SHAME OF THE IRISH LEFT

by prisoner supporter Mon Jul 23, 2012 19:18

Good statement.

The likes of sp and swp are only concerned with parliamentary power and wsm is a theoretical society at best. nothing revolutionary about do-nothing theorists.

why is it that wsm,sp,swp are never on prisoner protests? its because they dont care.

the big task is not to try an win these groups over but for Republicans to become the revolutionary left.

by John Mon Jul 23, 2012 20:54

That article is a load of crap. If Diarmuid done any research he would of found that WSM members particular in the North, in Belfast and Derry, Cork and taken part in protests, pickets etc against ongoing selective internment and treatment towards republican prisoners. In fact one member is heavily involved in the Prison crisis group in Derry

I cannot speak for the rest of the left but this was a statement released by WSM last year in relation to this
http://www.wsm.ie/c/...berry-prisoners

Also covered in website
http://www.wsm.ie/c/...tice-everywhere

I dont think anyone from various shades of 'dissident republicanism' is in any position to lecture others whenever there is little unity amongst the prisoners and their representatives themselves

by Gearoid O Loingsigh Mon Jul 23, 2012 22:42

Yes, you may not speak for other groups but it is good of you to point out the WSM's position and participation. I include a recent link from the Socialist Democracy website as well. The SP don't go on prisoner demos or support the issue because they are two nationist and are happy with what they call British Sovereignty and the "British" sensibilities of protestants and always have been. They were absent during the 81 hungerstrike. The SWP, well that depends on which way the wind is blowing.

Diarmuid's real problem is not that the left doesn't support them, it is that the vast majority of what was the Republican base doesn't do so due to the influence of Sinn Fein. The sell out by the provos did not happen because of the left but due to the failings of the republicans. It is no use blaming the left for the failings of republicanism.

http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/Recent....html

by Diarmuid Breatnach - Personal Capacity Tue Jul 24, 2012 23:30

Prisoner Supporter: "the big task is not to try and win these groups over but for Republicans to become the revolutionary left" is your opinion but this has not to date come anywhere near success, in nearly 100 years during which various attempts have been made. It is my opinion that a revolutionary socialist organisation is necessary which is also decidedly anti-imperialist, anti-British imperialist first and foremost because they are the primary imperial enemy on our soil (in the same way that I would expect Latin American revolutionaries to prioritise opposition to US Imperialism).

John, I did do "some research" by active participation and if I missed the odd article in two years or the odd WSM activist involved in prisoner support, then I tender my sincere apologies. One of your comrades from Belfast told me they weren't involved there and I haven't seen the WSM comrades I know on the many pickets I attended in Dublin (except a few on one Marian Price demo, Derry). Do you really think those comments of yours refute my criticism of the organisations as lacking in support for the prisoners?
On an issue of "doing some research" you might reflect on why you inferred that I was anyone "from various shades of 'dissident republicanism'", when I am not. Interesting that a WSM supporter assumes a criticism of lack of support for Irish political prisoners must necessarily come from a "dissident republican".
If you wish to respond further I'd appreciate it if you addressed the arguments and the facts rather than try to de-legitimise mine (unfortunately another tactic all too common on the Irish Left) by assumptions about my ideology or political background upon which you can then cast aspersions.

Gearoid O Loingsigh, I have answered some of what you said above. Your link, though interesting, does not refute anything I said.
Thank you for telling me what you think my "real problem" is but I hope you don't mind if I repeat that it was the problem I actually addressed in that short article. There is another problem of the dissipation and fragmentation of revolutionary Irish Republicanism but I don't think anyone on the Irish Left should get smug about that. Such situation furthers neither the cause of anti-imperialism nor that of socialism which at least in Ireland, I believe, as did Connolly, are inextricably linked.

When a revolutionary is criticised, she or he should examine the criticism and see whether and to what extent it is justified. In the case that it should become clear that it is justified and that the extent be significant, the revolutionary option is to organise to change that. That holds for individuals as well as for organisations. The defensiveness exhibited in two of these responses in the face of the clear facts does not bode well for critical examination, much less change.
If my public attack has provoked that defensive attitude then I am sorry but two years of dirty protest and other protests before that was surely enough time to come to realise where the duty of a revolutionary in Ireland lies.

by James McBarron Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:38

WSM members in Cork city have participated in many of the monthly prisoner protests in the city. Solidarity Books (WSM bookshop) has provided a meeting space for the PSG group and stores their placards etc. There have been several articles in the Workers Solidarity and the website on the prisoner issue.

Your attack on the WSM does nothing to aid the prisoners cause and is more likely to make people disinclined to participate in in protests alongside you than otherwise.

The objective surely is to increase participation and support. Whilst the prisoner issue is important it is not the only issue the wsm supports and further the wsm is not a mass organisation with unlimited resources.

by wageslave - (personal capacity) Wed Jul 25, 2012 13:12

Diarmuid,
forgive me for pointing out the obvious but you are posting this article and lots more pro republican posts besides on a lefty / anarchist volunteer run website.

And we are of course most happy for you to continue doing so. Even when you directly insult us like this!! ;-)

Does that count as (patient!) support from left / anarchists perhaps??

by John(PC) Wed Jul 25, 2012 16:07

Apart from what James has just pointed out and I would like to ask, how do republican prisoner groups expect others to get involved whenever they are deeply divided in the prison themselves due to a range of issues from personal egos to tactics?

Indeed outside the prison there is little agreement or solidarity between republican groups themselves. Dairmuid, you have clearly not done your homework on this issue again and you might be better actually posing the question of how can we build the same level of support and mobilisation as the 1980/81 anti- H-block campaign?

As some previous authors have already alluded to the problem is not the alleged lack of support from the left but even the wider community and that goes for Belfast too

by Diarmuid Breatnach - Personal Capacity Wed Jul 25, 2012 17:29

and I can't help it if the only one to react is the WSM, so that the discussion is going on between us.
I certainly have no wish to negate the solidarity activity of anyone and if what you say about Cork WSM comrades is true then certainly, apologies. But does that reflect the organisation? If in Dublin, the capital city, I don't see the WSM on the picket lines then either Dublin is out of step with the WSM's policy on prisoner solidarity or Cork would be (to their credit).

I am not attacking the WSM but the organised Irish Left, of which yes, the WSM is a part. That is part of its importance which is why it is included.

And Wagelslave, I am not attacking Indymedia, so I don't know why you brought that up, nor am I posting anything pro-Republican (but interesting that you see it that way). I am posting pro-political prisoner and ANTI-IMPERIALIST material.

It shouldn't make any difference but it seems I have to make it clear that I am not an Irish Republican. Nor have I been since I first began to construct a conscious ideology. I am a revolutionary socialist and have in fact supported some actions called by the WSM as well as by coalitions of which the WSM were a part. I am not hostile to the WSM but I reserve the right to criticise shortcomings in any organisation and especially so when the issue is of serious importance.

John, I would dearly love to see the WSM (and the SWP and SP) on Dublin prisoner solidarity pickets as well as involved in building the unity that you ask for. I look forward to it.

The divisions among the Republican organisations themselves are concerning but do not serve as an excuse for anyone else's inaction. I do what I can about those too. A number of them are represented in the Free Marian Price Campaign (Dublin) which may (or may not) be a step in the direction of united agitation around all the prisoners.

Lastly, what's at stake is ultimately even greater than the issue of prisoners. Unless the division of labour between the Irish Left and Irish Republicans is broken, where the first mostly take on economic and social issues and the second mostly take on the struggle against British imperialism, we (all of us) are never going to overthrow our oppressors, domestic and foreign.

by Des - N Wed Jul 25, 2012 21:23

I find the idea of Adams and co. not to mention the 'dissidents' ever becoming revolutionary to be hysterically funny and then some.

by wageslave - (personal capacity) Thu Jul 26, 2012 01:56

"And Wagelslave, I am not attacking Indymedia, so I don't know why you brought that up, nor am I posting anything pro-Republican (but interesting that you see it that way). I am posting pro-political prisoner and ANTI-IMPERIALIST material."

Posting an article complaining that the left are not supportive of republican issues on a left / anarchist website that regularly hosts articles highlighting republican issues is (apart from being deliciously ironic!) mildly insulting to the volunteers who work here, some of whom would regularly support such issues in both cyberspace and meatspace.

I brought it up as concrete evidence that republican related issues DO get support from people on the left and anarchists. This website is concrete evidence of that. It's a left / anarchist run website and we host republican related articles alongside everything else. That's supportive isn't it??

Regarding my turn of phrase, there is nothing "interesting" about it.

I find it hard to understand how republicans on dirty protest in maghberry prison cannot reasonably be described amongst other ways as a "pro republican" issue. They are republicans, the article is supportive of them, ergo it can be described as "pro republican". The phrase is merely descriptive, not perjorative. Personally I don't consider the word "republican" as being an insult or an automatic negative. You added the extra meaning yourself because evidently you perceive things in that way. Well, I don't. It's just another article to me, but I had to refer to it somehow in order to discuss it. However I'm equally happy to use the descriptive phrase you provided that YOU seem to be more comfortable with.

Of course, you do realise that people could be forgiven for interpreting that phrase of yours as distancing yourself from republicanism. Pot kettle??

Indymedia DO support republican issues in exactly the same way as they support other left / anarchist / activist issues. By providing a website infrastructure where such issues can be highlighted in articles with minimal technical / financial hurdles.

And as I stated before, we welcome these articles and our past record of support speaks for itself. And we don't hide behind phrases like "political prisoner" or "anti imperialist". We accept republicans have a POV and that this has long been suppressed by other media, and still continues to get a systematic bad press. We support their right to express that POV here subject to our editorial guidelines same as any other article.

So you can't reasonably say republican issues (or whatever descriptive term you are comfortable with) don't get any concrete support from the left. Indymedia is one concrete case in point.

Personally I support efforts to highlight the plight of Marion Price and others and I agree that the left and republicans should follow the good example of Eirigi activists by supporting issues on the basis of right and wrong not on the basis of right and left. And we should not become puppets of "shame" politics or "PC" fashionable viewpoints. We need to overcome divisions and focus more on similarities if we are to grow strong enough to take on power effectively in this country.

by Gearoid O Loingsigh Thu Jul 26, 2012 03:55

Well Diarmuid half answered my post. Why is the artilcle not entitlled the shame of Irish Republicans as they are the one who have not come out for Marian Price etc.

However, I let slip by reference to Catalonia and the Basque Country. I lived in Catalonia for 7 years and the issue of prisoners was always to the fore for left groups such as the LCR and the MCC and the later fused group Revolta as was seen in the campaign around Nuria Cadenas who was imprisoned for having a text book on chemistry. One of the problems was that the group Terra Lliure demanded adherence and support for its methods in any campaign for prisoners much like the provos prior to 1981.

As for the Basques, the LKI and later Zutik (both trokysist) always offered their support and participated in campaigns on prisoner often in slavenly manner. Diarmuid don't blame the left for the failures of repubilcanism nor for the way in which their methods alienate people. The left has been there. it is not our fault that the republican base prefers to receive handouts from the quangos of the British State rather than protest.

by Diarmuid Breatnach - Personal Capacity Sat Jul 28, 2012 14:55

Wageslave, although my article criticizes (not "insults") "the Irish Left" and can be superficially seen as a criticism of everyone on the Irish Left, it is clear from the actual text that the target was the three organisations mentioned who form most of the organised Left in this country. However, it is true that the malaise does extend well beyond those three organisations. I have never attacked Indymedia. I posted in Indymedia precisely to catch the attention of the Left. I respect the work of volunteers at Indymedia.

You cannot deny the experience of standing on pickets for Republican prisoners in Dublin and noting that those standing alongside one are nearly all Republicans and that not one of person is there from the organisations mentioned.

With regard to the issue of the prisoners, they ARE political prisoners and they are also Republican and one can support them from a number of perspectives. I support them primarily because they are political prisoners, there as a result of some activity, real or imagined, in opposition to the imperialist occupation of this country. Nevertheless, I am not an Irish Republican and often need to make that clear because of assumptions made by others or to clarify my ideological position. You can accuse me of "distancing" myself (getting a bit nasty and personal here?) but the facts of my political activity don't bear that out -- to the extent even that some people on the Left seem to assume I am a Republican.

I am "hiding behind" nothing (more snidey comment?) -- my ideology is revolutionary socialist and anti-imperialist. That's what I describe myself as and I take my stands accordingly to the best of my ability. I am supporting the prisoners on the basis that they are anti-imperialist and not any other (except in some cases humanitarian also). And that's what I would expect from other socialists. And this is nothing to do with being "PC" (really, yet another snidey?) but with the absolute necessity of combining the class and national issues in order to have any chance of overthrowing this system.

As for the tactic of "shaming" being seen as counter-productive, well, perhaps. But will it result in less solidarity? Hardly.

Gearóid, the article is not criticising the Irish Republicans because it was directed at the non-Republican Irish Left. If you think that Irish Republicans are not supporting Marian Price or the prisoners, perhaps you can tell me the political background of those with whom I have been standing in pickets or marching with or in campaign meetings?

With regard to Catalonia and the Basque Country, some Left groups in those nations outside the left-sovereignist movements there have supported the prisoners but it is the big Left organisations of the Spanish State to which I was referring, which either did not even pretend to support or adopted a paper position of support without taking the necessary action.

I have no intention of blaming the Irish Left for any failures of Republicans, nor indeed to blame Republicans for the failures of the Irish Left.

by wageslave - (personal capacity) Sun Jul 29, 2012 03:38

Diarmuid

I accept your points as coming from the perspective of a revolutionary socialist. I just wanted to highlight that republican issues DO get some concrete support from the left, Indy being evidence for same. Nevertheless I do also accept that you have a valid point here.

But the real problem I see is more one of "shame politics". i.e. "PC" left activists don't want to be linked to past acts of violence by republicans by being seen physically standing beside them and possibly being filmed / photographed by the state or media doing so.

You said: "As for the tactic of "shaming" being seen as counter-productive, well, perhaps. But will it result in less solidarity? Hardly."

I think you misunderstood me. My reference to "shame politics" was intended to be a comment on the use of "republican shame" as a means to cause negative division and lack of solidarity between republican protesters and left leaning activists who would in practice have quite a bit of common social ground otherwise. And that tactic's success is manifested in practice by the lack of left "bodies" appearing at republican prisoner protests. (or for that matter protests vaguely related to "conspiracy theory" or even for animal rights) My comment was not a reference to your post being an attempt to shame the left into solidarity. (I'm sure they don't need that ever!! ;-) In other words, it was pretty much in line with your own points. It was not intended to attack your effort to highlight same. It was actually intended to support your assertion.

However, I just didn't think it quite fair to blanket the left/anarchists with the statement that there was no support for such issues. But I do agree that lack of physical presence by left activists on such protests is certainly a noticeable issue.

How can we overcome this "shame politics" issue? It's a tricky one. But people, if they think through the issue, should come to the inevitable logical conclusion that taking a stand against mistreatment of people such as marion price in no way necessarily condones past actions of the IRA and left leaning activists should perhaps make more of an effort to use this kind of logical thinking on the right and wrong of individual issues rather than just reacting on an easily manipulated emotional level to "shame politics", and, if you will excuse the phrase, maybe "bite the bullet" and give whatever support they can to such campaigns. Imperialism is imperialism.

However I can't see this happening overnight. The media has done it's job tarnishing the word "republican" all too well.

And the left are currently hypersensitive to media tarnished words like "republican" or "conspiracy theory" or "animal rights" or "terrorist"

And until this hypersensitivity to words, this pathological paralysis on certain issues driven by the fear of having it's image tarnished further by a servile media, is overcome and the left becomes a little more robust, we will still have a problem with the easy manipulation and control of the left and quite a few similar issues including proper street presence in solidarity regarding the mistreatment of these prisoners.

by Gearoid O Loingsigh Mon Jul 30, 2012 16:12

To answer your points Diarmuid, the large organisations on the "left" in the Spanish State that you now clarify you were talking about (would have been good from the start) are I presume Izquierda Unida, PCPE, PSUC, etc. These are organisations that are essentially reformist and do not have a position in favour of Indpendence for the Basque Country or Catalonia, that is the principal problem and explains why they didn't support the prisoners. Though as I pointed out the demand and pressure to support the prisoners organisations didn't help. I wouldn't attempt to justify the Hipercor supermarket bombing and any attempt to complain about prisoners conditions was frequently linked by the solidarity groups to just that type of thing.

As for who are on the picket line, well obviously they are Republicans, nationalists of some sort. My point is that the vast majority of the nationalist community in the north have turned their backs on them. The Irish left is tiny in comparison. You direct your article at this tiny Irish left and not at the community that should be supporting them, but whose leaders are too busy getting fat on the hand outs from quangos (though some manage to stay in shape by investing in holiday homes in Donegal instead of spending it on food and wine). This is a point that will not go away. The lack of support for Marian Price is a problem wider than the left groups that have no interest in the north.

by Diarmuid Breatnach - Personal Capacity Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:00

Thanks for the two responses above.

I think, Wageslave, that in the last paragraphs of my article I alluded to this "shame by association" fear among the Irish Left. You say that "The media has done it's job of tarnishing the word 'republican' all too well." But to me that is yet another point of criticism of most of the non-Republican Left, that it appears unable to take a stand against this "tarnishing" and to plot an independent line of policy and action in this area according to what is right and what is necessary.

I agree with your final paragraph and would go further -- revolution in Ireland, at least led by the current organised Left, is a far distant prospect as long as that Left is unable to set the propaganda of the bourgeois media aside and take its stand on principles of revolutionary solidarity.

Gearoid O Loingsigh, if you return to my article you will see that I specifically mentioned the "Trotskyists and Communists of Izquierda Unida", which I would have thought was a pretty clear indication of who I meant. However, no matter, we are in agreement on the nature of their stand.

I didn't ask you to "justify the Hipercor supermarket bombing" and nor do I justify it. Revolutionary struggle is not a tea-party, as someone said, and many things occur, some correct and some wrong. It is no valid excuse of revolutionaries to justify their desertion of the field because of "that type of thing."

Not all "who are on the picket line .... are Republicans, nationalists of some sort" -- I am neither. That the previously strong community base of militant resistance in the Six Counties has been eroded, deactivated and splintered (although it is reforming and growing) is no excuse for us on the Left and if "the left groups .... have no interest in the north" then that is yet another cause for shame. Also an indication of how short-sighted they are, for it is clear to most that any revolution in Ireland would have to be a whole-island one.

I hope that this attitude on the Irish Left will change and a good start would be to see them supporting actions in solidarity with the Republican prisoners.

by Spartacist Fri Aug 10, 2012 19:21

The following article was published in Workers Hammer in Spring 2009:
"British troops out of Northern Ireland now! -- Defend Irish Republicans against state repression!"
http://www.icl-fi.org/english/wv/935/ireland.html

It gives details of how the Socialist Party and SWP both supported the pro-imperialist, anti-Republican rallies on 11 March 2009, shortly after the Real IRA attack on the Massereene British Army base.

Excerpt:
...
Socialist Party: Union Jack “socialists”

While the Taaffeite Socialist Party in England was up to its neck in a reactionary crusade for “British jobs for British workers”, its sister group the Socialist Party in Northern Ireland played an equally reactionary role, lining up behind British imperialism and the Orange state in whipping up a chauvinist frenzy against the “terrorism” of the Irish nationalists. On 11 March the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions called a pro-imperialist, anti-“terrorism” rally in which Loyalists, clergy and trade union bureaucrats united in condemning the Republican attacks on the army and PSNI. The Socialist Party was highly visible and distributed a leaflet titled “No More Killings!” (dated 11 March), which said: “The killings by the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA of two soldiers and a policeman should be roundly condemned by every section of the working class movement”, adding that: “The killings in Antrim and Lurgan are a reactionary attempt to divert the attention of workers away from the class issues that bring people together by stirring up sectarian division.”

This chauvinist organisation’s idea of “bringing people together” is unity under the Union Jack — whether leading chauvinist anti-immigrant strikes in England or pandering to Loyalists in Northern Ireland, such as former paramilitary killer Billy Hutchinson whom they hosted in their meetings in the 1990s. The leaflet said not one word against the British Army, either for its butchery in Iraq and Afghanistan or in Northern Ireland, which is hardly surprising given that the Socialist Party refuses to call for the withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland. Rather they view British imperialism as a force for “democracy”.

The Socialist Workers Party (SWP) also supported the pro-imperialist, anti-Republican rallies on 11 March. Addressing the Derry rally, the SWP’s Eamonn McCann said:

“It’s worth recalling that it was protests by ordinary people that gave the spur for the peace process that ended 30 years of armed conflict between the mainly Catholic Republicans, who want a united Ireland, and Protestant Unionists backed by the British state. Time and time again people took to the streets to push the process forward when establishment politicians were blocking it.”
— Socialist Worker, 21 March

Indeed the likes of McCann and the trade union bureaucracy did mobilise the unions in Northern Ireland and peddled massive illusions in the imperialist “peace deal” because, like the Taaffeites, promoting British imperialism as a force for “democracy” is what their programme boils down to. Thus the SWP welcomed the British troops being sent to Ireland by a Labour government in 1969, obscenely declaring that: “The breathing space provided by the presence of British troops is short but vital. Those who call for the immediate withdrawal of the troops before the men behind the barricades can defend themselves are inviting a pogrom which will hit first and hardest at socialists” (Socialist Worker, 11 September 1969)....

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:18

..and you monopolise 'republican' and 'nationalist' to equate with reactionary random acts of violence that continue to justify to many nationalists and republicans on both sides of the imperial partition the very armed presence you claim to deplore. None of us want our kids and grandkids bodies wrapped in your green flags. Nor do we want our cousins over the water wrapping theirs while the real culprits laugh and thank YOU for making their divisions flourish.

Knowingly or not, you serve only the interests of MI6 and the securicrat budget-hunters..

You show all the insight of the poor uneducated gobshite 'useful idiots' that have filled the trenches and graves of imperialism for centuries.

Wave the right butcher's apron and they pull triggers to order.

I won't impugn your motives(yet)but suggest you consider my point before replying.

by Spartacist Wed Aug 22, 2012 15:04

Free Marian Price!

http://icl-fi.org/english/wh/219/MarianPrice.html

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:28

..but 'republican' assassination squads will only create more Marian Prices.

I don't buy into the martyrological road to a healthier society.
As I said, it rings hollow and simplistic.