Indymedia trí Mheán na Gaeilge

by stripeycat Tue Mar 13, 2007 05:43

This is excellent and commendable work.

Can I suggest that if "summit mobilisations" is to be changed to simply "mobilisations" ( or some equivalent), then some other changes might also also be adopted?

I think it would be good to change
"anti-war" to "war/anti-war"

and
"anti-capitalism" to "capitalism/anti-capitalism"

I also think we could use a subject header of "natural resources"

by Bi-lingual Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:44

it would be great to have a bi- section, but indy has only two languages
in the languages section- the drupal and etc modes can allow you to download
different translation and language modules.

we do have a national spirit and a language, but we are also part of a
global community and its necessary to extend welcomes to other language
traditions through the site.

updating the language section is a good idea!

by Mario Buda Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:50

The reality is that only a tiny percentage of the Irish population are capable of speaking or reading Irish. There are far more people resident in Ireland you speak Polish than those who speak Polish therefore there would be a better argument for having a Bi English/Polish elemement to Indymedia.

Lets face it: English is our first language, Polish is our second, with Arabic likely as the third, maybe pipped by Mandarin Chinese.

by Mario Buda Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:11

"There are far more people resident in Ireland you speak Polish than those who speak Polish therefore there would be a better argument for having a Bi English/Polish elemement to Indymedia."

That should have read:

There are far more people resident in Ireland who speak Polish than those who speak Irish therefore there would be a better argument for having a Bi English/Polish elemement to Indymedia.

by Duine Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:48

Tá fhios agam nach líonmhar lucht mo theangasa, ach ní fhágann sin nach ann dúinn.
Níl lá loicht agam i gcoinne Béarla, Polainnis, Araibis, Meandarinis ach níl aon nead eile ag an Ghaeilge ach an tír seo. Ná caillimis orainn féin.

by Joeyjoejoe Tue Mar 13, 2007 16:13

"The reality is that only a tiny percentage of the Irish population are capable of speaking or reading Irish. There are far more people resident in Ireland who speak Polish than those who speak Irish therefore there would be a better argument for having a Bi English/Polish elemement to Indymedia.

"Lets face it: English is our first language, Polish is our second, with Arabic likely as the third, maybe pipped by Mandarin Chinese."

Really?

How many fluent speakers of Irish, Polish, Arabic and Mandarin Chinese are there in Ireland?

I assume you can provide the stats to back up what you claim.

by Mario Buda Tue Mar 13, 2007 16:24

Are you trying to delude yourself? You must know that there are over 100,000 Poles living in Ireland. I think it would be reasonable to assume that they speak Polish.

A bare handful of people speak Irish every day. Even in the "Gaeltacht" areas they are a minority.

by Duine Tue Mar 13, 2007 16:32

Bhal, tá mise ann mar dhuine.

Ó, fan go fóill. Níl mé san áireamh cionn go bhfuil mé ar an gcoigríoch.

by Mario Buda Tue Mar 13, 2007 16:35

The vast majority of Indymedia users have no idea what you are on about. This is a waste of effort on your part. Why not provide a translation of your comments? You might even win some people over to your views.

by Joeyjoejoe Tue Mar 13, 2007 17:20

Deluded?

In fact I know that there are probably more than 150,000 Polish people living in Ireland all fluent in their native language, The question I asked was how many fluent Irish speakers are there in Ireland, your answer is 'a bare handful speak Irish eveyday'

So you've no actual evidence to back up your claims, you can't tell us how many fluent Irish speakers there are in Ireland.

BTW Your 'bare handful' was 100,000 adults according to the 2001 census, the same number you quoted for Polish speakers!, and I know fluent Irish speakers who don't speak Irish everyday.

This is all beside the point anyway, Irish has been greatly helped by the amount of people speaking languages other than English in Ireland and long may it continue.

by Buda Tue Mar 13, 2007 17:23

"BTW Your 'bare handful' was 100,000 adults according to the 2001 census, the same number you quoted for Polish speakers!, and I know fluent Irish speakers who don't speak Irish everyday."

Thats people who CLAIM they can speak Irish. The reality is different. Even the Gaelgoers admit that privately. Go back to Tir na nOg, your fantasy is more at home there.

by Joeyjoejoe Tue Mar 13, 2007 17:41

Wrong again,

You said that a 'bare handful' of people speak Irish everyday, whereas 100,000 adults said they speak Irish everyday on the 2001 cenus

1.57 million claimed they can speak Irish but obviously they aren't all fluent

I won't ask you again how many are fluent because that question wasn't even on the census and no one knows how many fluent Irish speakers there are, but don't let that stop you from making evidence-free claims

'Go back to Tír na nÓg'- does Indymedia not have rules against bigotry?

by :-) Tue Mar 13, 2007 18:49

one little question - if "indymedia" is "saormhéain" then why render "related links on indymedia" as" naisc eile ar indymedia" and not "naisc eile ar saormhéain" & I know you have to do something to the saormhéain in that fragment because of the changing case. But I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to write gaeilge either even though I can read a bit of it, surprising amount of it considering I've not lived in ireland for more than a decade. & are you sure you know what you're doing? As long as gaeilge wasn't on the internet or in the OS of computers the illuminati couldn't understand it. You're breaking down one the last defense systems left between the devout tweedie gaelgoir and the machinations of the machiavelian menace.

by RobbieS Tue Mar 13, 2007 19:27

Tá na botúin litrithe curtha agam chuig an bhfoirm teagmhála dá gceartú, ach déanaim athchomhairle faoi 'Gender & Sexuality".

B'fheidir go mbeadh "inscne & gnéasacht" níos soiléir.

********************************************************

I've sent typos to contact form for correction, but have second thoughts about Gender & Sexuality.

Maybe Gender & Sexuality would be more clearly translated as "inscne & gnéasacht".

The debate as to whether Irish is worthwhile is usually begun by those who can't speak it and and don't want to be confronted by that discomfort.

The alternative of supremacy of the majority languages would ultimately lead to a monolingual world. Lets hope such logic doesn't mean people /have/ to learn High Mandarin. Would English be thrown overboard as quick as some would like to lose Irish/Gaelic?

The more languages the better, I think, except, practically speaking this might be difficult re www.indymedia.ie at the moment.

There are questions regarding multiculturalism vs. convergence, but in this case, the English we Irish speak is already a convergence (albeit more Anglified than Gaelic) - a product of Imperialism and concomotant inferiority complex.

With regard to special treatment of Irish, the biodiversity approach should apply. If minority languages are lost from their original ecosystem, they will die.

by bi-lingual Tue Mar 13, 2007 19:56

It is as easy to upload translation for Irish as it is for Spanish/polish and etc
indeed the drupal model has easy instructions for the uploading of language modules-
I am not sure about the oscailt system- but- indymedia went down in January
and ye got all the tech- to make use of it in a multi-cultural world one has to accept
and welcome divergence.

if not surely an irish language magazine for free-zine would be more appropriate
to this project?

that way an indy editor could not impose their particular passion on a site
which is openwire and subject to the ethos of inclusivity of all IMC's-

if one language is being upgraded , then all languages should have download
modules- there are many tongues spoken in ireland. there is a danger of
exclusivity- and of isolation within the indy framework.

I don't think that this is the aprropriate place to devleop such an experiment.

I can add the links to other indy language download modules if
people are interested.

:-)

by Darren Tue Mar 13, 2007 21:22

Between 10,000 and 20,000 speak Irish every day in the Gaeltacht. The boundaries will be withdrawn over the next few months to reflect the real Gaeltacht- although Dingle, Spiddal and Falcarragh will sitll be in the real Gaeltacht.

There are about 50,000 people from the Gaeltacht in the country. Another 100,000 speak it fluently.

To say that a handful of people speak it is a blatant lie.

A moderator of indymedia said last year that they were in favour of a bilingual website. Given that they have the terminology I don't know why they don't.

by Stuart Tue Mar 13, 2007 21:38

The english-irish dictionary at http://www.englishirishdictionary.com/dictionary works. I am sure there are others, but I have not found an online english-irish or gaeilge-béarla translator.

by Duine Wed Mar 14, 2007 13:14

A Mhario Buda,

-The vast majority of Indymedia users have no idea what you are on about.
+ Níl neart agam ar sin

-This is a waste of effort on your part.
+Ní bheadh fhios agat

-Why not provide a translation of your comments?
+Ní fear teanga mé.

- You might even win some people over to your views.
+ Is mó agam m'fhirinne fhéin ná moladh daoine eile.

by RobbieS Wed Mar 14, 2007 14:11

It is as easy to upload translation for Irish as it is for Spanish/polish and etc...

Because language is not a science, but an art, digital translation will always be limited. Looking at Google's translator gives some idea of the difficulties involved in easy translations - (e.g., Spanish-English), but with Irish, there are far more complex idioms, metaphors, conjugations - more complex in general.

Having said that, drupla sounds interesting. I've seen sample pages of something called "Easy Reader" which is a commercial package on cd It also claims to be able to translate. I welcome anything that can help to demystify. No matter what their limitations, such packages could be an aid to learning.

I am not sure about the oscailt system- but- indymedia went down in January
and ye got all the tech- to make use of it in a multi-cultural world one has to accept
and welcome divergence.

Among other things, I meant by immediate practicality, that moderators in Mandarin, Polish, Latvian etc. might have to be recruited; techies might need the time to add the new linguistic options.

With regard to divergence. English serves a very useful purpose as a linga franca, as well as Ireland’s No. 1 language. Almost everyone who has Irish is fluent in English. If they think something is important enough to have its audience maximised, they would be expected to write in English. However, as a mode of expression, there are meanings which can be transmitted in Irish which cannot be understood in English – simple example, “Go n-éirí an bóthar leat”. People who don’t know Irish are not in a position to understand fully, the importance of this. It is reasonable imo. that such a facility for Irish be provided on Irish indymedia, not least because it’s unlikely to be provided on any other: this is what I meant by special treatment.

if not surely an irish language magazine for free-zine would be more appropriate
to this project?

Why either or? Personally, I can’t read zines and their real-world nature would make access difficult to most and distribution an unweildy operation. A ciascuno il suo.

that way an indy editor could not impose their particular passion on a site
which is openwire and subject to the ethos of inclusivity of all IMC's-

1. I am not an editor.
2. I’m using the openwire like anyone else, so this is not an imposition by any means.
3. I put in the work for this because I was tired seeing the Gaeilge option without anything behind it – perhaps this is what should be meant by democracy of the doers.
4. This being the case, you could always write an article on drupla with links etc., or furnish translations of front-pages in whatever language/s you like.

if one language is being upgraded , then all languages should have download
modules-

Again, this doesn’t have to be an “either none or all” situation. Irish is not being upgraded – look at the language options on the left of the page. Currently, articles can only be submitted in English or Irish – for practical reasons, I assume.

there are many tongues spoken in ireland. there is a danger of
exclusivity- and of isolation within the indy framework.

Language is about communication, not exclusivity. Maybe, you could learn some Irish, see how natural and brilliant it is – help reclaim it from the gatekeepers.

The exclusivity argument could be used to get everyone to use the dominant language, no matter how unnatural it is to them.

I don’t get the “isolation within the indy framework.” bit at all – it sounds ridiculous. Is hungarian or Danish indymedia isolated? imc.ie is still bilingual, and English doesn’t look in any danger of being ousted from its perch.

I don't think that this is the aprropriate place to devleop such an experiment.

Irish is a living language, not an experiment.

by béarlachas Wed Mar 14, 2007 17:29

Aontaim go hiomlán le Robbie.
Ní amháin go bhfuil Gaeilge anois ina teanga oifigiúil don AE, ach is Seachtain na Gaeilge atá ann.....

Chomh maith le sin, ós rud é go bhfuil Saormheáin sách radacach, bhéadh sé níos fearr teanga rúnda a úsáid- tuigeann chuile dhuine Béarla. Dá mbéadh na tuairiscí ó 'Shell chun Sáile' mar shampla as Gaeilge bhéadh na Gardaí trí chéile go léir......

Rud eile- ní fiú é argóint a dhéanamh le daoine mar Mario Buda. Tá sé dochreidthe go bhfuil tuairimí mar seo fós le chloisteál sa tír seo. Tuige nach ndéanann Béarlóirí iarracht an chéad teanga oifigiúil a fhoghlaim? Cuireann eachtrannaigh ceist orm go minic cén fáth nach bhfuil meas ag Éireannaigh faoi a dteanga féin? Más fíor é go bhfuil níos mó polainnis á labhairt in Éireann ná Gaeilge (agus gan dabht tá) ba chóir náire a bheath orainn go léir!

by Dán Fada Wed Mar 14, 2007 18:04

Tá rud amháin ar leith a ghoileann ormsa faoin méid atá le rá ag an bhiogóid Mario Buda. Shílfeá go raibh neamart á dhéanamh ar an Ghaeilge sa Ghaeltacht agus níl bunús ar bith na fírinne ann.
Cinnte, tá fadhbanna ann sa Ghaeltacht le daoine óga ag tiontú ar an Bhéarla, ach tá formhór na ndaoine ag cloí leis an Ghaeilge.
Tá fáth amháin leis seo, i mo thuairimse. Tá daoine compórdach sa teanga inar tógadh iad.
Tá mise imo chónaí i nGaeltacht Dhún na nGall agus, go fóill tá an teanga ina cuid lárnach bhríomhar de shaol an phobail anseo, is cuma caidé deir leithéidí Mario Buda.
Tá pointe eile a ba mhaith liom tógáil anseo agus is é atá ann ná go bhfuil daoine radacacha scaipthe ar fud na tíre, ní amháin i mBaile Átha Cliath. Tá cuid de na daoine sin ina gcónaí sa Ghaeltacht agus labhraíonn siad Gaeilge achan lá. Tá siad páirteach i bhfeachtaisí áitiúla agus ní smaoiníonn siad ar an teanga a chur chun tosaigh mar rud teibí. Tá an Ghaeilge ina cuid lárnach de na feachtaisí beaga seo.
In amanna, bíonn na daoine radacacha scaite go maith ó dhaoine eile a bhfuil an meon agus na tuairimí céanna acu agus mothaíonn siad uaigneach.
Sin an tábhacht, dar liomsa, atá le Saormheáin i gcomhthéacs na Radacach Gaelach.
Bheir sé faill dúinn tuairimí daoine eile a chluinstin agus ár gcuid tuairimí féin a nochtadh agus má tharlaíonn sé go ndéanann muid sin as Gaeilge, sin mar ba chóir dó bheith.
Ní sílim go dtuigeann macasamhail Mario Buda sin.
Is fear aon teanga amháin é a bhfuil eagla air roimh rud ar bith atá difriúil nó a chuirfeadh a smaoineamh ar rudaí malartacha é.
Is mór an trua an duine bocht!

by Joeyjoejoe Wed Mar 14, 2007 21:22

I think it's important not to let the anti-Irish crowd go unchallenged on their views on the language, if we ignore them they won't go away, they'll continue to spread their gospel of intolerance for Irish speakers and their message, "Nobody speaks Irish and everybody who does should stop speaking it right now because we say so," will get the last word in the debate,
Most, sorry, all, of what they say is pure nonsense anyway so it's not as if it's hard to debate them, I think the points I made regarding Mario Buda's arguments shows that.

The anti-Irish message has a real disheartening effect on the public, if you're reading distorted and plain untrue news stories about the language, and opinion column after opinion colunm telling you the language is dead then it is going to have an effect, especially on people who might be thinking abut learning the language, and it demoralises people when they know that every effort to promote the language will be met with intolerant abuse from bigots in the media and elsewhere.

The anti-Irish message dominates the media in Ireland, esp the papers, and when they can't think of anything meaningful to say they resort to making offensive comments about Irish speakers, eg 'geansaí-wearing Gaeilgeoirí, joke language' etc, although they don't even have to common decencey to spell 'Gaeilgeoirí' right most of the time,

I don't see why we, or any other section of society, should put up with it.

I haven't posted much on Indymedia in English or Irish for a while but I'll make sure to post more stories in Irish from now on, beatha teanga í a scríobh mar a deirtear,

Cearta Teanga=Cearta Daonna
Language Rights=Human Rights

Mar a dúírt mé, ná tabhair an focal scoir dóibh!

by Mario Buda Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:53

"Irish is a living language, not an experiment. "

Sadly only a tiny % of people speak Irish. This is due to the actions of the Irish language Taleban who have forced it down peoples throats for the last 85 years. The Irish language Taleban use Irish language tests to keep Travellers and Imigrants out of Gaeltacht areas so they can have pure Irish Fiefdoms. (No point in denying this, its there in the regulations, if a house or halting site is to be built then the GaleGores will demand that the occupant sit an Irish language test. Its a good way of keeping the Gaeltacht white and Irish).

There is no demand for extra Irish on Indymedia. Only 35 articles in Irish were published on Indymedia over the last 12 months (that includes event notices).

by Chekov Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:03

I'm copying the Irish phrases into the system - although I'm currently having problems with the fadas, I'm sure I'll solve the problem soon.

by Joeyjoejoe Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:38

More rubbish from Mario, language conditions on housing developments are just that, language conditions, it doesn't matter whether you're white, black, brown pink or any other colour, they apply to 'white and Irish' as well, I'm sure you know this already but as you've already shown your desire to attack Irish speakers is getting in the way of your ability to engage in an honest debate,

You probably also know that allowing uncontrolled development in the Gaeltacht will kill the Irish language because monoglot English speakers will refuse to respect the local community and will force English down their throats, just like the State has been doing for 85 years, and as the British did before them,
You obviously don't have a problem with Irish speakers in Ireland being forced to speak English everytime they talk to someone in their local council, hospital or to their government, as is their constitutional right.

The only language Taleban in Ireland are the Béarlóir bigots who scream abuse at the very notion of Irish being given equal status to English in Ireland, or even on Indymedia,

Re you're point about the number of Irish speakers and the amount of posts in Irish, what are you saying? The Majority rules and to hell with eveyone else?
Why do you even care if an Irish version of the website is available? Why are you wasting your and our time on a subject which won't affect you in any way, unless the very existence of the Irish language is offensive to you in some way.

by C Murray Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:43

it took months to get a gender and sexuality section.
I have requested anti-repression/ anti-patriarchy on numerous occassions.

we need EU languages.

but if a guy proposes something- almost instant-

is that patriarchical distrust of the female or simple an inability
to accept change unless it falls safely within certain accepted structures?

btw :- [I am bi-lingual on the thread- I look forward to reading every inch of evey article,
it will develop the muscles ;-)]

by Dán Fada Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:50

Chekov,
If you're using Windows, press and hold Alt Gr. and press the relevant vowel key.
If you're using Apple, press and hold the alt key and press the relevant vowel key.

by here we - go again Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:53

Chris Murray is at it again - attempting to rewrite history.

'it took months to get a gender and sexuality section.'

She opposed and spoke against the 'Gender and Sexuality' category stating that 'Rights and Freedoms' was sufficient.

by Chekov Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:54

Chris, that's off-topic and also completely wrong.

This has been talked about, on and off, for at least 2 years. Your claim that the speed of reaction is because this comes from a boy is mistaken and typically insulting. You throw accusations about without the tiniest attempt to research the facts and you never apologise when your insulting accusations are shown to be wrong.

The reason that it took a long time to introduce the gender and sexuality category was that there was widespread disagreement on the lists and we had no way of coming to a decision. Incidentally, despite all your moaning and downright lies about this, you never bothered doing anything to help us populate the new category - just moaning.

We don't "need" EU languages. We only carry material in Irish and English. There are lots of other indymedias which cover other languages.

This is the first I've heard of your proposal for a new topic but I think it's a bad idea. Our topics are already too confusing. You don't care about that though - you just want to moan about something.

by RobbieS Thu Mar 15, 2007 13:45

Sadly only a tiny % of people speak Irish.

Sign-language is used by a tiny percentage but it’s not dead either.

This is due to the actions of the Irish language Taleban who have forced it down peoples throats for the last 85 years.

Opinions are cheap, facts count – both posts by Saoririseoir at
http://www.antimoon.com/forum/p78964.htm#78964

The Irish language Taleban use Irish language tests to keep Travellers and Imigrants out of Gaeltacht areas so they can have pure Irish Fiefdoms. (No point in denying this, its there in the regulations, if a house or halting site is to be built then the GaleGores will demand that the occupant sit an Irish language test. Its a good way of keeping the Gaeltacht white and Irish).

Your misascription of motives is fanciful or strained at best.

I think that Irish has survived despite, not because of, the Gaeltacht policy since 1922. The most money gets appropriated by the few, and emigration remains rampant. The survival of what are currently ‘Gaeltacht’ areas is no different to rural Ireland in general, which has suffered shocking political neglect, at least since the Famine.

In many Gaeltacht areas, land-owners have used business development grants exclusive to Gaeltacht areas, to become property developers, building housing estates. Such developments could not have been but occupied by non-Irish-speakers.

Most Gaeilgeoirí, despite your prejudice, are not so self-conscious about their daily/home language. If someone praises you in English or Irish, the worth of the priase is the same. I’ve been in many a Gaeltacht where two or three people speaking in Irish, abruptly change to English when their English-speaking neighbour comes through the pub-door (for example).

Despite government lip-service, some Gaeltachtanna have only begun to receive the most basic facilities – such as secondary schools, in the last ten years, electricity since the mid-70s, public transport has still to make an appearance in most places.

If you want to do something about this obvious chip on your shoulder, don’t take it out on ordinary people – write a history of the Irish Civil Service who imposed Caighdeán (a dialect which was foreign to most Gaeilgeoirí), and who instituted the Education system under which you seem to have wilted. The Taliban were in the civil service and their educational predecessors – Christian Brothers et, al.

There is no demand for extra Irish on Indymedia. Only 35 articles in Irish were published on Indymedia over the last 12 months (that includes event notices).

So, will you be starting a campaign against the ISF section, the bin tax, the summit mobilization etc., etc., on the same basis. Choice is good, no matter how it offends your bigotry.

Anyway, there may be a circular situation where a Gaeilge interface will encourage more posts in that medium.

by Mario Buda Thu Mar 15, 2007 13:55

"More rubbish from Mario, language conditions on housing developments are just that, language conditions, it doesn't matter whether you're white, black, brown pink or any other colour, they apply to 'white and Irish' as well"

How many immigrants speak Irish? How many Adult immigrants have learned it? The language tests have always been used by GaleGores to keep Immigrants and Travellers out of Gaeltacht areas. These Taleban want to maintain a White Celtic Irish Fiefdom.

The Irish language Taleban is no myth. Until about 25 years ago ypu had to pass Irish in the Leaving Cert or you failed the lot, it didnt matter if you had 6 honours in other subjects. The IL Taleban opposed the reform of this reactionary requirement.

The IL Taleban are now demanding that Primary Teachers do all of their training through Irish. They have wrecked the educational system for the last 85 years but they are still not happy.

The requirement for Irish for entry to the Garda was recently dropped so that Immigrants could join; natually the Taleban opposed this as well. Not that they wanted to keep the Gardai irish & white. Perish the thought.

English speakers are not necessarily Monglot, you will find that many speak useful living European languages which are spoken by hundreds of millions of people.

by Mario Buda Thu Mar 15, 2007 14:05

"The Taliban were in the civil service and their educational predecessors "

Actually the Taliban kept non Irish speakers out of the Civil Service. Happily that is no longer the case as Irish is no longer required for entry to the CS. A defeat for the Taleban and a victory for democracy.

"There is no demand for extra Irish on Indymedia. Only 35 articles in Irish were published on Indymedia over the last 12 months (that includes event notices).

So, will you be starting a campaign against the ISF section, the bin tax, the summit mobilization etc., etc., on the same basis"

Robbie you are mixing apples and oranges. Twist it though you will there were only 35 articles in Irish on all topics. There were approx 1,000 articles in English. Where are all of your Irish speakers?

"Choice is good, no matter how it offends your bigotry. "

Standing up to the IL taleban and criticising the Irish language fanatics is not bigotry. The real bigots are those who try to suppress any discussion on the subject.

I'm not against choice, I'm merely pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes. If there was an interest in Irish on Indymedia then more than 35 articles would have been published over the last 12months.

by redjade Thu Mar 15, 2007 14:25

I'm not an irish speaker. But with all media there is always a chicken and egg effect.

Do people really actually care that Anna Nicole Smith is dead? No. But the media shoves it down our throats that we inevitably become curious, watch and gossip about it anyway.

Maybe if there was a strong effort from the Indymedia Irish speaking community (and there is one) to write Irish newswire posts and features there would be more and more contributions by irish speakers.

In my years of being involved with the Irish Indymedia project I have yet to see a concerted and strategised effort to make Irish a language of news and debate.

Until that happens, of course you will not find many irish language posts here.

by RobbieS Thu Mar 15, 2007 15:25

Actually the Taliban kept non Irish speakers out of the Civil Service.

If you weren’t so focussed on point-scoring, you’d see that in no way contradicts wht I’ve written. Many in the Gaeltacht were not granted s econdary school education in their own lagnauge till the 1990s. Before 1967, most were too poor to afford to go to school (usually, an English-speaking boarding school) after the age of 14 – like anywhere else.

You might allow yourself to differentiate between middle classes who have used (and may still try to use) Irish as a badge of superiority and exclusivity; and those who regard it as their own, personalised home-language, or who just want to learn it because it’s beautiful and interesting.

Happily that is no longer the case as Irish is no longer required for entry to the CS. A defeat for the Taleban and a victory for democracy.

Civil Service and democracy? Sounds like something the City Manager would come out with! It could easily be argued that the “fur-lined mousetrap” that is the Civil Service, is a real burden on the taxpayer which wastes much of everyone’s time.

Robbie you are mixing apples and oranges. Twist it though you will there were only 35 articles in Irish on all topics. There were approx 1,000 articles in English. Where are all of your Irish speakers?

Let English-speakers have their apples, Irish-speakers have their metaphorical organes, and bilinguists have both – get over it. If majoritarianism was the only way, there would probably be no www.indymedia.ie and even more of a need for it. This fruit won’t go off for lack of use.

Standing up to the IL taleban and criticising the Irish language fanatics is not bigotry.

As you seem to be equating a language translation and facilitation (the actual subject of this article with ‘IL taleban’ and ‘Irish language fanatics’; since you’d rather turn it into your one of your own Pavlovian crusades – that’s bigotry alright, in any language.

The real bigots are those who try to suppress any discussion on the subject.

As you know, www.indymedia.ie is an openwire – write your own therad if it’s newsworthy. The lengths you go to, in forcing your lack of interest in something on those who have such a harmless interest, obvious evidence of bigotry.

On your latest notion concerning Irish-language requirements:

I’d like to see sensitivity to the linguistic ecology of Gaeltacht areas but I’d rather see policies of general rural support as being the solution to this, than language tests. There are deeper questions about whether any community – traveller, settled, screamers or otherwise, should have a say in who is to be a new member – freedoms of association and disassociation etc.but that is a different topic entirely: no room here for the layers to be explored without crowding out the central issue which is

tairiscint shonrach ar aistriúchán Gaeilge maidir le www.indymedia.ie.

English comments welcome, but I’d prefer strong criticisms to be made in the Irish language, because you cannot criticise what you do not know.

Actually the Taliban kept non Irish speakers out of the Civil Service.

If you weren’t so focussed on point-scoring, you’d see that in no way contradicts wht I’ve written. Many in the Gaeltacht were not granted s econdary school education in their own lagnauge till the 1990s. Before 1967, most were too poor to afford to go to school (usually, an English-speaking boarding school) after the age of 14 – like anywhere else.

You should allow your bigotry to differentiate between middle classes who have used, and may still try to use, Irish as a badge of superiority; and those who regard it as their own, personalised home-language, or who just want to learn it because it’s beautiful and interesting.

Happily that is no longer the case as Irish is no longer required for entry to the CS. A defeat for the Taleban and a victory for democracy.

Civil Service and democracy? Sounds like something the City Manager would come out with! It could easily be argued that the “fur-lined mousetrap” that is the Civil Service, is a real burden on the taxpayer which wastes much of everyone’s time.

Robbie you are mixing apples and oranges. Twist it though you will there were only 35 articles in Irish on all topics. There were approx 1,000 articles in English. Where are all of your Irish speakers?

Let English-speakers have their apples, Irish-speakers have their metaphorical organes, and bilinguists have both – get over it. If majoritarianism was the only way, there would probably be no www.indymedia.ie and even more of a need for it.

Standing up to the IL taleban and criticising the Irish language fanatics is not bigotry.

As you seem to be equating a language translation and facilitation (the actual subject of this article with ‘IL taleban’ and ‘Irish language fanatics’; since you’d rather turn it into your one of your own Pavlovian crusades – that’s bigotry alright, in any language.

The real bigots are those who try to suppress any discussion on the subject.

As you know, www.indymedia.ie is an openwire – write your own therad if it’s newsworthy. The lengths you go to, in forcing your lack of interest in something on those who have such a harmless interest, obvious evidence of bigotry.

On your latest notion concerning Irish-language requirements:

I’d like to see sensitivity to the linguistic ecology of Gaeltacht areas but I’d rather see policies of general rural support as being the solution to this, than language tests. There are deeper questions about whether any community – traveller, settled, screamers or otherwise, should have a say in who is to be a new member – freedoms of association and disassociation etc.but that is a different topic entirely: no room here for the layers to be explored without crowding out the central issue which is

tairiscint shonrach ar aistriúchán Gaeilge maidir le www.indymedia.ie.

English comments welcome, but I’d prefer strong criticisms to be made in the Irish language, because you cannot criticise what you do not know.

I might as well be writing in Welsh for all your efforts at understanding.

by Joeyjoejoe Thu Mar 15, 2007 16:01

Okaaay Mario, you're either a troll, a hung over Kevin Myers in disguise or a very very small minded person who basically doesn't want the Irish language or Irish speakers about the place, I hear the DUP and the UUP are the two main parties in Ireland pushing that agenda at the moment so maybe you should vote for them or set up a branch if you live in the Republic

All we've got so far is bogus claims followed by 'Go back to Tír na nÓg' followed by more bogus claims followed by malicious slander against Irish speakers,

You shout 'racism' but you use the same tactics against the Irish language community (who are a linguistic minority in Ireland) as racists use against ethnic minorities,

re Gardaí and the Civil Service the Irish rules that applied were a crude and unsuccessful attempt to ensure that language rights were upheld, and also to promote the language, I'd be more than happy to debate better ways to ensure that Irish speakers have their rights upheld with you but that would be pointless as you don't think Irish speakers should have any language rights at all.

Re the demand for Indymedia, 35 articles out of 1000, hang on let me do my sums, isnt that 3.5% of the total? slightly less than the 5% estimate you agreed on for Irish speakers in Ireland, but I'm sure we can work on that.

BTW Irish will be a dead language when 0% of people in Ireland or the rest of the world can speak Irish, and any amount of wishful thinking on your part won't change that

I think I've made my point about the ráiméis from the anti-Irish lobby, I think I'll get back to the actual subject of the thread now,

Má tá liosta de foclaí le haistriú ag éinne cuir iad ar an snaithín agus déanfaidh mé iarracht iad a dhéanamh,

Tá na suíomhanna seo go maith dála an scéil,

www.focal.ie
www.acmhainn.ie/focail.htm
www.acmhainn.ie/freagra/index.htm
www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/

by M Cotton Thu Mar 15, 2007 16:12

Is there something intrinsically wrong with wanting to preserve the Irish language? This initiative is a really worthwhile attempt to bring Irish into play in a live and meaningful way. Why all the carping about it? What's been proposed for Indymedia can only expand the scope of its interest and worth. The degree of self-loathing in some posts is worrying - Kevin Myer's apoplexy about Irish culture and language seems to be catching on. (Why doesnt he just go and live in Rugby, or someplace like it, and be done with it?)

Like many Irish people, I suspect, I know less Irish now than I did when I was in school and having lived away for so long am practically back to the beginning with it. Where I would have understood most if not all the news and current affairs progs in Irish when I was 16, I can hardly follow them at all now. Radio na Gaeltacht is often nice to listen to - although some presenters are a lot easier to follow than others.

Is there any chance fluent posters in Irish would provide a translation of their comments so as to help those of us who would like to participate to get better at doing so, over time? It would help us to pick up/remeber forgotten vocabulary - see how the grammar works etc - in real world examples too. Ive tried translating a number of comments from the poster 'Duine' but with little success and the same poster appears to have some objection in principle to doing so which I dont understand - no doubt an entirely legitimate objection - but there are probably quite a few people who would like to do a bit more in this regard and who cant. Perhaps you could have an Irish working group along with the others that we could consult for help with translation into Irish? Clearly any help offered would be voluntary and dependent on the time available for advising, but it could turn into something really constructive in time, even if only a little help/advice were available. A lot of people lack confidence in what they know so shy away from the attempt, maybe? I know I have, aside from one pathetic, embarrassing attempt on one thread, ages ago.

Whatever about any of that, good luck with it all.

by Duine Thu Mar 15, 2007 16:48

A M Cotton
" Ive tried translating a number of comments from the poster 'Duine' but with little success and the same poster appears to have some objection in principle to doing so which I dont understand - no doubt an entirely legitimate objection ...."

Mar a dúirt mé cheana, ní fear teanga mé, agus níl mé ag déanamh ach mar a dhéanann daoine eile ar an suíomh seo .i. a dtuairimí a chur in iúl ina dteanga fhéin, beag beann ar an dara teanga a chur leis.
Dar ndóigh, níl mé i gcoinne é más mian le éinne eile béarla a chur ar mo chuid Gaeilge.
Ceart dom, ceart duit!

by M Cotton Thu Mar 15, 2007 17:14

Mar a dúirt mé cheana, ní fear teanga mé, agus níl mé ag déanamh ach mar a dhéanann daoine eile ar an suíomh seo .i. a dtuairimí a chur in iúl ina dteanga fhéin, beag beann ar an dara teanga a chur leis.
Dar ndóigh, níl mé i gcoinne é más mian le éinne eile béarla a chur ar mo chuid Gaeilge.
Ceart dom, ceart duit!

"Like I said already, I dont have a better tongue and Im not doing anything but communicating with other people in this place. If we translate (dtuairimi?) our own language it will be diminished (beag beann?) by the language we do it with.

Because of that, I'm not interested (i gcoinne?) in exchanges with anyone else in English about translating my Irish comments.

I'm right, your right!"

I hope you don't mind if I attempt to translate them myself? If I've understood you correctly, I see your point. But how do people like me get to where you are without a little help from those who know. I dont mean to criticise or imply there is some sort of obligation on you - but if others take a different view, then some people might be grateful for that too. And it will be instructive to persevere with untranslated contribs in the meantime - if we were all dropped in a wholly Irish speaking country tomorrow morning, no doubt we'd all be fluent within six months. A bit of effort is required, as you either say or imply?

by Joeyjoejoe Thu Mar 15, 2007 17:28

M Cotton

Duine is making the point that other people don't translate from English to Irish so why should he do it the other way around,
I don't really get it myself, he's addressing you so he should do so in English, there are plenty of other opportunities to write in Irish only if he wants,

Having said that I think it's a bit much to ask people to translate everything into English, I'm sure there is a happy medium somewhere, a brief synopsis in English or a translation of uncommon terms to facilitate people who aren't fluent

by useless eater Thu Mar 15, 2007 18:16

Why do monoglot English speakers insist on being spoonfed? Already most programmes on TG4 are either in Irish but subtitled in English or only in English. For decades Irish speakers have had to put up with services available only in English and only after years of campaigning is a bilingual policy being finally coming about (although there are still countless omissions).

Once in a blue moon when someone writes in Irish, they can for once look up some words and maybe learn a bit for a change.....
Maybe Gaeilgeoirí should insist all threads in English be translated.

There is always a lot spoken about the rights of English speakers, but what the rights of Irish speakers who have witnessed the language rapidly decline for so long now. Can we not all (English and Irish speakers) just be content that Irish is finally in a (slightly) better position now what with official status in the EU and the growth of Gaeilscoileanna etc? Can we not at least be tolerant of Irish and embrace bilingualism (not constantly deride and insult Irish and delight in its demise?)

ARE WE THE ONLY F***ING COUNTRY ON THE EARTH THAT SO DESPISES ITS OWN LANGUAGE? When are we finally going to grow up as a country? For as long as we despise Irish, Irish people cannot be a confident nation.

Dála an scéil- ní Éireannach mé ó dhúchas........ach tá níos mó Gaeilge agam ná cuid is mó do Éireannaigh!

by gnímhaí Thu Mar 15, 2007 18:20

GALLTACHT=GEALTACHT

GAEILGE ABÚ!

by Miriam Cotton Thu Mar 15, 2007 21:17

It's precisely because of a wish to be better at Irish that I'm interested in this issue at all. I also see that the request for spoonfeeding, as you rightly call it, is one-sided. But, am I not just one of the millions of culturally disposessed Irish people who had little/no control over the way English was forced on us? It's very hard to turn that ship around - as the colonists well understood when they targetted our culture and language. I'm one of millions of victims of that situation - is it really so wrong to ask for a helping hand from people who have gained some advantage, despite the difficulties? Probably a lot of people feel that they would love to speak Irish better than they do, but it is so difficult, with every day committments etc etc to change the situation. Don't turn away/scorn interested and supportive people?

But again, I think what Indymedia are doing in this regard is great - here is a centre of vital communication within which Irish could increasingly be used as a means to facilitate that communication. That has great potential in terms of contributing to /reinvigorating the language and all the philosophy and culture that lie behind it.