the point is clear, we should fight against all attempts to destroy indy media.

NO MORE LIES NO MORE SPIN

Black ops and other things

Sat Sep 06, 2003 13:18

From most of the postings here it ranges from Anarcho,republican, extreme leftism,Anti Americanism,coroporataism,etc ,etc.Or some groups are using this place as a propaganda mouthpiece.Usually small,agenda driven,or more sinister groups with large finincial backing.Possibly posted by people of immature minds both politically and otherwise.One thing I have noticed about this happy little gathering is that anything resembling critique of anyones glorious movements results in comments of right wing,fascist[the most overused word on this board BTW],troll,idiot accusations being thrown about.
Anyone who has right wing opinions is immediately hammered here.Well sorry,if this is supposed to be democratic and open that means differing opinions have the right to be aired.
Even if they are repugnent to you.If you want to argue properly with somone,defeat their points of view with facts not insults.
A differing opinion and arguement should be able to bolster your held views or cast them in doubt.
Other thing people could do with here is a sense of humour.
KIMFAN if it was a way of showing anything,it would be a way of showing how brainwashed some folk can become under ANY type of totalitarian leadership.But it was weak in two details.Anyone of knowledge of NKorea would know that the internet is totally banned to the subjects of that State,and also when challenged KIMFAN NEVER posted anything in his favourd tounge.Peculiar.

Anyway try stop and thinking about your arguements in future.BTW It pisses off me and no doubt others.Those who post whole chunks of writing to defend or advance their arguements.Post a damn link.If I want to go deeper in your arguement I'll read it then.

Seanin and others,[proably include myself here ]are playing Devils Advocate.Hope it makes some people sit up and realise that there are two sides to the arguement.Otherwise you might as well have a closed group of your intrest where you can post each other self congratulory messages.Dellusional and sad!

Really?

by Devils advocate

Sat Sep 06, 2003 13:48

I thought you were just repeating the right wing soundbites that we have all been spoon-fed by the global corporate media. You might think that it's playing devil's advocate in a brave way to make us sit up and take notice of other points of view, I think it's regurgitating the same simple minded arguments that we have all heard a million times on CNN/BBC/SKY or whatever. Seanin merely takes these simple minded tidbits and presents them in an extremely offensive manner, the lone loonie, on the other hand, is a bit more entertaining; his obvious mental problems and wierdo militia mindset are at least worth a laugh or two.

Well said, Gunman

by Anthony

Sat Sep 06, 2003 14:08

I don't agree with most of your views but I agree with a lot of the above statement - especially about the overuse of the word "fascist". I'm not a big contributor to discussions as I tend to spend too long thinking about the different sides of an arguement before coming up with my own take.

Gunman may be on the right but he does tend to make interesting points (which often seem to be backed up with facts) and I think devil's advocates are a good thing - though Seanin is usually too abusive and ends up being more of a troll.

"Anyway try stop and thinking about your arguements in future.BTW It pisses off me and no doubt others.Those who post whole chunks of writing to defend or advance their arguements.Post a damn link.If I want to go deeper in your arguement I'll read it then."

I agree completely. Indymedia would be a much more accessable medium for news and opinions if everyone took this advice.

right wing views

Sat Sep 06, 2003 14:44

putting forward right wing views on indy media is not the the question here.
As far as I can see the difficulty is people who aim to shut indy media down and those who use lies as a form of argument.

Devils advocate

by Lone gunman

Sat Sep 06, 2003 18:46

Just made my point all the more clearly.QED
So what is your suggestion Mr Devils Advocate for somthing that is neutral in the media? [BTW lone loonie is about as original as facist these days.]Could you not come up with somthing more original? Like a new handle as well?That is very original,using a phrase I used in a previous post. BTW how do you come up with the idea that I am in a Milita?Never espoused it although I do agree with the concept of citizens militas.Just don't agree with the jerks and obvious frauds that are running them in the US.
But making that point just shows your soundbites of leftist ,liberal,havent really got a clue about the subject Clintoon ass kissing Kalifornian & NYC media.
Sp member. I do get the feeling that if somone was to bring up the subject of holocaust revisionism,or extreme pro lifing.They would be promptly eaten alive here.But as one Nazi once said and it was espoused by the Commies as well about the people swallowing the little lies ,they will have no trouble swallowing the big lie.

"I might totally disagree with what you say.But I will fight to the death for your right to say it"
[Socrates,I think]

fao- ???---------------------- on the nature of "cyber-mental-spam-imperialism"

Sat Sep 06, 2003 18:47

sorry for sloppy link. you can still get through to the site through this interesting page:

http://japan.indymedia.org/newswire/index.php?limit_start=190

it brings you back to the newswire of home articles during a particularly disturbing period of "cyber-mental-spam-imperialism". Scroll to the bottom the come back.

A non philosophical term for the effect of sustained user behaviour of open newswires.

"cyber-mental-spam-imperialism"
is curious, because it is contributes to the feeling that "secret agents of the right" are paid to post on indymedia rather than just be happy reading it. This means that the technological developments of the security forces let us remember bought with tax-payers money and after marketing by security corporations is wasted. The police, the secrets, the big spooky computers that may monitor and analyse every phone call, email, and site are cast to the side so some mythical rightwing paid troll can leave you provocative comments.

What a waste of the 3 trillion dollars the spooks cost us a year. If you think about tranquily over a piano sonata a few mushrooms and good cup of cocoa you will realise that
"cyber-mental-spam-imperialism" is a user effect, your divisions, your petty rivalries and non-universal jokes are coming out and splitting you. You yourselves produce
"cyber-mental-spam-imperialism".

goto check the link to japan, where indeed in the end the user contributions from outside japan (people with something to say but in the wrong language or way) forced the team to start an ID log-in. Something that really is not so desirable.

if you click on the article you get an upload page specifying that japanese is the most compatible tongue for japan.

we wait for Korea.

Lone Gunman: pot or kettle?

by Phuq Hedd

Sat Sep 06, 2003 19:28

QUOTE: One thing I have noticed about this happy little gathering is that anything resembling critique of anyones glorious movements results in comments of right wing,fascist[the most overused word on this board BTW],troll,idiot accusations being thrown about.

ANSWER: Well given that many of the people that are sufficiently motivated to argue fringe-politics are actually fascist in some respect and believe in fascist constructs (like capitalism) perhaps you should accept this as a valid criticism, a description of these beliefs as pertaining to a corporatised model of society? Just because people say something again and again doesn't make it untrue. The more judicious can sit back, steeple their fingers, purse their lips and discourse on the exact secret recipe that has to be followed before "fascism" is admitted, but I think that many of the accusations of fascism are well-founded and you do yourself a disservice by assuming that they're just a knee-jerk reaction. We live in an authoritarian, non-democratic society dominated by corporatism and many of the "mainstream" opinions reflect this: your "provocative" posts for example are a spastic regurgitation of incoherent assemblages of these "thoughts'. You may see yourself as a "devil's advocate" a brave loner bucking the trend, but in reality you are merely a hurler on the ditch, stirring the pot, sniggering and disrupting the exchange of left-wind dialogue. Anthony may be fine with that, but I don't come to indymedia.ie to read or hear disputes which stay at the level which you, Drbinoche, and others consistently drag them down to. For all I know you're a very, very clever little left-wing boy cunningly larding his provocative posts with grammatical and spelling errors, or you could genuinely believe some of the stuff you write, or you could believe some of it: I don't care. Your effect is that you disrupt a site which is a refuge from the mainstream. It would be best (from my humble point of view) if you would confine yourself to the Irish Times message boards, boards.ie and other venues for argument for it's own sophomoric sake. Anthony misses the point that indymedia.ie is not intended to be a discussion board, instead it should be a news source. The comments section is intended to be a place where clarification and discussion of the the news takes place, where extra photos and text are added. It is not intended to be a "you leftists are all stoopid and anarchism/marxism/whatever is a stoopid idea'. Both you and Seanin (or people using those group names) have done this multiple times and your high-flown defense of "free speech and democracy" is at odds with this behaviour.

QUOTE: Anyone who has right wing opinions is immediately hammered here.Well sorry,if this is supposed to be democratic and open that means differing opinions have the right to be aired.

ANSWER: Well sorry, if this is supposed to be democratic and open that means that the hammering of right wing opinions has the right to be aired. Are you a member of the SP or something? Such NIMBYist logic is hilarious.

QUOTE:Even if they are repugnent to you.If you want to argue properly with somone,defeat their points of view with facts not insults.

ANSWER: As a single example of this I refer you to your own comment "Fatman Moore is a gobshite" which is one of your more refined contributions:
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60748

QUOTE: A differing opinion and arguement should be able to bolster your held views or cast them in doubt.
Other thing people could do with here is a sense of humour.

ANSWER: Well I laughed when I thought you were for real. Now you're just a pain in the arse.

Phuq head its your opinion

Sun Sep 07, 2003 01:32

Sorry, do you actully OWN this board??? So who the Hell are you to suggest who or what can post here?
Indymedia is a refuge from the mainstream.Indeed it is and it is supposed to be an open,democratic,newsmedia posting site.However it is used by lefties and other munchkins to rant against America or the West in general.Or to post ideas about conspiring to commit crimes against property or persons. See Shannon demos,vandalism of property etc.Stuff that wouldnbt be tolerated on any normal media board.I have yet to see one "right wing" article being posted here .

Why are you so worried that any dissent might upset the good left wing simple sheeple who might come here to drink from your font of leftwing wisdom?
If you cant accept some dissention.May I suggest yur own closed dictatorial board where you have absolute control.
Since I doubt you will ever have control in real life over anything.
Going by your extremly long winded post. [In which I think you are just trying to be a smartarse.]But anyway. I accept that right and left wing posts or opinions should be hammerd here.Otherwise you just have a bunch of people preaching to their respective choirs.But that seems to be a feature here

If you are going to quote me please quote My FULL quote and opinion. But that is a leftie trick of arguement isnt it?Attack your opponent on such things as Grammatical error and spelling.My God!How pathetic can you get?

I still stick with my opinion that Micheal Moore is a fat gobshite.Who made plenty of money bitching about his homeland and way of life.If he doesnt like it and has some sort of principle ,why doesnt he fuck off to his beloved Canada? [Sorry if you have a pin up poster of him over your bed.But whatever cranks your sexual crank!]

If you are so upset at my postings why do you reply to them?So I really must be worrying you and your ilk,if you go to such lenghts to read and reply to them.Worried ,or unsure of your position in your Weltanshaung?
I am glad to see you that think I am a pain in your arse.Be careful that you dont get a good hard kick there.It could really upset your thought process.

Turned down again?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 01:56

And to what do we owe Loony Gunman's latest temper tantrum?
He must be just in from the pub after being turned down by whatever female he made an inept pass at.

But he's right

Sun Sep 07, 2003 02:57

Fatman Moore IS a gobshite.

Apology

by >>>>>Seainin

Sun Sep 07, 2003 03:52

Sorry, its this vodka I've been drinking, I don't really want to be rude, can't help it.

"how do you come up with the idea that I am in a Milita?"

by A psychiatrist

Sun Sep 07, 2003 15:49

Well Lonely Loonie (which is my clinical diagnosis btw), this was never actually stated, what was claimed was that you had a "wierdo militia mindset", but your jump to deny the claim of belonging to a militia is revelatory of an underlying inadequacy complex. You always wanted to be Rambo and John Wayne didn't you? But you weren't man enough to join the army, were you, or maybe you did but were bullied and have always felt guilty that you didn't live up to your ideal of the free-wheeling, free-shooting red blooded American male. No matter what the exact details are, the feelings of inadequacy come across crystal clear. Your fond and wistful references to the details of the destruction caused on human bodies by various weapons is the clearest sign. I'd diagnose some type of dysfuctional abusive sexuality, that conflates associations of violence with sexual pleasure and guilt, maybe you spent some time in prison and were taken advantage of by the bigger, burlier men, or maybe you abuse your children and pets.

Keep it up; a fascinating case-study.

Well mr A Shrink

by Lonr gunman

Sun Sep 07, 2003 22:05

Sorry to tell you I was in the army. Sorry to tell you I think you are a little boy/girl who is a wannabe smart arse.
Try this for size if you are a head shrinker you will know said this.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of emotionally and sexually retarded individual".

Sun Sep 07, 2003 22:09

Sorry to tell you I was in the army. Sorry to tell you I think you are a little boy/girl who is a wannabe smart arse,and not suceeding very well.

Try this for size if you are a head shrinker you will know said this.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of a emotionally and sexually retarded individual".

?????
or whoever.
Nah I scored.Thanks for asking. Did you score are you jerking off again???You 'll go blind if you do it too much.

Well said, Phuq Hedd

Mon Sep 08, 2003 16:52

Gunman touched on two topics that I feel strongly about.

1) I think that the terms facism and fascist are at times bandied about too frequently. I'd be worried about the scenario of the boy crying so that if/when we do point out a regime as being fascist or heading down that path we're not taken seriously as the word has already lost its grave meaning. ( I similarly think that Sindo journalists overuse and devalue the term "Stalinist" when they refer to trade unionism.)

2) The idea of stopping to think before publishing a comment.
There are so many off-the cuff comments where people just type without thinking. In some cases, people don't even bother taking the time to fully read the comment or article they are responding to. The result is a snowballing of worthless posts.

He also advocated making use of the fact that Indymedia is actually on the WWW and that sources can be linked to rather than cut-and-pasted.

When I read a newspaper, I want both credible reporting and interesting editorial. With Indymedia, the reporting is very much outweighed by the editorial / opinions. It took me some time to get used to the Open Publishing system on Indymedia but I now value it as a means for enabling people to get their story out there. But it _does_ rely on users taking responsibility for their contribution and I'm aware that this is often not the case.

Since first coming to Indymedia, I learned to accept the fact that that the medium is abused and that many treat it as a bulletin board and others use it like a chat room with their quick off-the-cuff comments. After becoming accustomed to these negative consequences of Open Publishing, I can now (relatively) quickly skip over the crap and I know that certain users (such as Phuq Hedd amongst others) can be relied upon to make interesting and worthwhile comments.

If there is to be a flood of opinion, I'd like to see some diversity in it. I've written Seanin off as a troll but Lone Gunman occasionally made useful, informative posts. The purpose of my comment above was to show that well-written and considered posts are appreciated and to encourage (in a small way) Gunman and others to keep it up. Often when a devil's advocate makes a good case from a right wing point of view, someone more articulate and knowledgeable than me counters their arguments very effectively. Unfortunately / predictably, Gunman's reply to Phuq Hedd went back to getting in personal digs and he has today further discredited himself by being snidely abusive towards Caimhe in Iraq.

Right-wing comments do "disrupt a site which is a refuge from the mainstream" but I can live with that if the comments are intelligent or thoughtful.

"Indymedia.ie is not intended to be a discussion board, instead it should be a news source. The comments section is intended to be a place where clarification and discussion of the the news takes place, where extra photos and text are added. It is not intended to be a 'you leftists are all stoopid and anarchism/marxism/whatever is a stoopid idea'."

- Agreed. This point just can't be emphasised enough.

Thank you Anthony

Mon Sep 08, 2003 18:44

For a insightful comment[for once on this board]about how it should be used or abused. You refer to my snide and abusive comment Re Caomihe in Iraq.It was not intended to be that, rather a warning to them.
They are civillians[mad in IMHO] in a combat zone,and are in a society that really still classes women as a chattel,and especially they are Western women who are classified as harlots anyway by the more fundamentilist religions now infesting that area.
Now,saying you are peace activitists,or whatever is not going to cut the mustard with some of those fanatics.They see woman,from West,proably an infidel from the CIA,or whatever.BANG!Allah U Akbar.We have killed two more Westerners for Allah.
OTOH. These two are now pissing off the Military command,and proably God alone knows how many GIs or spooks.So how easy is it for them to be killed in a "pro Saddam faction" ambush? That is a Black op.
Benefit,two Pain in the asses of peacenicks are dead.Discourages others from coming to Iraq,blackens the local gureilla forces,and actually helps voices and friends of Iraq or whatever with publicity to their cause.
This has been done in El Salvador,Nicarauga,Coloumbia and N Ireland.
As for digs of a personel nature with Phuqhead,or others well I give as I get.

breaking news from "Unison group".

by iosaf @!·~ I had two chickens

Sun Sep 21, 2003 14:36

11:32 Sunday September 21st 2003
(C&P as cookie is needed for the Irish Independent)
A former asylum seeker has joined the list of candidates for next year's local elections. Nigerian-born Dr Taiwo Matthew will contest a seat in Ennis, Co Clare. Dr Matthew, who recently secured official residency in Ireland after living in the community for more than four years, said he did not consider himself an outsider. He is currently studying two post-graduate programmes: at the Royal College of Surgeons, and also at UCD's Graduate School of Business. Dr Matthew believes he can bridge any gap between the Irish and ethnic communities in Ennis. He also urged other non-nationals now in Ireland to contest next June's elections. "We have so much diversity in Ireland now that we can harness it and take advantage of it to move ahead," he said.

larger than a currach and as a dangerous.

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