14 Dead , But Not Forgotten...

by Jack - none Mon Jan 14, 2008 20:27 none none

Do you have any infomation on the march in Derry, I have tried searching on net but can not find anything about this years commemoration. Hope you get a good turn out in Dublin.

by WT Mon Jan 14, 2008 20:49

I have never missed a Bloody Sunday March in Years but I always make it my business to leave before the Shinners turn it into a party political broadcast.

by Jack again - none Tue Jan 15, 2008 01:28 none none

Has anyone a date for the Derry march, I could guess, but I want to be sure. Its a long journey up. Maybe some young buck might snip the wire when $inn Fein starts waffeling. Give them a taste of censorship.

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue Jan 15, 2008 17:26

Apologises for the delay in replying to both of you - damn mortgage has a lot to answer for :-( !

Hi WT !
I agree with you - it's not an event which any political party (so-called 'nationalist' or not) should use in order to 'sell' itself to potential voters . Unfortunately , groups like that do exist - they possibly pick-up those bad habits from the company they keep...

Hi Jack!
As far as I know , RSF has not , as yet , organised any other 'Bloody Sunday' commemoration outside of Dublin , for this year . If that situation changes I will post the details on this thread . And thanks for the expressed good-will towards our Dublin initiative .
I believe some Stormont-related political party or other has arranged a 'commemoration' for early February (or is it March?) in connection with the events of January 30 , 1972 , but I just can't imagine what those British-salaried and suited career politicians would have to say . Perhaps they intend to apologise for their behaviour.... ?

Thanks!

Sharon.

by WT Tue Jan 15, 2008 19:07

I had heard that this year's march in Derry is to be the last. I don't know if this is true or not,
I expect that the Former Republicans known as Sinn Fein will be mentioning their idiotic 'Stand Up for Derry' campaign, thought up by a need to do something Martina.

by Jack - none Tue Jan 15, 2008 20:04 none none

The reason why the families march every year, is because they feel that they have not gotten justice yet. They will stop marching when the real story come's out abouth what happened that day,30th Jan 1972. The dogs on the street know what really happened on Bloody Sunday. The findings of the Saville inquiry is ment to be released later this year. If the families are happy with the end result of a long and painful inquiry, they will stop marching. I personally can not see that righteous shower of ------admitting that they where wrong. As far as I know, the inquiry ended 2 years ago, they are taking their time releasing the findings. I'm still looking for info on events in Derry this year regarding the commemoration. While searching for info on Bloody Sunday, I came accross this site. hhttp://indigenousandirishalliance.moonfruit.com It was put together by our native American friends. They make a comparison between Wounded Knee and Bloody Sunday. Its worth a visit.
When ye get to page, click on, our struggles and scroll to first line, they shot our people down.
Hi to all our sioux friends.

by . Wed Jan 16, 2008 21:38

Meeting at:

Sunday, 3rd February.
3pm.
Creggan Shops.

by Henry Thu Jan 17, 2008 17:45

Before the Troubles broke out in the late 1960's, the Paratroop Regiment which had fought in the WW2 most famously as Arnhem were training intensively for possible deployment in air drops behind the Iron Curtain the event of World War 3.
They were elite front line soldiers who were expected to be utterly aggressive in combat operations.

These men were the last unit that should have been deployed to police a riot and especially to round up stone throwers.

Because they were trained to be constantly on a combat footing any perception that they were under attack would produce a violent response.

The soldiers who shot and wounded demonstrators claimed they were attacked with suspects throwing bombs and firing guns.

A paratrooper is not a social worker or a political scientist.

All that he understands is that he is in hostile territory where he could be shot at any moment by snipers and a hostile gang of youth are attacking him with stones.

When the officers gave the orders to round up the Derry Young Hooligans, the paratroopers were pumped up and ready to get stuck into crowd whom they did not distinguish from the IRA.

The Loyalists saw all Catholics as legitimate targets because in their ignorant thinking if a person was a Catholic, he was likely to be a Nationalist, if he was a Nationalist, he was likely to be an IRA member and therefore the entire Catholic population were legitimate targets.

Likewise the IRA using similar logic deemed any Protestant a legitimate target.

The demonstrators were marching for civil rights and opposed to internment of suspected IRA members.

A paratrooper who would have had only a hazy understanding of Northern Ireland would have assumed all the demonstrators were supporters of the IRA.

Rules of engagement were not clearly defined.

Therefore individuals who wanted to get "kills" were straining at the leash.

At barricade where several victims were shot as they lay taking cover soldiers claimed they were shooting at individuals in firing positions.

A psychological study was conducted in which unarmed two men without masks wearing suits entered a bank shouted that they were conducting a robbery before leaving immediately. When questioned most of the customers claimed the men wore ski masks and were armed with guns.

A radio man in one of the units saw his comrades sheltering behind a wall picking off the demonstrators on the barricade.
He presumed they were under fire from that direction but lowered his rifle again when he could see that there were not armed men in the area.

It was clear case of collective group think.

by WT Fri Jan 18, 2008 19:12

Is this Person Henry really claiming that the 14 people murdered on the orders of the British Government on Bloody Sunday died because the Paras had the mentality of Dumb Bloodthirsty Rottweilers?
Dumb Bloodthirsty Rottweilers they might have been but their handlers deliberately let them loose to kill.

by Sharon . - Individual . Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:47

Hi !

An eyewitness to the massacre , Italian photo-journalist Fulvio Grimaldi , doesn't share Henry's view that it was " a clear case of collective group think." I would suggest to Henry that the events of that day were as a result of a political decision , carried-out for political reasons .
Also - I would take issue with Henry's comment that " Likewise the IRA using similar logic deemed any Protestant a legitimate target."
That comment alone highlights the position from which you view the political situation in the North-East of this isle.

However ; on Monday , January 31 , 1972 , Grimaldi was interviewed on RTE radio :

" It was the most unbelievable..... I have travelled many countries, I have seen many civil wars and revolutions and wars, I have never seen such a cold-blooded murder, organised, disciplined murder, planned murder.
I was in the front line of the march as the march approached the barricade erected by the military in William Street. There were a few exchanges, a few throws of stones, not very heavy, and afterwards, about three of four minutes, the army moved up with this water cannon and sprayed the whole crowd with coloured water. Then the crowd dispersed.

Successively, it returned and threw some more stones: nothing as I have seen in other places in Northern Ireland, nothing really very heavy. After which gas was used massively by the army, and the crowd dispersed towards the meeting place, which was at Free Derry Corner. As the crowd was moving away, I would say about a couple of thousand people -- completely peaceful because they had been drenched with gas and they could hardly breathe, and many were sick -- suddenly in the area behind Free Derry Corner -- Rossville Flats, I think it is called, the big square in front of those flats -- the army, the paratroopers, moved in on Saracens.

And other paratroopers followed on foot, and they jumped out. The people were thinking they would be given another dose of gas and scattered very hurriedly and they really fled towards Free Derry Corner. The Army jumped out and they started shooting in all directions. I took pictures of this, I took recordings of this, and there is no doubt whatsoever that there wasn't the slightest provocation.

There hadn't been one shot fired at them. There hadn't been one nail bomb thrown at them. They jumped out and, with unbelievable murderous fury, shot into the fleeing crowd. I am absolutely certain, and it is proved by the tape, which records the whole following of events. Absolutely no shot, no nail bomb even, nothing at all. That crowd was dispersing. "

He was asked, in view of the fact that the British army claimed that they had been shooting at snipers on top of the flats, whether he had seen any dead and wounded other than in the streets. He went on: " Let me tell you what I saw. Now, they were only in the street and in the squares. I saw a man and his son crossing the street, trying to get to safety, with their hands on their heads. They were shot dead. The man got shot dead. The son, I think, was dying.

I saw a young fellow who had been wounded, crouching against the wall. He was shouting 'don't shoot, don't shoot'. A paratrooper approached and shot him about one yard. I saw a young boy of 15 protecting his girlfriend against the wall and then proceeding to try and rescue her by going out with a handkerchief and with the other hand on his hat. A paratrooper approached, shot him from about one yard into the stomach, and shot the girl in the arm.

I saw a priest approaching a fallen boy in the middle of the square, trying to help him, give him the last rites perhaps, and the army -- I saw a paratrooper kneel down and take aim at him and shoot at him, and the priest just got away by laying flat on his belly. I saw a French colleague of mine who, shouting 'press, press' and raising high his arms, went into the middle to give help to a fallen person and I saw again paratroopers kneeling down and aiming at him, and it's only by a fantastic acrobatic jump that he did that he got away.

I myself got shot at five times. I was at a certain stage shielding behind a window. I approached the window to take some pictures. Five bullets went immediately through the window, and I don't know how they missed."

Signor Grimaldi was asked what the mood of the people in the Bogside had been while this was going on. He said: " It was panic, it was sheer despair, it was frustration. I saw people crying, old men crying, young boys, who had lost their friends of 14, 13 and 15 years, crying and not understanding. There was astonishment. There was bewilderment, there was rage and frustration."

"The soulless mechanical tools. And their masters, the mad, frothing, mad scientists. I keep remembering the paratroopers as tiny, artificial, mechanical, and the people as normal sized, or even larger than life.
Paratroopers. The helmet, round and bulky like a casserole…first aid men and girls among them, red eyes, tears in their eyes, working professionally, pedantically, not giving a damn about themselves. The bravest people in the world. In front and under the guns, under the narrow, masked gaze of insects, the greatest cowards in the world."
- Fulvio Grimaldi .

Thanks !

Sharon.

Dublin 'Bloody Sunday' picket , Saturday January 26 , 2008 .

by WT Sat Jan 19, 2008 18:16

I think that everybody in the world, except for the Bigots and the British knows that Bloody Sunday was a deliberate act of Mass Murder, carried out with the intention of instilling fear in an upstart Nationalist community.
Therefore Sharon we need not get engaged in arguments with those who would try to excuse these War Criminals.
Grimaldi was right, one thing about Bloody Sunday which, besides the cold blooded murder, stands out is the amazing amount of courage shown by ordinary People, Priests, First Aid Personnel and civilians in the face of Cowardly Cold Blooded Murderers.

by ex 14 Int - Defence of the Realm Sun Jan 20, 2008 00:16

The reality is the Parachute regiment was never designed for peace keeping. The Parachute Regiment are NATO's shock troops, training revolves and unit ethos around developing aggression and competitiveness. In the cold war its role was to hold up Soviet armour on Poland's western flank, a Paras life expectancy in battle was estimated at 9 hours.

Training for such a role and unit ethos meant they were not appropriate for the complexities of Policing a civilian population.

Which is why the Parachute Regiment had the most complaints, it was also a unit republicans feared due to its 24/7 no let up harassment

It was even quite common for section commander to challenge known republicans to fist fights in the street, one against one.

by Sharon . - Individual . Sun Jan 20, 2008 00:33

Hi WT !

I agree with your post : the 'Henrys' of this world use a different 'weapon' in an attempt to emotionally 'disarm' those who would protest against Westminster's interference on this isle ; plausible-sounding propaganda mixed-in with half truths ie 'the inexperienced British squaddies fired-off a few rounds in panic...'

As you said - "Bloody Sunday was a deliberate act of Mass Murder, carried out with the intention of instilling fear in an upstart Nationalist community."

People like 'Henry' realise that , I'm sure , but , for reasons best known to themselves , attempt to put a spin , a 'gloss' , on those mis-deeds .
It's the least we can do to try and expose them .

Thanks!

Sharon.

by Steve Sun Jan 20, 2008 01:09

................>>>>>>>>>>People like 'Henry' realise that , I'm sure , but , for reasons best known to themselves , attempt to put a spin , a 'gloss' , on those mis-deeds .
It's the least we can do to try and expose them .

..................The problem is republicans are just as guilty of the same hypocrisy in defence of their terrible deeds.

Oh for the folly of men.

by walk towards the light Sun Jan 20, 2008 01:35

At least Henry is trying to offer a psychological and political explination for the events, unlike many republicans who's world view seems to revolve around good Irish people and bad "Brits".

Life is not black and White folks. Life is not as simple as goodies and baddies, its alot more difficult then that, its many shades of grey. The soldiers committed a terrible deed that day as did republicans.

Of course its alot easier to rely on a simplistic world views as ultra nationalist republicans and loyalists do, one of certainty but one without truth.

Such retarded thinking is the basis of xenophobia and racism, ie the world of unthinking black and white certainty, beliefs created by your own fear rather then objective and critical thinking.

by Sceptic Sun Jan 20, 2008 15:41

Bloody Sunday was an atrocity but the victims are not forgotten, quite rightly. Other equally innocent people are all but forgotten however like the five cleaning women and catholic chaplain killed at Aldershot in a bomb a few weeks later in “revenge”. Just because Bloody Sunday was an outrage does not excuse all the killings that republicans carries out in the decades afterwards many of whose victims were also innocent and killed in cold blood. Indeed the “Sharon” on this thread would seem to have no problem with killing per se if she is the same Sharon who was on about the Daithi O’Connell graveside commemoration. Its just that killing by republicans is excusable and that by the British are not.

by Sharon . - Individual . Sun Jan 20, 2008 17:43

Hi Steve !
Any armed group - Irish , British or whatever - that sets out to deliberately target peaceful protest/civil rights marchers are committing a deed more "terrible" than if targetting other combatants , and there's no way my posts on this thread could honestly be interpreted to infer otherwise . I suspect you have an anti-republican agenda and will clutch at any straw to promote it .
Oh the folly of poor propagandists!

Hi walk towards the light !
Polite of you to describe Henry's contribution as " a psychological and political explanation for the events [of Bloody Sunday] " - but it was no such thing . It was an attempt to 'excuse' why , in his opinion , the event occurred ie as I stated - "...to put a spin , a 'gloss' , on those mis-deeds ." British soldiers did indeed "commit a terrible deed that day" as you stated , but to remember same is not to own-up to possessing a "simplistic ...black and white..world view..." . Rather it is to attempt to put the 'powers-that-be' on notice that some people , at least , will not just sit quietly back but will protest and highlight their "terrible deeds" , even at the risk of people like you charging us as "xenophobia and racism" for doing so . I would be of the opinion that what you consider to be "objective and critical thinking" is really only a grudging belief you hold for the 'might is right' school of thought - in this case , that Westminster was attempting to knock future civil rights initiatives on the head by 'clamping down' on the 30 January 1972 march . Do you have an in-built fear of challenging 'authority' , Sir ? Is it because they are an 'authority' [of sorts] that you feel it wrong to challenge them ?
Are you not only 'walking towards the light' , but blinded by it ?

Hi Sceptic !
Re "innocent people" - see my reply to 'Steve' , above .
Re the Dáithí Ó Conaill Commemoration - I am that same Sharon , yes .
The oration delivered at that commemoration can be read here -
http://rsf.ie/saoirse/current/jan08.pdf
(pdf format - see page 8)
- but I fail to see how you can find same 'offensive' ?

Thanks!

Sharon.

by WT Sun Jan 20, 2008 18:14

As I've already said, 'The Paras were Dumb Bloodthirsty Rottweilers' sent out by their masters in Whitehall to Terrorize a Community which was seeking Civil Rights. The rest of the World knows that and to hell with those who would try to justify it.
I fully realize that Republicans have killed innocent Civilians on many occasions and I wouldn't attempt to justify it, as to do so would be hypocritical.

I see we have a former British soldier popping up with the childish, Paras offered to fight Republicans one to one. CRAP, as any bully knows it is easy to offer someone a fight when they have a couple of thugs standing behind them waiting to jump in should things go wrong.

Talking about bullys the same person talks about the Paras facing up to the Russians. Well lucky for the Paras that the Cold War didn't turn to outright Conflict because I'm sure that the Army which really defeated the Nazis would make short work of an Army that ran all the way to Dunkirk.
Oh Britain might be able to take on the likes of Argentina without the help of the Yanks but when it came to standing up to the Chinese they didn't hesitate to hand over Hong Kong.
Typical Bullys.

by walk towardsthe light Sun Jan 20, 2008 18:52

I don't really think republicans are in any position to criticise the British armies WW2 record when at the time the IRA were making pacts with the Nazis to be the republics little quslings.

Its just more of their blatent narrow minded hypocrisy.

by Steve Sun Jan 20, 2008 18:59

Letter in an English newspaper.

Sir: With all the recent attention being paid to Bloody Sunday, as is the case every year, no one ever seems to remember how the IRA took its revenge.

On 22 February 1972, within weeks of Bloody Sunday, they placed a car bomb outside 16 Parachute Brigade officers' mess at Aldershot. It exploded without any warning at 12.40pm, killing five women cleaners, a gardener and a priest.
Related Results

Why is it that this murderous event is never spoken about in relation to Bloody Sunday? Gerry Adams wants an apology from the British government, who, unlike the IRA, are accountable. Perhaps Adams could give me an apology for the IRA's murder of my mum and her friends that bloody Tuesday. KARL BOSLEY London SW16 The writer's mother, Mary Bosley, was one of those killed in the Aldershot bombing.

by Steve Sun Jan 20, 2008 19:48

Sharon the concept of judging people is 2007 by their nationality is retarded. I judge and and like/dislike people by their inner qualities and actions, not because they were born in the same street or look like me or speak the same or taken to its extreme have blond hair and blue eyes.

Nationalisms killed tens of millions in the last century, do animals nationalities ? do rocks.

No, such and idiotic concept only exists in the egos of men.

Its all a bit sad Irish republicans are still spouting this crap in the 21st century, especially as the first republicans believed in the greater brotherhood of mankind.

by WT Sun Jan 20, 2008 19:53

Here we go again, The old and worn Republicans made a pact with Nazis argument.
You can't put up a decent argument so you home in on one word 'Nazi' to make a point.
Nazis were an abhorrence to Humanity and if any Republican considered making a pact with them knowing about their atrocities then they were no better. But just as you can't tar all Germans with the Tag Nazi you can't say that because of the supposed actions of a few Republicans long ago that we are all Nazi supporters.

Steve I can't nor wouldn't wish to speak for Gerry Adams but I for one wouldn't justify what happened at Aldershot. It was wrong to kill innocent people whether they be English or Irish, FULL STOP.

by 2002 Sun Jan 20, 2008 19:55

The Aldershot bombing was carried out, as far as I know, by people linked to the current Irish Labour Party, so maybe an apology should be sought from them, not the IRA or Sinn Féin.

As far as the IRA is concerned they issued a statement in 2002, to coincide with the 30th anniversary of of an IRA operation in Belfast which resulted in nine people being killed and many more injured. The full text of the statement can be found here: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/ira160702.htm

Excerpt: "While it was not our intention to injure or kill non-combatants, the reality is that [...] on a number of other occasions that was the consequence of our actions.

"It is therefore appropriate on the anniversary of this tragic event that we address all of the deaths and injuries of non-combatants caused by us. We offer our sincere apologies and condolences to their families.

"There have been fatalities among combatants on all sides. We also acknowledge the grief and pain of their relatives."

The statement went on to say that conflict resolution required recognition of the grief and loss of others and the IRA was trying to live up to its responsibilities. "The future will not be found in denying collective failures and mistakes or closing minds and hearts to the plight of those who have been hurt. That includes all of the victims of the conflict, combatants and non-combatants. It will not be achieved by creating a hierarchy of victims in which some are deemed more or less worthy than others."

It concluded by stating that the IRA remained unequivocally committed to the peace process, and dealing with its challenges, which "includes the acceptance of past mistakes and of the hurt and pain we have caused to others".

by WT Sun Jan 20, 2008 20:22

No Steve Nationalism didn't kill tens of Millions of People, Man's greed and lust for power killed tens of Millions of People in the last Century and still does.
All wars are a result of Governments invading other countries to steal their national resources and expand their own empires.
Of course it is not surprising that most wars in the last century were as a result of Empire building by the Nazis, the British and American Governments.

by Sharon . - Individual . Sun Jan 20, 2008 20:33

Hi Steve !

"Sharon the concept of judging people is 2007 by their nationality is retarded."
I would go further than that , Steve , and say that to judge people by that criteria at all ie regardless of the 'year' (this is 2008 , by the way) is wrong - plain and simple ! As would be judging people by their skin colour or religion etc . Which is why I don't do it , never have and never will !
If you want to discuss that subject , could I suggest you start a new thread rather than attempt to drive this topic off-thread .

" I judge and and like/dislike people by their inner qualities and actions, not because they were born in the same street or look like me or speak the same or taken to its extreme have blond hair and blue eyes."
Would you "judge and and like/dislike them" if they tried to shoot you whilst you were protesting against an injustice ?

"Nationalisms killed tens of millions in the last century, do animals nationalities ? do rocks."
You're making even less sense now .

"No, such and idiotic concept only exists in the egos of men."
HEY ! We women have egos too , ya know....

"Its all a bit sad Irish republicans are still spouting this crap in the 21st century, especially as the first republicans believed in the greater brotherhood of mankind."
Well at least you got the century right . Now go tell it to that rock you spoke about earlier .
You're a time-waster , Steve .

Thanks!

Sharon.

by Sceptic Sun Jan 20, 2008 21:31

2002 - The Aldeshot bombing was carried out by the stickies but thats not the point. The victims are forgotten - no wall murals for them or for Jeffrey Agate or Patsy Gillespie. Nor is the 2002 apology adequate. Despite the IRA apology the Republican Movement constantly milks Bloody Sunday and the hunger strikes to stoke up extremism and Anglophobia. Th Republicans Movement looks for some measure of understanding for itself but will not allow any quarter to anyone else. The Derry killings by the paras are "cold blooded murder" but the far more numerous IRA killings are excused by the 2002 apology. Jan 30th is just an annual excuse for stirring up MOPERY and base emotions.

by mope? Sun Jan 20, 2008 21:40

If you want murals, why don't you paint some? Nobody is stopping you.

Nor is anyone in mainstream Republicanism trying to stir up Anglophobia. Some micro groups will try to exploit anything to increase their tiny memberships, but that's another story. It's probably wise to ignore them. Outside the world wide web, no one pays them much attention.

If the 2002 IRA statement is not good enough for you then I doubt anything ever will be, except maybe sackcloth and ashes, and it's you who is indulging in feeling oppressed.

by Sharon . - Individual . Sun Jan 20, 2008 23:05

Hi Mope? !

A Westminster/Stormont-funded group have indeed announced that they intend to hold some type of an event in Derry in early February (or is it March?) regarding Bloody Sunday .
I wouldn't be surprised if one or other (or both?) of the Chuckle Brothers opened proceedings for them .
Now that would make anyone 'skeptic' !

Thanks!

Sharon.

" I'm Charing proceedings , Martin . Not you ! "

by louise Wed Jan 23, 2008 15:43

Great to see that this massacre is not forgotten
myself and a few friends will spend the two hours on saturday with those that are not prepared to forget

thanks to republican sinn fein for giving us the oportunity to do this

by Jack - none Thu Jan 24, 2008 15:54 none none

I have to laugh at sceptic ‘Despite the IRA apology the Republican Movement constantly milks Bloody Sunday and the hunger strikes to stoke up extremism and Anglophobia‘. Talk about trying to turn an argument around full circle. I have never heard such a stupid explanation as to why he/she believes that extremism and Anglophobia exists in Ireland.

The republican movement has never had to stoke up ‘Anglophobia’, In all fairness you can give the British army full credit and 100% copyright for that one. Bloody Sunday and the hunger Strike’s are two chapters that you mentioned in the thirty year conflict. The British army murdered plenty of innocent people after Bloody Sunday, before the Hunger Strike, during the Hunger Strike, and after the Hunger Strike.

Ordinary people from one side of the community (nationalist) had good reason to suffer from Anglophobia as you call it. They did not suffer from Anglophobia because the republican movement kept reminding them of Bloody Sunday. They did however suffer a genuine fear from the British army and the Loyalist assassins that where directed by them. The fears where real, people where scared walking down the street. Sceptic, your suggestion that the fear was a result of the republican movement milking Bloody Sunday is utter nonsense. The British army created the phobia with their aggressive military presents, and their track record for murder and toture.

It’s a pity that you think that Jan 30th is an excuse for stirring up MOPEREY and base emotions, your way off the mark with that one. Bloody Sunday is an issue that wont go away until the truth is finally uncovered and made public. What ever about the IRA and Loyalist apologising, do you think it would be asking too much if Windsor and Wilson could do the same. On a final note, its good Sceptic that you are involved in keeping this issue alive by participating in this discussion/debate. Its good that you showed an interest.

Might this jack boot in the face cause Anglophobia ?

Might this woman have good reason to suffer from Anglophobia ?

A man lies dead in the street, run over by a british armoured car, is this an extrem reaction from the people ?

Another reason for Anglophobia ?

Dont be afraid, smile for the sneaking British army photographer

by Sceptic Thu Jan 24, 2008 16:50

You have it wrong. An aspect of MOPERY is the fixation with you’re your grievances with no sense of proportion as to the very real and much greater grievances of others at the hands of Republicans. Hence causalities caused by the British Army are played up and made much off. The much more numerous and equally worthy casualties caused by republicans are ignored. As far as republicans are concerned the 2002 apology has made the causalities they caused go away - though in quantitative terms they killed many more innocent Irish nationalist than did the British.

by ENQUIRY NEEDED! Thu Jan 24, 2008 17:09

full independent public enquiry, like what Sin Fein campaigned for over the last three decades.

by WT Thu Jan 24, 2008 19:44

Sceptic, If we are to move forward we must accept that there innocent people killed on both sides. But sadly we'll always have the odd idiotic comments from people such as yourself that killings by Republicans were the greater injustice. All killings were wrong.
I have no time for Sinn Fein nor do I support any Dissident Republican Group, in fact I would go as far as to say that Sinn Fein have used the likes of Bloody Sunday and the Hunger Strikes to give themselves a platform from which to move up the political ladder.
The longer they are in Paisley's Government the more you'll see them shy away from these commemorations.

The one thing that is emerging over these last few years is the extent of British Government / Military involvement in killings on both sides. By that I mean the lengths they have gone to protect informers and their involvement in sectarian murders.

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu Jan 24, 2008 20:26

Hi Louise !

Yourself and your friends will be more than welcome on Saturday - and thank you for such a supportive post!

Thanks also to 'WT' and 'Enquiry Needed' for their contributions - this thread is not proving to be the 'battle-a-day' I thought it would be (much the same post was 'pulled' by an administrator on another forum for being 'offensive material' - thank God for Indymedia!)
And 'Jack' - great post and pictures : I second your comment to 'Sceptic' : "On a final note, its good Sceptic that you are involved in keeping this issue alive by participating in this discussion/debate. Its good that you showed an interest."

Thanks!

Sharon.

by Sceptic Fri Jan 25, 2008 16:41

I realize we have to move on and that there were innocents on all sides. However I do object to republicans going on about Bloody Sunday as if they were somehow averse to killing ordinary people in great numbers themselves. The very same people who are commemorating Daithí O’Connell are also going on about “cold blooded murder” and such like in relation to Bloody Sunday. That is a glaring contradiction that should be highlighted. The provos and their fellow travellers forfeited any moral authority they got from Bloody Sunday by their own bloody campaign which they refused to stop for decades despite having no democratic mandate and pleas from everyone from the pope down to stop the slaughter.

by Enquiry needed Fri Jan 25, 2008 17:41

Just checked up on a few things Sharon and have just realised that the full independent public enquiry that was demanded by Sin Feinn for the best part of a third of a century was actually granted and paid for by the British Government.

And what happened after whining for an enquiry for all that time? Thats right the shinners refused to participate in it! Classic!
Just goes to show, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it!

by Ted Fri Jan 25, 2008 18:30

Jack if you are attempting to justify Anglophobia because of the actions of the British army in the north, the same can be applied to loyalists, that they are justfied in being anti-Irish due to IRA terror.

Justifying Anglo-phobia, ie demonising a whole people due to the actions of a few is no different then racism.

Shows the thinking though of some republicans.

by Sharon . - Individual . Fri Jan 25, 2008 21:02

Hi Sceptic !
I don't believe we can "move on" , politically , until Westminster 'moves out' , politically and militarily .
If you are serious in your objections to "republicans going on about Bloody Sunday"
then I can only suggest that you put your money where your mouth is and organise a counter demonstration (' Let's Forget About Bloody Sunday' or some such ?) and make a stand on O'Connell Street or somewhere yourself.
And what has the pope got to do with it ?

Hi Enquiry Needed !
Yes , you're right , of course : we should be wary of any " full independent public enquiry.....granted and paid for by the British Government...." into their own actions carried out on this isle .
Thanks for the Heads Up !

Hi Ted !
No-one here has attempted to 'demonise a whole people' , Ted , even though , in this case , "the actions of the few" is financially , morally , politically and militarily supported by the alleged representatives of that 'whole people' .
'Sceptic' has a ready-made place for you in O' Connell Street .

Thanks!

Sharon.

RSF 'Bloody Sunday' placard , 2008 .

by Jack - none Sat Jan 26, 2008 01:10 none none

Sceptic, you seem to have latched onto this subject of ‘MOPERY’ and the fixation of grievances as you would describe it. You believe that in the case of republicans, the ‘casualties caused by the British Army are played up and made much off‘.

You say that ‘The much more numerous and equally worthy casualties caused by republicans are ignored‘.

Would you like to see Republicans highlighting all the casualties of the thirty year conflict equally ? Would that really make you happy Sceptic ?

As a matter of interest, do you grieve for all the casualties equally ? ( Republican dead included )
I get the impression that you don’t. Do you practice what you preach ?. Its your own story your telling here, it appears to me that your fixated with those killed by Republicans only.

by Jack - none Sat Jan 26, 2008 02:40 none none

Ted, I was not attempting to justify ‘Anglophobia’ I was explaining why it exists. It is a natural human condition to be fearful when the individuals concerned are the subject of state sponsored murder, and daily harassment/intimidation by a foreign army of occupation.

Innocent Palestinians who are in no way connected with Palestinian extremist are fearful of occupying Israeli soldiers.

Innocent Iraq civilians who are in no way connected to Iraq insurgents are fearful of occupying US soldiers.

Pick any country that’s been invaded and you will find that the citizens of that country are fearful of the occupying forces. The fear exists because people know that the occupying soldiers can murder them. They know that the soldiers will never have to face imprisonment for their actions.
This phobia that you talk about is not some unique concoction that was dreamed up by the republican movement. Rather than people having a genuine fear of foreign soldiers, you seem to think that the fear is orchestrated by Republicans.

When one country invades another, the principle task of it invading army is to subdue the general population, usually by force.
To maintain their grip on the conquered lands they use fear as a tool. Fear is a deliberate policy that has been used by the British Government in the North of Ireland.

As for the loyalist, how can they be' justified in being anti-Irish '? But that’s crazy, we all know that they are Irish. When a loyalist travels over to England and declares that he is British, he is only making a fool of himself. He tries to make the distinction with his English brethren, explaining that he is not Irish but is in fact an Ulster man. The English fail to understand. He’s a Paddy, just like the rest of us.

by Skeptic Profile Sat Jan 26, 2008 09:45

and yet everyone rises to his baiting.

The issues Skeptic has responded to:-

1. Lisbon.
2.Northern ireland.
3.Healthcare.
4.Israel.

he has formulated and advanced many theories in the issues, which displays wide reading
and of course 'Maturity'.

Given that he is such an advanced little troll, who delights in divide and conquer
issues, I wd suggest his genus to be 'Trollus interruptus'.

This toad-like creature enjoys working for institutions and political parties.
They are online baiters and readers. They do not get instructions to create articles.
and generally focus on single issues.

photos comi

by lulu Sat Jan 26, 2008 14:09

Sympathies to all who have lost loved ones in the long conflict. We have a great need for mending the damage, but that may require the open confession of the aggressors, first of all the British Gov't who try to take the moral high ground & claim authority in the North while suppressing evidence. Truth needs to come before reconciliation. Plenty Brits are aware of wrongdoing by their own Gov't. & are sick of it all these years.

by Neil Sat Jan 26, 2008 18:50

Lu Lu you seem to forget its Sinn Fein that have blocked the setting up of a truth commission in NI, just like they called for a Bloody Sunday inquiry then refused to take part in it.

The fact is, if SF/IRA are a legitimate army as they claim, that means they committed war crimes against many people including hundreds of civilians, whom they killed.

Various Sinn Fein figures committed totally vicious and brutal acts in the north a truth commission would destroy their political careers.

by Sharon . - Individual . Sat Jan 26, 2008 19:50

Hi !

The 'Bloody Sunday' picket was held today in Dublin's O'Connell Street , from 12 Noon to 2pm , as advertised . A brief report and five more photographs have been published here -
http://1169andcounting.blogspot.com/
- and three extra photographs have been published here -
http://11sixtynine.blogsome.com/2008/01/26/brief-report...blin/
- we had a cold but dry day for the picket , and were 'watched over' by six Special Branch operatives , all of whom had to share the one car : a Toyota Lexus . They 'offered' a better 'class' of harassment than we normally receive...
A 'proper' report will be published in the February 2008 issue of 'Saoirse' , due out on the sixth of that month .

Thanks ,
Sharon.

British 'royals' not welcome !

'Political Status For Republican POW's! '

"No more Bloody Sundays!" 0 Mb 'POW STATUS' banner , GPO SAT 26 JAN '08. 0 Mb 'Remembering Bloody Sunday ' - SAT 26 JAN '08. 0 Mb

by Sharon . - Individual . Sat Jan 26, 2008 21:17

Hi !

Not sure what happened with above post - 3 of the photographs didn't materialise .
Trying again on this post :

Thanks again !

Sharon.

Two of the fourteen on the picket line .

Ireland 'linked' to Bloody Sunday !

Political Status for POW's .

by lulu Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:23

My comment above in no way endorses any other atrocities by other agencies in criticising the British Gov't, but calls for their 'authority' to be supported by openness. Many combatants thought or hoped that they were doing 'the right thing'; some were cynical manipulators & some were pawns, but the grief & loss to their families & friends was the same for all sides. God bless the doctors & nurses, emergency services, & all those who've tried to heal & protect the people.

by Sean Og Sun Jan 27, 2008 16:54

Neil the reason the Provos don't want to see a Truth Commission is because it might uncover the level of infiltration by British Intelligence in their upper echelons.
Also the fact that the head of their internal security, Scap, was a top agent might point to the fact that many innocent Volunteers were branded as touts and executed to get them out of the way.
The truth is there but you have to dig through the dirt to get it.

by mark Mon Jan 28, 2008 15:20

i was on the picket and was surprised at how well recieved we were by everyone
the only ones that had a negative comments was the special branch they pulled me and my friend in a few mins after we had left at 2o clock
but that wont put us off from showing support in the future

it was time well used as far as we're concerned.

by Sceptic Mon Jan 28, 2008 22:26

“AND WHAT HAS THE POPE GOT TO DO WITH IT?”
Quite a lot. The then pope made a passionate and heartfelt plea in person at Drogheda in 1979 for the IRA to stop their campaign – for a brief period there was great hope that the even the hearts of stone of these hard men might heed him. But he was rudely rebuffed in a dismissive statement drafted by Adams and Morrison a few days later, which was brazen enough to question the pope’s understanding of the Thomist concept of just war! The hard men knew best! Thus we had more than a decade and a half more of IRA murder and mayhem. Now their fellow travellers y expect us to accept their apology of 2002 for doing what the pope and the elected representatives of the Irish people, north and south asked them not to do in any case. Had the pope not been ignored there would have been no Enniskillen with eleven innocents killed, no Warrington with two children killed, no killing of two innocent Australian tourists at Roermond, no Tidey kidnapping with the killing of a Garda and Irish soldier, no Teeban massacre with six innocent workers killed to name just some incidents.

In reply to Jack its not that I don't regret killings by others besides republicans. But the IRA acted in my name as one of the people of Ireland – the others did not.

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue Jan 29, 2008 00:10

Hi Sceptic !

Why have you not made reference to the part of that "passionate and heartfelt plea " that called on Westminster to end its murderous campaign on this isle and withdraw its jurisdictional claim to six Irish counties ?

That very unfair of you....

Sharon.

by Sceptic Tue Jan 29, 2008 20:04

Sharon you are dissembling and falsely accusing me of imbalance.

Pope John Paul II made no call on Westminster "to end its murderous campaign
on this isle and withdraw its jurisdictional claim to six Irish
counties" as you put it or anything like it either on that or any other occasion.

The pope's position was that the IRA campaign was wrong in itself - that is
it could not be justified by reference to context and grievances. This
was not just a legalistic or moralistic assertion though these are important considerations. It was a humanitarian appeal that provided a path away from violence as well as a refutation of the notion of achieving justice through violence. It is a pity that the late Pope was not listened to more by the SF/IRA leaders who were at least nominal Catholics and invariably came to the Church to be buried.

It is also a pity that even today there are republicans so blinded by their tribal
grievances that they can no longer see the difference between right and
wrong, even where multiple murder is concerned.

It is not a question of taking “sides”. There is just one upright side and that stands against the violence of the IRA.

by Sharon. - Individual . Tue Jan 29, 2008 20:28

Hi Mark !
Glad that you and your friend could make it - thanks for that !
Hope the Special Branch didn't give ye too hard a time - it's a well-worn ploy they use in an attempt to stop the public from showing support at republican events : it's good to hear that it hasn't put you off standing with us the next time !

Hi Sceptic !
The title of this post should give you some idea of where I was coming from when I wrote the post in question . If you want me to explain it in more detail , you have only to ask.
You finished your post by stating : " It is not a question of taking “sides”. There is just one upright side and that stands against the violence of the IRA. "
So - not alone do you not understand sarcasm , but the word 'contradiction' seems to be new to you , too ...

Thanks!

Sharon.

by WT Tue Jan 29, 2008 21:41

I have followed Sceptic's narrow-minded, rants for some time. Sometimes I opened the door and answered him/her, but then I decided if you ignore him/ her they'll go away and log on to Willie Frazer's site, [Oops! I nearly spelled that with a h.] Well I thought, Willie could do with the company as he doesn't seem to be able to attract support from even the Protestant / Unionist community for his nonsense.
You see people like Sceptic don't have a logical argument, their whole world is a roundabout where they can't get off, so they just keep on going till the rest of us get light-headed. Have you not felt like that yet Sharon?

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue Jan 29, 2008 22:30

Hi WT !

I'm an optimist , I guess - I believe (hope?) that , in trying my best to reply to as many of the 'Sceptics' out there as I can , someone else reading that reply may be prompted to comment - positively or negatively - on something they read in the overall thread , whether in agreement with me , or not .
Even if the comments/replies encourage only one person to at the very least re-consider a political viewpoint they hold , then I don't begrudge the time spent .
So - bring it on , 'Sceptic' !
;-)

Thanks!

Sharon.

by Sceptic Wed Jan 30, 2008 20:13

If its somehow “narrow minded” not to support the Provo campaign or be an apologist for it than I am guilty but reasonable people will think otherwise. In that case most of the Irish people outside South Armagh and West Belfast were “narrow minded” with only people like Joe Cahill and Daithí O’Connell - dedicated to violence only and in the first resort - being enlightened. This does not bear scrutiny.

Declaring victory over me on this thread does not make it a reality. All Sharon has done is accuse me on one sidedness and link to the same republican propaganda sites. That is not argument. She has nothing to say about the pope’s appeal.

All WT can do is accuse me of being a DUP supporter which is a threadbare argument indeed and is just to smear those who failed to buy into the Provo “analysis”. People of the standing of Cardinal O’Fiach, Garret Fitzgerald, Jack Lynch, John Hume and Seamus Mallon to name a few were decent patriotic Irish nationalists and not unionist of any kind. Yet they all vehemently opposed IRA violence. You cannot get away with the unionist smear.

by barry Thu Jan 31, 2008 00:34

even willie frazer isnt capable of being so consistently and ideologically committed to establishment myths and demonisation of the powerless as you are in your never ending tirade of right wing propaganda .

I dont believe your a unionist , simply a common garden gobshite

by WT Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:57

I see that Sinn Fein have chosen the weekend of the Bloody Sunday Anniversary March to announce Martina Anderson as their candidate for the Westminster Elections. Of course they continue to use the deceptive 'Stand up for Derry' [or should that be Stand up for Derry Hoteliers?] stratagem to hoodwink the Derry electorate.
There was no mention of Bloody Sunday in Martina's statement and I am hoping that they won't use the platform on Sunday to further the lie that Sinn Fein are actually achieving something in Stormont.
This is a weekend for remembering those murdered on that Black Day, Justice and truth should be the only Topic of the speeches.

by Shane O Sat Feb 02, 2008 23:44

Oh FFS children.Catch a grip, will ya.
The British committed atrocities. The Loyalists committed atrocities. The Republicans committed atrocities. No one side has the monopoly on enduring the suffering or inflicting it. Holding demos, protests, inquests, etc. isn’t going to change the balance. Neither is this “my side’s suffered more than your side” shite.
Now why don’t you stop this stupid point-scoring shit and turn your attentions to something more constructive.

by Not sure Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:18

Hang on Sharon - are you seriously suggesting that Kingsmills wasn't a purposeful atrocity? Look at the following from Wikipeida:

'The Kingsmill massacre was a revenge attack for the killing of six Catholics, on January 4, 1976 (see Reavey and O'Dowd killings).

The following day, January 5, 1976, a Ford Transit mini-bus carried sixteen textile workers travelling home from work in Glenane to Bessbrook along the Whitecross to Bessbrook road, of whom five were Catholics and eleven were Protestants. Four of the Catholics got out at Whitecross, while the remainder continued on the road to Bessbrook.[12] At this point, the coach was stopped by a group of approximately twelve armed men waiting on the road. At first, the workers assumed that they were being stopped and searched by a British Army or RUC checkpoint, and when ordered to line up beside the bus, they obeyed. However, at this point, the gunmen ordered the only Catholic, Richard Hughes, to step forward. Hughes' workmates thought then that the armed men were loyalists, come to kill Hughes and tried to stop him from identifying himself, however, when he stepped forward, he was told, "Get down the road and don't look back".[13]

The remaining eleven men were shot, with Armalite rifles, SLRs, a 9mm pistol and an M1 carbine, a total of 136 rounds were fired in less than a minute. Ten men died at the scene, and one, Alan Black, survived despite having eighteen gunshot wounds.

Richard Hughes, the lone Catholic, managed to stop a car and hitch a lift to the Bessbrook RUC station to raise the alarm. Meanwhile, at the scene of the killings, a man and his wife had stopped and were praying beside the victims, when they discovered Alan Black, who was lying in a ditch, badly wounded, but not dead. When an ambulance arrived, Black was taken to hospital in Newry, where he was operated on and survived.[14]

Nine of the dead, the textile workers, were from the village of Bessbrook, the bus driver was from nearby Mountnorris.'

Whatever else this was, it wasn't an accident. In what way was it any less an atrocity than Bloody Sunday???

by Sharon . - Individual . Sun Feb 03, 2008 23:07

Hi 'Not sure' !

I never suggested , "seriously" or otherwise , that opinion .
The post in question (along with a few others, I note) has been removed for some reason , but I believe (I hope!) I worded it in a way so as to avoid interpretation like that . The so-called 'SARAF' , the group that claimed responsibility , acted disgracefully that day , in my opinion .

Thanks!

Sharon.

by WT Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:55

I see that the RIRA intend to ignore the wishes of the Irish People and increase their attacks on the PSNI, to such a level that it will force the Brits to re-deploy their troops on our streets.

This of course is madness, haven't we had enough killing, dying and imprisonment in the past 30 odd years to remove a border which is fading with the passage of time anyway?

Would these people want to see a United Ireland with Sinn Fein in power? I know I wouldn't and I would call myself a Republican.

I wouldn't want a Republic with an authoritarian Government which would the equivalent of Thatcher or Bush, a country where our right to free speech is greatly curtailed.

The people will never tolerate a return to violence and any grouping who claims to have the interest of the Irish working class at heart should concentrate on uniting the various threads of Republicanism in order to deliver a viable alternative to the deceptive politics of Sinn Fein.

To achieve anything we must look forward and not back.

Forget war for war will only divide the Working Classes.

by Karl Bosley - None Sat Nov 14, 2009 20:52 karl.bosley at gmail dot com

Let us not forget the 5 women 1 priest and an elderly gardener murdered by the IRA in response to Bloody Sunday,
Why do we never hear about this when Bloody Sunday is mentioned.
On the morning of the Tuesday 22 February1972 a car filled with over 200 lbs of explosives was parked directley out side the Kitchen of the Parachute Regiments Officers mess, no warning was given . it exploaded at 1240 pm .
killing 7. I know my mother was one . that day I lost my Ma, my home ..as she was a single parent .. I lost my childhood after witnessing the aftermath.....

by Damien Sat Nov 14, 2009 23:23

Karl, I sympathise with your tragic, tragic loss.
But why would a warning have been given, as it (the car bomb) was aimed at killing soldiers in retribution for the gunning down of civil rights protestors.
Do RAF pilots phone down a warning, from the safety of their cockpit, to the restaurant or school that they are about to hit?
Did Her Empire's finest give a warning to the 300,000 Kikiyu tribesman it butcherd in Kenya in 1950?
You cant have it both ways Karl...
If my memory serves me correctly, you in a fit of rage and a hatred of all things Irish, went on drunken rampages and beat up every Irishman you could find.
“I joined up because I wanted to kill Irish people. I wanted to get revenge.”
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/life/arti...piB7u
You then joined the 3rd Parachute Regiment, or 3 Para as they are 'affectionately' known. Such was your rage towards Ireland and the Irish that your superiors even refused to post you to the North of Ireland.
You served with the Parachute Regiment and no doubt wuld have entered another man's sovereign territory. Do yourself and the likes of General Sir Mike Jackson ever think that some people dont want foreign troops in their backyard?
In actual fact, the IRA wound up its bombing campaign that year. The Para's, all 3 of them, continued to play their part in bombing and invading other countries and their peoples.
Damien

by HistoryStudent Tue Oct 18, 2011 02:35

It is sad to know that Britain was responsible for the deaths of these people, and being a history student only brings up reminders of a similar event which took place in Russia in 1905. (Sorry for the irrelevance, it's a topic I'm studying at the moment). I myself am British, but have Irish family also, and am proud to say I am partially Irish also. This really was tragic and it pains me to know that the British government ordered the killing of these people. I have no other opinion but this, killing by and to anyone is wrong and should never be justified, and in my eyes never will be. Being a student I have a lot to learn about my own perception of the world, but that will never change. The past of this event will never change, but the future also won't, these people will always be remembered and although it should have never happened, the fact that it did happen means we can now let these victims know just how we feel about what happened to them.
Always remember.
Sorry for any offence caused.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Oct 18, 2011 04:44

By any honest Irish man or woman. History is a long and large study, and always dominated by the victor's account. Keep penetrating the bullshit. The empire slaughtered, and continues to, indiscriminately. many who wrap the green flag passionately dont give a damn for the bloody sundays every day in iraq, afghanistan, libya...the chain continues.

Book for ya. 'Hitler's Beneficiaries', by Gotz Aly(2006 Verso). How Adolf used socialism as the trojan horse to impliment HIS imperial racist dream. Good for bouncing off the lazy ideologues thick skulls. Stay studying. Its not when the pulse stops, its when the brain stops growing, you die.