Bank Loan Repayment Strike Anyone?

by pat c Tue Feb 03, 2009 18:04

All of the CEOs of the 5 banks covered by the guarantee and Anglo Irish are paid in excess of €1 million pa, some are paid over €3 million pa. There is no move by Biffo to cap their salaries.

There is a need for a fightback but any fightback will be sabotaged by the Enemy Within. Dan Murphy of the PSEU sent around a circular trying to scare people about the IMF being called in. Peter McLoone of IMPACT sent around a circular saying that people must prepare themselves for cutbacks.

Is this the thing to do when you are in negotiations? Show the other side that you are prepared to surrender?

by Blacbloc Tue Feb 03, 2009 18:12

Naomi Klein has documented it well in 'The Shock Doctrine that this 'crisis' is actually being seized upon by the ****s in IBEC and their sympathisers in government to railroad through a severe attack on social democracy. They're boasting about it here:

"Every downturn opens a window of opportunity to adjust the status quo, and astute managers push through necessary changes while the window is open. An economic crisis marks a sharp break with the past, and, observing the break, employees recognise that a firm cannot continue to do what it did in the past. The downturn lowers their resistance to change and cuts through complacency. A downturn often brings latent challenges to a head, and savvy managers can harness the resulting energy to infuse the organisation with a sense of urgency in fixing these problems. "

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/62a6423e-e750-11dd-aef2-00007...eck=1

The 'problems' being 'fixed' are you and me. IBEC are rampaging across public policy at the moment - they drove the partnership discussions and insiders involved say it was clear that the government were basically just following IBEC instructions.

Are we ready to fight?

by shellout Tue Feb 03, 2009 18:27

Isn't it about time the people of this country rose up against this crap. Government tries to save 2 billion euro. That kind of pales into insignificance when you compare it with the hundreds of billions of our gas and oil given away to shell et al. Add to that the billions of euro we lost on fishing rights because we joined the EU and we see where things have gone wrong.
IBEC have a huge hold on these pathetic weasels in government. Strike people, strike hard. Learn the facts - the country shafted you. A new patriotism is needed

by margaret Tue Feb 03, 2009 21:09

yes, "shellout",it was the anti union suits on the so called "shell advisory board slush fund" that advised SHELLMULLET GAA to accept 200,000euro of Shells blood money.when will we ever learn?

by Ferg - none Tue Feb 03, 2009 22:23

The super rich Sean Quinn explained to Tommie Gorman on RTE the other day that his family and himself had lost one billion euros with Anglo-Irish.One billion for one family!This is exactly 50% of the money Cowen and his mates claim the state needs to save.Harney says that 'we' all need to share the pain....what a joke!.That's about the only thing she wants to share,no chance of sharing wealth.
The only honest financial group in the country,the Credit Union,isn't letting people go or getting handouts from the state.The good ole CU a model for future banking in the country.Isn't it time for the Waterford Crystal workers to turn their factory into a cooperative.Surely the wider trade union movement can chip in with the money to get the ball rolling.

by Edward Tue Feb 03, 2009 22:47

See my letter in the Irish Independent today. We need accountability and transparency.
We must demand now that all politicians declare all loans and all interests in problems with the banks especially Anglo Irish Bank

Taxpayers deserve truth on bank bailouts

Tuesday February 03 2009
The Irish taxpayers, especially compliant and hard-pressed PAYE taxpayers, are being asked, ostensibly at least, to bail out the banks, but we are not being given the background information behind these bailout decisions, or who it is that is really being bailed out.
The politicians are making decisions on the basis of the philosophy that, "I will run it as I see fit" -- hardly the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle.
The information we, the taxpayers, need urgently includes: who it is that will benefit from these bailouts? And, especially, who are the individuals and companies that will benefit by the taxpayers guaranteeing the banks?
Most PAYE individuals are not protected by limited company status, so are obliged to repay any debts we owe. If not, we can be jailed for defaulting.
Many companies which now default on bank loans will have their loans effectively paid for them by the taxpayer, so have been given an incentive or invitation to default.
The secrecy surrounding these bailout deals may have little to do with commercially sensitive information, but more to do with preventing exposure, and limiting the liabilities of all those, including politicians, who may be linked to irresponsible investors and developers who turned the Irish property market into a giant pyramid scheme.
We need to know especially if any of the politicians who are making these decisions are in any way connected to the banks being bailed out, especially Anglo Irish Bank, or in any way financially connected to individuals and companies likely to be bailed out.
If the taxpayer is to be asked to foot the bill for the stupidity and greed of our commercial and political leaders, then the least we are entitled to is full public disclosure of all financial and other interests that the present cohort of Irish politicians have with any of the financial institutions being assisted by the taxpayers, or with any of the defaulting developers or customers of these institutions.
We need to see an end to the culture of the Galway Races tent, or smart-aleck responses such as "I won it on a horse" or "I will run it (the country?) as I see fit."
Edward Horgan
Castletroy, Limerick

by eddie Wed Feb 04, 2009 13:48

Wot a load of tripe.
im a private sector worker and have to pay for my own pension.
i see no reason why public sector worlers shouldnt have to pay for theirs.
Havent had a pay rise in two years (in fact Iv had a pay cut) and count myslef lucky to have a job at all when i see my friends being laid off.
Poor souls in the public sector. My heart goes out to them.

by publci sector worker - - Wed Feb 04, 2009 14:00

Sorry but I do pay for my pension and have done. Public sector workers do pay for their pension.

Cutting public sector pensions/ pay will not save jobs in private sector.

Try thinking about the fat cat bankers who will be abiled out to tune of 8 Billion!

by teacher Wed Feb 04, 2009 14:38

Eddie, that's a load of misinformed crap. I'm already paying 6% of my wage on pensions - that will rise to 13% after this.
All to bail out incompetence and greed. what a country

by hari Wed Feb 04, 2009 15:15

Eddie, I am a public sector worker and have been paying 6.5% of my salary to pay for my pension for the last 36 years! I also pay nearly 3% of my salary in PRSI, for which I receive absolutely nothing - no sick pay, disability pay and NO OLD-AGE PENSION, contributory or non-contributory. So please stop telling me I pay nothing, unlike private sector workers.

by pat c Wed Feb 04, 2009 15:46

They are trying to divide us. I doubt very much if "eddie" is really a worker. A gang of scabby employers who are out to break trade unions has bee targetting Indymedia for some time. Most of their venom is directed at the TEEU but they also have had ago at pensions in the building industry as a whole. Then they moved on to the minimum wage. They want to get rid of it so they can pay any pittance they weant.

Now they are moving in on public sector workers. They don't fool anyone. The real enemy are the rich. The rich who pay no tax. The rich who Biffo won't tax. He will take €15 per week in a pension levy from a part time cleraner but he won't close off the tax loopholes for his billionaire backers.

Biffo has just stated that top bankers should take a 25% pay cut. Thats a joke. Some of these guys earn in excess of €3 million a year. Biffo is using our pension funds to bail out the bankers and hes still allowing them to pay themselves millions.

Time to call a halt.

Time to ditch the ICTU Misleaders.

Peter McLoone is Chair of the ICTU Public Srvices Committee, Dan Murphy is secretary. Both of them issued circulars intended to sabotage any fightback while the negotiations were still going on. No wonder Biffo was confident in pushing through the pension levy.

For a start McLoone and Murphy must be removed from their positions.

by Sarah Wed Feb 04, 2009 18:06

My husband works in the third level education sector.

He started off paid by the hour with no holiday, sick or bank holiday pay. Then he got a contract (they call it the EPT contract) which was a better deal but a lot less than being employed properly and on an incremental pay scale. While on the EPT contract he paid full PRSI.

After about 20 or so years of this contract nonsense and some pressure from the TUI, he and a few others in the same position were interviewed for their own jobs with a view to being permanent. He had to face a panel of four people including an external interviewers. Yes he got the 'job' BUT he was made to start at the bottom of the payscale and had no incremental credit for the 20 odd years he had already served. So his pay was the same as a 22 year old straight out of college when he was in his 40s and had all that satisfactory service/experience.

Pensionwise, he got no credit for all that service as an EPT. As a permanent lecturer he pays 6.5% towards his pension which will be a much reduced one as the earlier years (when he was on much lower pay) don't count. We borrowed money to buy back some of these years and are still paying that. His gross salary hasn't got to €50,000 pa and we now face a 'levy' of €3,500 or more. we are still in shock and are not sure exactly how bad it is going to be.

i can understand why those who have lost their jobs or whose small business is struggling to survive feel. Obviouly anyone who has a permanent job is blessed. But the government has cleverly turned private sector workers and the small self employed against public sector workers and we should not let that divide continue or expand.

We are all workers. we should take to the street TOGETHER and insist that the friends of the government take their share of the pain. Surely €100,000 pa is enough for any worker. The tax system should in these difficult times ensure that income over that amount is taken to ensure essential services keep going. and 'artists' like Cecelia Aherne should have to take some pain. currently her first €250,000 pa is tax free!!!

by Mark C - ASTI - Pers. Caps. Wed Feb 04, 2009 19:36

Sarah,

Your piece is a very well put one, and all too true of many public service workers. When times were bad the public service workers did not get as much as the private sector. When times got better (if they ever did in real terms) the public sector pay aligned with the private sector (somewhat), but we still didn't earn more.

I don't for a minute begrudge the private sector workers the pay they get above us. But by the same token, they should not begrudge us our "secure, pensionable" jobs, certainly not after reading your post - our jobs are not so secure (I am probably going to be let go because of the education cuts - secondary school teacher); our pension is not that good (maximum half of our salaries - after 40 years service). And, if I am let go, my pension contributions cannot be carried with me to a private job.

I've been teacher now for 7 years and after that am still only on a year-by-year contract, and only for 18 hours a week. You are quite right, the private and the public workers should be campaigning together - we are all workers, we all have bosses who dictate our pay and terms.

Regards,
Mark Conroy.

by eddie Wed Feb 04, 2009 21:42

i understand public service workers pay for a pension but firstly they dont pay the full cost and they're guaranteed a set sum on retirement. Plus the idiotic linking of pensions to the wages of a worker AFTER they retire.

I pay for my FULL pension with no guarantees as to its level upon retirement and have to do so with pay cuts.

The fact is that public sector unions for some reason only known to themselves went demanding parity with the private sector when all evidence pointed to the fact that average public sector conditions were already ahead of the private sector.
Now that things have gone wrong, the unions are two faced in saying they dont want parity anymore. Their leaders have led the membership down a cul de sac with their political strategy and will blame anybody but themselves for their gross political miscalculation.

And by the way, I dont agree with bank bailouts either. Leave the F*&kers fail. Although unlike public service workers, the value of my pension has gone south along with the stock market.

And yet after one dumb ass strategy, unions are now complaining about having to make a justifiable contribution towards their defined benefit pensions. Cobblers I tell ya!

by Signing On. Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:07

These two articles in today's Irish Times prove that the Public Sector is hardly being touched by the Recession/Depression:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0205....html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0205....html

The Public Sector Unions are on a whinge.

They should count their lucky stars.

by pat c Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:19

The first link merely states that the pension levy will be reduced by tax relief, that was already known.

The second link states that unemployment may rise to 400,000. Even if public service pay was cut by 50% it wouldn't prevent one private sector worker from losing their job.

Bank heads earn up to €3 million pa but Biffo only wants them to take a 25% pay cut. THats someting that you should be protesting about if you are really signing on.

by Signing On Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:43

The first link shows that the levy has not hurt the Public Sector in the slightest.

The second link shows that the private sector are taking all the rap.

This third link paints an even more "desperate" picture:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0205/1....html

.

by pat c Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:51

"The first link shows that the levy has not hurt the Public Sector in the slightest."

Not true. Those earning between €25,000 and €40,000 pa will pay between 4% and 4.6% on the pension levy after tax.

"The second link shows that the private sector are taking all the rap."

Not true. It shows an increase in unemployment. Public service workers are not responsible for this.

"This third link paints an even more "desperate" picture:"

Even if you cut public service wages by 50% it would not keep one public sector worker in employment.

Obama is capping bank executives pay at €389,120 pa but Biffo is happy to let the bankers pay themselves millions.

by shanedaman Thu Feb 05, 2009 15:58

Dear Sarah,

What you allege about your husband's EPT service not counting for pensionable service is factually incorrect. You seem to have been badly advised. It is counted pro-rata as pensionable service. Period.

As a private sector employee in insecure employment I am getting mghtily pissed off with all the whingeing by secure, well-paid and pensioned public-servants.

The bankers and property developers did very well out of the building bubble. But so too did our public-servants. Most of the stamp-duty, development-levies, and other taxes paid by the developers (and passed on to unfortunate home-buyers) went to fund the enormous wage-increases that the public-sector gained under the bench-marking process during the good years.

The real pain is now being born solely by private employees and small businesses. There may be 450,000 unemployed by this time next year. Few of them will be public-sector workers. Private employees and owners of small businesses have seen their defined contribution pensions decimated in the equities melt-down. Other private employees will lose their pensions as well as their jobs when their employers go into liquidation. None of this pain is being born by the public-sector.

Now we have public servants whining because they will have to pay a few percent of the overall cost of their large, guarranteed pensions. Yesterday, I heard a HSE nurse complaining on the radio about the prospect of an increase in the tax on her holiday home as if she would no longer be able to put bread on the table for her starving little-ones. Spare me.

You will be delighted to learn that the capitalized value of a teachers pension after 40 years service* is more than €1,000,000 - most of it paid for by us mugs.

Since when did Indymedia become a platform for pampered millionaires?

* If they haven't got full service when they reach retirement age they can buy service at less than 25% of the rate they would pay on the market for equivalent (but unguarranteed) benefits. And if they don't want to pay something reasonable towards their pensions, let them opt out and pay the full-rate stamp and claim the much much smaller state pension when they get to 65. Any takers? No?

by worker Thu Feb 05, 2009 16:23

There are no millionaires in the public service but plenty of low paid workers..

You "mugs" are not paying for public service pensions. In the last Bench marking 12% was deducted due to the value of public service pensions therefore public service workers have already foregone a 12% pay increaser to pay for the pensions.

But dont worry you will see us in action soon. This ribbery is not going to succeed.

by Signing On Fri Feb 06, 2009 13:01

As one of the few NUMERATE people to emerge from Ireland's schools I did a few sums:

Ireland's Budget Deficit this year is expected to be around €47.3 Billion,...23.6% of our GDP.

Source:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0128/1....html

The 100 richest people in Ireland were worth €23 Billion between them in 2004 money.
(They are probably worth less today..anyway let us leave that figure as an approximation.)

Source:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irelands-100-ri....html

So....if we fleece and impoverish the 100 richest people in Ireland we STILL have a gaping hole of over €24 Billion in the budget.

Now that I have given those oh-so-clever-teachers a simple lesson in "doing sums" perhaps they can answer this:

WHERE THE HELL DO WE GET THE REST OF THE MONEY?

by Blacbloc Fri Feb 06, 2009 13:06

We're not just talking about the first 100 richest people, are we? Last year The Independent said there were 30,000 people with more than a million euro in assets. Beneath those there are others, allowing a generous bottom level, many more who earn 100K pa and above.

So stop pretending this is about just 100 people. It's about the top 20-40% of Irish society. That is where all the money should be collected from.

by Worker Fri Feb 06, 2009 13:35

Question/ Observation for Blacblock:

I agree that the problem extends beyond the top 1-3% of Irish society. However, the 20-40% of people you mention sell their labour for a living and do not fall into a neat 'ruling class' category. They are upper middle managerial-co-ordinating class. However, using class-anarchist concepts they are still working class.

Any thoughts on this?

Or do you accept that a simple working versus ruling class is a futile category for contemporary capitalist societies? This is my conclusion.

_____________

Saturday 28th 2pm.

- Great.

by Signing On Fri Feb 06, 2009 13:50

Blacbloc says "20,000 with more than a million Euros in assets".

Assets are "Property and Shares" usually.

Perhaps I should say "WERE Property and Shares".

That figure came from the "Property and Shares Bubble"

The figure is utterly wrong now...Your €500,000 house will probably fetch less than €200,000 in the very near future.

If you are lucky.

.

by Andrew Fri Feb 06, 2009 14:23

I'd like to know where worker and blacbloc are getting their figures from. There is no way 20-40% of the working population earn more than 100k. Nor are 20-40% in any "upper middle managerial-co-ordinating class" - the 40% figure would be 2 managers for every 3 workers, not even Spar has that sort of ratio and its certainly not any sort of average.

I think both comments illustrate part of the problem with much discussion about class on the left, all sorts of crazy assumptions are made and repeated that often, as here, don't even make sense when you give them five seconds thought.

As this is about education consider 3rd level where the highest salarys will be found. Only Associate Professors and Senior Lectuers have pay scale on the academic side that reach 100k (from the 3rd point of the AP scale, at the very last point of the best SL scales). These are certainly less than 5% of the total workforce. To this 5% could be added a very few of the top admin managers, maybe adding 1%.

Apart from the top managers no one outside the academic grades is on anything approaching 100k, actually apart from academics there would be almost no one earning more than 60k. Quite large numbers start on less than 30k. People (in particular students) often make the error of substituting academic for 'education worker' when it comes to third level, forgetting that a huge percentage of the workers are support staff and many are quite badly paid, in particular the cleaning workers who are now nearly all out sourced.

I'm not familiar with the pay scales for primary and secondary teachers, nor for those involved in adult education. But I'd be amazed if the percentage on 100k in any of these areas even approached that 6% from 3rd level.

Where exactly are all these people you think earn 100k+ working in "upper middle managerial-co-ordinating class" positions? I'd be very surprised if you use both of these measures you'd fit more than 10% (and probably closer to 5%) of the population in that group. Even the ESRI quarterly report which lumps all sort of people outside both those boxes into 'managers and administrators' only has 15% of the economically active population in that category and a further 5% as 'self employed with employees'.

by Signing On Fri Feb 06, 2009 14:29

One other point.

Lets say there really are 30,000 millionaires we can fleece.(Which there AREN'T.)

That's €30 billion more if we leave them all penniless.

That BARELY puts THIS years budget into surplus (Presuming that we have already fleeced the top 100 !).

Now...............What about NEXT year?

.

by Andrew Fri Feb 06, 2009 15:12

The problem here is the assumption that the top 100 are only worth 1 million each. A quick google turns up this 2004 article from the Indepenent of all things which tell us that
"The 10 richest people in Ireland are each sitting on an average fortune of €800m. The average industrial worker would have to bank his or her entire €27,000 salary every year for 30,000 years to amass the same wealth."
I'm sure their wealth has gone up and maybe down a bit since but the wealth of one of them alone is equal to the extra revenue entire public sector pay cut.

Beyond that while for sure we should be arguing to hit the rich rather than workers in terms of finding the cash to get out of this particular crisis we should also be looking to get out of this capitalist system of production and crisis that is destroying the planet. Fortunately and not co-incidentally this also involves taking on the same people,

by Signing On Fri Feb 06, 2009 16:21

In my "Sums Lesson" above I said that the top 100 are worth €23 billion (2004 figures referenced.)

That amount plus one million each from the 30,000 so-called millionaires that Bacbloc believes exist gives us a sum total of €53 billion.

The budget shortfall this year is a minimum €47.3 billion.

That leaves a surplus this year of just €5.7 billion AFTER we have fleeced the "Richest" 30,100 people in the country of every cent they have.

That is the Economics of the Insane asylum.

.

by pat - none Sat Feb 07, 2009 01:31

I have read alot about the tax levy that was placed on workers and pay cuts and pay raises frozen,What i dont understand is why the unions and people stand up to the Government over their over inflated pay and expences and how they have their own private pension that pays them very well.
The Government is no different from the CEOs who rip us off and dont get punished for it,yet you steal 100 euros and its off to court for you,We the People have to take back our government and set their pay and not allow them to vote on their own raises like they have been doing for years
Every thing is out of control,Price of food,houses,cars etc etc,Just remember one thing we have the money to bail out banks and investments but none for the workers,ponder it