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press release
Monday June 25, 2007 16:38
by Feminist - Ógra Shinn Féin
osfnational at yahoo dot ie
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Comments (37 of 37)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37Glad to see OSF take such a strong stand. Can we assume this means OSF will be represented at the Rally for Choice on Saturday June 30 at the Central Bank?
One of the express problems within mainstream political movements is not alone
lack of encouragement of feminist issues but encouragement and then ignoring
the issues. ways of dealing with this are adequate funding of internal women's
groups within parties and recognition of the value of women's work.
There is a huge amount of anti-globalisation and feminist movements:
here are some links for the feminists in ogra Sinn Fein.
http://europeanfeministforum.org/spip.php?article215&la...ng=en
http://grepgrrl.org/wp/?page_id=41
Organising within party structures requires a degree of commitment to the issues relevant
to women and one of the most pertinent ones is the failure of the parties to select women
for council and parliamentary selections, this is often because the agenda for political
change is dominated by the competition aspect of male politics and its failures,
particularly in relation to violence against women and abortion issues are evident in
the language used by these same people. I hope that the issue works out and that
a generational impetus is included!
““I’m not a feminist, but …”! “
It’s well known that any criticism of feminism is not accepted so this article is just further perpetuating the myth.
“Many young people have come to view feminism as at best outmoded and unnecessary, at worst “anti-male”.”
Well I wonder were that belief comes from. It couldn’t be from the constant spin we hear from feminism.
“those opponents are, by and large, the same people who oppose equality for ethnic minorities and the working class.””
Always a great way to win an argument, lump people in with other uncivilized groups.
propaganda. not propoganda. Do you have a spell check?
It sounds like the chip on the shoulder again. If there were more women organising
there would be less bickering, however when women organising is treated with mistrust
and negativity what happens is this- they are isolated. hived off. called trouble-makers.
asked about equality as if it were a disease.
Feminist organisation requires respect for - woman's space- and then to bring
issues relevant to women to the table, ignoring the issue of difference of approach to
matters of gender issue will not make 'em go away. One of the problems with both
the left and the right is this: There are no women in decision making places because
there is no recognition of inequality as such. 'we are all the same' (then why are
women so blatantly ignored and left out of the decision making processes)???
“propaganda. not propoganda. Do you have a spell check?”
Correcting people’s spelling on a post is the usual way to put down their opinion, not a very good one though.
“It sounds like the chip on the shoulder again.”
The chip on my shoulder is that I’ve been listening to unopposed feminist spin for the last thirty years and most men now see a huge disparity from what’s being said and their everyday reality.
“There are no women in decision making places because there is no recognition of inequality as such.”
I don’t know what decision making places you are referring too.
“ignoring the issue of difference of approach to matters of gender issue will not make 'em go away”
I don’t know what issues you are referring to.
"It couldn’t be from the constant spin we hear from feminism."
Actually as the article points out, it isn't feminism that spins things that way but the opponents of feminism. And yes many of them are racist and classist as well - you can't seriously be denying that, can you?
“it isn't feminism that spins things that way but the opponents of feminism.”
Well where is the reasonable voice of Feminism because I don’t see it anywhere, at any level. Especially not in organizations devoted to women’s issues nor even in the general female population.
“And yes many of them are racist and classist as well - you can't seriously be denying that, can you?”
This was included to make anyone criticizing feminism as being an idiot lumped in with other such groups, a very subtle manipulation.
When feminists also tackle discrimination against men, e.g. in family law -
in other words when discrimination and not gender becomes the main issue -
then they will garner more support from men and women in general.
- "Organising within party structures requires a degree of commitment to the issues relevant to women "
In my book this is called infiltration, a small group organized for a specific agenda and not the agenda of the common good. Surely this is what elected representatives are supposed to do, ensure the common good.
What most men haven't woken up to yet is that many of the governments services, particularly social services, as well as other influential organizations are completely infiltrated by feminists of both gender. There is no dissenting opinions in any of these organizations, PC has tied people up in knots and the feminist agenda is beyond reproach.
In my opinion feminism is causing a big gap between the sexes and is one aspect of our breakdown in society. Like all 'isms' it requires an enemy to continue and grow and in this case the enemy is men. Feminism is inherently anti-men.
Davekey - I was going to ask what you think reasonable feminism would be, but now that you've admitted you think feminism is "inherently anti-men" there doesn't seem to be much point - you've obviously created a tautology in your mind.
I'd still like to hear your answer to the question: do you deny that many anti-feminists are also racist and classist?
On dd's point re. the family law system, most of us would recognise that it is inherently biased and that fathers often get the short end of the stick. This is not because the system is permeated by feminism though, just the opposite - it's because judges tend to hold traditionalist, stereotyped views of women as 'natural' caregivers. Feminists have always held that true equality would benefit both sexes and this is a perfect example.
Feminism is inherently anti-men, it comes across in all the statements and nuances. I also was briefly involved with a voluntary group affiliated to a major women’s group and experienced first hand the type of ‘training’ provided. It was all one sided brainwashing with no dissenting voices. It was a real eye-opener for me.
“do you deny that many anti-feminists are also racist and classist?”
I don’t know why you are still pursuing this question which is nothing but a manipulation trick to squash any dissent.
“it's because judges tend to hold traditionalist, stereotyped views of women as 'natural' caregivers.”
It’s a nice cop-out to blame the judges, the truth is that women know how to work the system and will use every trick in the book, legal or otherwise, to get what they want. They are well tutored in how to do this.
I'm advising a man who is going through a difficult separation at the moment. I'm also a committed feminist. The way family law decisions treat men in Ireland is appalling. All solcicitors - male and female alike - are advising men that basically they should not even attempt to fight their corner - while encouraging women clients on how to play the system because it is completely true that the judges are psychotically biased in favour of the traditional role for the woman as mother and victim. The man I am helping sustained years of violence from his wife and almost never retaliated. His wife is claiming that he used to beat her. She almost succeeded in having him barred from his home before he finally left and has a crew of women social workers who all believe her pathetic victim act. One social worker told him that she had no need to hear his side of the story because she had already heard it from his wife. This situation is one of very few instances where sexism is favouring women - they are seen as dependent and in need of protection. Some women are ruthless about exploiting this.
-"This situation is one of very few instances where sexism is favouring women"
Well this feels like a very big instance to me, considering all the various agencies are victimising men. So could you please expand on what you mean.
it always makes me smile that any discussion of feminism always ends up with men focussing on how badly men are treated.
I acknowledge that men arent getting a good deal out of this patriarchal, capitalist socirty either and its shameful - as is the treatment of women in this society
feminism is anti-partriarchy not anti-men..
admittedly there were some strands of feminism (radical/seperatist feminism) which went out on a limb castigating all men as perpetrators of patriarchy.
This isnt the case and any feminist worth her or his salt realises this.
Whilst women (and sometimes men) still do not have equal rights feminism will continue to fight for equal rights.
“it always makes me smile that any discussion of feminism always ends up with men focussing on how badly men are treated.”
Well this is pretty rich considering how many posts, including yours, are complaining about how women are treated. Yet I still haven’t got any specifics on this.
“feminism is anti-partriarchy not anti-men..”
This is a nice one-liner but I can’t discern any difference, considering patriarchy is supposedly male domination. I don’t come across to many feminists either who make such distinctions.
We have lived in a patriarchy for millenia - inside a system which still sees the vast majority of power and wealth concentrated in the hands of men. There are deep-seated, ingrained anti-woman attitudes which affect us in this context. These attitudes are ugly and oppressive and they operate on many different levels. Feminism had barely begun to raise a challenge to all of that when the backlash began. We have been villified and caricatured. You are right Daveky - we are making our presence felt more and more. Eventually we will have a society that reflects both perspectives from a position of mutual respect and appreciation - one that does not assume that the norm is the male perspective. What is so terrible about that?
Our struggle for equality continues. The term feminism needs to be rehabilitated and it is up to women to make that happen. That's fundamental. Feminism has a huge role to play in liberating women and men from the evil of sexism. Feminism may be critical to our survival as species in ways that may not yet be apparent. Women need to reject the lies, distortions and caricatures that have been used to silence and marginalise us - especially strong women's voices. From Medusa to Andrea Dworkin - the caricatures are identical: scheming, ugly, vile etc etc. This stuff is really laughable but it operates as a potent deterrent to women who are taught to fear the disapprobation of men more than to value their own self-worth. Many women unconsciously teach their daughters that same lesson - in their relationships with their partners and in unthinking acceptance of the status quo. It is very difficult to break out of that mould from within a male dominated culture that uses every weapon at its disposal to discourage it: ridicule, marginalisation, hatred, revenge. The snarl of the outraged male ego is something that feminists have to come to terms with. It plays out in more or less the same predictable format everytime around so it's not as if we don't know what to anticipate. We should stop being intimidated by it and work out ways to neutralise this response effectively.
Like any political or social movement, feminism is characterised by different strands of thought - some more extreme than others. So what? It's not as if we can't point to the almost exclusively male- oriientated cannon of cultural, social and political thought and find many more examples of extreme thought - many of which are still affecting women horrifically without so much as a murmur from the majority of men. There is nothing for feminists to apologise for. We are not arguing that we are perfect only that we are equal.
"Feminism is inherently anti-men, it comes across in all the statements and nuances."
How does it come across in, for example, the article at the top of this post?
"I also was briefly involved with a voluntary group affiliated to a major women’s group"
What group?
"I don’t know why you are still pursuing this question which is nothing but a manipulation trick to squash any dissent."
I don't know why you refuse to answer the question, well on second thought I think I do.
"the truth is that women know how to work the system and will use every trick in the book, legal or otherwise, to get what they want. They are well tutored in how to do this."
So it's not feminism you have a problem with at all, but women.
Men and women suffer within a society and a constitution which delineates sex roles
narrowly, a lot of men have lost out in their need to bring up their kids , as women have
because of the perception of them through our institutions as the 'care-givers'. many would
like to swap places but the courts delineate these stereotypes and the problems of stress
and violence stem from these pressures. feminism is about dropping the view of woman
as sexual object and as a care-giver. it is necessary because despite the universal equality
that so many believe has been achieved- In terms of representation, Ireland is the most gender
imbalanced state in the EU. At the basis of all collectives and communities is the individual
and we are sending deep messages that women are simply inept and unable to represent
issues such as birth issues. childcare. choice. politics. to our daughters because our organisational
systems are designed around male competitiveness. Breast-feeding is not on the agenda
but war is. Adequate maternity services are not on the agenda but football stadiums are.
Elderly care is a matter of 'figures' and 'achievable goals' whilst some people live in desolation
and isolation because they have no supports. Our society is comprised of both men and women
but in terms of representation it is almost wholly composed of men, this includes at
political and church level. That is simply the way it is and because of that there is a lack of
balance in issues that effect our society. this is evident in other male dominated cultures
too and it is plainly obvious that the current government suffered a huge hit to their
'overall majority' because they were not capable of response on issues relating to
community. Really and truly ask any woman in the street about the GAA/national stadium
and she will ask why there are inadequate health services for her family. Politics are
suffering through lack of equal representation and are perceived as a boys club by many
women. Adressing imbalance of representation and sexual stereotypes is part of the job
of feminism, the other part is netwroking and strengthening women's voice. It should
not always be greeted with mistrust . i would rather have a woman with her experience
of issues relevant to me in power than someone like Ian Paisley who relies entirely
on facades and poses.
Lucinda Marshall highlights sexism in the US mainstream media:
http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2007-06/18marsha...l.cfm
Firstly, I'd like to make it clear that I have absolutely no affiliation with OSF... not my cup of tea at all.
However, i just couldn't let such a choice example of dim-witted "wisdom" pass without comment...
"Feminism is inherently anti-men, it comes across in all the statements and nuances."
I'd be interested in knowing what branch of feminism you are referring to here, or indeed what wave...
Correct me if I am wrong, but you don't seem to have too firm a grasp on the topic of feminism, (despite your assertion af familiarity with "all the statements and nuances") in all or indeed any of its forms....
What of the feminist theories (and I am using the term feminist here in its broadest possible sense) of the likes of Alice Walker, Clenora Hudson-Weems or Carole J. Adams? What of, say, Stiwanism?
Is it feminist stances against infibulation you have a problem with/perceive as "anti-men"?
Those against the practice of selling pre-pubescent girls into marriage?
Or just those with the audacity to seek equal pay for equal work or the right to control their own reproductive systems?
If by "anti-men" you mean:
"anti-the-right-of-men-to-use-and-abuse-other-individuals-to-suit-their-own-needs"...
...then yes, feminism IS inherently anti-men. Otherwise, you really should do a little reading in order to know what feminism ACTUALLY IS, before you take such a strong stand against it.... (even if all it amounts to is a quick search on Wikipedia, as clearly, you haven't even taken the time to do that!)
-“dim-witted "wisdom" pass without comment…”
Ouch!
Is it feminist stances against infibulation you have a problem with/perceive as "anti-men"?
This is just a cheap-shot.
-”Those against the practice of selling pre-pubescent girls into marriage?”
I don’t know anyone who isn’t against this or how it is relevant to this discussion.
-“Correct me if I am wrong, but you don't seem to have too firm a grasp on the topic of feminism, (despite your assertion af familiarity with "all the statements and nuances") in all or indeed any of its forms.…”
No I don’t have a grasp on the topic of feminism and yes I am familiar with it’s media statements and subtle manipulations and how it is taking over agencies which are supposed to be gender neutral.
-”"anti-the-right-of-men-to-use-and-abuse-other-individuals-to-suit-their-own-needs"...
...then yes, feminism IS inherently anti-men.”
Well thank you for clarifying this and your attitude towards men. Are you the reasonable or extreme voice of feminism?
-“I don't know why you refuse to answer the question, well on second thought I think I do.”
Ah yes well done, you have found me out. Does that mean all my opinions from now on are invalid?
-”So it's not feminism you have a problem with at all, but women.”
It's the way feminism is shaping women and men today, and no it’s not just feminists but all of the extreme one-sided views that are nothing more than social engineering for the agenda of the elites.
It’s young men who I feel sorry for today, they don’t get a look in and are completely alienated by society. All the pointers of powerlessness in society e.g. alcoholism, drug abuse, suicide are all overwhelmingly male issues. Yet all we ever hear about is how powerless women are.
I still haven't heard how women are being discriminated in our society.
The kids who are dying because they are alienated from a corrupt and repressive society
Do they have mothers?
Do those mothers have power to change things for their kids- to point out the
abuse of money and corruption by the capitalist view of traditional family?
The only people who are democratically represented is a bunch of private school boys
who seek to order our society- which was conceived as a socialist republic of
equals for their own benefit. Feminism is about increasing the voices of women, some
of whom have kids to bring the issues of lack of services to the table.
Davekey- organising for change requires letting go of images that seek to negate
your sisters/daughters/mother and bring everyone into the dicussion.
women stand outside these idiotic and jostling power structures where a few
thick men seek to create an illusion of democracy which only seeks to advance their
own corruption. We want to see the nurses/the pro-choicers/ the union reps/the
educators/the volunteers in women's issues using the media and being a part of
our decision-making within our communities. not the thick Bertie Ahern and his shower
of corruptors.
Feminism is about strengthening access to that and it is about working in
co-operation with men who recognise the rot that passes for democracy and betrays
the whole idea of a nation of equals. the government cannot represent women because
it is almost entirely composed of men who seem obsessed with money , sport, and
horse racing.
-“organising for change requires letting go of images that seek to negate
your sisters/daughters/mother and bring everyone into the dicussion.
women stand outside these idiotic and jostling power structures where a few
thick men seek to create an illusion of democracy”
I agree the whole system is completely corrupt, not just the politicians but at every level. However I don’t understand why you refer to them as a few thick men, as if women are excluded from this category. It’s these constant remarks to negate men that means feminism will never be the solution for this. It’s just replacing one form of sexism for another.
-“the volunteers in women's issues using the media and being a part of our decision-making within our communities”
Again it’s all about women.
-“the government cannot represent women because it is almost entirely composed of men who seem obsessed with money , sport, and horse racing.”
Well I totally agree but what are women obsessed with - money, Big Brother, health spas and the latest fashion accessories. It isn’t a sexist problem that’s wrong with this country it’s the complete neo-liberal agenda that has taken over and is pulling down the fabric and identity of our society and replacing it with rampant consumerism. We are being systematically brainwashed by the media while our democracy is being outsourced to the EU. Liberalism is portrayed as a great step for humanity but it’s really just an empty drug which leads to perverse individualism and exploitation of people. These aren’t women’s issues they are issues for society as a whole. But feminism always wants to hijack every issue.
Excerpt from article about subtle forms of sexism - link to website below:
"So -- I started digging. I dug for five straight days, sifting through every shovel-load of soil with my fingers to catch any tuber fragments I lopped off with my spade. I even pulled out the stone pavers surrounding the planting bed, one by one, when I discovered the infernal tubers were growing between and underneath them (and as I found out when I moved an old rosebush, they also twine around the roots of other plants). In the end, I unearthed about 90 pound of sunflower tubers. I figure I moved at least a ton of dirt in the process as well.
So I planted my lettuce and carrots, and green beans, and tomatoes and summer squash, and spread soft mulch all around them with tender loving care. And do you know what? I still have those fucking sunflowers sprouting up in my vegetable garden.
But here's the thing: while I was doing all this digging and sifting and cursing at the sunflowers, I was also thinking about this issue on sexism. I chose this topic because I've noticed we've stopped talking about sexism and the subtle and not-so-subtle ways it plays out in women's lives, and I'm not so sure that's a good thing. These days, we mostly hear about the choices women have and why they make them -- not the choices women don't have, and why. And I started thinking, the way my sunflowers grow is a pretty good analogy for how sexism (and racism, and classism, and homophobia, and all the other ideological detritus that limits our lives) works in a society. The tall, green part of the plant is a problem, because once it spreads, it blocks out all the light and nothing else can grow. Some folks might look at the sunflowers and think: Well, they do have pretty yellow flowers -- I like flowers, flowers are nice, it would be crazy to dig them up. And those roots are edible! -- isn't that worth something? In fact, it might make your life worse, not better, if you get rid of them.
How I see feminism:
Feminism, like all ideological movements seeks ever more power, control and resources. One of the ways it does this is by expanding into subjects way outside it’s remit and making them feminist issues. Feminism claims to be powerless and ignored yet it has seeped into every aspect of our lives, is represented at all levels of government, has key people in all the important public services and has a network of professionalised and well funded organizations.
Like all such movements it tries to pull people into a very small filter of how to look at life and it selectively feeds information through this filter.
The goals of feminism are extremely vague and in no way achievable which is really what it wants.
A key question to ask about any such organization is this - are there big gaps between what they are claiming and what most people’s everyday experience is, is there a myth being propped up here?
A key question for any individuals of such organizations is this - have my views about life been radically changed since being involved and are these new beliefs something which are now blatantly obvious to me or something which are being constantly reinforced by others?
In the end feminism will get too big and collapse like a house of cards, then it will be exposed for what three is ……
You've been bleating on this and other threads for the last days. It really is quite pathetic. You have formulated no opinion nor offered anything other to readers or fellow users than reheated barstool clichés. One can substitute the words "feminism" and "feminists" in all your comments to this thread with any other "ism" or "ist". It's appalling and would more properly reflect the intellectual capabilities of junior cert civics class debate. Sophistry is too pretentious a word to put on it.
"No I don’t have a grasp on the topic of feminism..."
So by your own admission, you are objecting to something you have no understanding of......!!!!
As for what particular branch of feminism I subscribe to, I suppose I would tend to share many of the ideas of Walkerian Womanism.
"Extreme" feminism (???) is not something I have come across - perhaps you could point me in the direction of an appropriate theorist?
"You've been bleating on this and other threads for the last days. It really is quite pathetic. You have formulated no opinion nor offered anything other to readers or fellow users than reheated barstool clichés. One can substitute the words "feminism" and "feminists" in all your comments to this thread with any other "ism" or "ist". It's appalling and would more properly reflect the intellectual capabilities of junior cert civics class debate. Sophistry is too pretentious a word to put on it."
hmm, That is not the first time I have seen such a post (almost ver batum) attacking what actually are quite valid and articulate points which have raised the level of the debate rather than lower it.
Nice work Davekey. You've obviously ruffled some feathers. Rather pompous self important ones at that.
Though I do read a lot, I’m not a well read intellectual just an ordinary Joe, I mainly go by my own experiences and perceptions rather than theories. Often the intellectual analysis is just a distraction for what is blatantly obvious. These may not fit in with your processes but they are how I perceive events.
The women here are trying to have a discussion about feminism - something that matters to them whether you agree with it or not. You admit you have no particular understanding of it, are implacably unsympathetic towards it and are not well read on the subject. Why should we bother with you and why do you come and park yourself all over this thread, then? You are contributing nothing of any worth to what is being said. We don't want to spoonfeed you through your prejudices and ignorance on the subject. You remindme of a demading guy at a table demanding to know where his dinner is and who clearly expects all the women in the house to come running to his assistance.
Fair enough I won’t post here again, but I don’t know why you had to put in the hook at the end -
“You remindme of a demading guy at a table demanding to know where his dinner is and who clearly expects all the women in the house to come running to his assistance.”
This says more about your prejudice than who I am.
Anyway continue with your one-sided ‘debate’.
I don't think you realise the offence you have given. It isn't a debate so much as sharing of news and information - building a valuable picture of the issues. There is plenty of scope for disagreement and alternative view points but to come along and tell us that we are all talking nonsense and that you neither know nor care what it is we are talking about anyway - how can we engage with that?
http://www.thefword.org.uk/
Check out this website, it is an excellent UK feminist site dealing with contemporary issues.
What about that report about the new female presenter of Match of the Day - unbelievable crap!
"But the Daily Mail quoted ex premiership manager Dave Bassett as saying "I am totally against it and everybody I know in football is against it...when she commentates at the weekend I will not be watching." Sportsmail football writer Steve Curry describes Jacqui as a 'new arrival whose excited voice sounds like a fire siren.'"
http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2007/06/female_commenta
http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2007/06/first_impressio
some of the contributers above might do well to read this article to challenge and maybe understand their 'misconceptions'.
Thanks to osf for posting the article (never imagined in my wildest dreams I would be thanking osf for anything). It triggered a lively exchange of views that meandered from the sublime to the ridiculous. While not always relevant it was for the most part interesting. One noticeable absentee from the posts was reference to what for me is the biggest cause of the anti woman (and by default anti human) norms and mores that have developed in our society, not just on this little green rock on the edge of Europe but the world over; monotheism. Religion as whole has never been good for women (or men for that matter) but the big 3 monotheistic cults of the sky god and their barbaric bronze age texts are beyond doubt the main reason for the submissive role women have filled for far too long. While faith in and subservience to one invisible man in the sky continues hold influence in the world the mutually exclusive aspiration of equality between real humans on earth will be but a dream.