Students Storm Dept Of Education

by Chris Bond Sat Sep 27, 2008 00:56

''Usual reaction to a middle class protest''

Since when is access to university a middle class issue, surely if fees were to be re-introduced the non middle class would be affected the most.

by squirrell Thu Sep 04, 2008 14:53

Mr Man, your response to the first point about parents having difficulty is a classic one

"If their kids can't even figure out a means test form, them maybe they shouldn't be going to college in the first place."

In case you haven't noticed we are all living on one society. We all have to pay taxes to support this economy and welfare system. If their kids don't go to college as you suggest what happens then? The way our economy is going it will be a life time of dole payments and income support. This would cost at todays welfare levels over €500,000!

Why not help this person to get as good an education as possible in order for them to participate in our knowledge based economy and contribute to the tax system. Much better value for everyone's money.

The current form for the grants means test around 20 pages long. It requires knowledge of parents income levels for 2007 by either getting a p21 from the tax office or a statement of income from the social welfare.

Sure alot of students will have no problem with this but many do have problems. I deal with them every day. Its a huge stress for them and their families. Your answer to this problem? "they shouldn't be going to college in the first place" offers no solution for them or for society it only makes us all worse off in the long run.

by Mr Man Wed Sep 03, 2008 22:59

"You may think its not rocket science but parents with literacy difficulties get themselves into a right state worrying about filling out forms. Many give up once the form is sent back because a mistake has been made. "

Well, surely their aspiring college student children should give them a hand there, no? If their kids can't even figure out a means test form, them maybe they shouldn't be going to college in the first place.
And if they simply give up on sending their kids to college just because they can't figure out a form or ask for help, that's the govenments fault? How much spoon feeding do we need? Should we stop all dole related paperwork just because the people who want free money don't like figuring out a form?

"Other problems with means tests like this include students who are estranged from their parents due to drug use, violence at home etc... and they are expected to go and ask these parents to get them proof of income etc... "

A fair point, but you could use the same argument for any beaurocratic process. Registering for schools, applying for a loan etc.

by squirrel Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:42

Mr Man,

Many people especially parents find the CAO forms and the forms for the means tested grants very complicated. In my job I have spent the last month sitting down with parents filling out grant forms.

You may think its not rocket science but parents with literacy difficulties get themselves into a right state worrying about filling out forms. Many give up once the form is sent back because a mistake has been made.

Other problems with means tests like this include students who are estranged from their parents due to drug use, violence at home etc... and they are expected to go and ask these parents to get them proof of income etc...

Are you getting the picture now?

by Mr Man Tue Sep 02, 2008 23:07

Don't get me wrong, I am against re-introduction of fees but how was the process complicated? Fairly straight forward as I recall. And means tests aren't exactly rocket science. Been out of the loop for a while, is it still people with family income of over 100grand or something who will have to pay fees?

by squirrell Tue Sep 02, 2008 16:01

The students need to keep the issue in the media as much as possible and they will defeat it as they have done before.

I admit that some times students can seem self serving but access to free education has a benefit for all in society not just these students. Think of the big picture !

We should be pressing to end the subsidies given to private schools instead of reintroducing fees. Also we should be pushing for a proper pre school system which is where the problem of educational segregation begins in our country.

Reintroducing third level fees will only raise €15 million (a drop in ocean in real terms) but will keep some out of college that would have gone and add a means test which is unnecessary bureaucracy to an already complicated applications process.

by Ghandi of North Strand Tue Sep 02, 2008 14:18

"Garda, swiftly moved them"!!!!!!!!!!!

The protesters were on the grounds for about 15 minutes before the garda strolled along, and comprised of 3 male & 1 female officers, who walked over to the protesters. This was followedby a garda car with 2 officers about 5 minutes later. They allowed the protest to finish and then they all left together.

Usual reaction to a middle class protest - more usual in this area for Garda to arrive by the van loan in riot gear, and end any gathering swiftly.

Just like the tribunals one law for the establishment and another for the working classes.