Save All Jobs at Dell

by John O'Kennedy Wed Feb 04, 2009 08:11

Capitalism without the USSR to balance it ????

The USSR was PURE STATE CAPITALISM .....complete with a down-trodden enslaved Working Class.

It also had an old fashioned EMPIRE.

Those Working Class who tried to escape from that EMPIRE were usually shot in the back.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall

Quote:

"During this period, at least 136 people were confirmed killed trying to cross the Wall into West Berlin, according to official figures. However, a prominent victims' group claims that more than 200 people were killed trying to flee from East to West Berlin."
.

by JinTX-USA Wed Feb 04, 2009 05:52

I keep reading about "GREED"
Well, admittedly I know very little about Ireland and their retirement investments, investment laws, etc - but making a PROFIT is the number one rresponsibility of a company which has millions of investors. Why should an employee in Ireland keep her job if an retired employee in Texas will lose their investment? And as one brave soul pointed out - Dell is an AMERICAN company - so should the folks in Round Rock, TX have forced government takeover to prevent Ireland from having any Dell jobs at all?

I'm JUST SAYIN......

by Andrei Thu Jan 29, 2009 14:42

He-he, welcome to the harsh reality of capitalism without the USSR to balance it.

Because of us, you have lived in peace and prosperity during the last 60 years.

Why? because the capitalists were dead scared of the socialism. Socialism is the responsibility of the state to its citizens and humanity, while capitalism - well, 'one against all, and profit is the god'.

So they had to give you more rights and share the wealth that you created and they took away - just because they were scared that you might prefer better lives.

Why? We had hot water, jobs, free (excellent) education and health system, cheap products and belief in better future, while people were living in slums in the UK before the WWII.

Now enjoy the 'victory' over the Soviet Union. Capitalists milked common workers, nations and waged wars to get more, more, more profit. Now they have nothing standing in their way...

Believe in the 'democracy' and 'freedom' if you like. Dell are just doing what the capitalists do best...

by Member Sparty Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:52

Postman it seems that you are only interested in abusing people. Clear and credible arguments in favour of the nationalisation of Dell have been put forward here.

Your comments are an illogical defence of the indefensible. What Dell are doing is indefensible. Greed sums up their motives perfectly. All you have done is come on here and defend the right of capitalists to exploit workers and once they have made billions in profits, fuck off to another country, another grant to increase those profits no matter what the consequences for those who they have cast aside. Tens of thousands of families will suffer due to this decision.

Gregor Kerr has made legitimate points which reinforce early arguments made by members of the socialist party. Your reply is simply abusive. If you have nothing constructive to say then say nothing, we are not interested in hearing people defend the rich parasites who own Dell.

by postworker Tue Jan 20, 2009 22:06

Great opportunity then for the WSM to make a fortune to fund the workers revolution by starting up a replacement computer manufacturing operation in Limerick. I mean, they can't fail to make a huge profit. Can they?

In fact, using the WSM logic, the Dell workers should never have had jobs in Ireland in the first place. Neither should the hundred thousand other employees of US and EU multi-nationals. These Irish workers only have their jobs because of Irish complicity in foreign corporate "greed", and the fact that it was cheaper (because of predatory Irish corporation-tax rates) to move the jobs rightly belonging to US, British, and German workers to Ireland. The US should now re-introduce trade-tariffs to protect their workers. It would, of course, mean tens of thousands of our best paid workers being thrown onto the dole. But hell, lets not allow economics get in the way of ideology.

We could of course introduce our own tariffs and nationalize everything. These remedies have been tried with empircally proven results. Think of ireland in the 50s, mated with the late great USSR.

With such geniuses, no wonder the WSM manages to win so many seats at election time.

by Gregor Kerr - WSM - 1st May - pers. cap. Tue Jan 20, 2009 20:50

Bear these two figures in mind when you're wondering about Dell's motives
1. The Dell plant in Limerick made a profit of €74.4million last year
2. Dell worldwide made €546million profit in the 3 months to 31st October '08

So Dell didn't move this factory to Poland because it was about to 'go bust'. It did so because it could make more profits. That's called Greed.

To follow Postworker's logic - Can we now expect a cut in the price of Dell computers since the workers making them are earning a fraction of what the Limerick workers were making?

And pigs might fly....

by postworker Tue Jan 20, 2009 19:30

Dell doesn't owe ireland or Limerick anything. It sells computers. If they cost more to make here than rival computers made in Poland or the Far East, no one will buy them. If no one buys them, Dell doesn't make a profit and eventually goes bust. If Dell goes bust, everyone in Dell loses their jobs.

Dell has (even though it ows Ireland SFA) kept many jobs in Ireland. Other jobs it has moved to Poland. Irish workers in Limerick have been offered the opportunity to take up positions in Poland. This is just like Poles have been doing i.e. coming to Ireland for work. Dell has actually increased its net number of employees. Three cheers for the workers!

Why have Irish workers more right to these jobs than Poles? And why is it ok for Poles to have to look for jobs in Ireland (and learn the language in the process) and not visa versa?

Of course we can all make a pact with Dell to keep its manufacturing operation in Ireland and buy Dell computers in return at the appropriate premium price rather than cheaper computers sourced from elsewhere. Any volunteers?

(This has an economic precedent. In the late USSR. The comrades were able to buy Ladas at an equivalent price to what we were paying for the most expensive german luxury models)

Perhaps the SWP (If it hasn't split yet!) might give a lead and start up a computer manufacturing plant in the empty Dell premises applying its legendary expertise in command economics?

We need to get a grip on ourselves.

by SP online - SP/CWI Mon Jan 19, 2009 13:44

Dell ... Our chance to halt greed

The savage axing of 1,900 jobs by the Dell Corporation in Limerick was widely covered in the media but the restrained tone of that coverage was quite remarkable. It was as if a family death was being reported. There was talk of ‘sadness’ and ‘regret’ at the announcement and much ‘sympathy’ for the affected workers.
But the jobs in Limerick didn’t simply die – they were deliberately massacred by blatant corporate greed.

Michael Dell and the major shareholders of his company aren’t satisfied with the pre tax profits of €74.4million earned in Limerick in the year to the end of February 2008. Nor are they happy with the €546million profit worldwide earned in the three months to October 31, 2008. They want more, and too bad if thousands of livelihoods have to be laid waste in the process.

continued here http://www.socialistparty.net/pub/news/dell.html

by Whoa there again Wed Jan 14, 2009 16:32

Your defeatism is shameful.

It's called picking your battles kid.
Not doing YOUR idea, isn't the same as lying down, as you suggest.

Where would the Dell workers get capital to run their nationalised factory - simple the government as it would be owned by the state.

And that's just one of the steps that requires a million more (practically a revolution) before it would come close to happening.

In otherwords, you are painting a utopia, rather than realism, and accusing people who are less deluded of being in straitjackets.

Your objections to this idea are very weak and flimsy.

You're kidding, right? Go and show us ANYTHING you have accomplished, and then we'll see if you have had any of the wisdom that comes with the experience of hard committed struggle.

Effective organising comes from a lot more than regurgitating dogma.

by Pat Ohara Wed Jan 14, 2009 16:30

Capitalism has died.
However Capitalism has a nasty habit of resurrecting itself:
Like a phoenix rising from its own ashes...and stronger than ever.

In 1930 American Capitalism was pronounced "Dead".

Just 15 years later,in 1945, America was the most prosperous and powerful country in world history...even though it had just fought a World War.

In 1945 Germany was a nation of ruins,with 10% of its population killed in the war.

Thanks to American money,just 10 years later,in 1955 ,Germany was more prosperous than it had ever been in history.
The most prosperous country in Europe in fact.

Karl Marx wrote about a capitalism based on the technology of the Steam Engine.
That technology was superseded...and Marxism with it.

Capitalism will rise again.

This is why:

http://www.intel.com/technology/architecture-silicon/2b...hc_2b

.

by Member sparty Wed Jan 14, 2009 15:40

To "Sympathetic but practical" and "ex IBM" forget practicality, forget pessimism, and for once try to break out of the straitjacket of conditioning that your minds have been encased in.

You have been told by the establishment, the media and the big business commentators for so long that without the business elite the world could not function, that the working class and poor are incompetent and incapable of organising industry and society themselves without the benevolence of the captains of industry - now you believe it.

The world has entered what is at least the second most serious economic recession in the history of capitalism, which may very well develop into a depression and one that is even worse than the 1930s. Capitalism has failed. The captains of industry have been exposed as incompetent and incapable of running a modern economy.

The department of finance has said that in the next 2 years another 240,000 will join the 290,000 already on the dole. What is your answer to this - just accept it. There is nothing you can do. "jobs come and jobs go". That's exactly the type of response that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael would love from the working class. Just accept it, the mass unemployment, the €1 billion cuts in health this year, wage cuts for all, slash and burn all across the public services. But do nothing just accept it!

Working class people have a lot more backbone that you believe. The pensioners beat the government without barely breaking sweat. They didn't just accept it.

Workers will not just accept losing their jobs. There will be political consequences for the establishment parties, but also there will be struggles and strikes to save jobs, and to protect wages and working conditions.

Will this happen in Dell. If no one tries to organise opposition to the job loses or an alternative then no of course there will be no fightback. But some people are going to try and we will have to see if they achieve anything. Maybe they will fail, but I'd rather fail trying that not try at all. Your defeatism is shameful.

Where would the Dell workers get capital to run their nationalised factory - simple the government as it would be owned by the state.

Where would they source supplies - only a small proportion of the worlds chip manufacturers, and computer components manufacturers supply Dell. If the Irish government was to put out a call for suppliers in the current recession they would receive a flood of offers from companies all over the world desperate for a new market.

How would the workers market their product - they would do like any other company does and employ specialists.

Your objections to this idea are very weak and flimsy.

by ex IBM Wed Jan 14, 2009 14:56

I suspect the party comrade is in the full flush of their revolutionary youth... this naive SP proposal wont ever float for a variety of reasons previously mentioned above. Just because people are "workers" this doesn't automatically make them left wing - unless I'm missing out on the slew of Socialist Party TDs and Councillors in the Limerick region? Aside from not having any capital to purchase the necessary components (and the existing suppliers wouldnt dare ship to the lone renegade factory, because Dell wouldnt use them in their other plants in the future) the workers would have to rebrand everything, get a marketing campaign going for their new brand, etc etc.

I'm even irritated with myself for replying to this post, pigs will fly with snowballs in hell attached to their bellies before the workers in Dell self-organise and occupy the factory (for starters). You watch, and wait.

by Sympathetic but practical Wed Jan 14, 2009 13:02

The above is a lot of pie in the sky or hot air.

With everyone worldwide fighting for their own survival after job losses and home repossessions who are in a position to offer donations even if they could afford them.

This is a load of hot air.

Dell are gone that's it and they were not the first and they won't be the last. We just have to get used to it as you can't fight the inevitable with dreams.

by Member sparty Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:48

Pat that is capitalism only if you lie down and accept it and do nothing to fight back. Workers can organise and take on the employers and defeat them if determined enough.

And to the person who claims to be a Dell worker. Your cynicism towards other working class people is not justified. Do I think that working class people would support you - without hesitation I say yes. There is a history going back nearly 200 years all over the world of working class people supporting strikes and workers struggles. It is a tradition deeply held in the consciousness of the working class. If the workers in Dell were to occupy the plant and demand nationalisation then hundreds of thousands would support you and not just in word but financially by donating to your strike fund. And yes people would go to the plant and bring food and supplies and those supplies would not only be provided by the people of Limerick or Dublin, but you would get financial support from people in Liverpool, London, Berlin, Rome, New York this has happened many times before. Literally millions of pounds was raised in Britain, Ireland and all over the world to support the struggle by the British miners.

And as to your fear that some would be arrested that's a possibility but only a possibility. A occupation of the plant that had the active involvement of large numbers of the Dell workers, their families and the many others who jobs are threatened in the region would have the ability to resist the Gardai. And if some strikers were arrested it would be possible to mobilise massive protests of thousands around the country to demand their release. I am confident that this would happen as it has happened on many occasions in the past when workers were arrested.

And to the person who has tried to put up arguments as to why the workers of Dell could not run their own company and produce computers and or similar products. Your arguments are simplistic. I spoke to my children about this and put some of your questions to them. They had credible answers to them all. They better than you understand that working class people are capable of running a computer factory - its what they do already everyday of the week. And your arguments regarding commercial property rights etc are infantile. Irish people are not thick, they are not dependent on the likes of Michael Dell to design computers and new products, there are plenty of designers in this country given the task could design superior computers to that of Dell.

by Pat Ohara. Wed Jan 14, 2009 08:18

Some of you guys seem to think that Dell is Irish.
No it isn't.
We stole American jobs when Dell located here.
The Poles now steal our jobs....tough!
That's Capitalism guys.
"Red in Tooth and Claw".
(Even Redder than the "Socialist Workers' Paradise" of North Korea !)
We used Dell as much as Dell used us.
.

by AlmostRedundantBrian Wed Jan 14, 2009 00:42

As one of those affected, I have nothing but scorn for Dell, who are chucking us out, even though they're making a profit.
They say it was a hard decision for Dell, but that's crap. They saw a chance of bigger profit, and as a company, that's all they care about.
There's never enough, and directors are legally obliged to maximise profits for shareholders. Corporate entity laws are seriously anti-human and anti-civilisation and should be scrapped. I will say that much without hesitation.
But your proposal is one of utter lunacy.
You KNOW it won't happen, are you just driven by ideology to spew it out anyway?
There's a hell of a lot of things that have to change to make our jobs and our economy more secure. Trying to launch a revolution on the back of public outrage over Dell is not a practical start, nor an honest show of solidarity with the workers.
Should we go down in flames just to be martyrs? fecked in prison after being beaten by cops, just so you can talk about a glorious struggle?
We had the chance to make a difference, and not enough of us spoke out. Happily obsessed with the everyday crap that the pundits on TV, radio and the newspapers tell us to obsess about. Our gardens, and mortgages, and cookery shows, and soaps.

The conditions for solidarity for the action you propose simply do not exist, and nobody would launch a campaign in those circumstances, unless they didn't care about the result.

I for one will never buy a Dell machine again.
I will support local businesses, and avoid multinational corporations where I can, and forever denounce the hollowing out of our manufacturing base, and the dumbing down of semi-skilled jobs, and ridiculous bubbles.
But I know most people I spoke to were just hypnotised by media pundits.
You think they will suddenly awake, and be brave enough, committed enough, and well resourced enough to help us on a crusade?
To take time off from their (suddenly less secure) jobs to bring food to those on a picket line? To help us man the barricades?
To pay our mortgages while we're in prison?
I don't think so, so don't blow hot air up my butt just to puff out your chest and your socialist credentials.

In the meantime, I'm going to try find or make some work fixing stuff, or recycling stuff, cos we're sure as hell not going to throw away as much stuff as we did a few years ago.

by Mr Man Tue Jan 13, 2009 18:48

"Like a vulture, having ripped profit out of its workers in Limerick, Dell now wants to go exploit workers elsewhere."

So giving people jobs is exploiting them?

"Workers should occupy the factory to ensure that no equipment or resources are removed by management"

How do they stop the Gardai from forcibly removing them?

"If dell wont reverse its decision workers and unions must demand that the government take the plant, all equipment and assets in democratic public ownership to safeguard all jobs"

I'm sure forcibly nationalising companies will be a HUGE boon for the Irish economy. Nothing says 'invest in Ireland' like stealing privately owned companies. It's a publicly traded company, nothing stopping the govt. buying the company to nationalise it rather than stealing it.

by JollyRedGiant - Socialist Party / CWI Tue Jan 13, 2009 18:12

Pat said

"It is perfectly clear that the "Socialist Party" does not understand much about Capitalism or indeed economics."

Indeed the opposite is the case - while all the other parties in the Dail were claiming that the Celtic Tiger would keep riding onwards - the SP outlined the nature of capitalism, the nature of the impending crisis and the impact on working class people when the boom collapsed.

So can the Dell plant be kept open.

The Irish Government buy thousands of computers every year - public sector companies - health service - local councils - schools etc. all require regular updating with computers, other hardware and software. Furthermore the cost to the exchequer could be reduced by dumping Windows etc. Indeed the plant could sell the computers a lot cheaper than Dell do - there would be no drive to maximise profits. And the plant could expand the range of products produced as it would not be straight-jacketed by the manufacturing strategy of Dell.

Furthermore the government would save on social welfare payments to those workers dumped on the dole etc. etc.

The idea that this would be unworkable is nonsense - what is unworkable is dumping thousands of people on the dole.

by Whoa there.... Tue Jan 13, 2009 16:50

Member sparty

please put forward a credible alternative to 1,900 Dell workers joining the dole and the potential other 12 - 13k workers in the Mid-west region who may join them due to Dell's decision.

The time to stop that was before it got to this stage, but people were not taking enough action, even when a decent amount of the workforce knew this was on the cards. I got out 3 years ago, because I knew about the plant in Lodz, and I wanted a more secure career.

that its state of the art equipment,
Dell computers are not the high end of things. They are the most mass produced, but there's plenty of better machines out there.

which produces the whole product in Ireland,

What are you talking about? I remember putting "assembled in EU" stickers over the "made in China" stickers on the components.

and its highly skilled workforce

We weren't all engineers y'know. Slotting a hard drive into the hard drive slot, and sliding other bits and pieces in, is not the same as being highly skilled. that's no put down to the workforce, we got paid for doing it, and we knew how to do it well, but we weren't crafting the things, we were assembling them.

could then produce computers and other related products without the involvement of the parasites from Dell is credible.
Really, when you seize the factory, but don't have access to the line of credit or bank account to pay suppliers? Where will the parts come from? And do you think the Irish govt would violate 'property rights' and get kicked out of the WTO which they so adore? Pigs will fly first.

Consumers can save Irish jobs by not buying stuff from China, and supporting products and services in our own communities and country.

by Member sparty Tue Jan 13, 2009 16:49

The Socialist Party has never said that the government should step in and run Dell. The Socialist Party is saying that the government should nationalise the Dell operations in Ireland and that the workforce should run the operation. Who do you think does that currently? Michael Dell? No - the Irish Dell workforce already run the whole operation, and they should continue to do so but with it being a nationalised company.

As I ask you in the last post, what do you and the other sceptics propose? Should the Dell workforce just accept their plight? Put their lives in the hands of government task forces and the like? Or should they take action themselves to try to keep a profitable, modern state of the art successful computer manufacturing operation up and running and save 15,000 jobs.

You are wrong it isn't rocket science - it is computer manufacturing and the Dell workforce know more about that than anyone else.

by Pat Ohara. Tue Jan 13, 2009 16:08

I am a computer engineer who will be out of work next May-June.
I know the industry well.
The computer industry REALLY IS "Rocket Science".
The industry is "Off the scale" sophisticated.
The notion that a Government can walk in and start running Dell "just-like-that" is a bit...............infantile.
.

by Member sparty Tue Jan 13, 2009 15:56

No Pat oHara not scales, computers! You and the others who have derided the Socialist Party's proposals regarding how to save the jobs at Dell please put forward a credible alternative to 1,900 Dell workers joining the dole and the potential other 12 - 13k workers in the Mid-west region who may join them due to Dell's decision.

The Socialist Party's proposal is most definitely credible. It is the most credible and workable proposal that has been made so far. Nationalise Dell. The Irish division of Dell is profitable - it makes huge profits. The idea that this company in Ireland should be taken over by the state, without any compensation being paid to the greedy billionaires at Dell; that its state of the art equipment, which produces the whole product in Ireland, and its highly skilled workforce could then produce computers and other related products without the involvement of the parasites from Dell is credible.

That these computers could be produced cheaper than Dell is credible. That they would have a market is also a reality. And that the Dell workforce should control and run the operation is also completely viable. The Dell workforce build the computers and market the computers - add on some design expertise and there is no reason at all why this would not be a success.

That the Dell workforce should occupy the plants and take ownership of all the technology etc is also 100% justifiable. The massive profits made by this company are 100% due to the labour of the workers, by taking over the plants all they would be doing is taking back what is rightfully theirs already.

If the workers were to take this action I believe they would have the support not only of the majority of workers in the Limerick region but throughout the whole country. Thousands who have lost their jobs and who face unemployment would cheer their actions.

The government stepped in with billions to save the bankers and the rich. They should now step in and save up to 15k jobs in the Limerick region by nationalising Dell.

They should also nationalise Waterford Crystal.

by frank Tue Jan 13, 2009 13:58

I agree that Dell is shameless, and Fianna Fail not blameless, but there's little point ranting on about it, pretending to offer a solution, and not showing one.

How would you propose it works?
Workers seize control of the factory, and somehow convince suppliers to continue to extend credit, while they assemble PCs, and try to sell them? Get real.

A more realistic (and less sensationalist) solution would be something like, refocus our economy on skilled work (not 'assembly' which is what Dell does, they import parts from China etc, and re-label them, and stick them together in a PC box) and the people of Ireland have to be more responsible in where and what they buy.

If we re-trained them to work in renewable energy and other domestic industries rather then depend on Multinationals, it would be a good start.

Buying the cheapest crap available, regardless of how it contributes to exploitation is just as much a factor in this scenario as corrupt government has been.

by Jim Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:51

Are you seriously suggesting the Irish government should be running the Dell plant in Limerick?
The Irish government can't even provide an efficient modern health service so how the hell do you think they can compete with Dell or IBM or any other big computer manufacturer?
Who is going to buy the computers manufactured an Irish government run plant anyway?
The computer industry is a rapid innovative sector and there is no way company run by a civil servant can compete in the market.
Computers are constantly become more compact, have more memory and applications.
Are Limerick workers going to be subsidised to produce out of date junk in 5 years time that nobody is going to be buying?

by Socialist Party Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:48

Here is a PDF version of the above leaflet

PDF of the Leaflet 0.07 Mb