Ógra Shinn Féin Hold 8th National Congress

by Anti Imperialist - Ógra Shinn Féin Wed Nov 08, 2006 17:01

Moderator's Note: Content replaced with link because it was copy and paste

by Confused Wed Nov 08, 2006 17:55

Sounds remarkably like Éirígí - as in Arise/Rise Up - who launched an anti imperialist campaign recently http://www.eirigi.org/campaigns/imperialistsout.htm

by Barry - 32 County Sovereignty Movement Wed Nov 08, 2006 19:11

Just a few points ( Jesus were do you even start with this stuff)

"" We believe this is an apt name for the campaign as we are calling on people to arise against Imperialism and all the by products of its destructive and divisive legacy. ""

Do you regard the British Stormont parliament , the partition of your country and the British PSNI to be byproducts of imperialism ? Are you asking people to rise up against them ? While your leadership has readily accepted them , support them and will be calling on you to join them within days ? Can you explain this to us please ? Join the PSNI and rise up against it at the same time ?

"Also the aspiration of building a Broad Anti Imperialist Front is one of our National Strategic Objectives. This aspiration has never fully been realised and the evidence of that is witnessed today in the various anti war and progressive/left groups throughout Ireland."

Will this broad anti-imperialist front you envisage include the republicans you will be arresting jailing and shooting when you join the British PSNI ? Not to mention the ones youve been abducting , beating , threatening and murdering since you lot took the queens shilling and went into Stormont as British ministers . Will Gerry Adams stand with this broad anti-imperialist front when it protests at Shannon and Hillsborough castle or he will he again label such protests by the Irish people as "immature" and join Bush and Blair for a handshake and refuse to protest at Shannon ? Will the PSNI be part of this anti-imperialist front once Sinn Fein joins it ?

" When they are rightly calling for War Planes out of Shannon and Aldergrove, when they are justifiably demanding British troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, where is the mention of occupied Ireland."

Sinn Feins position surely is that the occupation of Ireland is perfectly legitimate under the "principle of consent"/unionist veto which they support and the Stormont agreement which they support also which clearly states the occupation is not an occupation but perfectly legitimate . And that no right to Irish sovereignty exists while the British claim to sovereignty is accepted as legitimate by Sinn Fein

"We believe the failure to oppose the illegal occupation in our own country, ultimately flaws and discredits any Anti-Imperialist Campaign in the eyes of the Irish and Internationally."

If the occupation is illegal then surely Sinn Fein are behaving in an illegal manner as renegade Irish citizens by becoming fully part of that illegal occupation , as its British governemnt ministers and members of the British occupation forces , the British PSNI . Does this not discredit them in the eyes of anyone with half a brain reading this stuff .

"We believe that a true Broad Anti-Imperialist Front can only be effective and credible when they openly challenge Imperialism in all its evil manifestations, whether that be in Iraq or Ireland."

As I said , surely the British Stormont parliament and the British PSNI which Sinn Fein are joining any day now are evil manifestations of Imperialism in Ireland . When will Sinn Fein begin challenging this evil instead of propping it up ?

"Sometimes broad campaigns can be so broad that it’s hard to have a particular focus on any issue."

and sometimes theyre just a load of bollocks , like this one

"In order to avoid this, we are introducing a new focus to the campaign each month."

can you tell us what months youll be focusing on how the PSNI are an armed wing of an illegal foreign occupation of our country ? Or perhaps what month youll be calling on anti-imperialists the illegal Brtish puppet parliament

"We will campaign against racism and sectarianism at home but also highlighting how Imperialism has developed and fostered racist and sectarian division around the world in order to divide and rule."

Perhaps you could also highlight the institutionalised sectarianism inherent and implicit in the Stormont Treaty of 1998

"We will campaign for workers rights and against exploitation like in Rossport, exposing the domestic and multinational corporations who grow richer of the back of Slave Labour and Economic Imperialism."

Perhaps Sinn Fein could call for the nationalisation of our nations resources or would this get them banned from the Whitehouse ? Perhaps its immature ?

"We will campaign against the very obvious manifestations of Imperialism, their illegal occupation of Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Afghanistan, Malvinas and of course Ireland."

As I said if the occupation of Ireland is illegal will you be condemning your fellow party members and leaders for acting as puppet Ministers in an illegal puppet Parliament and joining and armed British occupation force , the PSNI ?

"We have 6 months to raise and to impact on this issue – this must be a campaign which is recognised across Ireland and the World."

No offence but given Sinn Feins position and imminent joining of the British occupation forces this will be recognised across the world as a pile of horse shit wee lad .

How do we highlight the issues?

"We mobilise in the National Anti-Imperialist Rallies, we organise protests, we join broad Anti-Imperialist groups where available and where not we form our own, we provide information to the masses through thousands of leaflets and the internet,we use stickers we write opinion pieces and letters for publications everywhere, organise public meetings, debates and social nights and of course to assert our national rights and to highlight the folly of partition, "

However unfortunately toull be joing the PSNI as well so it seems a little pointless .

"let us come back here next year, safe in the knowledge that we have returned every single Red post Box in the North back to its rightful shade of green."

Postboxes in the north were never any shade of green to begin with . The Royal mail always had red post boxes . Gaelic pre plantation Ulster had many wonderful cultural qualities but its postal service wasnt anything to write home about .

And how the hell do you seriously expect to campaign on behalf of republican prisoners when your joining the Brit bastards throwing them into jail in the first place !!!!!!!

by Crucible Thu Nov 09, 2006 21:53

While i'm sure it is well intentioned and there are genuine young activists involved with Ógra SF - surely the irony of them launching an anti imperialist campaign as their leadership prepares the membership to support an armed British police force is not lost on the more discerning activist.

by tomas Fri Nov 10, 2006 22:05

At the event, did OSF take the opportunity to criticize the current SF leadership on their stance and co-operation with the British imperalist police force and troops stationed in Ireland? Are there any articles or press releases or planned actions or planned protests in regards to SF's acceptance of this imeralist foreign force? And if you could please let us know of OSF's offical stance on the PSNI (who you seem to have protested many times and issued press releases condemning them many times on this website) as well as OSF's offical stance on SF's policy of agreeing to and supporting the same PSNI by taking an upcoming oath and requesting the youth to work for the PSNI.

thank you

by Bean Rós Sat Nov 11, 2006 00:44

I disagree strongly that the six counties is becoming demilitarised, although it is a nice dream and I wish to God it were true.

I believe the British Establishment have merely changed the uniform of their soliders and put them in suits and ties patrolling the streets instead. In my opinion, the British Establishment by setting-up their MI5 Headquarters in the North are speaking volumes about their intention to maintain a strong grip on the six counties and how little they care about the lives of the people of the North of Ireland. They have set-up their headquarters here because they know they will be attacked in London, and they can't risk another attack on London, yes better to ship them off to Ireland - it speaks volumes alright!

The MI5's hazardous headquarters should be highlighted extensively on future anti-war marches by ÓSF and other groups, as this building will inevitably be on some group's hit list and is a severe threat to the citizens of Ireland and peace and stability on the island in general.

MI5 doesn't give a shite about the people of Ireland, nor do they want peace in Ireland - what the fuck would they do for jobs if there was peace?

Well done on all the protests I have seen ye at in Dublin, even if I'm more than a little bewildered and dismayed at the road your Chieftain is taking ye all down.

Slán agus beannacht Dé libh.

by Phil Sat Nov 11, 2006 16:00

The road their Chieftain has taken them down, Bean Ros, is called 'The Stickie Path'. people are commenting on Sinn Fein's support for the Psni, let me tell you that this is only the beginning, wait until they get into Government!

by ok Sat Nov 11, 2006 17:33

walking down the street with a Mairead Farrell banner with her quote "I always believed we had a legitimate right to take up arms and defend our country and ourselves against the british occupation". how ironic! she didnt die for you muppets to be joining the PSNI and for your senoir party to destroy arms, take the crown's paycheck, join the british occupation, and condemn any armeed resistance against the imperalist british occuipying army.

shame on you!

by Former Provo Sat Nov 11, 2006 17:55

The present leadership of SF has to be the worst in the whole history of Republicanism. By allowing themselves to be humiliated, time and again by the DUP, they have demeaned everything those people on Ogra's banners have died for.
I wish that Ogra and their masters in SF would stop using their images to sell a betrayal. The Hunger Strikers died before they would betray their political ideals before the tyrant Thatcher and now the leadership of SF lie down every time Paisley issues an ultimatum, just so they can sit in a 6 County Government.

Don't forget that the PSNI / RUC were involved in the murders of Republicans and Nationalists and don't forget also that they attacked and abused the funerals of many of these dead Volunteers and Hunger Strikers. They haven't gone away you know, they've just been promoted.

by Ideological Activist - Ógra Shinn Féin Sat Nov 11, 2006 19:18

Come on, Come on. We won't be lectured by mosquito, fringe, microscopic, and completely divided and inept so called 'dissadents.'

Please ask yourselves:

1. Why are more youth joining ÓSF than all of you's combined?

2. Why is ÓSF larger and more active than all of your 'Senior' parties combined?

Also I'd like to know:

1. Why would any Republican attack an anti Imperialist campaign?????????????

2. What the fuck are you's doing on the anti Imperialist Front?

3. Are you's actually at War? Or whats the craic, doesn't seem to be much action?

So why are you'se attacking young republicans for engaging in an anti-Imperialist campaign? No wonder you don't get any youth joining, cuz not only do you not have a strategy or activity, but you are elitist arm chair generals, who harp on about 'insulting memories' etc and 'nudge nudge, wink wink' arm struggle. You'se are a laugh.

Just on one point. How are we insulting our fallen comrades memory. Nobody knows what our fallen comrades would think if they where alive today.

We believe in our strategy, we pursue our strategy with vigour, and we continue to grow and impact everyday, we believe our stratrgy is bringing about the Ireland for which our patriots died. Only time can tell if we are right, but we are safe in the knowledge that we are pursuing what we believe in.

However the inactivity of 'dissadents' on their 'strategies' is too me a bigger insult, because there sitting in their houses, with their big principled comfort blanket, throwing insults at everybody, but not bothering doing anything constructive or anything too daring, challenging or that would involve abit of grafting.

Your insults make me sick, no wonder young republicans disregard you'se as balloons!

Victory to The Provos!

by Phil Sat Nov 11, 2006 20:03

So everybody who criticises Sinn Fein are Dissidents, typical rant from the party formerly known as Republicans. I don't and never will support any so called Dissident Republicans because I see their continuance of the war as a complete waste of time and lives. However I won't be lectured by any Johnny-come-lately mini Chuckie who seems to think that pursuing the same route taken by the Sticks and the SDLP 30 years ago will achieve a Republic.

Of course no one knows what route those who died would have taken as we have seen former IRA Volunteers fall in behind the Adams/ McGuinness leadership just as many fell in behind the Free State leadership and the leadership of De Valera. These people have because of the sufferance of others secured for themselves jobs funded by the Brits or have become Politicians paid to continue their hold over the 6 northern counties. However how many former Blanketmen are still involved in Sinn Fein very few if you look around you. The latest to catch themselves on were Bernard Fox and Oliver Hughes.

Play your wee ' we have more support than you ' games' if you want, the SDLP used that one years ago and look where it got them.

The DUP have Sinn Fein on their knees and believe you me they won't let them up.

by Philism - Against Everything Party Sat Nov 11, 2006 20:23

You obviously no what your against Phil? Thats easy.

What are you for?

Victory to The Provos!

by Phil Sat Nov 11, 2006 20:50

I am for the the achievement of everything countless generations of Republicans have fought and died for, the establishment of a 32 county socialist Republic. Something which Sinn Fein will never achieve under the leadership of Adams and McGuinness, especially with such a subservient membership nodding approval at every disgraceful decision they make.

If Sinn Fein can't get into a Paisley led Government without continuous humiliation at every turn, then how in the name of those who have died are they going to achieve even a united Ireland?

Wake up to reality, when Sinn Fein gets into Government they will forget about any Political ideals they still retain and will become as corrupt as those who went before.

Victory my arse!

by Not a Dissident Sat Nov 11, 2006 21:25

To the Ideological Activist

While appreciating that at times it may be frustrating to have to take criticism of your actions - reverting to calling people names isn't exactly the mark of an activist driven by ideology. If you want to make comparisons by size as in we're bigger than any other group who call themselves republican therefore we're better. Hate to remind you but Fianna Fáil consider themselves republican and they are considerably bigger than SF. You have lumped anyone who has any criticism of the SF strategy together as dissidents. Again can you not engage in debate without putting labels on people. You say you are pursuing what you believe in - thats sound i'm sure those who are involved with other groups are pursuing what they believe in. Posting photos of women with guns and shouting up the provos aint gonna win the republic either. Might i remind you that it wasnt that long ago that SF was on the other end of criticism about being a 2% party with no support/no mandate blah blah. Maybe you should remember that before denouncing others who do not command massive levels of support. Best of luck with the campaign. I take you will be open to working with other groups?

by The Laughing Policeman Sat Nov 11, 2006 21:30

There you have it, $inn Fein PSNI.

by Barry - 32 csm Sat Nov 11, 2006 23:46

"1. Why are more youth joining ÓSF than all of you's combined?"

Because their mammies and daddies let them now its all nice and respectable Why are more adult cummans currently resigning from your party than any other in Ireland is a question worth considering these days .

2." Why is ÓSF larger and more active than all of your 'Senior' parties combined?"

Presumably because you dont get interned for joining OSF , as Ive pointed out peoples mammies and daddies let them these days And active on what exactly ? The illegal occupation of Ireland ? Is it your position that the British occupation is illegal ?

""1. Why would any Republican attack an anti Imperialist campaign????????????? ""

Very good question . Why also would they beat , abduct , threaten and murder members of an anti imperialist campaign and even call on them to be brought to justice by the British for attacking the British .

"2. What the fuck are you's doing on the anti Imperialist Front?"

Challenging British rule rather than trying to cement it in Ireland as legal , lawful and legitimate as Provisional Sinn Fein have been doing since 1998.

"3. Are you's actually at War? Or whats the craic, doesn't seem to be much action?"

Last night there was a gun and bomb attack on the PSNI in South Armagh and a landmine discovered in Fermanagh . Hopefully action will markedly increase once you people join the British forces . Republicans certainly wont have to travel far to find a peeler .

"So why are you'se attacking young republicans for engaging in an anti-Imperialist campaign? No wonder you don't get any youth joining, cuz not only do you not have a strategy or activity, but you are elitist arm chair generals, who harp on about 'insulting memories' etc and 'nudge nudge, wink wink' arm struggle. You'se are a laugh."

32 csm does have a straegy . Its strategy document was submitted to your leadership . They seem unable to respond to the points put to them . Feel free to have a bash yourself on their behalf as you claim to have a thorough grasp of what the provo strategy actually is , unlike any other provo ive spoken too over the last 9 years .

"Just on one point. How are we insulting our fallen comrades memory. Nobody knows what our fallen comrades would think if they where alive today. "

Joining the same British forces that killed our fallen comrades strikes me as a bit of an insult , call me contrary . I dont believe they gave their lives so people could join the RUC

"We believe in our strategy, we pursue our strategy with vigour, and we continue to grow and impact everyday, we believe our stratrgy is bringing about the Ireland for which our patriots died. "

Could you please explain this strategy to me . Ive been asking precisely what it is since 1997 and I either get a shrug of someones shoulders , a " Haarruummppphhhh !!" or a death threat whenever I enquire - what exactly is the strategy ?

"Only time can tell if we are right, but we are safe in the knowledge that we are pursuing what we believe in. "

No , it doesnt take time t tell if joining the British crown forces and doing their dirty work in Ireland is right or wrong . Its completely wrong ,just like child molesting and drug dealing are completely wrong . If you join the PSNI you are a dirty Brit collaborator in a dirty Brit uniform with a dirty British gun in your hand and you are wrong . A stinking rotten collaborator and traitor to your country whether your from Tyrone or Tipperary .

"However the inactivity of 'dissadents' on their 'strategies' is too me a bigger insult, because there sitting in their houses, with their big principled comfort blanket, throwing insults at everybody, but not bothering doing anything constructive or anything too daring, challenging or that would involve abit of grafting."

Quite a few are actually sitting in jail with absolutely no evidence against them except for their political beliefs . Very soon PSF will be physically jailing them for the British , as part of the illegal British apparatus in Ireland

"Victory to The Provos! "

the world can see the totality of your complete and utter defeat . Please cop yourself on young man .

by tomas Sun Nov 12, 2006 01:45

OSF- if someone can actually discuss or debate rather than just name calling and dodging the several points brought up in this comment section.............may i ask once again if you could please let us know of OSF's offical stance on the PSNI (who you seem to have protested many times and issued press releases condemning them many times on this website) as well as OSF's offical stance on SF's policy of agreeing to and supporting the same PSNI by taking an upcoming oath and requesting the youth to work for the PSNI.

thank you

by tomas Sun Nov 12, 2006 01:57

"Republicans are prepared to work an executive. We are really prepared to administer British rule in Ireland for the foreseeable future. The very principle of partition is accepted, and if the Unionists had had that in the 1920s they would have been laughing."
- Francie Molloy, Provisional Sinn Fein, March 28 1999 (London Sunday Times)

"There can be no such things as an Irish nationalist accepting the loyalist veto and partition. You cannot claim to be an Irish nationalist if you consent to an internal six county settlement and if you are willing to negotiate the state of Irish society with a foreign government."
- Gerry Adams, November 22 1984 (AP/RN)

"British rule depends upon repression and collaboration and the Irish people should recognise that those who collaborate with Britain in exchange for a slice of the cake will implement British policy and remain silent when Irish people are murdered and oppressed. It is they who are responsible for prolonging the war in Ireland. Without the quislings, without the collaborators, we would already have reached freedom."
- Martin McGuinness, Bodenstown, June 26 1986 (AP/RN)

"Armed struggle is a necessary and morally correct form of resistance in the six counties against a government whose presence is rejected by the vast majority of the Irish people".
"There is those who tells us that the British Government will not be removed by armed struggle. As has been said before, the history of Ireland and of British colonial involvement throughout the world tells us that they will not be moved by anything else".
- Gerry Adams, 1986 (1986 Ard Fheis, AP/RN)

by beidh_ár_lá_linn Sun Nov 12, 2006 13:53

A number of points to contend with:

1. Do you regard the British Stormont parliament , the partition of your country and the British PSNI to be byproducts of imperialism ? Are you asking people to rise up against them ? While your leadership has readily accepted them , support them and will be calling on you to join them within days ? Can you explain this to us please ? Join the PSNI and rise up against it at the same time ?

Absolutely, which is why when we, as Irish republicans, join the assembly (which you'll note is populated entirely by Irish people) we'll use it to enforce all-island co-operation on health, education, economy, energy, agriculture, everything we have control over. Granted, that control, which should rightfully be ours, is illegally 'imparted' to us by the Brits, however, I'm sure Barry will agree that being able to make decisions about our future is better than not being able to do so?

Barry will also note that, in fact, SF have not supported the PSNI and if it chooses to do so, control over the PSNI will be held by Irish people. He will also note that Pádraig, the PSNI officer, who votes SF, plays GAA and drinks in your local pub is much less likely to persecute republicans who do not agree with the present SF strategy than a Trevor.

The logic behind joining the PSNI (and, in fact, behind biting our collective tongue and joining any partitionist assembly) is about removing the Brits ability to use them as a tool to oppress us. It's called pragmatism, a chara. We've established we can't bomb the fuckers out; let's take control and vote them out.

2. Sinn Feins position surely is that the occupation of Ireland is perfectly legitimate under the "principle of consent"/unionist veto which they support and the Stormont agreement which they support also which clearly states the occupation is not an occupation but perfectly legitimate . And that no right to Irish sovereignty exists while the British claim to sovereignty is accepted as legitimate by Sinn Fein

No, SF's position is that we have exhausted the military road of resistance and that politics is the best way forward, for the time being. Politics and negotiations with your enemies involves compromise, a chara. We could bomb and shoot the Brits for another 800 years and it wouldn't shift them. If we believe that we'll achieve a united Ireland quicker by using the GFA then we are obligated to use it. Simple as.

3. If the occupation is illegal then surely Sinn Fein are behaving in an illegal manner as renegade Irish citizens by becoming fully part of that illegal occupation , as its British governemnt ministers and members of the British occupation forces , the British PSNI . Does this not discredit them in the eyes of anyone with half a brain reading this stuff

If we use the occupier's own laws to gain our independence, we have defeated the occupier.

4. As I said , surely the British Stormont parliament and the British PSNI which Sinn Fein are joining any day now are evil manifestations of Imperialism in Ireland . When will Sinn Fein begin challenging this evil instead of propping it up ?

Absolutely, Stormont is an evil manifestation of imperialism. As is the PSNI. But when we turn it to our own needs and wishes, it becomes a tool we can use to expel the occupier. When we implement community based policing with the PSNI, the community benefits and flourishes. When we implement an all-island health programme, Irish people living in border areas benefit. When we make it so that a farmer in Ballymoney or Comber finds it easier to trade with a farmer in Cork than in Cornwall, we're making the Brits irrelevant to what happens here.

Granted, we cannot control everything; we cannot nationalise industries, we cannot dictate national economic policies, however when the British leave as a result of a referendum held under their own law, we can then make a start on converting the country to socialism. Without the GFA and SF participation in Stormont, we have control over precisely nothing. We cannot control our own destinies when we stand outside and allow our enemies to shoot us with their police and wreck our country with their parliament.

5. can you tell us what months youll be focusing on how the PSNI are an armed wing of an illegal foreign occupation of our country ? Or perhaps what month youll be calling on anti-imperialists the illegal Brtish puppet parliament

Barry seems to display selective blindness.

Nov-Dec: Local launches of campaign/Prisoners/Political Policing
Jan: Rossport/Shell to Sea
Feb: Racism/Sectarianism
March: Imperialism in Ireland –(Raytheon, Shorts, Demil, Shannon, Green Post Box etc)
April: International Imperialism – (Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Lebanon etc)
May: Workers Rights (May Day) Exploitation
June: Equality - Feminism

In November and December, the focus will partly be on the fact that the PSNI is used as a tool to oppress republicans, whether they be republicans who agree with SF or otherwise. In March, the focus will be on imperialism in Ireland, which will, no doubt, include the PSNI and the Stormont assembly.

What Barry should understand is that while we sit in Stormont, we are not kow-towing, we are gritting our teeth. We're attempting to implement republican policies and just because we believe that it is the best vehicle available to us at the minute does not mean we cannot criticise it.

6. Perhaps you could also highlight the institutionalised sectarianism inherent and implicit in the Stormont Treaty of 1998

Unfortunately, Barry is right and I believe we could do more to highlight this fact.

7. Perhaps Sinn Fein could call for the nationalisation of our nations resources or would this get them banned from the Whitehouse ? Perhaps its immature ?

Again, Barry is right. We should call for the nationalisation of all our nations resources. In fact, we have!

http://ograshinnfein.blogspot.com/

"Irish resources must be kept in the hands of the Irish people!"

8. As I said if the occupation of Ireland is illegal will you be condemning your fellow party members and leaders for acting as puppet Ministers in an illegal puppet Parliament and joining and armed British occupation force , the PSNI ?

Once more, Barry misses the point. We are not joining Stormont to enforce British rule but to turn it to our advantage while it remains here. If we join the PSNI, it will be in order to prevent it being used a political tool to oppress us. Surely Barry agrees that some sort of community policing solution is needed?

9. However unfortunately you’ll be joining the PSNI as well so it seems a little pointless.

Unfortunately, Barry presents no alternative to the current strategy. He later tells us the strategy document was submitted to the SF leadership. Divulge, Barry.

by Phil Sun Nov 12, 2006 19:30

What a load of nonsense! We've heard all this garbage from the SDLP for the previous 30 years. Not only have Sinn Fein gone down the route taken by the SDLP but they are excusing it by using the SDLP's terminology.

The fact is that the DUP are forcing Sinn Fein into humiliating U-turn after U-turn in order to be accepted into a Paisley led Government and if any member of Sinn Fein or Ogra believes that they will simply sit back and allow Sinn Fein to establish cross border co-operation then they must also believe in the tooth fairy. The DUP will simply veto any such moves and any time Sinn Fein steps out of line they will simply throw them out of Stormont as they've done numerous times.

Come on! We've all seen the humiliation on the faces of the Sinn Fein delegation after Saint Andrews when they realised they would have to support the PSNI / RUC.

by Phil Sun Nov 12, 2006 20:03

As for converting this country to Socialism;

Only the most deluded of Sinn Feiners would still believe that we would ever be able to convert this country to Socialism. For this to happen Sinn Fein would have to have complete control of both parts of this island and that will never happen. Even if it did Gerry's friends in the White house as well as his right wing millionaire buddys and financial backers would never tolerate it for a second. You only have to look at Cuba. Do you honestly believe that even the most die hard Shinner would opt for their life style never mind the ordinary men and women on the street?

A 32 County Socialist Republic is only a fairy story told by old Chuckies to a gullible youth.

by Barry - 32 csm Sun Nov 12, 2006 21:13

Firstly Id like to thank the poster for taking the time to respond , however the response is lacking completely in substance and does not remotely answer the questions put . The response is unfortunately pure spin and not based in any way upon political fact or clarity . It does not in any way shape or form even begin to explain the current impenetrable "strategy" being persued by the SF leadership . At best it could be described as a hopeful dream , but it does not explain a single thing which is relevant to the struggle for Irish freedom . Not in any way , shape or form . Its merely a repetition of leadership spin which does not for one second stand up to any form of political scrutiny .

Firstly this doesnt make any sense whatsoever , its pure Rumsfeldese .

" when we, as Irish republicans, join the assembly (which you'll note is populated entirely by Irish people) we'll use it to enforce all-island co-operation on health, education, economy, energy, agriculture, everything we have control over.Granted, that control, which should rightfully be ours, is illegally 'imparted' to us by the Brits, however, I'm sure Barry will agree that being able to make decisions about our future is better than not being able to do so?"

Firstly you are saying youll use your control , and in the next breath admitting your not in control !! If Britain is "imparting" its control to you its they who are in control . This is basic stuff .Cross border co-operation furthermore is absolutely nothing to do with getting rid of an illegal border , simply making it less awkward ,obnoxious and more efficient and workable . Therefore easier to live with . Nor are you making decisions about your future , your implementing British decisions and British rule about the Irish peoples future . Westminster makes the decisions just in case youve forgotten Crown Minister Bairbre De Brun closing all those hospitals . Also the fact Stormont is populated by Irish people is totally irrelevant . It has been populated by Irish people from the very day it was built . The statue to the Dublin man outside it sort of points that out too . Its still Irish people acting under British control in an illegal puppet British parliament , just as it always was .

" "" Barry will also note that, in fact, SF have not supported the PSNI and if it chooses to do so, control over the PSNI will be held by Irish people. " "

The sinn fein leadership have already done so , you are being utterly dishonest . Support for the British police was integral to the now defunct GFA .Its been underlined once more in the new St Andrews agreement which has superceded the GFA . The SF leadership have signed up to that too . They support the PSNI . Its just they have a difficulty getting some malcontents over the last hurdle now its finally dawned on them what accepting British rule really means . Control over the PSNI will rest with the British parliament and MI5 . Catch yourself on .

"He will also note that Pádraig, the PSNI officer, who votes SF, plays GAA and drinks in your local pub is much less likely to persecute republicans who do not agree with the present SF strategy than a Trevor."

.. Padraig will be much worse in his persecution of republicans than Trevor ever was . . The history of Irishmen doing Britains dirty work is littered with foul renegade examples like Padraig . Padraig will quite simply have to get them before they get him . Padraig will never be served a cup of water in my local pub , and drinking there would make his GAA career a short lived affair . Padraig as a good PSNI officer will be enforcing the licensing laws and outside on the road trying to catch unregistered taxi drivers , people with no MOT and drunks . ANd hassling republicans on their way home .

"" The logic behind joining the PSNI (and, in fact, behind biting our collective tongue and joining any partitionist assembly) is about removing the Brits ability to use them as a tool to oppress us. It's called pragmatism, a chara. We've established we can't bomb the fuckers out; let's take control and vote them out. ""

What planet are you on . Britain engages in oppression simply as a tactic , not for badness . Britain does not hate Irish people , it merely wants to control the island . Britain does not need to engage in co-ercion now it has so many co-operative little Irishmen willing to play ball . And of course it will be their job in the PSNI to take care of any unco-operative Irishmen who dont . And of course it wont be British oppression because its Sinn Fein voting Padraig hauling republicans off to jail ( run by Irish people too I suppose) . And you wont be in control , youve already aceded to that slightly crucial point .

" ""No, SF's position is that we have exhausted the military road of resistance and that politics is the best way forward, for the time being.""

No , im afraid that your just throwing spin again here with no political substance to what you are saying . Youve signed up to the Mitchell principles , the GFA and now the St Andrews agreement all of which unambiguously state that British rule in Ireland is perfectly legitimate , and conceivaby legitimately permanent also . Thats why articles 2&3 had to be got rid off , they were illegitimate . Thats why republican prisoners are now criminalised , they are illegitimate . That has nothing to do with a failed military campaign . Im engaged in politics . The politics of the betrayal of ones national sovereignty are another matter entirely .

"Politics and negotiations with your enemies involves compromise, a chara. "

This is more spin and cliche , which makes absolutely no political sense whatsoever . Its just a slogan .You do not compromise on your nations sovereignty and accept the right of foreigners to rule you , ever. Thats not just defeat its collaboration and treason against your very own nation . One compromises over economic policies , trade etc but NOT sovereignty . Not ever . You may not have noticed that Britain refused to permit its sovereignty over the Irish nation to be negotiated at all . It was completely non negotiable from the outset . Yet its Britains illegal claim to soverignty which is what the armed conflict for 800 years has been all about .

" We could bomb and shoot the Brits for another 800 years and it wouldn't shift them. If we believe that we'll achieve a united Ireland quicker by using the GFA then we are obligated to use it. Simple as."

You were obligated to use the GFA simply because you were stupid enough to obligate yourselves . And now its been made completely redundant by yet another British treaty . You have still not explained how using the GFA would get a united Ireland , not that it matters now that its no longer in existance and theres a new British treaty .

" If we use the occupier's own laws to gain our independence, we have defeated the occupier."

this is yet another meaningless slogan Im afraid . You havent defeated the occupier nor have you explained how using its laws will defeat it now you have agreed to be subject to the occupiers laws and even enforce them by arms in the PSNI . The occupiers laws state very clearly that British rule in Ireland is legitimate and resistance to it illegitimate . You are now obligated to enforce those illegal laws .

" Absolutely, Stormont is an evil manifestation of imperialism. As is the PSNI. "

Agreed , but youve accepted under Mitchell , the old GFA nad now St Andrews that both evils are pefectly legitimate ( why do you call them evil therefore ?) and any Irish insurgent who opposes them as a criminal , acting in an illegitimate manner .

" But when we turn it to our own needs and wishes, it becomes a tool we can use to expel the occupier. When we implement community based policing with the PSNI, the community benefits and flourishes. When we implement an all-island health programme, Irish people living in border areas benefit. When we make it so that a farmer in Ballymoney or Comber finds it easier to trade with a farmer in Cork than in Cornwall, we're making the Brits irrelevant to what happens here."

No no no , this is just more Rumsfeldese . Who in the name of God is teaching you this stuff . Thats just another slogan that doesnt actually mean anything . The only policing you will implement with the PSNI is illegal British policing in Ireland . Your job will be to arrest , jail and shoot anyone behaving in an illegal manner according to British laws . Public enemy number one will be Irish republican insurgents , as always . Republicans have the right to defend their nation from British armed forces and assert its sovereignty . And farmers trade with supermarkets , not other farmers 300 miles away . Cross border subsidies tariffs etc are EU policy and not Stormonts too by the way .

" Granted, we cannot control everything;"

you dont control anything , you implement British law and policy in Ireland while upholding British parliamentary institutions .

"however when the British leave as a result of a referendum held under their own law, we can then make a start on converting the country to socialism. "

It might be an idea to make a start before that because neither you nor anyone else has explained when this amazing referendum is going to happen or what the outcome of it will be or why . You seem to be of an opinion that Britain will hold a referendum that could put its control of the country in jeopardy .

" Without the GFA and SF participation in Stormont, we have control over precisely nothing."

The GFA is gone , you still have control over nothing and never did . You merely had the privilege of implementing British policy , hospital closures and job cuts . Britain is in control . It collapsed its puppet assembly without a second thought when it felt like it and there wasnt a damnthing you could do about it except plead for them to bring it back for about 6 years.

" We cannot control our own destinies when we stand outside and allow our enemies to shoot us with their police and wreck our country with their parliament."
Britain controls our destinies and the puppet Parliament which is its method of controlling our destinies . If another country has soverignty over your country then they control your destiny . Thats why anyone who recognises another countrys soverignty over their own is regarded as a traitor all over the world and is either jailed or executed by even the most liberal of regimes . Free People certainly tend to despise them for generations afterwards

"
In November and December, the focus will partly be on the fact that the PSNI is used as a tool to oppress republicans, whether they be republicans who agree with SF or otherwise. In March, the focus will be on imperialism in Ireland, which will, no doubt, include the PSNI and the Stormont assembly. "

Lets get this straight , youve been defending them as positive things for republicans throughout this entire post and as a surefire means to acheiving national soverignty but in November and December youll be denouncing them as evil ? Slightly dishonest dont you think ? Either that or you are a dangerously confused young man .

"What Barry should understand is that while we sit in Stormont, we are not kow-towing, we are gritting our teeth. We're attempting to implement republican policies and just because we believe that it is the best vehicle available to us at the minute does not mean we cannot criticise it."

Rubbish , they loved every minute of it , short lived affair that it was. And they were and will be implementing British policies in Ireland , albeit with a few constitutional nationalist concessions . After all a good master throws a dog a bone . The only republican policies that matter a shit are ones which uphold Irish soverignty and challenge Britains illegal claim to sovereignty . Sinn Fein doesnt have any . Voting SDLP would make absolutely no difference , except they thought up the entire strategy first .

"" We are not joining Stormont to enforce British rule but to turn it to our advantage while it remains here.""

I didnt ask you why you will be enforcing British rule , I asked you how you intended to get rid of British rule in Ireland . What is the strategy ? You still havent answered .

" If we join the PSNI, it will be in order to prevent it being used a political tool to oppress us. Surely Barry agrees that some sort of community policing solution is needed? "

Why on earth do you believe that Britain would want to oppress you ? Do you think it needs to , what earthly reason is there to do so ? You seriously are trying to tell us you have outmanouvred the British by joining the PSNI ? When Britain demanded you join it in the first place ? That Britain wants to oppress us all but Sinn Fein have wrongfooted them by joining the cops - thats what you appear to be saying . When I said you dont make any sense it wasnt an insult . These are the ill thought out slogans and spin Im refferring to . This is completely inane .

"Unfortunately, Barry presents no alternative to the current strategy. He later tells us the strategy document was submitted to the SF leadership. Divulge, Barry."

Firstly you have not spelt out any strategy , youve come out with a load of meaningless slogans none of which stand up to any intellectual or political scrutiny . They are completely meaningless as in they dont actually mean anything . You have learned some slogans off by heart , that is all . You dont seem able to explain what the slogans mean . When is this referendum you think Britain is going to permit ? How do you know it will lead to a united Ireland ? I thought there had to be 2 referenda in north and the south but there seems to be some confusion on that point . And Britain has just thrown the GFA in the dustbin the other week and come up with a new treaty more favourable to Mr Paisley ?. What makes you think Britain is ever going to give up its claim to sovereignty in Ireland ? You dont seem able to explain ?

The strategy document was given to your leadership early this year , Marion and Francie posed for a nice picture outside Sinn Fein HQ the day they delivered it and the picture was on the front page of the sovereign nation . Hardly a secret but unfortuntely theres a bit of a media black out .

http://www.32csm.org/pow.html

As they seem unable to answer the questions put perhaps you could have a bash ?

by Kerry O Riordan - Louth Mon Nov 13, 2006 01:28

Ógra are a very vibrant group of obviously very committed young republicans, I think the news of the congress is a sign of continued success.

Keep up the good work Ógra.

Keep er lit!

by ok Mon Nov 13, 2006 02:18

do "committed young republicans" join the RUC/PSNI???????

by Ballyseedy Mon Nov 13, 2006 20:31

Im stung by the cmplete naievete displayed in this comment

" Barry will also note that, in fact, SF have not supported the PSNI and if it chooses to do so, control over the PSNI will be held by Irish people. He will also note that Pádraig, the PSNI officer, who votes SF, plays GAA and drinks in your local pub is much less likely to persecute republicans who do not agree with the present SF strategy than a Trevor. "

Im confident that here in the south theres many a Garda branchman having a pint in his local GAA club whod have a chuckle reading that statement . And Im sure theres many a republican victim of the special branch , Broy Harriers and Free state army whod roll in his grave upon hearing it . The death toll in the Irish civil war surpassed the death toll of the troubles in the north , and took just over a year to claim its victims as opposed to the 30 in the north . The Stormont authorities only executed a single IRA volunteer , Tom Williams , from 1922 to 1972 when Stormont fell . Free state sinn fein and Fianna Fail executed about 90 officially between them , not to mention the numerous extra judicial executions on the streets , lanes and ditches in the dead of night . And the most notorious killers were former IRA men .
The leaders of the gang which butchered men in Ballyseedy and elsewhere in Kerry were members of Collins execution squad sent from Dublin to pacify the dissident republicans of Kerry .
De Valeras Broy Harriers , created by "republican policeman" Ned Broy were basically truce time IRA men who flooded the ranks of the IRA when Dev came to power and it was thought popular and safe to do so . They were recruited by the state ostensibly to defend it from the blushirts but were let loose against republicans instead . They used to cruise the streets of Dublin in patrol cars armed with Thompson machine guns , imitating the gangster films which were popular at the time , and had a free rein to open fire on any IRA man they saw on the street .
The record of the southern special branch over the decades and still today in their persecution of republican activists needs no illustration . Many of these people like their forbears have Irish names and support Gaelic games . They have no difficulty persecuting republicans simply because its their job to do so . When you join the PSNI thats going to be your job too . Have a bit of sense young man .