Youth Defense visit Limerick city.

by Barney Wed Jul 25, 2007 14:03

'Fascist' and 'nazi' are, among people on the left, the two most overused swear words. They are used simply as expressions of emotional opposition to people and ideas we dislike. They have become empty of meaning. You might as well call people and ideas you dislike 'Fizzbag' or 'Fizzbaggery' or schlunkheads or whatever new word your literary imagination cares to make up. In USA, those verbally challenged right-wing blog debaters on the Yahoo news website overuse words like 'Libtards' (rhymes with retards, geddit?) and, of course, 'commies' and 'lefties'. I used to like fizzbags and liquorice sticks an anniseed balls when I was younger, so I hope they don't become swear words.

by I smell a YD-er Tue Jul 24, 2007 21:44

"Storming and occupying a building isn't fascism. If it were then the people who surrounded and occupied a building under construction at Rossport some months ago (see pictures etc.) would have to be called fascists. People on all sorts of demonstrations, against Shell or the Iraq war, can lose their tempers and eff and blind the police or private security guards.It's not polite and can sometimes lead to blows, but it's not fascism. I am too old to be a YD-er. In your case you smell of inconsistency."

Well, that would be inconsistent, if I called them fascist for that reason. There are some in YD who are fascist, but YD is not a fascist org hence people should counter there protests, not smash them. This protest was counteresd, not smashed. Seems perfectly consistent.

by I'm a stranger here myself Thu Jul 19, 2007 18:38

I give you....

Firebombings of fertility clinics and information centres...
Dr. David Gunn.

The list goes on.

by complaint Thu Jul 19, 2007 16:21

if some one threatened to stab me on the same day that i was actually talking to the cops, then not only would i consider making an official complaint i would most definitely do so. if i actually believed my personal safety was at risk, then i would do something about it, not just consider to do something about it. i doubt at all that the alleged threatening to stab incident ever occurred. it would be pretty hypocritical for a pro lifer to threaten some one with physical violence. this looked very much like a peaceful protest to me

by Barney Thu Jul 19, 2007 03:39

Storming and occupying a building isn't fascism. If it were then the people who surrounded and occupied a building under construction at Rossport some months ago (see pictures etc.) would have to be called fascists. People on all sorts of demonstrations, against Shell or the Iraq war, can lose their tempers and eff and blind the police or private security guards.It's not polite and can sometimes lead to blows, but it's not fascism. I am too old to be a YD-er. In your case you smell of inconsistency.

by I smell a YD-er Thu Jul 19, 2007 00:08

What made me think they were dangerous? Thae answer, my friend, is in the press release:

"recalling an incident in Dublin in 1999 when a clinic was "stormed" and "occupied" for a couple of hours."

"There were also allegations that one of the members of Youth Defence threatened to stab a counter-protester. The counter-protestor is considering making an official police complaint."

In 1999 the strormed a clinic and this time they threatened to stab someone. Last year they told one of the protesters (who was foreign) to go back to their own country and protest their.

by Plato Tue Jul 17, 2007 09:17

Left of limerick states,
"the first time the church has sided with right wing extremists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Catholicism) and that he was a disgrace to the notion of freedom and equality present in libertarian theology. He refused to reply."
Just for the record, the link article above carries heavy "health" warnings. Obviously not much back-up stuff about the place!

by Barney Tue Jul 17, 2007 04:27

I've checked that slide show and agree that they all seem to be normal everyday people. Some of the young ladies are pretty too. Whoever got the impression that they are dangerous and sinister?

by Johnny Jump Up - none Mon Jul 16, 2007 00:14

Whatever is said of the intimidation that took place at limerick, I visited their site and found this page.
http://www.truthtv.org/msgRoadshow07.html
It's a slideshow of their roadshow. It seems pretty harmless stuff, IMHO.

Youth Defence Limerick Demonstration

by I'm a stranger here myself. Wed Jul 11, 2007 16:30

First of all, members of YD's links with various far right and third positionist organisations have been well documented on this website in the past so, y'know, no surprises there, and pardon me if I preach onto the converted, but you know, peeps who kick it with the likes of Roberto Fiore are indeed, a sour and nasty bunch and not merely a bunch of kooky Christians. The aformentioned tales from some of the other contributors who have had to tangle with YD in the past will say it all, and the good men and women of Catholics for Choice have set out their opinions on YD in the past, so enough said there, heh...

Second of all, the chaps who organised the counter-protests are a dignified bunch, who are steadfast in their opinions but not to the extent where they would threaten violence, harassment of indeed, knifing someone. As someone who has been resident in Cork for the last year or so, I'm going to play devil's advocate and issue a wholehearted apology for the people in my adopted city for the ludramawn who threatened to stab one of the counter-protestors, we're certainly not all like that down here. I remember what they said to the wee Spanish lass that was with us, and I was extremely disgusted...isn't Christianity supposedly about respecting and loving people irregardless of nationality, race or whatever the hey? Clearly not if you're LGBT, English or anything that doesn't conform to rigid National Catholicism. It would be amusing, seeing as the YD rank and file consider themselves to be Christians through and through, but it's merely sad. I've yet to meet any bigoted and illiberal supporters of Anton Szandor la Vey.

Thirdly, I'm not against anyone's right to protest be they pro-life/pro-choice or whatever the heck...however YD are about as subtle as a streaker at a footie match and they are well known for be loud and blatantly offensive when they carry out their meetings in public. Being confronted by pictures of embryos is enough to put anyone off their steak'n'chips. Y'see, opinions are opinions and that's fair enough, but YD essentially are about forcing their morality on other people, and getting in people's faces and generally not being very pleasant about it. Trying to reason with them or advancing your own opinion when dealing with 'em is generally a no-no...you'll either be greated with a "nah-nah-nah-I'm not listening" or else, indeed, threats of violence.

Fourth of all, the pictures and the signs. LAWL. A mispronounciation of the interwebs acronym for laugh out loud. And justified as well.

Fifth: I remember the last time I had to deal with 'em back last summer, one of their peeps, a smug little shit wearing Paris Hilton sunglasses, started going on about "how Limerick supported them"...the funny thing was, I didn't hear a single Limerick accent coming out of that crowd at all, whatsoever, whereas myself and the other counter protestors were all salt of the earth treaty city buckos. A bit redundant, methinks.

Needless to say, hats off to the counter protestors for doing an excellent job and keeping dignity in the presence of bible bashing third positionist wingnuts. Which is, essentially, what YD are...there's one thing being pro-life and being refined about it, but YD are merely a bunch of obnoxious publicity fiends who aren't prepared to listen to other people's opinions.

EVER FORWARD!!!

by Cian P Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:43

THis is a doctored photo... but the sign should have been this...

WARNING: doctored photo

by Left of Limerick Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:20

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/other/document...e.pdf

by stick and stones Sun Jul 08, 2007 19:35

'bigot, gobshite, fascist, racist'
when it comes to name-calling its no contest.
pro-choice win every time.
what intelligence!

by pat c Sun Jul 08, 2007 19:03

I have never seen a coloured person at a YD stall. However its true that racist members of YD intimidated Residents Against Racism and forced them to change ther time they held their stall at the BOI.

by Michael Martin Sun Jul 08, 2007 14:16

A couple of years ago a Youth Defence supporter handed me a leaflet in downtown Dublin inviting me to one of their assemblies. The person who handed me the leaflet was a black African lady. So how can YD be called a "racist organization"???

by Plato Sun Jul 08, 2007 13:13

The two guys in the photos still appear to be intimidating the woman. The guy with the "bigot" sign is what he is- a gobshite with no respect for free speech..

by island visitor Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:49

I had the unfortunate luck to meet Leabhras (guy in above picture in white) and his gang of Youth defense superheroes in Inis Oir about 5 years ago. What started from a conversation in the pub turned into hearing their views on life, whats right and wrong with it and how to deal with all the bad stuff. Their views were roughly this: abortion is wrong and should be fought against trying to make it legal, gays are bad, are born wrong, its a sin and should be put in prison, or forced to live correctly, girls that show too much skin are bad and one action the group admitted to carrying out was to make a show of these girls by pulling their tops down or skirts up in public as they waited to enter a nightclub or on streets. All English people are bad "we hate English", when I said how my own family had to emigrate and their kids were brought up English Irish and how they visited "home" all the time it was still "they are English, we dont like them", obviosly we took offense to this and said we no longer wanted to carry on the discussion. But then they started, and persisted to taunt us, we asked them to stop, they didnt, we had to ask the barman to ask them to leave, he asked them, they continued, they had to be removed by the barman, when outside they threw the contents of a pint glass in on top of us, some of our group, big young Ag science students..both farmers sons, left and a little fight happened and ended, they left. We and the people we talked with later in the pub were all amazed at how people could act like this, we were also amazed at how they could have such bigotted and wrong views.

When the pub closed we went up to the hotel bar for a few late night sups, when we arrived there we heard some appalling news. The Youth Defense group went up there after the episode with us and when they entered there, their adventure got even more shocking. There was a trad session on up there, as you would expect on the islands, a young man was playing the Uileann pipes, as he did every summer for a good few years. When he stopped and started to talk he got taunted "english scum, fuck off" or words to that effect. The man was the son of an emigrant from the island who came back every summer since he was born in england, where his father had to go to find work to support his family. When the taunting started some people asked the YD group to stop, one older man was quite willing to stand up to their taunts.... they bottled him, one of them picked up a bottle and smashed it over the mans head. We were not there at this time but had it told to us when we arrived. they were thrown out but then let back in because they were staying there, they did not recieve a hiding, or worse. There is no police on the island, or there was not in those days. When we arrived we were amazed at firstly their action and secondly at the fact that they appeared to "get away with it", when we arrived we were taunted by them from the stairs on which they were standing with a bouncer in between. We heard about their action then and got very annoyed. Words were exchanged and from that, some of our group climbed up the side of the bannisters and pulled one or 2 of them over the side of the stairs and a fight happened in the hotel. We were thrown out but then the "feeding the christians to the lions" episode happened, for whatever reason, one or 2 of their group were also thrown outside where we were standing, quite a serious fight happened there and after some time the bouncers came out and brought the YD boys back inside, one had pretended to be unconcsious.

We left it at that, and nothing happened to them. The next day both parties were on the boat out of the island and there was police there to have a few words with YD, when they arrived. As far as we know nothing happened to them for their anti-english action.

We heard later they came from old school republican family in cork somewhere: very irish, very anti english, very violent, very religious (in the ultra-catholic sense of things).

A dispicable lot

by Don - Youth Defence Sun Jul 08, 2007 00:08

How are Youth Defence extremists? Being pro-life isnt being extreme, its an opinion. YD are not extreme in anyway. YD inst a "far-right" group. Conservative or slightly authoriatian maybe, but left or right doesnt come into it.

A liberal extremist in my eyes is a liberal that blatantly lies about its opponants.

by Left of Limerick Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:22

More photos

The vanguard of authoritarian Christianity appears!

The cops turned up and left quickly.

The male in the middle, with a strong Cork accent and bluish jacket, said he would "stick a knife" into one of the pro-choice protestors stomach.

by Left of Limerick Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:14

Some of the Limerick Youth Defence protest photos

Heres one of the Youth Defence girls

Nice umbrella ladies.

Some of the pro-chocie protestors point out the wrongs

Spot the Christian extremist

by Cian P - SY & SP Wed Jul 04, 2007 22:24

Yep, i made an effort to make sure to use the term 'organised' as it was not solely Socialist Youth members there. It was pulled together by members of the socialist party and SY. It was made up of different people around SY and others we knew such as the one above. A small point, due to difficulties placards arrived late but did get to be used. And at the end there was even a paper sold to a passer by ;-)

by Left of Limerick Wed Jul 04, 2007 18:33

"A counter demonstration was organized by members of Socialist Youth at short notice."

For the majority of the time that I was attending the protest in a pro-choice capacity, there was about 7 activists who turned up at the Limerick clinic to counter Youth Defence. To my knowledge, 2 of these were Socialist party affiliates, one was Labour youth and the rest were independents. I stand to be corrected. To give credit it was a Socialist party member who contacted me but by no means was it a counter demonstration organised SOLELY by the Socialist Party/Youth/whatever standards. For the time that I was there, there was a clear absence of SP propaganda like newspapers, leaflets and placards stating the party name. This to me, shows that this was by no means a typical PARTY campaign. I feel I have to clarify to highlight the broad nature of the counter protest.

by pat on shoulder Wed Jul 04, 2007 17:53

But you missed or didn't polish two things -
(1) all fascist regimes or organisational structures need a mythic past which justifies their interpretation of a present crises and route to their ideal future. A lot has been written and thought on what is the glue which holds fascism and fascists together and the criteria by which we appraise emergent political groups outside of the west and bundle them under the convenient tag. The role of the "lost past" is central to propaganda both before and after fascists take power.
(2) The Other thing is the socio-economic profile of neo-liberal fertility control or on the opposing side - enhancement. The poor have always had and always will have babies who for the most part will mature into poor adults. It is marginally more economically benifical to see them die in infancy or if a longer investment at adolescence in war than prevent their gestation or birth. But neo-liberal capitalism brought us beyond the eugenic theories of Sweden and some US states and most infamously of all - nazi germany. We now see poor people as well as students [mostly guaranteed a less poor future] compete with medical students [on sector and eugenic IQ basis] sell their eggs and sperm so those who can afford the services may against all odds conceive. Often the issues both ethically and legally of what I term "enhanced fertility" and insist is treated upon by anyone who is going to give "controlled fertility" serious ethically based thought raise the most strikingly weird arguments. I remind you and other readers of the case in the Irish courts a year ago which saw a woman enstranged from her husband seek fertilisation of frozen embryos arguing their "right to life" against his wishes.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77046

by law student Wed Jul 04, 2007 15:34

I would consider fascism to have these essential components.

1. Organisation of society along Corporatist lines. This involves state control of prices, wages, interest rates and economic activity in general. It is a common mistake to equate fascism with neo-liberalism which seeks to reduce or eliminate the influence of the State. (Bush, Thatcher etc were rightwing and authoritarian but NOT fascist)

2. Authoritarianism. Complete subjugation of the individual to the State. No culture of civil rights. No independent trade unions.

3. Exaltation of the State as an entity - as the State is generally identified with the predominant race/ethnicity this invariably produces a form of extreme nationalism tending towards overt racism.

In terms of abortion and fertility control, fascism is pragmatic and looks to the need of the "nation." Child-bearing is encouraged for the "favoured races/ethnicities" and abortion would tend to be discouraged or prohibited. On the other hand, less favoured races would be discouraged from reproducing and contraception, sterilization and abortion for these groups would be encouraged or even mandatory.

Getting back to YD and pro-lifers in general. Those whose motivation is to oppose abortion in all circumstances are hardly fascist in the correct meaning of the term. However, there is a strong nationalist tendency within YD which sees the "influx" of immigrants and the reduction of native Irish pregnancies as two sides of the same coin. This extreme nationalism seeks to "keep Ireland Irish" and is essentially fascist in nature.

by Kieran O'Sullivan - Personal Capacity Wed Jul 04, 2007 13:50

I would like to hear what people mean by a fasciest. My own understanding of a faciest organisation is that they have most of the following characteristics:

1. Belief in racial supremicy.
2. Belief in seperation of races.
3. They organise in a top down manner there are two classes of members disaffected youth (street fighters) and political (officer) class.
4. General militaristic outlook.
5. Nationalistic/Icolationist outlook.
6. A back to basics philosophy whihc is more than just what is called family values by the right. Fasciests seem to believe that we should live in a glorious past when everything was better.
7. Anti Democratic they prefer order to democracy.
8. Propensaty to use violence to get their way this is both internal as well as external apparently a member of the BNP got bottled in a leadership dispute/election.

Anyone have anything to add to this list. This may seem a little off topic but if the term fasciest is to be used then we should be clear about what is ment by it.

by Elisa O'D Wed Jul 04, 2007 13:16

Racists,facists.....I do think we are brandishing around these terms a bit to much when It comes to those of us who oppose abortion and even youth defence. When Niamh niBhriain (former chairwoman of yd) won her libel case against the indo back in March she said : ‘The media in this country have gone to extraordinary lengths to demonise and attack pro-lifers.' Personally I would say indymedia is the worst offender when It comes to attacking us who are pro life. Yes,some members of youth defence can be completly ignorant and stupid in their methods of protesting but we are not all like that. Its easy to call pro lifers facist and racist but all this does is deflect from the real issues here.The real issues and questions that pro choice groups have continously failed to answer on this site..........
1)How can you legislate for 'x','c' or 'd' cases?
2)Do you believe that an unborn child merits any legal protection?
3)What lime-limits would you propose?

I as someone who respects the right of human life in all its forms completly condemn the action taken by youth defence in Limerick on Monday.
I have no problems with youth defence organising talks or protests but intimidating people on a quiet street in Limerick is completly appaling. The FPA provides an invaluble service to the people of Limerick and im confident they will continue to do so.

by Cian P - Socialist Youth Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:26

Ya, there was a simlar clash in Limerick when they came last year. It actually got the front page/cover story of the local paper "Limerick Chronicle" with a good photo too. At that two of the women present were foreign. One of the Youth Defencers told them to go home and protest in their own country! I agree with the points about over using what should be a scientifi term, fascist. But there are fascists IN YD.

Debate with Young PDs, Discussion on Che & Latin America today, Environmental Film showing & Youth gig

by Dorothy Gale Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:16

I agree with you regarding the misuse of the word fascist. Ordinary people who oppose abortion are not fascists, even the majority of YD members are fascists. But YD has a fair number of members who are racists. When Resiednts Against Racism had a stall near YD, they were harassed by YD members who were virulently opposed to immigrants. YD does have a fascist core who are intent on building a far right political organisation.

YD and the Mother & Child Campaign are not just opposed to abortion. They also oppose contraception, divorceand gay rights.

by buzz Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:09

'Fascist' is a word which is misused and abused, never more so than in the context of abortion debates.
It is used here as pejorative term rather than as a statement of fact. When used in this manner it is 'over the top' and reduces the impact of any other content.

by Dorothy Gale Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:09

YD as an organisation is not fascist but it has fascist members and fascist links. It needs to be watched very, very carefully. Justin Barrett and Maurice Colgan were members of YD in the past, they have now graduated to the "Mother & Child Campaign". Those 2 are certainly fascists. YD members have also written articles for fascist journals in Britain.

by krossie - wsm (personal capacity Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:45

well done to the Limerick Socialist Party heads on this one - they clearly, courageously and peacefully made their presence felt in a situation where they were well out numbered.
Youth Defence's increasingly bizare stunts increasingly seem to indicate the wild death agonies of a group whose time has come

and gone

well gone!

Roll on the future and free, safe legal abortion in mother Ireland.

krossie

by Jonah Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:11

Sometimes I forget the right to free speech is bourgeois and that a true radical is someone who refuses to allow those people with whom one disagrees to politically organise. Arguably for Trots it's not a right, but a privilege.

In this case, by calling them Fascists. I'm pro-choice, but I don't claim that anti-choicers are Fascist. Nor even that Youth Defence is Fascist. Unpleasant certainly and right-wing absolutely. But to such an extent that they should be prevented from organising?

Fair play to the protestors in Limerick who counter-demonstrated but didn't attempt to interfere with the right of those with whom we might disagree to protest themselves.

by Dublin Trotskyist Wed Jul 04, 2007 08:05

What's with the bourgeois "Voltaire" quoting? Socialists say: no platform for fascists!

And bring on pictures of these people ASAP, please.

by AM Wed Jul 04, 2007 06:17

Voltaire never said that.

by Voltaire can kiss my... Wed Jul 04, 2007 02:45

The counter protesters didnt stop them protesting, they stopped them intimidating women or storming the clinic. It was the 'pro-lifers' wo threatened violence...

by Michael Martin Wed Jul 04, 2007 00:39 Wicklowwolf at yahoo dot com

" I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." ~Voltaire~

Above Voltaire quote sums up how I feel about Youth Defence AND those Socialists demonstrating against them. The right to freedom of speech must always be regarded as paramount, folks!

by Jolly Red Giant - Socialist Party/CWI Tue Jul 03, 2007 22:22

Abortion Demos Clash at Clinic

Gardai were called in to guard the entrance to the Family Planning Clinic on Mallow Street on Monday when pro-life protesters picketed it. The pro-life group, Youth Defence, was also met by a group of young people who attempted to counter them.

A counter demonstration was organized by members of Socialist Youth at short notice. They aimed to "protect the clinic ,and any women going in, from intimidation" according to Cian Prendiville, spokesperson for Socialist Youth, recalling an incident in Dublin in 1999 when a clinic was "stormed" and "occupied" for a couple of hours.

Yesterday's protest was the Limerick stop-off on Youth Defence's national tour. They were demanding that women no longer be permitted to travel to England for abortions. Asked why they chose to target the clinic instead of the main streets of Limerick they claimed to know of cases where women had gone to England to get an abortion after attending the clinic.

The flyer they distributed states: "there is never any medical need for an abortion. Women are being exploited by the abortion industry for profit".

In response Mr. Prendiville from Socialist Youth said: "That is nonsense. There are very real social, economic and health reasons why sometimes women in crisis pregnancies want to have abortions, for instance in the recent Miss D case."

There were also allegations that one of the members of Youth Defence threatened to stab a counter-protester. The counter-protestor is considering making an official police complaint.

Mr Prendiville went on to say "The real issue is whether women should have to travel away from their friends and family to have an abortion or not. There needs to be free contraception and proper sex education, but we should support the decisions of women in crisis pregnancies too."

Socialist Youth will be discussing these issues and others at an upcoming forum for young people titled "RESISTANCE" on the 21st of July upstairs in Riddlers Bar on Sarsfield street.

--
Socialist Youth, Limerick

by Left of Limerick Tue Jul 03, 2007 21:34

Photographs to follow soon....