Egypt Colludes with Israel in Siege of Gaza

by Mike Novack Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:34

Following the 1948-49 war until after the 1967 war Egypt was the occupying power in Gaza. For nineteen years it was Egypt keeping the Gazans confined to refugee camps.

During that time period Egypt and Israel were technically in a state of war (but most of the time a "cease fire" prevailed -- except say during the 1956 war)

Would you have considered the harsh treatment of the Gazans by the Egyptians and the West bank Palestinians by the Jordanians during those 19 years to have been becuase of "collusion with israel"? If not, then why would you consider that the cause now? During those 19 years it was the Egyptians and Jordanians and not the Israelis who kept the Palestinians from freedom and being able to organize ther own state.

THIS IS IMPORTANT. A complete and total end of the Israeli occupation and control over the external boundaries of Gaza and the West bank will not solve the problems of the Palestiniansand their new state unless they could count on friendly/helpful relations with Egypt and Jordan. Or are you expecting the new Palestinian state to have open and friendly relations with Israel? (that's really too much to expect, isn't it?)

What I am saying is that were you a Palestinian, based upon history (those 19 years) how confident would you be about how helpful Egypt and Jordan would be?

by Justin Morahan Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:56

You are missing the point.

A besieged people, the people of Gaza, battered beyond all belief by Israel in the recent holocaust, still under siege by Israel, need humanitarian aid urgently.

Israel is denying them humanitarian aid.

Egypt, by not allowing in humanitarian aid to Gaza, stands accused of colluding with Israel in this shocking, perverse, inhumane action.

by Naomi - Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall Thu Apr 30, 2009 14:35

"During those 19 years it was the Egyptians and Jordanians and not the Israelis who kept the Palestinians from freedom and being able to organize ther own state" : Absolutely true, same as Israel is the "Only Democracy in the Middle East," is not the worst violator of UN Resolutions and International law, doesn't "occupy Palestine"- just exercises its property rights in the area gifted by God some 2,500 years ago, etc, etc.

by Mike Novack Thu Apr 30, 2009 15:19

Please --- I was by no means suggesting that the Israelis were not blocking sea access to Gaza (since they do not surround Gaza, they would be under no OBLIGATION to allow access via Israel --- again, whether they SHOULD allow such access another question).

I was objecting to the term "collude"

Collusion implies cooperation, a kind of joint venture, not two parties acting the same way toward a third party each for reasons of their own. The distinction is important when planning strategies against that behavior.

You may of course try to present evidence that the current "unfriendly" behavior of the Egyptians toward the Gazans is in fact the result of "colllusion" with the Israelis and not simply a continuation of the way the Egyptians were acting toward the Gazans before they made peace with Israel. It certainly wasn't "collusion" between 1949 and 1967 (agreed?)

This is really important when we consider the likely situation of the Palestinians assuming that we can get the Israelis to completely withdraw from the West Bank and give up all control of the OUTSIDE borders of the presumed new Palestinian state Gaza-West Bank. This new state will probably not have friendly relations with Israel and so the border between it and Israel might be closed AND since Israel would be surrounding neither portion we won't be in a position to demand that Israel allow access via its own territory (our demand NOW depends on "occupation" status). If the Palestinians could count on good relations with the Egyptians and the Jordanians, all well and good BUT (and this is a big but) the previous history indicates that this might not be so for reasons which aren't "collusion with Israel".

Don't you think investigating/understanding those reasons important? That pretending the only problem is "collusion with Israel" gets in the way of that?

by Vincent Thu Apr 30, 2009 16:08

Here we are once again being shamelessly treated to a bucket full of complete and utter tripe by Mr. Novack.

Of course Egypt is colluding with Israel, they are working together with the single common aim of undermining Hamas at every possible turn. They both stand to lose out terribly when Hamas makes any slight political , military or diplomatic gain. Both Israel and Egypt share the common foes of Iran, Hizbollah and Hamas. They collude against them.
The US support Egypt with billions of aid in order to collude with Israel and the US in trying, desperately and in vain, to bring about their vision of the Middle East. Israel and Egypt continue to collude in the mass punishment of the civilians of Gaza in order to bring about the downfall of Hamas and in a wretched hope that one day they can get their PA cronies back into Gaza.
To be precise and to the endless shame of the Egyptians that is all Egypt and Israel do, they collude.

Please Mr Novack give us all a break from your incessant organ grinding shenanigans.

Show a tiny bit of human compassion for the Gazans who are being used as pawns and cannon fodder in a horrific war against Hamas that has no sight in end.

by NN Thu Apr 30, 2009 16:36

Please don't get me wrong. My heart, soul and solidarity goes out to the palestinian people, and in my opinion what is, and has being going on in this part of the world is absolutely terrible. I certainly think of it as genocide, but it has not been, and is not holocaust.
The left seem to throw out this word without understanding its meaning, or refering to genocide as a holocaust.
So far there has only been one holocaust... The Holocaust, WWII.
The holocaust was industrialized genocide, and in my opinion the worst thing that has ever happened. we have two words:- Genocide & holocaust because they are two different things. Similar, but different enough to warrent a diffrent word for what happened to the Jewish, Roman, and homosexuals as well as antifacists in WWII.
Please lets not use this strong word so quick, as we will take away from its true meaning. I don't want the holocaust to disappear into his-story to be misunderstood or forgotten about all together.. We owe it to the dead to not forget them, and how they were killed. So we can make sure that it can never happen again.

by Margie Thu Apr 30, 2009 17:00

If the people of Ireland are kind enough to contribute medical equipment to the people of Gaza it is not clear to me why they need to go through unofficial channels to deliver it, via Egypt instead of sending it via the UN as all other aid is being sent.

T

by Susan Fri May 01, 2009 12:47

Dear Margie,

People are entitled to send charity aid to Gaza or anywhere, at any time they wish. There are not many places however where the charity aid is withheld from the suffering people in order that their pain should be prolonged and exacerbated in order to punish them. There are not many places on earth where something like that would be allowed to happen.

Welcome to Gaza.

by Danny Kaplan Fri May 01, 2009 20:04

John Ging, head of the UN Relief and Works Agency in Gaza, says Israeli restrictions on goods and the US-led boycott of Hamas have prevented basic goods from reaching Gaza: “Today the money is out there in pledges, and the people of Gaza continue to subsist in the rubble of their former lives, and the attention of the world has sadly moved on, which compounds the despair that people feel.”

by Danny Kaplan Fri May 01, 2009 21:05

Browsing the web further, it's becoming glaringly and alarmingly self-evident that Israel is deepening its experiment in evil and slow genocide in Gaza with farmers shelled working their land yesterday and today, aerial attacks on the dribbles of food coming through the tunnels with Egypt:

International Middle East Media Centre : Israeli tanks stationed at the Gaza borders opened fire at Palestinian farmers on Thursday midday near Gaza city. Local farmers said Israeli tanks fired a number of shells at the famers while working in their lands near the borders, no injuries were reported. The famers added this is the fourth time this week that the army fired shells at them while working on their lands near the borders.
http://www.imemc.org/article/60189

Press TV : Israeli fighter jets strike tunnels across the Gaza Strip's border with Egypt to further tighten the noose of hunger around the blockaded enclave.The air strike on the first of day of the new month came as the international community's silence drowns out its calls on Tel Aviv to lift the almost two-year siege on Gaza (Related Link).

A Palestinian child seeking food in the ruins of what used to be her home

by Mike Novack Fri May 01, 2009 22:00

"International Middle East Media Centre : Israeli tanks stationed at the Gaza borders opened fire at Palestinian farmers on Thursday midday near Gaza city. Local farmers said Israeli tanks fired a number of shells at the famers while working in their lands near the borders, no injuries were reported. The famers added this is the fourth time this week that the army fired shells at them while working on their lands near the borders."

(just so you understand where I am coming from -- the NEXT bit about the Israelis bombing some cross border smuggling tunnels is correct (and reported the same way by both sides).

OK -- WHY am I saying "don't do this"? The problem with sticking one OBVIOUSLY fishy report into a list of things you are reporting is that your enemies can use that to call into question the rest of the list. So if you have three "good" items for your list and you know of a highly questionable item, DON'T add that 'bad" one. It doesn't strengthen the list as whole; it makes it weaker.

You don't know WHY people would say the "tank shelling" report smells like a three day fish? You don't see the problem? We see the Israelis acused of all sorts of nastiness but even their worst enemies don't acuse them of being lousy shots. Did you believe that there was some Israeli tank gunner so incompetent at his job that he (or she) could have fired several tank rounds AT a group of farmers and the result was "no injuries" (you don't have to hit with an HE tank round, just come close and shell fragments (shrapnel) wound and kill). Or a gunner's loader so incompetent as to be feeding in AP rounds when HE rounds were called for.

So what was described here COULDN'T be what happened (that is NOT saying that there couldn't have been farmers in a field and a tank firing shells at something, not them, and obviously no near enough to them to injure anybody (except by emabrassment -- and those of you who have ever been under fire will understand that).

by Vincent Sat May 02, 2009 11:27

Mr Novack asks : OK -- WHY am I saying "don't do this"?

I can assure you that we haven't got a clue why you are polluting every article sympathetic to the Palestinians that you come across with bucket loads of convoluted dross. Is it possible to get paid for that type of work? Is it the recession?

Tank shells were fired AT the Palestinian farmers. Yes Mike.

Do you know what "at " means? It is a preposition describing a specific or non specific location which can be replaced with a more specific preposition in most cases to specify an exact location usually in relation to a static object. Or as the OnLine Dictionary puts it :

1a. In or near the area occupied by; in or near the location of:
b. In or near the position of:
2. To or toward the direction or location of, especially for a specific purpose:

So for your benefit , Mike:

The Fascists continue to fire tanks rounds in or near the position occupied by the farmers for the specific purposes of terrorism.

by Mike Novack Sat May 02, 2009 14:22

ROFLOL -- no of course not (I don't get paid)

Vincent, try to understand what I said. For some reason you think I was being critical of something sympathetic to the Palestinians when I was in fact being critical to what made something sympathetic to the Palestinians less effective.

Get a clue man. Suppose there is a publication that is going to prominently feature three articles and I (as an editor) want to destroy the effectiveness of those articles. I lack the power to remove or in any way alter those atricles BUT I have the power to add articles. How do I proceed? SIMPLE -- I add say two articles that were NONSENSE, obviously untrue or at best grossly distorted. Ideally ones that bore a relationship to the articles I wanted to denigrate. That will make MOST PEOPLE treat the real articles with a degree of scepticism, reduce their effectiveness.

I said most people. You can't judge the effectivenessby the repsonse of a 'true believer" like yourself. Perhaps you did not notice but your response to the silly bit (as written) was to treat it as gospel and try to imagine that it wasn't mispresented after all. In your case the tactic wouldn't work. If there were three anti-Israel pieces (true, good pieces) and to these were added another -- say one describing how the Israelis were kidnapping Palestinian children, killing them and using their blood to make "matzot" this would not (in your case) wreck the effectiveness of the whole piece. But let me assure you, as far as the general public reading now all four together, it would.

Vincent, I am indeed partisan in this particular conflict -- but in case you didn't notice, not to the extent as to be "anything goes" unhelpful to the other side. In this instance I do not believe the problem is "sabotage" (though as I described above, that IS how I would sabotage) but more likely journalistic incompetence. I am suggesting that perhaps those posting articles intended to increase sympathy for the Palestinians could be MORE effective getting final editorial advice from a non-true believer editor ( by that word "editor" I mean function, not formal job description).

BTW -- it is NOT just those involved with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that seem to have this problem. Unfortunately unskilled journalism is rife. By all means rail at the standard media but don't imagine that their journalistic "technique" can be ignored. LEARN HOW! Journalism 101 etc.

by Vincent Sat May 02, 2009 15:36

If you think you are providing some kind of revelation when you describe your fictitious editorial scenario you need to go back and actually read the stuff you have posted here. Trust me when I tell you that it is painfully evident that if you were the editor of a publicaiton you would purposefully insert bogus articles that were NONSENSE, obviously untrue or at best grossly distorted in order to undermine all credibility.
Such stories as described by you of Israeli soldiers and the kidnapping of Palestinian children and the shedding of their blood are widely published and true.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=37283

The massacres of children in Gaza are undeniable with 437 children butchered and nearly two thousand maimed in the space of three weeks.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=91096§ionid=35...20202

So your incredible story is not so incredible, except for the part where you say they make the blood that they have spilled into bread. This is the part that you would add to your otherwise true article in order to divert outrage and sympathy away from the truth. This is what you have been doing. This what you do. I find it hard to believe you are not paid for your efforts.

by Mike Novack Sat May 02, 2009 20:40

"This is what you have been doing. This what you do. I find it hard to believe you are not paid for your efforts."

That is really insulting (and bordering on more). Since I have clearly stated that I was partisan why do you imply that I would have to be paid? How would you feel if I said that I couldn't believe you were supporting the Palestinians unless you were paid for your efforts? (note: I am NOT saying any such thing)

Do you need help sorting out the strory I said was messed up? I am of two minds here since I dont' want to be giving "aid and comfort to the enemy" but on the other hand have an interest in Indymedia.

OK -- here goes. The story of the tank firing at the farmers and this going on for several days and unaccountably missing? Try looking for TWO stories. One about a tank firing shells into one part of Gaza. A second story about rifle fire chasing away farmers working in their field every time they approached the fence in another part of Gaza. I'm not going to help you any more than that, but these are the (actual -- I've seen them) stories that probably got conflated by careless journalism into what made no sense.

by Vincent Sun May 03, 2009 14:38

It's hard to fathom what your point is , Mike Novack.

Are you saying that the Israeli soldiers dont shoot Palestinian Farmers ? Because you would be wrong.
Are you saying that Israeli tanks dont fire Machine guns and artillery at Gaza farmer ? That would also be wrong.
Are you saying that the farmers who said this is the fourth time this week that the army fires tanks shells at them while working on their lands near the borders, are lying. ?
Or are you saying that Gazan farmers dont know the difference between being chased by the careful gunfire of their Israeli masters for being a little too close to the fence and being fired on by machine gun and artillery from tanks operated by demented killers who have no value for life?

The truth is that Israeli tanks and soldiers fire regularly on Gazan farmers with no qualms about who they injure or kill.
It is their job to make the lives of Gazans as miserable as possible. Yes, I know it's sick, but it's not hard to believe.
It is hard to believe that Egypt colludes in this outrage - but it is also true.

http://vodpod.com/watch/1416029-footage-of-israeli-mili...rmers

by Reporter12 Sun May 03, 2009 15:07

This shocking report of how Sderot town children are suffering from PTSD and need Psychiatric counselling once a week in order to help them come to terms with the atrocities surrounding the Gaza offensive..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3709902,00.html

“The students were badly affected by the impact of the Gaza war,” Principal Fima later tells Sderot Media Center. “It was very difficult to get the students back on track in terms of studying. It was impossible to get them to concentrate and their motivation was completely gone.”

Amazingly none of these Israeli children harbour feelings of hatred towards any of the 400 Gaza kids murdered , or the 2000 kids injured by their government.

“These kids have had to sacrifice so much already at such a young age. And yet they are not consumed by hatred or anger,” said Fima.

Even more amazingly, no Gazan children, alive or dead, are known to have received treatment for PTSD.

by Fred Johnston Sun May 03, 2009 19:13

Why aren't representations being made by the Irish government to the Egyptians over this scandal? There can only be one reason that Egypt is colluding with all of this, and that is because something has been promised to them by someone, somewhere, either in Washington or Israel. One must not lose sight of the fact that the war against the Palestinians is a US/Israeli-led war, impossible without US collaboration and support. We know that the US cares little or nothing for human rights, because Hillary Clinton told us so in her address to the Chinese a few weeks ago when she said that trade was more important than human rights, a statement widely reported but not commented upon further. So what has Egypt been offered? Naturally, a neutered Europe stays silent on all of this. It is clearly now possible to commit war crimes in full view of the world and with impunity, if you have sufficient support. And is Ireland, with her permanent US base at Shannon, free of guilt?

by Mike Novac Mon May 04, 2009 11:58

(because wearing my partisan hat I want to see "carry on, bro")

"Are you saying that the Israeli soldiers dont shoot Palestinian Farmers ? Because you would be wrong.
Are you saying that Israeli tanks dont fire Machine guns and artillery at Gaza farmer ? That would also be wrong.
Are you saying that the Israeli soldiers dont shoot Palestinian Farmers ? Because you would be wrong.
Are you saying that Israeli tanks dont fire Machine guns and artillery at Gaza farmer ? That would also be wrong.
Are you saying that the farmers who said this is the fourth time this week that the army fires tanks shells at them while working on their lands near the borders, are lying. ?
Or are you saying that Gazan farmers dont know the difference between being chased by the careful gunfire of their Israeli masters for being a little too close to the fence and being fired on by machine gun and artillery from tanks operated by demented killers who have no value for life?
Or are you saying that Gazan farmers dont know the difference between being chased by the careful gunfire of their Israeli masters for being a little too close to the fence and being fired on by machine gun and artillery from tanks operated by demented killers who have no value for life?

No to all of those Vincent. You really don't understand at all.

When you (or somebody else) appends to a list of good stories one that can be shown to be bad those partisan on the other side can use that to try to discredit the list. It's not enough to show the other items also wrong BUT it's enough to shift the burden of proof.

"Are you saying that the farmers who said this is the fourth time this week that the army fires tanks shells at them while working on their lands near the borders, are lying. ?"

NOT AT ALL. If you had something between your ears you would have understood that I was saying probably some REPORTERS or REPOSTERS had confused two stories. In other words, that THIS WEEK there probably weren't any Palestinian farmers saying any such thing.

"Or are you saying that Gazan farmers dont know the difference between being chased by the careful gunfire of their Israeli masters for being a little too close to the fence and being fired on by machine gun and artillery from tanks operated by demented killers who have no value for life?"

Whether an Israeli tank gunner (probably the whole crew) has any respect for life wouldn't be the question but whether any respect for getting into trouble for wasting tank shells would be. Ask anybody who has served in any military. If there was an active artillery firefight going on they wouldn't have had to account for the shells -- but that's not the case here. Guaranteed they'd get a new hole chewed for wasting a whole bunch of shells just for warning shots when a couple bursts from the tank's heavy machine gun would have served.

Enough! Like I said earlier, carry on the good work.

by Vincent Mon May 04, 2009 17:30

Oh you should have said, Mike Novack,

You were worried about the soldiers wasting weapons by firing them at the Gaza farmers. You were concerned that the Israeli tank fascists might get into trouble for firing too many weapons at the Palestinians. You should have said so, because I could have put you straight a long time ago had I known.

You see Mike, when it comes to firing on the Palestinians, and Lebanese when it's the season, there's no such thing as "too much". That's actually the name of the game. In fact, much like an unwitting Lebanese child, you have wandered into the very minefield of Israel / US relations. Only, you wont get your legs or hands blown off, you just look naive.
The US gives Israel billions in money and grants to buy , use, develop, test, and sell weapons. Understand that Israel is like the middle East equivalent of Bubbas All American weapons depot. And the Palestinians (you shouldn't find it hard to picture) are the stuffed dummies with the bullseyes on their heads, except, unlike in Bubbas Depot , they come with the rags on their heads already.
Gaza and Lebanon are testing grounds for all kinds and ranges of weapons of war. Just like The West Bank is a testing ground for all types of crowd control and crowd dispersal munitions. Sound bombs , stun grenades all that good shit. They use tons of them every week, testing, trying , improving and then selling on the second grade stuff to the Arab sidekicks in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

You see while you are prattling on about Zionism and Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews there's a trillion dollar industry booming in Palestine (and Also Iraq). The occupation industry has made a lot of them so called Zionist American Neo-Cons extremely rich.

I think you need to stand back and try to see the bigger picture, Mike. Or maybe just stand back.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Wed May 27, 2009 23:25

There is an almighty amount of very self righteous hollow indignation in the whole thread. For decades there were Irish objections to British imperial power and now it seems the taste for it is as strong as ever by inheritance.

Egypt is independent! Besides the Moslem culture zone has slightly different attitudes to the morality of the Enlightenment notion of separation of religion and state or even the rights of fellows in contrast to the treatment of kaffirs - infidels.

We can all advise her but she does not have to accept. Consequentially there needs be some revision in the forms of words and attitudes of some contributors.