PSNI Puts Ulster Poles as Piggies in the Middle
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racism & migration related issues |
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Tuesday February 20, 2007 01:20
by Mackozer
an immigrant Pole asks 6 county Polish immigrants to think twice before joining the PSNI
A Polish blogger and immigrant to Ireland warns of a British divide & conquer tactic in PSNI policing and recruitment efforts....
Mackozer writes: 'For many Poles, joining the police would be an excellent job opportunity, especially for former Polish police officers. They could join the PSNI and receive at least 4 times better salary than in Poland....
[Polish immigrants recruited into the PSNI] would be regarded as alien mercenaries used by British government to show the world that they fulfill the obligations of the 50–50 policy. This can be devastating for the assimilation and integration of Polish people into the Irish society of Northern Ireland. This 'job opportunity' can put all Polish people of Northern Ireland as a piggy in the middle - between two sides of the conflict - and face discrimination from both of them.'
Quote: ''Once a pool of qualified candidates has been formed, the Chief Constable will then appoint trainees on the basis of 50 per cent Roman Catholic and 50 per cent non-Roman Catholic.'' - PSNI
Related Links:
RSF says Polish mercenaries not welcome / Last October: Racist attacks on Poles in Finglas / more immigrant news: indymedia.ie/migration / Also see: Free Derry Museum - a Review
For more than two years now thousands of Poles have been emigrating to Ireland - including the six counties of Ulster. We Poles are not a peaceful and gentle nation by our nature, so sometimes we have and we still can cause some troubles with local people. Fortunately, most of the Irish are tolerant and remember their own years of exile.
Since the beginning of our 'Polish flood' my compatriots have been facing some dislike in the Northern Ireland. About year ago Polish and Irish newspapers started to report attacks (sometimes armed with weapons) on the Polish community. According to the police almost all the troublemakers were linked with Loyalists. A majority of Poles are Catholic so with the new Polish immigration the total number of Catholics in the North is growing. Perhaps it is only a short term trend, but whether we like it or not, it does have an impact on many Loyalists.
To be honest, most of us Poles in the North know nothing or very little about the conflict, and very often are confused by the situation here. There are stories about Poles wearing Celtic Glasgow t-shirts walking on the streets or even renting a house in the Loyalist districts of towns. Sometimes it has ended with somebody setting the house on fire that was inhabited by Polish emigrants, such as almost a year ago in Belfast.
Fortunately, so far, the Catholic community, or - so called - nationalist community in the North hasn't shown any serious dislike for the Poles. There have not been any attacks reported or any serious troubles.
In the past I had wondered to myself if the dislike and the attacks committed by Loyalist troublemakers could push Poles to the Irish nationalist side of the barricade and thus the 'Lá' would be also ours and come for Poles as for the Irish.
Nowadays, I am sure this would not happen due to the recent attempt to recruit 1000 Polish immigrants into the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
The new police force in the North is at least partly a descendant of the infamous RUC. Due to the agreement between all sides of conflict, PSNI has to consist of the same number of Protestants and Catholics, but since it's foundation the number of Catholics has been relatively low. There have been many reasons for that. I think the most important is the lack of confidence in the new force. For many nationalists the PSNI is just a continuance of Royal Ulster Constabulary, or at least it is still a British colonial force. I can understand that, especially after the famous case of RUC collusion with some criminals of UVF. There was also a question of connections and co-operation between PSNI and British intelligence MI5.
In the weeks before Sinn Fein's decision to take part in the PSNI and almost the same time of the publication of Nuala O'Loan's report, Irish and Polish newspapers reported recruitment campaign of 1000 Poles for Northern Irish police. What shocked me most was the use of religion in the context of policing. In some Irish media I read that employing Poles would raise an overall PSNI percentage of Catholics (21% at present) and would be taken as a fulfilling the agreement.
For many Poles, joining the police would be an excellent job opportunity, especially for former Polish police officers. They could join the PSNI and receive at least 4 times better salary than in Poland. The need to employ Poles in the PSNI is understandable as there are 30,000 new Polish immigrants in the North. However, the number of Polish officers must only be appropriate to the needs and size of Polish community.
Employing Poles due to the lack of Irish Catholic officers in the police service could actually do harm to the Polish population. We are a foreign element, not linked to the problems, memories and sensitivities of the local Catholic communities. In my opinion, Polish PSNI officers cannot be a good representatives of Irish Catholics in the North and they probably will not be a regarded as one of 'our people' by them.
Poles in Northern Ireland would be regarded as alien mercenaries used by British government to show the world that they fulfill the obligations of the 50–50 policy. This can be devastating for the assimilation and integration of Polish people into the Irish society of Northern Ireland. This 'job opportunity' can put all Polish people of Northern Ireland as a piggy in the middle - between two sides of the conflict - and face discrimination from both of them.
- Krystian 'Mackozer' Kozerawski
Dzienniki Irlandzkie MacKozer’a
www.eire.drakkart.com (blog in Polish)
Two blog posts written to Ulster Poles about the PSNI:
• 'Polacy w policji północnoirlandzkiej?' (PART 1)
http://www.drakkart.com/eire/?p=71
• 'Polacy w policji północnoirlandzkiej - ciąg dalszy' (PART 2)
http://www.drakkart.com/eire/?p=73
Ireland from a Polish perspective
www.drakkart.com/eire2 (blog in English)
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Comments (41 of 41)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41As Ireland/Northern Ireland becomes more of a multi-cultural society then we need a multi-cultural police force.
Unfortunately there are many people in this country who can not seem to put the past behind them. While this is understandable as many people suffered at the hands of the RUC and we are still learning of police/paramilitary collusion, what people need to realise is that by refusing to participate in policing then the only people we are hurting are ourselves. The PSNI aren't going away. They won't be disbanded. They are all we have. As Sinn Fein subscribe to proper policing abd CRJ and paramilitary policing becomes a thing of the past, what are the Catholic people of Northern Ireland supposed to do when crimes are committed against them?
Some people would have us believe that to go to the police is selling out and giving in to British imperalism, but I don't see them proposing any alternatives or trying to solve the problems people face.
The PSNI may not be what we envision for a proper police force, but we are stuck with them and better Catholics, Poles and other cultures/religions within Northern Ireland participate and help shape the future of the police and make it more receptive to their own communities.
The only people who benefit from this "No PSNI for catholics" attitude are criminals and paramilitaries who benefit from having the rule of the roost.
The above comment completely miss the point. The problem is that the PSNI may recruit Poles to make up the catholic quota instead of recruiting native catholics. That would create a situation where the police would still not represent one part of the community and the Poles would be resented for making it seem as if the police was representative. As the author notes, this would place the Poles as piggies in the middle - resented by all sides and effectively taking sides against both of the traditional nationalisms in the wee north. That would be a pretty disasterours place to be in.
The illegal 50/50 recruitment for the PSNI, put in place to discriminate against the majority of police applicants only counts if the applicant is from a Northern Ireland background. Hence, any Pole applying will not count towards the 50% catholic intake.
The poles dont count under the 50/50 scheme and repesent a different group in terms of recuitment, its clear that you are more anti police or anyone who is in it, than concerned about their welfare, I think it is exactly what the north needs and will help policing in NIRE in the long term.
'A spokeswoman for the PSNI told The Times that Poles could count towards the quota of Catholics. She said: “When anybody applies for a post it is up to them to say what religion they are — Protestant, Catholic or other. If they put themselves down as Catholic they will fall within the 50-50 recruitment policy.”'
The Sunday Times (UK)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/newspapers/sunday_time...9.ece
Read the quote at the top of the feature from the PSNI: 'Once a pool of qualified candidates has been formed, the Chief Constable will then appoint trainees on the basis of 50 per cent Roman Catholic and 50 per cent non-Roman Catholic.'
Go to the link to the PSNI recruitment effort - it says nothing about excluding non-Irish/non-UKians/(whateva) from the 50-50 scheme. Perhaps the scheme was agreed to when Ireland was less diverse?
Give them guns and let them shoot Catholic trouble makers that should please certain Unionists.
Should let SF off the hook too, as long as it's Catholics keeping Nationalists / Republicans under the cosh then we can't accuse the police of being sectarian.
"intelligence insider" and "Jackie" both making the same - wrong - claim without any evidence as if it were a fact.
Move along people. Nothing to see here.
or is that not an issue yet? great if it isn't the last thing you want to do with issues is think about them beforehand. So without exploring sectarianism and prejudice in the free state let's keep the focus where we're used to putting it - the wee north.
are there any Polish Protestants looking for a job in Craigavon? How is one to know just because an applicant puts down "kathurlick" or "proddie" on their application form they're telling the truth??? Used to be easier. Mcguinness - fenian name & Maginnis clearly prod. But what about Laski? Do you think that is a noble green, orange or possibly jewish name? It is of course protestant. But what if a young and fit, law-abiding Stanislav Laski recently arrived in Ulster had found his cheapest lodging in the north or west of Belfast - you'd automatically after failing the "surname test" move on to the "ubication test". Oh well that fellow lives in the Catholic bit of town. Done and dusted - Laski isn't lying on his application. Of course none of this would have happened if the Irish & British regime had in Saint Andrews gone beyond the "religious conflict" analogy. Let's not get bogged down in why they didn't decide to call it - "national loyalty" which would have been a much easier question to ask. Instead of asking "do you agree or disagree with the transubstantiation, divinity of christ, what about the iota....?" just leave it as really it is :- "if you're Irish tick this box. If you're British tick that box" afterwards you count the boxes. 50% Irish 50% British.
complex problems call for complex minds to suggest simple solutions as I say myself.
Quote: ''Once a pool of qualified candidates has been formed, the Chief Constable will then appoint trainees on the basis of 50 per cent Roman Catholic and 50 per cent non-Roman Catholic.'' - PSNI
from above
http://www.selectnipolice.org/defaultGEN.asp?id=reg_hom...e.asp
There are only two sides to consider for application
(other than the usual qualifications for being a copper)
• 'Roman Catholic'
and
• 'non-Roman Catholic'
Theoretically speaking, the make up of the PSNI in the future could be 50% Polish Catholic immigrants and 50% Chinese Buddhist immigrants, (or Mormon Irish American immigrants, too). I've looked around on various PSNI websites and nothing seems to say 'Protestant.' - but perhaps I didn't looks closely enough.
Ok, lets get this straight.
Catholics should not be involved with the PSNI. Oh no its wrong to have anything to do with the PSNI if your Catholic. The problem with the PSNI is that the majority is Protestant, therefore they discriminate against Catholics.
The PSNI should be 50% Catholics. Oh no hang on. That should read 50% should be IRISH Catholics. Thats it. Now were sucking deisel.
But hang on....its wrong to have anything to do with the PSNI if you're Catholic. You shouldn't even CALL the PSNI if you're Catholic. Even if a gang of thugs break into your home, steal all your stuff, rape your dog and use your phone to make dirty phone calls to poor wee little old ladies, you should just grin and bear it because its preferable to having anything to do with the PSNI.
Oh yes, if your Catholic, stay away from the PSNI because the PSNI are bad.
Right. Now I see. Its wrong to be in the PSNI if you're an Irish Catholic and the PSNI are wrong because they don't have enough Catholics in their ranks. Thats cleared that one up. Simple logic. Or maybe I should say Simpleton logic.
And coming up next on "I'm a one-track minded moron who can't see past my own small-minded beliefs to see the big picture " Hypocrites - why everyone else is one unless they agree exactly with everything I say and do.
This ranks as one of the more barking mad ideas the british occupation have come up with. It's time people saw the northern Irish "state" for the farce it really is.
I would question the sanity of any pole who thinks its a good idea to join the PSNI. They would have to
be either crazy or unaware of what they are getting themselves into.
As for the people arguing that the Poles may be taking up the "Catholic part of the ratio". That is absolutely rediculous and shows how we continue to manipulate religion. Infact religion was never the reason of the conflict infact Catholics and Protestants are both Christians. And if my memory serves correctly the Christian philosophy is to welcome people and to treat one as yourself.
May I point out this quote which was mentioned:
"Once a pool of qualified candidates has been formed, the Chief Constable will then appoint trainees on the basis of 50 per cent Roman Catholic and 50 per cent non-Roman Catholic."
50% Roman Catholic, and 50% non-Roman Catholic... and you are complaining that Poles are going to be taking your Roman Catholic ratio... that is a joke pure and simple. in the 50% non-Roman Catholic section, they have to incorporate Protestants (which are technically still the majority in the region), Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, (the list goes on and on), Atheists and Agnostics would also fall into this category. Infact I don't even think the ratio is entirely fair considering according to this Roman Catholics have a larger ratio of selection than all the other faiths in Northern Ireland.
as for the PSNI not being an efficent police service, do you really, really want to go back to the RUC? The PSNI have proven effective in cross border investigations and to be honest I don't see how one could see the PSNI as part of British "imperialism" since it is now welcoming Nationalist and Unionists into its rank and file. (I don't like the use of sectarian terms, as religion has nothing to do with it, and many of the Nationalist leaders were indeed Protestants)...
My point is, if we want to continue to abuse history to stop Poles joining the PSNI or any other police force infact, we won't get anywhere and this attitude will continue to plague us all for years to come.
Ask emperor Putin to supply Russins. They are experts in this business. When Soviet Union occupyed Latvia almost entire policeforce of new "soviet Latvia" was brought in from Russia because Moscow knew it could no trust Latvian people.
I'd like to offer a little background on the 728 applications from Polish passport holders to the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
The original source of some 87% of the applications was the Warsaw affiliate of a London based UK human resources consultancy which had been engaged by the Home Office in 2004 to offer support to the various police forces in the UK in increasing diversity.
The main Polish HR business they worked with was one which specialized in finding work for former members of the Polish police forces and security services and military.
Obviously people of some form of service background would be a good fit for the PNSI, or indeed any police force.
The largest component of the future Polish members of the PSNI are former members of the Zmotoryzowane Odwody Milicji Obywatelskiej (ZOMO) (Motorized Reserves of the Citizens Militia).
These were the were paramilitary riot police formations, thus making them an excellent fit for the PSNI.
These units of Milicja (Polish police) provided security during "large" events, but are most notably known for their work in quelling protests and riots during martial law in the 1980s. Again invaluable experience for the types of role they are expected to carry out in the PSNI
Originally, their main task was defined as "the protection of the nation," and their main role was as a rapid-response police force like the Garda Siochana Special Task forces of the 1980s. However over time their role evolved into riot control.
They were equipped with BTR-60 Armoured personnel carriers, tear gas and firearms as well as various types of riot equipment such as batons, plastic shields and helmets. Again their veterans make an excellent fit for the PSNI. They wore dark blue military uniforms with the same camouflage pattern as the one used by the Polish Army.
Their long white "assault batons", similar to those unofficially used by some units of the UDR, were lovingly nicknamed "Lola”.
The Secretary for State for Northern Ireland, has, according to information gained from staff of the Northern Ireland Office, been quite flexible in granting, exemptions to the age requirements for membership of the PSNI to our new Polish Police Constables.
It is hoped to have the first contingents of Polish Roman Catholic PSNI officers on the streets of the province by the beginnings of this years marching season.
Given the lamentable but real reluctance of "native Irish " Roman Catholics to join the PSNI it is seen as being politically useful to have Roman Catholics themselves dealing with the inevitable response in Roman Catholic areas to the role to be played by Mr. Adams and the Provisional Sinn Fein party in the government of Northern Ireland.
As an aside, according to information received, the original idea for encouraging the recruitment of Poles for the PSNI, after the fortuitous and accidental first few inquiries via the Home Office diversity consultants, came from a Northern Ireland Office civil servant who wrote an MA thesis on a UTV TV series called Quatermass
This was shown in the Autumn of 1979 and featured white South Africans, Afikanners, who fled after a Black uprising, being recruited to fill jobs in the London Metropolitan Police.
In the TV series they were formally called the London Metropolitan Contract Police, or informally "Pay cops".
Who says that a media studies masters is no use in a civil service job?
perhaps all you Polacks could just lie on the PigSNI applications by claiming to be staunch Prods or Chinese Mormons (apparently there is no lie-detector test, and as prospective cops they will need to be able to lie fluently anyway), then grab all the quota for 'non-catholics' and leave the 'catholic' portion free for all the True Taigs (SF + SDHELP)
this way everybody will be happy and no complaints at all ...
or maybe all this religious shit is just another example of 'divide and conquer' by the wily Britz?
Or maybe you're just an ignorant xonophobe who should be sent to a remote island in the pacific with all the rest of the bigots and racists.
I believe it would be a disaster for the integration of Polish people in Ireland if they were to join the RUC/PSNI. Currently, Polish people are welcome and thought highly of throughout Ireland, but this will change if they join this force. The RUC/PSNI have an appalling human rights record, which has been highlighted by human rights organisations in the recent past and this can't be disguised and glossed over by just changing their name.
I would strongly advise any Polish person contemplating a career in the RUC/PSNI to thoroughly research the recent past history of this force and consider all the factors, particularly, how this could alienate and impact on all Poles throughout Ireland and how they could be targeted and regarded as figures of hate as a result of their membership. There are many other careers to choose from and they would be well advised to consider more respectable careers, that would be more suited to them.
What is the background of the 728 applications from Polish passport holders to the Police Service of Northern Ireland.?
The original source of some 87% of the applications was the Warsaw affiliate of a London based UK human resources consultancy which had been engaged by the Home Office in 2004 to offer support to the various police forces in the UK in increasing diversity.
The main Polish HR business they worked with was one which specialized in finding work for former members of the Polish police forces and security services and military.
Obviously people of some form of service background would be a good fit for the PNSI, or indeed any police force.
The largest component of the future Polish members of the PSNI are former members of the Zmotoryzowane Odwody Milicji Obywatelskiej (ZOMO) (Motorized Reserves of the Citizens Militia).
These were the were paramilitary riot police formations, thus making them an excellent fit for the PSNI.
These units of Milicja (Polish police) provided security during "large" events, but are most notably known for their work in quelling protests and riots during martial law in the 1980s. Again invaluable experience for the types of role they are expected to carry out in the PSNI
Originally, their main task was defined as "the protection of the nation," and their main role was as a rapid-response police force like the Garda Siochana Special Task forces of the 1980s. However over time their role evolved into riot control.
They were equipped with BTR-60 Armoured personnel carriers, tear gas and firearms as well as various types of riot equipment such as batons, plastic shields and helmets. Again their veterans make an excellent fit for the PSNI. They wore dark blue military uniforms with the same camouflage pattern as the one used by the Polish Army.
Their long white "assault batons", similar to those unofficially used by some units of the UDR, were lovingly nicknamed "Lola”.
The Secretary for State for Northern Ireland, has, according to information gained from staff of the Northern Ireland Office, been quite flexible in granting, exemptions to the age requirements for membership of the PSNI to our new Polish Police Constables.
It is hoped to have the first contingents of Polish Roman Catholic PSNI officers on the streets of the province by the beginnings of this years marching season.
Given the lamentable but real reluctance of "native Irish " Roman Catholics to join the PSNI it is seen as being politically useful to have Roman Catholics themselves dealing with the inevitable response in Roman Catholic areas to the role to be played by Mr. Adams and the Provisional Sinn Fein party in the government of Northern Ireland.
As an aside, according to information received, the original idea for encouraging the recruitment of Poles for the PSNI, after the fortuitous and accidental first few inquiries via the Home Office diversity consultants, came from a Northern Ireland Office civil servant who wrote an MA thesis on a UTV TV series called Quatermass
This was shown in the Autumn of 1979 and featured white South Africans, Afikanners, who fled after a Black uprising, being recruited to fill jobs in the London Metropolitan Police.
In the TV series they were formally called the London Metropolitan Contract Police, or informally "Pay Cops".
Who says that a media studies masters is no use in a civil service job?
But it occurred to me last night that since the Scottish English (as in Irvin Welsh scots) for police is "poliss" & that's certainly how I've heard scottish people (apart from weegie bashtards) pronounce it - in some way a polish police force will help build linguistic and ontological bridges with the ulster scots speakers.
"poliss" "polish" get it? as I said maybe I'm wrong.
If Poles join the PSNI and end up getting hated by some members of the NI community, whatever their political or religious denomination, then it will only serve to proove the ignorance and bias of those people. The Poles had nothing to do with the past actions of the RUC so to hold them accountable for it is absurd. Face it. The PSNI are never going to disband. Now SF have signed up to policing then the chances of that happening are nil. The best we can hope for now is a gradual reform. As Poles are abstract form Irish politics, at least for now, then they will be able to approach the job without the same prejudice as we have come to expect.
I honestly think that if the Poles do join the RUC/PSNI then it might do us all some good! Fresh faces walking down the Shankhill anfd the Falls! My point is that new blood might help change the perception of the RUC/PSNI from being associated with, crazy loyalists who like to help the likes of Michael Stone escape, to a "multi-cultural" force that is detached from the politics of NI...... maby!
on account of their profile of having served in the Polish police already?
It doesn't matter how many different nationalities join the RUC/PSNI, that won't make them any more acceptable & respectable. The fact is, that by joining this military force they are endorsing all past and present human rights violations committed by this military police force in Ireland, and aiding and abetting British rule here. The are no ordinary police force, they certainly don't look it to the average neutral observer, and their behavioural traits mirrors that of the British military, indeed, they are the British military!
The RUC/PSNI's future will always be precarious, as they will have to be disbanded eventually, it will be inevitable when Ireland is politically united and a 32 county police force is established, God speed the day!
So Seaicilín F. What’s your alternative to policing? Have no police force at all? Leave law and order in the hands of the paramilitaries? How do you propose we react when someone is raped or murdered? What would you do if someone broke into your house or viciously assaulted a member of your family? Presumably nothing as by calling the PSNI you would be endorsing them?
“The fact is, that by joining this military force they are endorsing all past and present human rights violations committed”
Does that also apply to fresh faces joining Sinn Fein or the IRSP? After all human rights violations were committed by members of these parties at one stage or another. Should we hold new people accountable for the past actions of others? Does that mean I shouldn’t associate with Germans because of what happened in World War 2? Maybe I should just avoid English people altogether because their government occupies part of my country and English soldiers have murdered some of my countrymen so I should just judge the whole lot of them because of the actions of some?
“by this military police force in Ireland, and aiding and abetting British rule here”
Presumably you feel the same way about anyone from Northern Ireland who works and pays their taxes to the British government? Or people who work for the civil service? Or the electrician who does the odd job at an army barracks. Or the guy who cleans the windows at the police station? After all, in their own way they contribute to British rule.
“The RUC/PSNI's future will always be precarious, as they will have to be disbanded eventually, it will be inevitable when Ireland is politically united and a 32 county police force”
So if/when we achieve a united Ireland all the cops in the North will be sacked? Of course they won’t. They will be merged with the Garda and still do the same job under a different name/uniform. Will a name change and a change of government mean that you stop hating them overnight? Or will you just hate the Garda as they contain people who used to be members of the PSNI?
I did not state that the country should not have a police force, you're making up your own scéal! I stated clearly that I wanted to see a 32 county police force truly representative of all the Irish people. This island is not big enough for two police forces. Although, it would be fantastic if we didn't need a police force at all.
I would rather that communities in the North of this island would police themselves by nominating people in the community to deal with criminals as they see fit, until we have a united Ireland and established a 32 county police force. The RUC/PSNI have an atrocious history of human rights abuses and cannot be trusted, and they are also employed to protect the British occupation of Ireland against the wishes of the majority on this island - they should be disbanded, and stringent efforts made to unite the country politically.
I believe crime would decrease along the border area if this country had one police force for the entire island of Ireland. For example, a few years ago a friend of my was visiting her Father's grave along the border area and while she was in the cemetery people robbed her, took her money and some other possessions and took off across the border, the Gardaí were both helpless/hopeless when they stated they could not do anything, as the robbers had entered British occupied Ireland.
It makes absolute sense to have one police force and one government throughout this small island that truly represents the Irish nation and not two British established statelets with two different currencies; two different police forces and two different international soccer teams - God, we must be the joke of the world!
I agree with aspects of what Seaicilín F and Gerry say. Yes it would be nice to have one police force in 32 united counties, but to be practical this will not be happening for a very long time. Communities policing themselves doesn’t work (there again the legal system handing out mediocre sentences is hardly inspiring either). We have had communities policing themselves in the past, the result being kneecappings, punishment beatings, forced moves and those kinds of things. Those themselves are violating people’s basic human rights, even if they are aimed at criminals. We can hardly condemn the RUC/PSNI for being heavy handed in one breath and then hail paramils as protectors of the community in the next breath for doing even worse. Plus as we have seen in the past this type of justice is all too open to abuse as people use it to settle scores or for their own gain.
The PSNI are not to everybody’s liking for obvious reasons but I agree with Gerry insofar that we need a police force in the North and we can not hold the new recruits, especially the Poles, accountable for the past actions of those police who abused their position of power and who rode shot-gun over the Nationalist community.
As Seaicilín said, the Gardaí can not come over the border and sort out crime in the North. As I have already stated community policing does not work as it is open to abuse and it lacks the ability and facilities to properly punish crimes. I agree that accepting Poles into the PSNI is a good idea. The Polish community deserves to have proper representation. Plus they do work and pay their way in society so they deserve to benefit from it, especially when you see the amount of hate crime directed at them by racists and thugs.
Seaicilín. You skirted around my questions but didn't answer them.
At least satisfy my curiosity on one issue.
If someone committed a crime against you north of the border, what would you do?
idesire of poliss reduce dislike of poliss increasei
__________ n^K ___________________
ipoliss there when you want 'em i identification of poliss.i
& that only covers poliss on normal polissy things. But there. ( up there ) poliss do lots of public order polissy stuff too. Who will dislike the poliss more & identify poliss as polish?
K stands for kathurlick, that should have been obvious - you don't have to be wittgenstein. Even though he lived here. had a good life.
will polish poliss be easier to recognise?
Gerry,
In the absence of a united Ireland and a 32 counties' police force, I believe strongly in communities policing themselves and supporting themselves and not depending on opposition forces such as the RUC/PSNI, which don't have those communities' best interests at heart and whose members are only there for the financial reward and to preserve Britain's hold on Ireland. Everyone knows the trouble-makers in their own community and who better to apprehend and address criminal activity than those who live in those areas. Of course, it is not ideal, I would prefer a 32 counties' police force but, in the meantime, anything is better than going to the RUC/PSNI. So there you have it, Gerry, the answer is in there somewhere. I trust that I have now answered all remaining outstanding questions to your total satisfaction.
On a final note, I hope and pray that Polish people will do the right thing (I'm sure they will, when they've researched the criminal history of the RUC), and abandon all attempts to join the PSNI. I wish the Polish people the best of luck in obtaining more suitable and respectable employment.
Slán anois!
Yes - all communities can to an extent police themselves - anarchist theorists have long debated the how and why of such community policing. All too often in the eyes of those who are outside the community such policing or stewardship is seen as vigilante behaviour - vigilante behaviour almost naturally leads to the creation of militias - resulting in polarisation & lynchings & it's not too difficult to see that in the context of the "not so wee north" you go right back whence we're supposed to have come.
I've seen these "anarchistic" theories tested allbeit for short periods of time - on the microlevel. & almost always a squatted house or a squatted social centre has a set of "house rules". Break those rules and you must leave / be ejected. A TAZ type event which can last from one weekend to week or even more - if it includes "music with repetitive beats" and "tolerance to drug use" will not see the local police called if a crime (acquisitive "of property" ) or (personal "against person") is committed. But effective use has always been made of "ostracisation".
If you look very carefully in the background of the illustration I left last night - you will see what might appear to be the crotch of a person. Of course the image is not clear enough to know for certain if there is a person in the background in only their underwear. With a bit of imagination one might think the snapshot of teeth of a grazing animal (such as a black sheep or goat) is taken from a wider context of something pushing your imagination. In my opinion the most serious crimes are not immediately visible or detectable in our communities. Also in my opinion the most repugnant criminals appear to have organised themselves more than at any extent in the past using new technologies. Historically we know that both Gardai and RUC were often inept at detection such crimes "against the person" and considering the vulnerability of the victims "against society". That is one reason why I, even if on the intellectual level leaning to anarchistic purity still believe and argue at this stage in development of society and renegotiation of state architecture - a police force of some type with investigative powers is not only desirable but needed.
if you don't get all that - here's a simple 3 word reason we need efficient police forces :-
"For The Kids".
But obviously it doesn't stop there - we need police forces which are transparent, open to inquiry, subject to independent scrutiny and most importantly of all - may not act with impunity. I have yet to know of any vigilante group or militia which properly dealed with "kiddy issues".
cliché.
But it's true. I think the most interesting comment came from Lech way up the page - he gave us background information on the kind of polish people being considered for PSNI employment. & a very interesting background they have - I'll think ye agree. Around New Year's this site had unprecedented difficulties which meant that 2 news items didn't get the coverage they'd normally. One was the bombing of the barajas airport in Madrid - the other was the debate on the PSNI and the removal of MI5 from its structures.
I think we can move the debate on whether or not it is desirable that a minority fill the "catholic" 50% of the PSNI without even pondering much (even though Redjade opened it up) what the other _non-catholic_ 50% may be to wondering what will replace the MI5 components. I've seen one deployment of a new police force up close - the "estatut" of Catalonia allowed for nationwide deployment of the "mossos d'esquadra" & accordingly many thousands of new recruits to meet the shortfall. We in "indymedia land" over in Catalonia immediately from first shift on - clocked up instances of abuse, impunity, torture etc. [The first arrest had come 24 minutes into deployment - a morrocan migrant got arrested, fined and bated for pissing on the street.] At end the "new police force" seemed just as bad as any which had been "imposed" from Spain before. Something which I expect to be the case everywhere. It took them a while to work up to fining me for "running away from them" ( a fine which I got out of as it happens). But the deployment of that national police and its mass recruitment did not see many issues other than linguistic competence addressed.
The main question for any community which has a chance to shape a new police force ought be "how do we select & recruit them" - rather than "are they kathurlick or non-kathurlick" - have they already done target practise - can they weild a baton - do they look good in kelvar & can you remember their name for a formal complaint if they hassle you. (it helps to remember a name if you can pronounce it). The parties elected to the northern assembly have a wonderful opportunity to tackle these issues - & it really ought bear results on the "free state" side of the border as well. So I'd suggest people to consider Lech's comment - & the profile of these men (& women if there be any). What were their traditional views of betterment, surveillance and so on... Did they not go through training in a society which like many others in Europe suffer an inordinate burden of secret police activity?
I learnt my lessons on "community policing" with horrible incidents which it took me a long time to get over & explain how I came to wash up like Eurotrash in the port of Barcelona. Towards the end of the 20th century and the collapse of the squatting communities in south London, the emergence of extreme violence in the free party scene, & the harrassment of RTS! heads - & the negotiation of the gun and knife amnesties & the shortlived "go soft" on soft drugs experiment : all processes I played my part in, sometimes coz I wanted to - some others times coz I had to - [like when I stitched an outlaw back together on a kitchen table after a psychopath had nearly killed him] - & lived aghast when that fight at a free party split english squatters from the italian and spanish community I lived amongst over the question of suitable punishment for the culprit. He was scottish - he had he claimed run arms for the IRA in the 70's - our community sheltered him - the english wanted him ostracised completely and left on the street to die - at 56 he was a hard drug addict & mess. He's dead now. as it happens.
I hope the people of the not so wee north - and the people of the smaller than it thinks south will actually move the whole policing debate forward now. I see more space for strategic and tactical progress in the PSNI debates & structures than for the moment in the Gardai. So first question -
How do we recruit cops? = what type of people do we really want as cops? = how do we stop the usual type attracted to being a cop (or a screw) for "bad reasons" from getting through the process? I think it should be more psychological than political.
I suggest starting with that question & Lech's info. based rather than opinion based comment.
so I'm going to ping that comment.http://indymedia.ie/article/81111?&condense_comments=fa...85178
Those boys from ZOMO are pretty nasty. There are widely hated in Poland. They are responsible for killing few striking workers in "Wujek" coal mine and crippling few others. That happened during Martial Law (1980-1981). I hate to see those f****s ruining good name of Poles in Ireland.
Doing the 50 -50 just separates people more. They should do it as the best person for the job. Whats the point if a Protestant who would be great at the job is rejected due to his religion, while a brain dead polish (not saying they are Just an example) walks up and gets the job cause he is catholic. The 50 - 50 is discriminating against Protestants.
Sinn fein, SDLP and the Catholic Church have accepted the Police Force so can we not just all apply and if we're better for the job we get it?
I suggest that the new motto for the PSNI should be- "Protestants need not apply"
Ricky, a stór, the RUC/PSNI's new motto should be 'No Orange Order Members or Unionists Need Apply'! There's nothing wrong with being a Protestant but there is a hell of a lot wrong with being a member of the Orange Order and, in my opinion, a Unionist. Slán anois!
Seaicilin, you will be pleased to know the PSNI already shuns Orangemen from its ranks but for some crazy reason has no problem with GAA members , a sporting organisation legend for its very political and Republican slant on public life. Moreover its glorification of sectarian bigots that slaughtered Protestants wholesale during the troubles of the past 100 years, in the naming of clubs after their psycho "heros".
Ricky, you're better off out of the British Military Police force anyway, it's the worst job in the world and all the money in the world will not compensate you or prepare you for the abuse that will be hurled at you on a daily/nightly basis because you represent the cold hard face of the British military occupation of the six counties of Ireland. Maybe some day you will see the light and you will abandon the sectarian Orange Order as well. Oh, in case you are wondering, I don't approve of, nor did I ever approve of the killing of any Protestant person. My biggest hate is the British military occupation of my country and the pain and suffering it has caused so many Irish people (Catholic, Protestant or whatever you're having yourself) down through the generations.
Seaicilin, if i thought the OO to be a sectarian grouping I for one would not be in it. If an organisation happens to be solely made up of one religion or the other we should not condemn it as "sectarian", otherwise we would then have to label the Jesuits,Boys Brigade,Catholic shooling system or the CLB as such.
Beside this an organisation should not be demonised just because it complains and protests whenever its meeting places are burned, its members attacked (and frequently murdered in the past) and its traditional parades attacked by violence that is all to often rewarded by the powers that be.
Can you all stop this gob shite religious talk about the proddos this, the cathars that? these so called zomo boys,pollaks,or mercs are actually there to help!Not the british liers and pagans,not themselves "just for the MONEY" but you lot of arguing history living in the past rather nice natured pure ethnic leprecaunian type geezers over there. the majority are Christian as well not Catholic,so let the Gdanskdock saints get on with it and you@ll will see the best outcome for you and us. Change is always painful,especially when you have the whole of the ruskies on your back your own police-force killing your fellow workers,and just LECH to help you,remember solidarity? be patient we were told,most of us were but still ended up one! THE small ENGLISH are Facked,the Americano amigoes faltering, wait wait wait be calm and patient someone is to piss in their own soup soon,they wont like the taste and even be poisened by it. regards,x
Marek, if you had checked the date of the previous post you would have seen that we stopped this "gobshite religious talk" on 19th September 2007 (fourteen and a half months ago).