Anti-war soap dodgers are proven to be liars

by TheIdiotsAreTakingOver Sun Aug 31, 2003 17:16

How is that the conspiracy theorist's story? If he topped himself (which is the official theory), there was clearly something very wrong, whether he supported the war or not.

by David Sun Aug 31, 2003 17:22

I thing most anti war protestors are much more concerned with the thousands of iraqis who were murdered by "the coalition of the willing" (sounds like a confession to me) then they were about some guy who was driven to suicide by allegations that he might be unpatriotic.
It is very disappointing (but very predictable) that the whole "sexing up the dossier" affair would be spun to a meaningless tribunal to investigate who leaked what information (and even more bizzarely, who revealed the identity of the person who leaked the information) whilst totally ignoring the contents of the information that was leaked.

The "independent enquiry", much like Irelands own tribunals of enquiry was never intended to change anything. Its specific design was to be establishment newspaper fodder for a few weeks while giving the guilty a platform to spout their propaganda unchallenged. The fact that the British government appointed the person to lead the enquiry is an immediate indication of it's lack of independence. There was no cross examination of Blairs rhetoric and all the media could say about it was how good Tony was at reciting his prepared speach from memory whilst appearing slightly earnest and displaying the appropriate level of quiet indignation at the idea he might be accused of any wrongdoing.

It was never going to change anything.
Dr Kelly was a scapegoat for Alister Cambell to turn the issue of an illegal invasion based on utterly dishonest reasons into an personal attack on a disloyal civil servant. His plan was working very well until Kelly died.

by yawn Sun Aug 31, 2003 17:44

soap dodgers,how clever........

by sunday Sun Aug 31, 2003 18:18

people had their opinions regarding the war before they even knew who David Kelly was. The David Kelly affair isnt one on the right and wrongs of war but to do with the inner workings of the labour party. How the labour party makes decisions and of the spin and dealings of the intelligence community. david kelly's personal opinion is of limited importance to wider debate. His professional opinion regarding his questioning of Downing Streets pre-war smoke screen is of interest though. Its also of interest how Downing street dealt with the whole issue.

you also have to get over the fact that anti-war doesnt translate as anti-american or pro-saddam. Dont try to over-simplify the issue with scapegoats and conjecture.

by nosey parker Sun Aug 31, 2003 19:13

The story was in the Observer not the Guardian .They are not the same newspapers (although they're controlled by the same trust)and had diferent editorial positions on the war.The Observer supported the war and now has to justify that stance to its overwhelmingly antiwar readership.
Seeing that rooster has raised the subject of left wing conspiracy theories, here's a republican one. When the grand wizard of the orange order (Saulters was it?)condemned Tony Blair a few years back for being disloyal to his orange roots because he married a catholic ,Blair didn't deny that he was an orangeman ,as any sane person would do if he wasn't one - he just said something along the lines of ,,,,,,,,I married my wife because I love her . Now Lord Hutton,ex Diplock judge ,unionist .Bet your life he's an orangeman himself.

by Ciaron - ex-Brisbane Catholic Worker Sun Aug 31, 2003 20:00

Get your facts right baby. I made self managed vegetarian soap for a living for years...not like Brad Pit in Fight Club...CW soap still produced by the Brisbane CW "has no live bosses, no dead animals in it".

by Precision Man Sun Aug 31, 2003 20:07

Updated casualty figures:
http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

Ten Appalling Lies We Were Told About Iraq:
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16274

The Bush administration's Top 40 Lies about war and terrorism:
http://citypages.com/databank/24/1182/article11417.asp

by Aidan Sun Aug 31, 2003 20:17

I think suggesting that a bloated corrupt porn obessed psychotic dicator was "the leader of the anticapitalist movement" was in breach of our editorial guidelines.

The bit about all posts being factual covers it.

by Seáinín Sun Aug 31, 2003 21:14

Well you might as well shut down this site right now because over 99.9999999999999999% of the crap written here consists of hysterical anti-American ranting without even a fig leaf of truth.

Don't worry though, you'll alaways have Seáinín. I have made it my personal mission to carry the lamp of truth into the darkest recesses of the Stygian gloom which is Indymedia.

by sigh Sun Aug 31, 2003 21:42

as a crusader for truth means the truth is doomed.
He has yet to contribute a single piece of information that couldn't be traced back to bush apologist bullshit.. but then, everybody knows this already

by ??? Sun Aug 31, 2003 22:40

Just in case anyone suggests that we are being "anti-American" see what USA citizens have to say on the matter:

http://www.buzzflash.com/premiums/bushlied.html

http://www.buzzflash.com/bushlied/

by Righteous Pragmatist Sun Aug 31, 2003 23:13

The recent assassination of Ayatollah Al-Hakim beloved by Iraqis and given a martyr's funeral was a Muslim cleric returned after exile in Iran to aid the reconstruction of his country after the 30 year tyranny of Saddam Hussein. He died because he advocated co-operation with U.S. forces. The perpetrators have been arrested by U.S. forces and Iraqi police. Two were Saudi nationals and the others former henchmen of Saddam. The two Saudis were apparantly Al-Quaida terrorists. This shows that Islamic terrorists are in presently in league with Baathist remanants who attack both moderate Iraqis and U.S. forces who liberated the Iraqis from the evil Saddam regime.
Did this alliance emerge in the months after the fall of Saddam? Hardly.
Saddam is well known to have funded the Palestinian terrorists who regularly blow innocent Jewish men, women and children to pieces. He gave santuary to Abu Nidal the notorious Islamic terrorist who along with Ilyich Rameriez Sanchez "The Jackal" organised countless terrorist atrocities over the decades. Iraqi agents met Muhammed Atta, the leader of the unit who commited the 911 attacks, in Hamburg before the fateful journey to the U.S. to begin pilot training.
American, British, French, German and many other intelligence services, the United Nations, who passed sanctions and nearly 20 resolutions against Iraq had good reason to believe that Saddam Hussein had a weapons programme if not actually produced weapons including thousands of tonnes of biological and chemical agents and radioactive material useful to produce "dirty bombs." The 45 minute claim was a rumour but originated from a high level Iraqi source within the Saddam regime not to mention the two sons in law of Saddam who fled the country only to return with promises of mercy from their loving father in law who prompty murdered them.
Dr. David Kelly belived whole heartly that saddam had the means to produce vast amounts of chemical and biological agents at short notice but disputed the 45 minute claim. Stock piling of biological and chemical agents would not have been practical since they deteroiate over time however he did not discount Iraqis doing this.
He said that Iraq was an imminent threat to world piece not withstanding the muderous genocidal regime existing there.
He foolishly spoke to Andrew Gilligan and mouthed off his doubts about the 45 minute claim. This being a matter of national security since this was exactly the point that raving radicals who did not want to fight a war would use to undermine public support Blair quite rightly made sure his name was made public so that he could not accused of a "cover up."
The continuing controversy is merely a political battle among fueding New Labour Party politicians. Blair has been leader of the New Labour since the days of Neil Kinnock. Political biological clocks are ticking. Gordon Brown and Robin Cooks' clocks.
The radicals in Europe and around the world are so desperate to stop the windfalls from the economic powerhouse presuading "the masses" that "capitalist greed" is actually beneficial. You see you left wing shit kickers can stand the fact that the U.S public live in a vibrant liberal democracy and enriched it without refering to Marx's and Engels' babbling.
In fact Iraq could be any country with or without WMD. If America chose to go after North Korea who admit to having WMD and are proven to commit appalling genocide exceeding Saddam's wildest fantasies the lefties would raise a hue and cry.
The real reason is not that you hate war. It is because you hate America for daring to actually believe its ideals: democracy, freedom, government of the people, by the people and for the people. Long live the land of the free and the home of the brave.

by ??? Sun Aug 31, 2003 23:38

.....and the people exposing the lies are the Americans themselves. Are THEY "anti-American"?

You Wouldn't Accept This Sort of Inept Lying From a Five-Year-Old.
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/08/31_duped.html

Reasons for IraqWar? We Got a Million of ’Em:
http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-vppin283431363aug28,0,1868383.column?coll=ny-news-columnists

by >>>>>Seáinín Mon Sep 01, 2003 02:37

Ludicrous hysterical ranting. It's so naff, if only you people could see it. Don't worry kids, one day the scales will drop from your eyes and you will see the world as it really is (like most rational, normal people do).

by Torque Wench Mon Sep 01, 2003 05:45

All that I took from the whole David Kelly affair was that the GOVERNMENT'S justification for going to war was somewhat exaggerated and in some places unfounded (which indeed it was), not that KELLY himself was anti (or for that matter, pro) war.
I don't think anyone could claim that David Kelly was some kind of spokesman for the anti-war movement. He just confirmed many people's suspicions about the government's justification of it's actions.
As for "righteous pragmatist". Everyone has different moral ideals and their own views of what's right and wrong - I'm sure those who genuinely believe that war on Iraq was justified, do so with as much integrity and sincerity as those who believe otherwise. I don't think, however, that anyone can honestly believe that the Bush administration was (or is) compelled by it's ideals. You say America is a democracy, but ever since Sept. 11 the American government has exploited that tragedy and used fear and coersion to manipulate its own people, to silence it's critics, to further it's agenda and to avoid any open discussion of it actions.
The Iraq war WAS an illegal war - there is no doubt about that. Someone said to me recently that one of the most defining characteristics of "democracy" today is it's willingness to sacrifice it's ideals to further it's own survival. That's seems to be very true of America at the moment.


"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg trials

by Anonymous Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:30

One way or another, God help the poor people of Iraq.

by Terry Mon Sep 01, 2003 15:59

The so called latest discovered statement by Kelly that:

After 12 unsuccessful years of UN supervision and disarmament, military force regretfully appears to be the only way of finally and conclusively disarming Iraq."

is mostly likely to be a fabrication, like the so called WMD evidence in the dossier.

Now that Kelly is no longer around to dispute this, all these wonderful discoveries for Bliar et al turn up. How amazing? Found in his notebook eh? What if someone wrote that in after he died. Wow!, now the government would never do anything like that. It's an outrageous suggestion they would argue. I argue it is normal for them. Spin doctors are employed solely to achieve similar effects day in and day out.

This reminds me of the George Holloway affair and the so called discovery of documents in Iraq (in the burning rubble) linking him to Saddam. And what do we know, when they had partially achieved their propanganda effect to discredit him and the antiWar movement, lo-behold! it was finally admitted by the powers that-be that indeed the documents turned out to be fake!

I also notice the way this so-called inquiry has hardly touched on the murder of Kelly. Yes that reads the murder. In typical style, the State and intelligence agencies manage to turn one of their dirty deeds into an opportunity to spread more lies and propanganda and get themselves off the hook.

The State is not human, it is basically a logical (legal or illegal) machine and has no conceptions of justice, emotional feelings or humanity. It is a parasitic structure sitting and feeding on all our other societal structures. To think for even a nanosecond, that it is even of capable of telling the truth or behaving morally, is a completely crazy idea.

by Righteous Pragmatist Mon Sep 01, 2003 18:41

If as you say the state is not a human person and is unable to behave morally for a nanosecond stop acting shocked that it doesn't. I mean if the state was actually listening to you it would change wouldn't it? It obviously doesn't so why are you complaining?
Maybe you should shut up?
The secret police have already got you on file and could knock down your door any second now! Better be careful.
I can hear them powering up the high voltage torture cables and dusting off the old eye gouging tongs! Do you know who you are dealing with?

by Proud Of My Irish Roots Wed Sep 03, 2003 14:18

I marched in Washington DC twice to protest the inevitable war in Iraq.You have no idea how grateful we are to have people from all over the world speaking out against the STILL illegal war in Iraq.On October 25,2003 there will be yet another march in DC and around the world protesting the illegal occupation of Iraq.I hope you will join us. For more info; www.internationalanswer.org Peace Out

by BlackPope Thu Sep 04, 2003 14:25 BlackPope at operamail dot com

could you answer us this one simple question:

At the recent press conference with Michael Moore in Belfast, in relation to an article in the Irish Times whingeing about Moore's book, the name 'Kevin Meyers' popped up. Moore asked, "Is that someone important?"

Please respond to this. Everyone else present just laughed uproariously.

Yours in pricking pretentious bubble(head)s, BP


PS: "my personal mission to carry the lamp of truth .." HAH-haha,hohohohooo!! Stop it, please, my stitches will rip.

by Terry Thu Sep 04, 2003 17:16

I just found this newsreport on the latest in the Kelly inquiry. It reports that high-ranking intelligence officers at the highest level blow the whistle on the case for war.

They point out how they objected to what went into the dossier, but their objections were overruled.

Full report at
http://www.jihadunspun.net/newsarchive/article_internal.php?article=74884&list=/newsarchive/index.php&
(Blairs Case For War In Tatters After Intelligence Officers Blow the Whistle)

Original source is the Belfast Telegraph