Anti-Bush Anti Imperialism Raised Loud and Clear in Belfast

by outcome Fri Jun 20, 2008 21:15

in 86 they turned their backs on republicanism at its most fundamental point. people give out about rsf ers going on about 86 but they are correct in that its signifigance cannot be over looked. the ramifications of what was allowed to happen then will be with us for a very long time. noone made the provos do this they choose to do this. and bnno one can say "ahhh well noone could have said how it was going tp play out" sure read the old saoirses rsf and company had it mapped out to a tee everything they said would happen has happened. today is teh evitable vconclusion of 1986. if anyone reading this wants to serve the republic of pearse make your way to those who knew and have made sure since that disasterous year that republicanism wasnt completely vanquished. an phoblacht abu

by ye ha, up the wha? - yeah right Fri Jun 20, 2008 15:27

ok. there are obviously all spectrums of opinion and ideas here. probably some ex shinners, some current some irsp, continuity, 32csm, eirigi, swp sp and every opther abreviation etc etc etc and some other non aligned and whatevers.
the debate naturally and rightly swings into THE defining argument of our time as republicans, socialists ect...

are the once revolutionary (in my opinion) sf and IRA (biggest republican group out there at the minute completely and utterly swallowed up in constitutionalism and british knots or are they engaged in the most progressive form of executing a republican struggle for economic and political independance. the answer to question 1. is yes Question 2 is no, but...

is it on the path to success or failure. is there a movement on this island driven on revolutionary change and growing in numbers?

no doubt the activists who motivated themselves to attend on behalf of sinn fein at the protest were motivated by some or all of the following: being told to, genuineness, both.

Anyway back to the big issue can sinn fein ride the two horses. i think not. in fact i think they have developed a political schizophrenia underpinned by a lack of common ideology within the party and within the party political line and support base - this is why ppp's and water rates and stuff go hand in hand with good articles in the republican news about socialism and protests at anti war demos, or meeting with bush and concessions with blair recognising british justice systems etc go hand in hand with reading proclaimations and espousing classic republican politics.

Now this isnt to take away from the majority good people, well intentioned who are part of the sinn fein movement and have come through years of struggle, jail, deaths etc at the hands of the state. no one can take that struggle away.

But politics is about what happens now and in future and it just doesnt look good at all - thats where the vitriolic and counter productive mud slinging comes from, anger and disdain that sinn fein say the right thing and bring people with them, but do the wrong thing and then justify it to those same people.

I have a long standing knowledge of the internal party dynamics at every level and no one could argue against the fact that all manner of 1984 tactics are used to quell the non leadership rock the boat line - thats why activists are leaving depressed , a mixture of not beliveing, of being bullied and of feeling completely and utterly burnt out, unlistened to and not respected as a human being, as opposed to a number in the SF production line (ogra actvists should pay particular attention to this)

But hey, just do the right thing no matter what party or group your in. if bush is here do all in your power to annoy and cajole, if british army is here do the same, if people are being forced to pay water rates, protest and organise against it and so on and so on. right and wrong is easy, just call a spade a spade and do the right thing comrades. see yous on the streets and the committees and everywhere and anywhere where the fight is. we havent gone away you know!!!!!!

by Ulster Accent Fri Jun 20, 2008 15:14

GW can't understand Martin's accent, and is not sure who he is to be honest.

by Liam Clarke Fri Jun 20, 2008 14:21

What really happened at that Bush meeting in Stormont? If you listened to Sinn Féin, Martin McGuinness gave George Bush a very strong ticking off. It's lucky we avoided a diplomatic incident.

It was claimed that McGuinness had delivered the same uncompromising message on Iraq as the protesters who were burning the US flag a mile away at the gates of Stormont. Barry McColgan, Sinn Féin's national organiser claimed "A loud and clear message was sent out to George Bush and the world that Ireland rejects imperialism" and Daithai McKay joined the protesters along with around half his fellow Sinn Féin MLAs.

Bush didn't look like a man who had had a hard time when he came out of Stormont Castle slapping Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness on the back and inviting them to the White House.

by Justin O'Hagan Fri Jun 20, 2008 14:18 justinohagan at hotmail dot com

The Bush visit — what really went on
(by Liam Clarke, News Letter)

What really happened at that Bush meeting in Stormont? If you listened to Sinn Féin, Martin McGuinness gave George Bush a very strong ticking off. It's lucky we avoided a diplomatic incident.

It was claimed that McGuinness had delivered the same uncompromising message on Iraq as the protesters who were burning the US flag a mile away at the gates of Stormont. Barry McColgan, Sinn Féin's national organiser claimed "A loud and clear message was sent out to George Bush and the world that Ireland rejects imperialism" and Daithai McKay joined the protesters along with around half his fellow Sinn Féin MLAs.

Bush didn't look like a man who had had a hard time when he came out of Stormont Castle slapping Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness on the back and inviting them to the White House.

Standing beside Bush with the cameras rolling, McGuinness sounded more like Uriah Heep than Che Guevara. "Can I say, just to echo what Peter has said, that this is an opportunity for us to express our thanks and appreciation for the tremendous work that has been done, in terms of the United States of America".

Let's rewind and see what happened when George Bush met the Northern Ireland parties at Hillsborough in April 2003.

Here is Jonathan Powell's account:

"Most of them had announced to the media in advance that they were going to give Bush a hard time on Iraq, but predictably they were overwhelmed by the occasion and just asked for his autograph or a signed photograph. It didn't stop many of them going out afterwards and announcing they had lectured him on the subject."

The real business of the 2003 meeting came when Bush joined the British and Irish governments in bringing pressure on the IRA to complete its disarmament and turn its back on violence for good. He discussed Iraqi policy with Blair – but not the locals.

This time the Middle East was mentioned, but Bush sounded comfortable enough about it. "Martin was telling me about his talks with some of the Iraqi leaders, about his... sharing his stories about how folks can reconcile. Northern Ireland is a success story" Bush enthused.

His own big message was delivered a few sentences earlier, straight after thanking Robinson and McGuinness for their hospitality.

"We talked about a lot of issues" Bush said, but only mentioned two. "We talked about the devolution of police and justice. We talked about the successful investment conference that took place here."

http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/News_letter/arts2008/j...e.php

by Fuck Bush Thu Jun 19, 2008 13:24

Great to see Ógra. Keep er lit!

by Watcher Wed Jun 18, 2008 15:57

Some may have gripes with SF but the fact remains that they are all at sea over this issue.

We have Ogra denouncing the visit while SF sr. rolls out tghe red carpet for the leader of the neo-liberal world and the architect of the invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq, the strangling of Cuba, the sabre rattling against Iran and Venezuela, etc.

Who does SF stand with? The oppressed or the oppressor? Seems a fair question.

SF are going to have to live up to their decisions and take their medicine like everyone else. This crying fowl has a strong whiff of immaturity about it.

by Saor Eire Wed Jun 18, 2008 13:31

As a young republican socialist i was glad to see ogra take part in the anti bush demo. however those who criticise anyone for attending an anti bush demo need to catch themselves on. it is clear however that a number of people who have left comments have gripes with sf and the bush visit is being used as an excuse to attack sf

by justin Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:03

SF made up a tiny part of the demo," are you blind fool, watch the video, OSF and SF easily made up the largest section of the protest - watch the video.

Sorry baby Shinners , I was standing beside the OSF group,. It was tiny (and not particularly youthful). Anyway, the kids may play but the grown-ups have their way (with Henry Kissinger, George Bush, the Clinton Gang, Paul Vocker, Wall Street, Coca-Cola, Colin Powell, Public Finanace Intitiatives, strike breaking etc etc.)

'When it was put to him [i.e., then Sinn Fein Northern chaiperson, Gerry O'Hara] ...that Sinn Fein suppressed its left-wing politics when it came to America, Mr O'Hara said: "We have no problem with capitalism. We help people with bread and butter issues. That's our politics. Call it what you want. If you remove the Border, unionists will have to go to people on bread and butter issues."'
Irish Times 10th May 1995

by jj o kelly Tue Jun 17, 2008 22:03

You cant expect genuine anti imperialists , Republicans and or socialists to stand 'side by side' with provos. They as a party stand against EVERYTHING we stand for. I do expect genuine people who want genuine change however to stand togeather on issues such as this.

by Dee Tue Jun 17, 2008 21:08

How the hell do we expect people to take anti war activities seriously and become interested in joining in and swelling our numbers if all we do is squabble and take cheap pot shots at each other.
Credit to anyone who took the time and trouble to stand up and speak out against Bush.
If we put as much time into uniting and working together we could achieve a hell of a lot more.

by Jared - None Tue Jun 17, 2008 19:48

Whilst I respect Sinn Fein activists who turned up to protest against Bush, youse are completely confused. Sinn Fein should have no co-operation with the Bush admin and McGuiness should have refused to meet him. Its an absolute disgrace and a betrayal of principle from so-called socialists. which side are youse on boys?

by Republican Tue Jun 17, 2008 19:00

For your information I am a republican and a socialist that has been politically active all of my adult life and I for the life of me cannot fathom how you can declare SF as leading the anti-imperilist struggle in Ireland when its second son invited, welcomed and fetted the leading imperialist in the world.

Regardless of what your views of others are, and I would probably share many of them, there is just no question that SF has been massively exposed here and they'll just have to take the knocks that come along with the decisions they have made.

I also think that you would do well to consider why some are so seething in the condemnation of SF. I think its largely due to the fact that people feel betrayed by them and their cynical tactics yesterday.

Bottom line- SF will just have to take whats coming to them.

by MM - DAWC Tue Jun 17, 2008 18:17

Would they be the struggles against water privatisation via separate water charges? [Conor Murphy will not be DRD Minister forever and if he succeeds in bringing in separate charges for water, then there's nothing to stop the next Minister selling NI Water Ltd off to THames or Suez or whichever multinational water company].

Or is it the struggle against the arms trade that allows the imperialists to maintain their subjugation of most of the world? Even SF Councillor Gerry "I'm a Lefty" MacLochlainn was unable to welcome the acquittal of the Raytheon 9 when asked by the BBC.

Or maybe they're leading the struggle for gay rights, cosying up to the homophobic DUP and keeping the heat off Iris Robinson in case it embarasses her husband, the new leader of Sinn Féin in the North?

by Joe Tue Jun 17, 2008 16:18

The level of hatred here shown towards genuine young republicans and SF activists who protested against George Bush and Imperialism is a disgrace.

Republicans have stood up for and stood by communities throughout decades of struggle. Where have all the rest of you's been.

Anti Imperialists involved in struggle across the world recognise that Sinn Fein are the ones leading the struggle in Ireland.

This sectarian and seething hatred, divisivness and politics of spite is a clear indication of why alot of your groups are so irrelevant and have no popular support.

by Not Fooled Tue Jun 17, 2008 15:25

I think the cynical display by Ogra and SF was more embarassing than anything else.

The matching misspelt t-shirts, the over 50's carrying Ogra placards, the staged march from Castle Street to the City Hall, etc.

Thing is there didn't seem to be a redface in the crowd.

They were ignored by the vast majority of those present at the demo, no-one was in awe of their tactics, however, they were not ignored from the platform.

Speaker after speaker slated the welcome their DFM had given to the war criminal George Bush. McCann said it best when he told them you are either on the side of the oppressed or the side of the oppressor, you can't have it both ways.

All in all, it was an embarassing display from them. Will they ever learn.

Ordering people to attend such things does not impress. There were those in their ranks who I dare say care not a jot about Iraq and Afghanistan and I've certainly never seen them at such demos and I know well who they are.

Catch a grip folks.

Your leadership has embarrassed you again. Why not tell Gerry Adams and co to put on the t shirts and take their oil?

by Ripley Tue Jun 17, 2008 15:06

The party has a track record of bringing up the Middle East during meetings with the British and Americans. It's not popular and makes things more difficult in the short term, but many in Sinn Féin are committed to using the opportunities that the peace process have afforded them.

It may be hard to believe that the party you support are actually doing what they say they are doing, but true nevertheless.

See this article for previous mentions of this: www.indymedia.ie/article/81491

by SF member Tue Jun 17, 2008 14:56

"The Sinn Fein Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness also met with George Bush, and raised Sinn Fein’s objections and concerns over the ongoing occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan."

I am a member of SF and I don't believe this statement.

by Spelling B Tue Jun 17, 2008 14:52

All those shirts and every single one spelt Afghanistan wrong.

by Community Activist Tue Jun 17, 2008 14:39

"SF made up a tiny part of the demo," are you blind fool, watch the video, OSF and SF easily made up the largest section of the protest - watch the video.

Any way that is neither here nor there, the important thing is that a good protest was had. No need to get in to petty sectarian squabbling. More important things to be at, like community politics, the responsibility that goes with struggle.

by The One with 2 Many Faces Tue Jun 17, 2008 14:25

When Martin and the world raised objections to Bush's imperialism, Bush replied..............

by Biker Tue Jun 17, 2008 14:22

It is hypocritical to protest George Bush at City Hall and then have your chief representative at the Northern Ireland Assembly hob-nobbing with Bush at Stormont Castle, and shaking his blood-spattered hand. Whether you raised Iraq with him or not is irrelevant - it's just like Cowen raising Shannon while all the time giving the US military carte blanche for their torture planes at Shannon.

Hypocrites!

by Simon O'Donovan - Republican Tue Jun 17, 2008 14:22

“I would like to also welcome news of this visit. Over recent years the United States has played a major part in the political process. Their encouragement and help contributed to the historic events of last May.“The President’s visit will serve to maintain the ongoing relationships between ourselves and the highest levels of the US political establishment as we seek to further develop links in the months and years ahead.” MARTIN MCGUINNESS

Surely there is a conflict of interest between Ogra Shinn Fein and Martin McGuinness's position in relation to the bush visit? Martin doesn't speak about raising concerns with Mr. Bush but about maintaining "the ongoing relationships between ourselves and the highest levels of the US political establishment" ...

by Bush Protester - Anti War Move Tue Jun 17, 2008 14:19

SF made up a tiny part of the demo, got attacked repeatedly from the platform, did nothing to build for the demo and had their leaders sitting happily with Bush, Brown and Bertie

Yis are a disgrace