National Anti War Demonstration - photographs

by formal Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:29

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by formal Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:31

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by MichaelY - iawm Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:52

A big big thank you and well done to the nearly 500 friends and comrades that marched with us yesterday. While in the other relevant thread, a number of anonymous 'friends' and (past) 'supporters' of the anti war movement debate what went wrong in 2003 and 04, the hypothetical possibilities if our anarchist comrades had not bunched up in one corner of the airpost but spread across the fence, if the SWP had not committed another (the millionth?) crime in 'mainstreaming' the opposition, if the 'moderates' had not channelled the movement to cul de sacs (what's the opposite of a moderate btw?), and if anon spoke or didnot speak on behalf of or instead of Deirdre from the Ploughshares..... finally Ciaron's analysis of why the Irish were not up to scratch in our commitment to the anti war cause - as he goes to live in London (good luck to you btw).....
A set of (im)moderates like Mary Lou, Patricia McKenna, Councillor Catherine Connolly from Galway,Mark Price, Ed Horgan, Dr Hasn from Iraq, Yassamine (HOPI) from Iran, Glenda from the US, David McAulay from Derry and Marnie speaking on iawm's behalf told us how and why the anti-war movement should continue, why and how the situation in Iraq is deteriorating and the threats to Iran.
The enthusiam and the energy of the march, the old and the new faces there, for me at least, is the best antidote to the interminable and anonymous whizz and drone by some of those who gave up the struggle 3-4 years ago. They may have had good reason to, other priorities may have come up, historical research has an obvious value.....but Iraqis continue to be killed, people continue to suffer, Shannon is more active than ever (500-600 ham and cheese sandwitches sold by the canteen to hungry soldiers per day), CIA linked planes continuse to fly in and out. The irish Government with its Green crutches continues to collaborate.
The iawm is calling for an evening of debate and reflection of how to proceed from here on Wednesday next, November 14th, at 8.00pm in Dublin's Teachers Club. Similar meetings will follow in Cork, Galway, Athlone, Tralee, Derry and Belfast so that we can go to an AGM early in the New Year. ALL and particularly those with ideas and strategies of how to proceed very very welcome.

by MichaelY - iawm Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:57

I forgot to mention Raymond Deane's (IPSC) fiery speech. And thanks to the rest of the IPSC comrades for their solidarity and support.

by Sandy Sun Nov 11, 2007 14:23

The opposite of "moderate" is radical.

Now that's cleared up, one of the organisers of the march said to me that there were 300 there. Maybe he miscounted.

I wasn't there myself because I was busy, but I also resent the notion of having a march to chime with the remembrance day ceremonies in Britain.

But that's history, and this is just to help you with english and maths...

by MichaelY - iawm Sun Nov 11, 2007 14:53

Dear Sandy,

All of us in the anti-war movement appreciate greatly any help we can get - so a big thank you for your contribution to my language skills and our ability to count.
The 'organiser' who told you that he counted 300 was obviously trying to be kind to you and not hurt your feelings seeing you were "busy" and missed the opportunity to join in - something he may have thought you had wanted to do. Good friends are very important in our lives - particularly those who care. Please excuse this next sentence but your comment chimed with the comment of the radical Israeli Ambassador the other dfay on Newstalk who was criticising 'Occupation 101' - a film on Palestine he had not seen!! Somebody he knew, he said, had told him about it.
As for your chime re:Remembrance Day I'd rather leave it for the day . It transposes the discussion to a level that our guest speakers living in the UK, and the English born members of the iawm, may just, just I say, start feeling queasy about. My feeling is that that was a discordant comment.
I hope you continue to support the anti war movement , in your own private way, and manage to be a bit less "busy" next time round. Keep watching this space. And thanks again.

by Tito Sun Nov 11, 2007 14:58

Ok it was a nice march but there was no way there were more than 200/250 people attending it. To say 500+ is quite simply, a bit mad.

by MichaelY - iawm Sun Nov 11, 2007 15:04

Before Sandy begins correcting YOUR language comprehension skills, pls read carefully my comment above. I counted 475, another comrade counted 467, and I wrote "nearly 500". Now there is a distance between that and 500+!
Hope you agree because I agree with you that it was a very very nice and enthusiastic march. And btw good friend a bit of madness never hurt anybody. Sandy would agree with us that madness is part and parcel of being radical! Lol.

by A Person Sun Nov 11, 2007 15:17

I would like to thank the people who stood on the cold streets of Dublin on my behalf yesterday.
I did not go due to piddling annoyances. I like the images far beeter than the parade of
hypocrisy that marked 11/11/07 in Britain.
Best wishes and warm regards,
A Person.

Many are pissed off and many had activites elsewhere, MichaelY, War has many faces and
there is a strong commitment to change across many movements.incl. Rossport, Rag
and Tara.

by MichaelY - iawm Sun Nov 11, 2007 16:08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ5FI0wMBuA

by MichaelY - iawm Sun Nov 11, 2007 17:49

In order not to cross with the the EU Army meeting with Roger Cole (PANA) planned for Wednesday November 14th at 7:30 in Room 7 Second Floor, Liberty Hall, the iawm has moved its meeting open to the public for Thursday Nov.15th 8pm in the Teachers Club.

by NVDA Sun Nov 11, 2007 19:38

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/84768&comment_limit=0&c...12116

by Weird Stuff Sun Nov 11, 2007 19:46

Nice photos.

Even the ones of government party people speaking. Yes that would be the same government facilitating troops through Shannon.

The article accompanying it is a little weird and plenty ambigious. Unless you reflect and analyse the past you are doomed to repeat it's mistakes.

Why object to analysis of the anti-war movement (in this case initiated by the fine doc "Route Irish") unless you are happy with the going nowhere groundhog day scenario of moral posturing as others die. How personally criticism is taken here indicates an unhealthy ownership of the movement. Ownership for what end?

by Red Admiral Sun Nov 11, 2007 20:15

.....to Patrica Mc Kenna, she ain't yellow.

Look at the petty tittle tattle above about numbers etc......Who knows how many Irish people give a damn about what's going on in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan or wherever, but get this, when the shit starts to hit our streets, they will be coming out in their droves looking for the fan switch!!

And there is all sorts of shit on the way.

Well done to everyone that could make it yesterday, and maybe us that couldn't might make the next one.

by jimbob Mon Nov 12, 2007 00:17

It's nice to see that people will still turn out for an anti war demo. And I don't criticise people for going. I do agree that it is a problem if those people cannot be motivated to go beyond simply marching.
I am not trying to troll or bait Michael Y here, but I have a question about the article.

Was there not an evening of debate and reflection at the last IAWM conference.
What came out of that?
It would be helpful for people who may go to the NEXT evening of debate and reflection, if we heard back about the last one.

You list some of the speakers, and I recognise and respect a few of them. You say they told you how and why the movement should continue. Can you fill us in on that please?

I think by the time the proposed AGM roles around, Iran may already have been hit.
Hasn't there been any basic blue print for escalating our opposition to our government's illegal policy of supporting the war?
We have repeatedly told them we don't agree.
The next steps should go beyond that in withdrawing our consent.
Just cos we say 'not in our name' that doesn't really deter
The US Air Force is not planning on putting our names on the bombs anyway.
What they need is our runway, our airspace, our Gardai and Army protecting their planes at Shannon, and our government letting it all go on as business as usual.

I'd appreciate it if we knew where the last debate finished off, so I can have a think about what I might suggest as a way forward from that point.

in solidarity.

Jimbob.

by Noddy Mon Nov 12, 2007 03:19

The meeting Michael talks about will not be a meeting of antiwar activists alone. It will be a meeting of antiwar activists and SWP activists. Some of the latter, a minority will be actual working antiwar activists and the rest will be coaxed or bussed in for the event. The more important the SWP think the meeting is the more they will be bussed in.

None of the latter will step over the party line on any issue and I suspect that their contributions will tend towards what a handful of SWP central committee members think or want. A handful of unaccountable and unknown people from an external political party will have a greater say over events than the working members.

Membership in the IAWM is casual. There is no test for or against membership. Anybody with a fiver or so to spare can have full membership of the IAWM if they want. This leaves the door open for people to pack meetings. It’s really easy to do this, and any political party that wanted could do it tomorrow if they wanted. However none ever done so except the SWP who do it constantly.

Thus the discussion will be thus constrained from the start.

The meeting will be chaired by RBB if they think the meeting matters. Chairing is his private privilege. The chair should be neutral but Mr Boyd Barrett is not neutral. He is a professional politician with a campaign to build. The last few years have given him a high media profile and he wants to keep that going. If you watch carefully you will see him adroitly turn the tack of the meeting away from any discussion he does not like.

Therefore, there will not be any radical shift in the plan of action which the SWP have devised which has been so effective up to now.
Current Campaign Plan in brief is:
1 Build a mass movement ,
2 Do more demonstrations
3, Do more public meetings to have a really good discussion on the issues and in another couple of months.......Do it all again!!!

That will really scare the shite out of Bush , Aherne and his cronies They will have to concede. It’s only a matter of time.

What status will a meeting like this have? There are only 3 types of meeting in the IAWM constitution AGM and General Meeting and Steering Committee. Which one will this be?
It can’t be a steering committee meeting because members are banned from those. It can’t be a general meeting because that will require delegates to attend. So it’s will as I said be a little private chat among buddies with no authority to make decisions.
It will be for practical purposes be a waste of time for any practical person who actually wants to get stuff done.

That’s why few should bother going , unless you agree with everything that RBB has to say.

I doubt if there will be much open discussion. There will usually be a few lectures from experts on this and that and with any luck this distraction will take up half the meetings time. Then it will move on to some discussion or other in the format mentioned above.

by pat c Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:58

Congrats on those really great pictures. I'm sure they will be used again, all of the speakers look so passionate.

I would also say there was about 500 at the demo.

by jimbob Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:05

But an anti war demo is more than a photo op.
Ed Horgan, Patricia McKenna, Mark Price, and others are passionate activists against the war. Much as I respect them, I don't need to be reminded what they look like.
What did they SAY at the demo? What calls came out from it?
I'm sure those of us who were unable to attend, would be interested in a report back.

by Matthew Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:30

The meeting Michael talks about will not be a meeting of antiwar activists alone. It will be a meeting of antiwar activists and SWP activists. Some of the latter, a minority will be actual working antiwar activists and the rest will be coaxed or bussed in for the event. The more important the SWP think the meeting is the more they will be bussed in. None of the latter will step over the party line on any issue and I suspect that their contributions will tend towards what a handful of SWP central committee members think or want. A handful of unaccountable and unknown people from an external political party will have a greater say over events than the working members.

Membership in the IAWM is casual. There is no test for or against membership. Anybody with a fiver

or so to spare can have full membership of the IAWM if they want. This leaves the door open for people to pack meetings. It’s really easy to do this, and any political party that wanted could do it tomorrow if they wanted. However none ever done do with the sole exception of the SWP who do it constantly.

Thus the discussion will be thus constrained from the start.

The meeting will be chaired by RBB if they think the meeting matters. Chairing is his private privilege. The chair should be neutral but Mr Boyd Barrett is not neutral. He is a professional politician with a campaign to build. The last few years have given him a high media profile and he wants to keep that going. If you watch carefully you will see him adroitly turn the tack of the meeting away from any discussion he does not like the sound of.

Current Campaign Plan which has been in place for the last four years is:
1 Build a “mass movement” ,
2 Do more demonstrations
3 Do more public meetings to have a and have a really good discussion on the all the issues and in another couple of months
Do it all again!!!
That will really scare the shite out of Bush , Aherne and his cronies They will have to concede. It’s only a matter of time.

What status will a meeting like this have? There are only 3 types of meeting in the IAWM constitution AGM and General Meeting and Steering Committee. Which one will this be?
It can’t be a steering committee meeting because members are banned from those. It can’t be a general meeting because that will require delegates to attend. So what is its status?
So like all IAWM “meetings” it will be a kind of chat. It will be a setup. No will not have any say over what happens so why should anyone bother going tell me? To spout our opinion into the air? It will be a waste of time for any practical person who actually wants to get stuff done.

People have seen it all before.

Things need to done to fight the use of Shannon,

Theyll never come from the IAWM.

by Malcolm Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:35

Noddy and Matthew have remarkably similar arguements, in fact its word for word in most paragraphs.

Saturdays March was not an instrument of the SWP.

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:56

Thanks to jimbob and noddy for their contributions. I will try to respond selectively to some of the points you both raised and lets discuss further.
It's good to read that there is respect and recognition for, at least a few, (of)the speakers. We have now called a meeting (or two) of discussion and reflection here in Dublin - and more to come further afield to start planning for the months ahead.
Noddy's futuristic presenattion of what will happen at those meetings, imaginative and perceptive may be, but it doesn't NECESSARILY have to come true! If anti war activists turn up, with the emphasis on a c t i v i s t s, there will be SWP, but also Socialist Party, Eirigi, Labour Youth, ISN, CPI, GP, WSM and other anarchist comrades, along with many who are not members of political organisations. That's what I am looking for.
These will NOT be membership meetings, separate from AGMs, but reflection meetings. There will be chaired by a variety of comrades, not NEUTRAL but committed to anti-warism (ouch!), and the agenda will be open. There will be no constraints and all proposals, strategies, ideas, suggestions will get a hearing.
Words matter, at times, and I for one would love to listen to and reflect on any serious proposal of how this movement can engage in A RADICAL SHIFT....what exactly would that mean, how it would be organised. It was a few months ago Ciaran, at a meeting in the ATGWU, argued for what would have been such a radical shift, in his view, and said he would organise about 100 people to go and occupy Shannon and engage in a variety of NVDAs. Interesting idea, methinks, yet a few months have gone by and........
Jimbob talks, correctly, of Iran. This is why we have enagged with militants and activists who have a good knowledge of Iran - this is why we had Yassemine from HOPI as a speaker.....this is why Marnie, the iawm speaker on Saturday, while putting the emphasis and focussing on our total opposition to any Irish involvement in another US adventure, likely to create a bigger mayhem than Iraq (if that was even imaginable), she also focussed on the regressive nature of the Iranian regime and stated, absolutely correctly, that regime change in Iran is a task for the Iranian people and their movements who must be supported in their struggle. The meetings we are planning would discuss the kind of response the iawm, and the progressive political parties, should engage in if the Empire moves from sanctions - as a prelude to war - to military engagement.
Noddy, I don't know who u r. We have probably met and talked/agreed/disagreed in the past. You thoughtful message provoked a deep desire in me to prove you WRONG. Your pessimistic, you would probably say 'realistic', projections will be a guide for action for us in the Steering Committee who are, and are not, in the SWP. I am confident that we will prove you wrong....my question to you is that if reality turns around, will you admit it?
Solidarity

by Fintan Lane - AWI and ISN Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:23

Couldn't make the march on Saturday because I was moving house, but, by all accounts, it was a decent turnout. Well done all involved!

by Ciaron Mon Nov 12, 2007 14:40

"Ciaron's analysis of why the Irish were not up to scratch in our commitment to the anti war cause - as he goes to live in London (good luck to you btw)....."

...not sure what you implying here. I think by historic Irish standards of risktaking in opposition to imperialism, the quickly evaporating anti-war movement/2003 was not up to scratch or not up to much Compared to the risks taken by U.S. soldiers transiting through Shannon to prosecute the war and the suffering of the Iraq people I don't think the mainstream anti-war movement in the western world was willing to risk much - disruption to business as usual, risk taking or suffering - to enter the drama of the war. And so the war goes on, expanding and esclating.....There are, of course, exceptions from the Scottish train drivers who refused to move munitions to the disarmament actions at Fairford and Shannon to the refuseniks in the U.S./U.K.military etc etc The documentary "Route Irish" engages these issue very well and I encourage all to see it and reflect on it, before setting off again to repeat the old failed formulas.

The way things stand presently there will be a small protest response to Irish involvement in the U.S. bombing of Iran. Why would people bother if the mass rally is the limit of your strategy. You had a big one of those in 2003 and it meant what exactly?

I've got nothing against people gathering in the city centre discussing the issues of the day and going for a march. I use to do this on a weekly basis in Temple Bar at speakers square (with less speaking to the choir and more debate with Joe Public!)....these activities are basic to civil society. How much they do to impede the war effort is negligible.

I've moved to London to pursue a vocation in the Catholic Worker www.londoncatholicworker.org and continue to nonviolently resist the war. My move is not a retreat form anti-war organising or activism that seems to be implied here. Unfortunately the Dublin Catholic Worker is no more. It was a great experiment with few people, little resources and a lot of hostility form left and right etc but the Catholic Worker praxis did not take root in Ireland. This surprised me given the high level of involvement of Irish Americans in the scene in the U.S. So yes off to London I go......

And secondly.....
"It was a few months ago Ciaran, at a meeting in the ATGWU, argued for what would have been such a radical shift, in his view, and said he would organise about 100 people to go and occupy Shannon and engage in a variety of NVDAs. Interesting idea, methinks, yet a few months have gone by and........"

Well actually it was over a year ago. This was the first public meeting after our acquittal www.peaceontrial.com from memory. I had announced at the press conference following the acquittal that the Catholic Worker would explore such a proposal. This was in response to the media questions trying to put the issue of Shannon, the war, and nonviolent resistance to it in the past. It certainly threw the cat among the pigeons with the government immediatly deploying the military and 40 Garda to Shannon.

I spent several months meeting with folks travelling the country and beating the bushes. By December 42 folks had signed up to go over the fence at Shannon if 100 could be found. Some had initiated affinity groups in preparation. It was decided that we weren't going to get the numbers. It seemed to me at that point that resistance to the military use of Shannon would escalate or dissipate. It has dissipated there has been no anti-war presence at Shannon this year besides the small crew of Ed, Tim & Conor who were there before the "mass movement" surfaced and are there long after it evaporated. We put out the word that we weren't going forward. In January the government withdrew the military and the 40 Garda. The media contacted me and said the cops were claiming that "2 million euro was spent on responding to my "threat", how did that make me feel?"
"Flattered!", I replied.
But yeah disappointed, it was a promise not a threat. And one should keep their promises.

If you are looking for a model to run a campaign at Shannon you could do worse than look at the nonviolent direct action campaign at Faslane Trident nuclear base in Scotland or the nvda campaign at the School of the Americas www.soaw.org

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Nov 12, 2007 18:14

It is not my intention here to either personaize the debate with Ciaron, who has offered and contributed an enormous amount to the anti-war movement in this country, as well as in a number of other countries, or to expand/respond on some of the points he makes in his message above. Debates of that kind, and we have an example of that in the other threat on the film in question, don't produce anything tangible except further pessimism and disorganisation. I wished him all the best in London and that's where I leave the issue.
To summarize my stance:
(1) Any proposal or articulated strategy for shifting the anti-war movement (and not just the iawm which is only a small part of it ) from its current state towards a more so-called radical direction must be patient, well structured, with specific short, middle and long term goals. All the polls, including the more recent Lansdowne Marketing poll, show that the absolute majority of our people are against the war and against the use of Shannon and our government's complicity. So we have the wind behind in our sails. Lets hear the arguments in a structured way and lets debate them.
(2) The fragmentation and internal squabbles of the movement since 2003 reflect accurately and symmetrically the fragmentation and arguments within the Left and progressive organisations generally in the country. Following the political disaster of the last elections, a number of militants, from a variety of groups, are beginning to see the forest from the trees. Small steps are afoot to link up, to work together locally and nationally. I situate our efforts within the iawm within that context.
(3) Counterposing one form of action (mass mobilisation/demos/meetings) to other forms of action, supposedly potentially if not actually more effective, is a divisive and counter productive stance...particularly as the advocates of the latter type of method remain coseted around their groups and PC keyboards. That debate would be more productive if a group, or combination of groups, could follow the example of Mary, of the Ploughshares and the Raytheon 9/10, and show in practice, on the ground to use an RTE expression, that another form of activism is not only possible but realistic and feasible. To go on and on that some Trade Unionists, or Gormley, Ryan and Ltd used the anti war movement, or that Richard constrains the anti war movement in order to enhance his DunLaoghaire profile, is getting us nowhere - in fact it allows those who use and manipulate our antiwar activism to argue convincingly that the detractors are childish if not dangerous head-the-balls.

To answer one question above - the contributions made by the various speakers last Saturday have been taped and are being compiled. They will be available soon. Finally I am heartened by Fintan's and PatC's comments and the time spent by Deirdre in the other thread arguing against some of the nonsense spouted by some anonymous heads. We have lots of work to do and unity in action can be a very effective tool.

by Watcher Mon Nov 12, 2007 19:16

It was sad to see MichaelY select Pat C for praise while dismissing those that genuinely tried to engage with him/her in a reasoned way in an effort to draw attention to the dangers associated with the HOPI campaign of villification againt Iran. These efforts were repeatedly met with vitriolic attacks on the people of Iran of which the following is an example;

"Women are stoned to death for adultery in Iran. That is a fact.
Women are forced to wear hijabs and chadors in Iran.
Gaymen and Lesbians are executed in Iran.
Government Death Squads shoot down Trade Union Activists in Iran".

With friends like these...

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Nov 12, 2007 19:49

I feel bad for having saddened you Watcher - it was most certainly not my intention. I am sure you'll get over it quickly enough.
PatC made one comment re:the demo - he told the truth as he saw it and he confirmed my estimates - and, incidentally, the Gardai estimates as well of nearly 550 people on the march - and they don't usually overestimate.
Your debate with Patc and the HOPI friends, a debate that I followed with great interest without taking a part, is not part of this thread. I wouldn't go as far as saying that PatC is "a friend"....it's somebody I have seen around for a long long time and there were times when we saw eye to eye and times we disagreed big time.
I don't know who you are - I sympathize with your commentary on not elevating the Iranian regime to the status of the main enemy - and I wish you all the best in your political work.
Were you at the march - do you support the anti war movement in general and the iawm in particular?
Prey tell. And take great care not to sadden me good friend!

by Watcher Mon Nov 12, 2007 20:42

"Were you at the march - do you support the anti war movement in general and the iawm in particular?"

I was unable to attend. I support the anti-war movement totally. Violence has no place in civilised intercourse.But did you really have to ask though?

by Parker Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:50

Has it occured to you, to just record the speeches in digital video, and post to YouTube?
Getting the message out is important, and it's not good enough to ask people if they made the demo. The technology exists to get a wider audience.
If you get the speeches up on You Tube (preferably an upload for each speaker) within a day or two, you could post the link here with the photos.
Makes sense to me.

by Suspect Ed Tue Nov 13, 2007 14:23

the IAWM has been asked for years to provide audio and video of events and rally speakers - but its never happened. They have often promised to do it, but in the end do not.

Is it too much to suspect that they prefer no public record that could be used against them later to illustrate their hypocrisies? They rarely post items to the indymedia calendar, is another expample.

by MichaelY - iawm Tue Nov 13, 2007 14:30

iawm's next meeting on Thursday 15th is on the Indymedia calendar abd some discussion about it is on a parallel thread. . The meeting will be open to all.
Last Saturday's speeches were recorded by a friend working in a community Radio station and will be available for all within the next few days.

by shortandsweet Tue Nov 13, 2007 15:01

If there was an important call out, we don't have to wait for it verbatim.
Was there a call to action, if so what was that call?
I'd have to give poor marks for getting the message out. It doesn't take that long to upload files. Momentum is hard to build and easy to lose.

by Reddy or Not Wed Nov 14, 2007 17:43

Preparation is the food of victory, but bad organising seems to run through a lot of the left's 'activities'.

There is still to much old 'sectarian' baggage about. I see a flicker though.