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public consultation / irish social forum |
news report
Sunday January 11, 2009 20:43
by Sean Clinton - Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign
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Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23I think it's good that there are people wanting to be active against the Israeli war on Gaza and against the policies of the Israeli government. But I don't think that Boycotts will deliver change in Israel-Palestine. In South Africa it was mass action by South African workers and poor that ended apartheid. We need to build up support among Israeli workers to defeat their own ruling class. The Israeli working people and poor have more in common with the oppressed of Gaza and West Bank then they do with Israeli government and ruling elite.
There should be boycotts of the Arms industry and of industry directly related to the oppression of Palestine. But workers that are employed making DIY goods, or growing grapes, oranges, and herbs are not oppressing Palestine. Israeli academics are not causing the oppression of Palestine. In fact, making boycotts against these people can be counter productive as it may turn these people further into the hands of the Israeli ruling class. We should look more into organising industrial action and protests against the arms industry.
Your actions also put workers in the stores in a very difficult position. Also Israel is not an illegitimate state, it has the right to exist. Why are you not calling for a boycott of Irish goods? The Irish state is supporting the war and occupation of Iraq by letting US troops travel through Shannon. The war in Iraq has been far more brutal and barbaric than what the Israeli state has done to the Palestinians. Why are you not calling for a boycott of US or British goods?
If an illegal organisation in Ireland was lobbying rockets to Holyhead from our coastline for the last 8 years we would expect the UK to retaliate and rightly so.
They would have a right to defend their citizens by any means to stop the rockets crossing into their country.
I for one will support the Israeli effort and make sure to buy their goods.
It is Hamas that does not care about their own people and use them as human shields so open your eyes and look at the truth. What they are doing to their own people is sick.
If an organisation in Ireland was attacking England you'd expect the British army to invade Dublin and blow up schools full of innocent kids? You think that would help?
(anyway, I remember something about people bombing Britian from Ireland in the recent past- what happened then...)
you're right to say that only a mass movement of workers can end this but which workers... the israeli working class will never rise against their ruling class in the interests of themselves and the arabs etc... the israeli working class is imbued with a racist settler siege mentality but not only that objectively it's material existence is held artificially high by US aid and so although there is a gap between rich and poor in israeli society , the working class of israel is still held way above the arab working classes... even the most left wing labour organisations in israel are thouroughly zionist in some way.. and any version of a two state solution is also a form of watered down zionism...
change can come though..the arab masses in the neighbouring countries are the key...
there is no other progressive force in the region only the workers of egypt, jordan, syria etc can do it.. and there are developments for example the kifaya movement in egypt which consists of socialists, left nationalists, islamists, students etc whose slogan is 'enough is enough' with regard to the mubarak region.. and within that movement there's room for socialists to find a huge audience...
if we wait for the israeli working class we'll be waiting til the end of time...
plus i dont see why the call cant go out for workers action AND we can raise funds for the people of gaza and run the boycott..
if you call for strike and noones gonna act on it then thats a pretty useless call... although of course thats something to build towards.. but people want something to do now...
The abovementioned contribution trots out a succession of the usual disempowering clichés.
"Israel is not an illegitimate state, it has the right to exist."
What does this mean? No state "has the right to exist" - they simply exist, and they either behave legitimately or illegitimately. Israel behaves illegitimately, in consistent violation of international law and international humanitarian law.
"Why are you not calling for a boycott of Irish goods? The Irish state is supporting the war and occupation of Iraq by letting US troops travel through Shannon."
A boycott is a tactic, not a dogma. In certain cases it's useless, in others it just might be effective; Israel, it's increasingly clear, is in the latter category and the BDS campaign has lately received the backing of one of the world's most respected public intellectuals (Jewish, to boot), Naomi Klein. The Limerick activists and the rest of their IPSC comrades throughout the country have consistently opposed the presence of US troops in Shannon.
"The war in Iraq has been far more brutal and barbaric than what the Israeli state has done to the Palestinians."
By what measure? Iraq is a huge country, Gaza is a tiny strip of land. What Israel is doing to Gaza is like what the US did to Fallujah - but every day for the last 15-16 days and continuing. Further, Israel has had its Abu Ghraibs since the foundation of the state, but has got away with it.
" Why are you not calling for a boycott of US or British goods?"
Again, a boycott is a tactic. It may well work in the case of a small country like Apartheid Israel, but would be a pinprick to the Brits or the Americans. Anyway, I'm all for such a boycott!
Essentially what this person is saying is: if you can't boycott everybody, boycott nobody (oh, and let the Israelis do what they wish).
Congratulations to our friends in Limerick!
Boycott maybe symbolic but the symbolism is huge. As someone who was there I think it was effective and we will keep doing it. In the utter despair at the slaughter in Gaza, it is important to be able to do some action, however small, to raise awareness about apartheid products in our shops. People were interested and didn't realise that Dunnes had Israeli products and said they wouldn't buy them after we spoke to them. The Dunnes workers were part of a global movement against apartheid South Africa, i want to be part of a global movement against apartheid Israel.
There were two similar protests in Belfast on Saturday, at Sea Spa Skin Care - a shop selling products from the Dea Sea - and at Marks & Spencer.
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1) If an organisation in Ireland was attacking England you'd expect the British army to invade Dublin and blow up schools full of innocent kids? You think that would help?
I'm not sure. You mean if whoever was attacking set up their artillery position 30 meters from the school the Brits would fire back? The responsibility is at least shared in a situation like that. As to why they didn't bomb the cr*p out of you in response to the bombing campain, as I recall you DID fight a civil war over it and the bombing campaign was clearly being claimed by a still unsurrendered faction of the "rebels".
There is a connection between your own history and the situation there -- in the sense that the price of a Palestinian state is probably a civil war just like you had forced upon you. Yes that's right, forced. All well and good to argue that those who signed off on the 26/32 were traitors BUT the reality is that the Brits didn't need a signed document. They could have just pulled out of the 26 and then recognized whoever filled the power vacuum as "government" and presented themwith the alternatives "you put down those continuing to attack us or you are at war with us".
2)if we wait for the israeli working class we'll be waiting til the end of time...
Idiotic. This isn't about capitalism vs socialism. It's about peoples fighting over territory. If you imagine that two socialist societies couldn't make war on each other because both socialist you are overly optimistic. Wars between humans of capitalist states are fought for capitalist reasons but we humans fought wars against each other long before capitalism (for reasons which made sense to us within those previous systems) and sad to say, after capitalism is but a footnote in history we will probably still make war upon each other for reasons which will make sense within whatever socio-economic forms we then have.
Expect socialism to eliminate the inequitable distribution of capitalism but do not be overly optimistic about it solving other human problems. Just because we won't fight wars for capitalist reasons doesn't mean no wars.
I know there is a lot of hot feeling regarding this issue but sprouting words like 'illegitimate state' do nothing to further anything.
Israel is NOT an illegitimate state. The problem is its policies and actions.
Please desist from hot headed comment as such as it only denigrates this information website.
Israel most certainly is an illegitimate state. It has zero democratic legitimacy - its creation was never put to a ballot of the people living three as obviously it would have been overwhelmingly rejected, it expelled over half of the electorate - its own citizens, it refuses to allow these citizens to return in defiance of UN Resolution 194, again for obvious reasons as they would democratically vote to dismantle the racist state, it was established on stolen land, it was born out of injustice and brutality and can only be maintained through injustice and brutality. The Israeli state has precisely Zero legitimacy.
well stated!!
And from the amount of zionist flak it has received despite bleatings to the contrary, Israel and its economy is very sensitive to the power of boycott.
Every Israeli product you don't buy or discourage others from buying means one less bullet to murder innocent Palestinian civilians with!
fair play to yis. solidarity. great work. keep it up. dont pay heed to the armchair trolls that were commenting above. you are an example to all of us. maith sibh
Well done. I'm organising something similar myself soon. Keep it up!
This evening (Wednesday) shoppers in Dunnes stores and Tesco in Limerick city centre were alerted to the fact that these stores continue to trade with the illigitimate delinquent apartheid Israeli state. In Arthurs Quay shopping centre two shoppers stopped shopping to applaud the demonstration, took a placard and joined with us. Management was understanding and sympathetic and after making our point and aletrting customers we quietly departed and headed to the nearby Dunnes stores outlet.
A member of the management team in Dunnes told us that it ws his job to satisify their customers needs - he seemed completely unconcerned how many children were being torn to bits by American supplied Israeli bombs - business as usual as far as he was concerned.
Staff in both outlets were given fliers asking them to take a stand for human rights by refusing to handle goods from Israel.
Concerned citizens alert the public to the sale of produce from apartheid Israel
Tesco airlift parsley from apartheid Israel - no environmental or human cost too high
Blood red peppers from apartheid Israel in Tesco
Jaffa and Carmel - labels of apartheid Israel
Herbs - all the way from apartheid Israel
Granted I always thought they were too small, but the yellow 'boycott' Israel stickers were very good. I remember calmly loitering around the fruit and veg section 'inspecting' the produce. I will try make some of my own, a good size and colour so that they will be noticed when someone reaches for a lemon, an avocado or whatever.
When the leaders of Israel stop lying to their own citizens, and us, and stop oppressing the Palestinians, THEN I'll think about buying their stuff again, but not before.
Perhaps you remember the Dunnes Stores boycott of SA oranges in O'Connell Street?
The women there were thanked many times for the boycott, and invited to SA.
These people in Gaza need support right now of any kind people can give.
Please let people in Gaza know about the boycotts, there are bloggers there who can take comments.
heres that story from Dunnes, Christy Moore doing what he does best: Story telling. I posted it up earlier on related thread on another thread, coming from another tale, from another story teller, Martin Niemöller, after his horrific story during the Nazi era:
First they came for the communists, now they are coming for the Palestinians
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/90538
some of the words on Dunnes Stores and Christys views here
http://www.christymoore.com/lyrics_tabs_detail.php?id=136
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Firstly, I do think that the Jewish people that live in that area of the world have the right to self determination. They have a right to have a state (the exact borders of which should be discussed and agreed) and I find it shocking that some people deny the rights of the Israeli people. The "River to the sea Palestine Will be Free" chant by the Socialist Workers' Party is an example. This type of Arab nationalism does not help in answering the genuine fears of the Israeli people. when I hear this chant I cringe as it's completely insensitive to Israeli workers and it's a bowing down to Arab nationalism.
Secondly, James has to be answered. He is writing off a working class simply because of it's ethnic origins and the crimes of it's capitalist class. What next? The British working class are to blame for the crimes of their ruling class against Ireland, Iraq, etc.? The USA working class are to blame for the crimes of their rulers in the Middle East? That's what your logic is James! What next? The Irish trade union leaders are rotten scoundrals, therefore all Irish workers are also? That's what your logic is James! One third of Israeli children live in poverty. There is rampant low pay in Israel. The Israeli rulers that rained down brutality and barbarism on the people of Gaza also have vicious policies towards their own peoples. In fact the people of Palestine and the people of Israel have common intersts in booting out these people.
Ha ha ha! I haven't had such a laugh in a long time. I was visiting the settlement of Karnei Shomron and look what I saw:
You'd better ask your county council why they are donating equipment to Jewish councils in the West Bank.
I love it! :-)
Limerick Road Sweeper in Samaria
I avoid any shops that stock Israeli products but as a boatload of Israeli products arrives in Ireland every week or so they get distributed to all the major supermarkets. A little like a monopoly, no one supermarket chain has been brave enough to stop stocking Israeli products. Now I spend only about 20% of the amount that I used to spend in the supermarkets. When I do end up in a supermarket from time to time I am always asked if I had a loyalty card. I tell them that I could never have a loyalty card to a supermarket that stocked Israeli products and that the supermarket management should be ashamed of themselves. They always know exactly what I mean. I can live like this forr the next 20 years but I would be happier if any one chain came out in favour of human rights. PS I have absolutely no politics or no interest in the conflict and couldn't care less about any of the political issues. KILLING CHILDREN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES IS WRONG AND KILLING THEM IN THEIR MASSES IS UNFORGIVABLE......