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Dear friends As I have previously announced, we are now “freezing” the blog.  We are also making archives of the blog available for free download in various formats (see below). 

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by Mr. Allen for the Saker blog Over the last few years, we hear leaders from both Russia and China pronouncing that they have formed a relationship where there are

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Public Inquiry
Interested in maladministration. Estd. 2005

offsite link RTEs Sarah McInerney ? Fianna Fail supporter? Anthony

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Human Rights in Ireland
Indymedia Ireland is a volunteer-run non-commercial open publishing website for local and international news, opinion & analysis, press releases and events. Its main objective is to enable the public to participate in reporting and analysis of the news and other important events and aspects of our daily lives and thereby give a voice to people.

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Lockdown Skeptics

The Daily Sceptic

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Biden's sudden exit and the canonisation of his hopeless VP is a dismal chapter in American politics ? one that will further erode trust in the democratic process, says Tony Morrison.
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The Government is using the excuse of 'climate change' to justify the largest taxpayer 'investment' in wind and solar farms in British history.
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What happened in Britain during the years 2018-24 wasn?t the philosophical defeat of 'Toryism'. It was a Battle Royal with the Blob that the British Right fought and lost, decisively, says J. Sorel.
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In Episode 8 of the Sceptic, Laurie Wastell talks to David Livermore on doubts about Lucy Letby's guilt, Angus Dalgleish on the Covid Inquiry's criticism of lockdown and Steven Tucker on immigration and Michel Houellebecq.
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A summary of the most interesting stories in the past 24 hours that challenge the prevailing orthodoxy about the ?climate emergency?, public health ?crises? and the supposed moral defects of Western civilisation.
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Can't we all be friends, should the Immigration issue split Irish opposition groups?

category national | racism & migration related issues | opinion/analysis author Monday October 09, 2006 10:11author by Brian Report this post to the editors

I attempt to identify two distinct streams in the emerging Irish opposition groups, then I discuss some topics that seem to divide them, and finally I explore the issue of Immigration, which unfortunately has the potential to divide these groups for years to come.

It seems to this observer that the various opposition groups now coming to the fore in Ireland can be grouped into say two basic areas. The first group are the environment protest groups, like say Rossport and Tara etc, allied to the anti-war groups focused on Shannon, plus those that are trying to stand up for Justice in policing and legal matters, as seen on www.rateyoursolicitor.com and in the Wheelock campaign for example. Luckily a lot of hard work has been put in by many indymedia contributors in this area, who have succeeded in getting some much needed publicity for these campaigns. Then a somewhat quieter group on indymedia are the other stream which I would classify as Irish nationalist and Catholic groups that are anxious to take back this country from what this group would see as a corrupt, and maybe outside influenced, elite. The latter campaign is modelled on old fashioned Irish nationalist grounds, with a great pride and interest in Irish, and especially Catholic Irish, history. You can see this kind of growing movement (albeit small now though) in places like Link to fascist site removed by editor in line with our 'No Platform' policy, http://irish-nationalism.net/forum/ , and the new 'The Hibernian' magazine. I know I am simplifying all this but hopefully you can see the two pretty distinct groups of activists that I am talking about. And yes both these groups are, mostly, outside the ranks of all Irish political parties, with very little love lost on any of those parties or politicians!

Despite the differences noted I think more unites than divides these emerging opposition groups, with both groups stalking the Celtic tiger as a dragon to be slayed rather than as some trophy to be honoured! Ireland is a small country with obviously not that many interested in any kind of politics. So that for those opposition groups, who are out of sympathy with the big political parties and media organs, to be so much divided among themselves seems like a disaster for anybody hoping to improve matters in Ireland. What I mean basically is that there is obviously strength in numbers. So clearly the more people that can unite against corruption etc then the better it will be for everyone, and then issues like Rossport could attain that critical mass where the people could get justice, and democratic accountability, for those in Mayo and so many other places around Ireland. Such is the hope anyhow, so I thought I would look at some of the issues that do divide these opposition groups to see if there is any common ground, and to see how real and serious these divisions are. I will also point out some of the divisions in US groups which I think have much the same dynamic.

A) Economic Matters. Obviously most people would put the various groups under a kind of left/right analysis that I think anyway is more appropriate for 19th or 20th groups than it would be for modern Ireland now. I just think that most people are bored witless at all the theory and ancient theological debates that permeate this field.! Most people it seems to me anyway are disillusioned with the way the Irish economy in practise works right now and I think would be happy to see some measures taken to ease the big disparities in income and other reforms without worrying about which left/right bracket such reforms could be classed as. So for example I think there would be a consensus that a majority of people are suspicious of the supposed benefits of privatising (under the current model of privatisation anyway) the Irish health or transport systems etc. At the same time if you were to ask most supposedly 'right wing' activists about the Irish housing crisis I don't think they would propose a solution which just meant subjecting people to the same 'market forces' that currently dominate that market. In fact as regards market forces there is this interesting quote from Liam Sweeney in 'The Hibernian' which shows I think that those who are accused of being 'right wing' are often in fact cognisant of the many problems that the current economic model has thrown up:

"And what of "market forces", that hallowed god to whom we are all told we must bow and obey? It is a god that is about as real as Peter Pan. In reality, it is just another term for that cabal which corners products and markets, manipulates supply and demand, decides and promotes "fashions" and yet all the while remains hidden. It uses the media to convince the public that there is no alternative. If people are poor, it is because of "market forces"; if people are living in slums or urban hellholes, it is because of "market forces"; if the mass of people are poor and getting poorer, in real terms, it is because of "market forces"; if our young people are not getting the educational and financial investment that they need and merit, it is because of "market forces"; if our old and sick are leading an existence, not a life, it is because of "market forces". And do we need to add that if these rich, manipulative and amoral folks are at the top of the pile, it is because of "market forces"?"(1)

Remember this is written in a journal that some would say are on the 'right wing' divide in Irish opposition groups. Hence I think its obvious that these differences are pretty over blown and that apart from some class war 'theologians' quoting Marx and whoever ad nauseam (lol) most people tend to agree in fact on these issues. I'm not trying to offend some peoples strongly held views but I am convinced that you could cobble together an agreed position on most economic matters.

B) Religion. Clearly this is a divide of some degree between these two groups. As pointed out the 'Hibernian' position is to be unashamedly proud of Ireland's Christian, mainly Catholic, heritage while the other side plays down religion and is even sometimes openly hostile to nearly all 'organised' religions. This type of divide is seen in the US as well where those opposition groups which would look to say Alex Jones (www.prisonplanet.com) as their standard bearer tend to relate to issues sometimes as a kind of spiritual warfare, and are often located in the bible belt, while on the other side Wayne Madsen say (www.waynemadsenreport.com), who is located in Washington DC, would hardly ever mention religion, but would I think be pro-choice on abortion, much to the disgust of the former group.
So yes its an issue but I don't think a breaking one between these groups in the US. The way I see it that kind of brave new world liberal atmosphere that the latter group depends on for its momentum has petered out since I guess the mid 70s. In otherwords what I am saying is that if Roe v. Wade, or the pill or whatever !, really was going to change the world for the better then it would have done so by now. As I say I am only guessing but I think that the wave of enthusiasm that liberals probably felt for such measures has probably declined somewhat in recent decades. Its like they tried that and its here and maybe its just not all its cracked up to be, and for the new wave of opposition groups its just not something to go to the barricades for, even if they are not religious and have no great sympathy for the bible belt type of position. Also if you listen to some people in America you can see that there is growing antipathy among all groups against things like restrictions on school prayer and having to say 'happy holiday' instead of 'happy Christmas'. Meanwhile the Christian type opposition groups have grown very disillusioned with any of the mainstream politicians who purport to support their position, and the same disillusionment is probably felt towards some of the high profile type TV evangelists. This obviously brings them closer to the liberal position. Hence while there is certainly division in the US on this, still I don't think both blocks really collide on the subject, because the liberal position is a bit in decline anyway and the Christian opposition is becoming more and more anti-establishment. Btw while I'm on the subject I should point out that there are various other issues that divide these groups in the US, like gun control, but I think most of these are somewhat peripheral.
Meanwhile in Ireland obviously abortion etc has been debated forever and yet I think that even those that are pro-choice probably accept that the majority aren't, are not wildly enthusiastic about starting those arguments again. Again I am not saying for a second that people don't disagree on these issues, they certainly do, I just don't think that they necessarily drive people so far apart that they couldn't at least agree to disagree. Anyway I have a gold standard example here to prove my point!lol Clearly if religion divided people so much then the defiant rosaries said at Rossport would definitely have split opposition groups and it clearly hasn't, and shows no sign of doing so. I think basically people accept that the Christian, and Catholic, religion has thrived in Ireland for about 1500 years, and seen off many a penal law and an Oliver Cromwell, and few really want to go head to head with that religion which after all remains the faith of the vast majority of Irish people.
This though is not to minimise the huge problems in the Catholic church in Ireland, or not to recognise the many people that have been oppressed by that church, or by clergy in it anyway, in recent decades. On that score its interesting to note that the new Catholic opposition groups that I am describing actually usually favour SSPX and the traditionalist opposition to the current Vatican regime. This must make 'The Hibernian' etc very unpopular with the current hierarchy in Ireland and I guess as such brings them closer to those people who have a very legitimate beef with the same church authorities.

C) Irish Nationalism as it clashes with the UK. It is interesting to see that both groups tend to drift towards a very nationalist/republican position on the six counties, moving away from the more visible sensitivity to unionism that was evident in the south during the troubles. I know that sounds long winded but you have watch your phraseology here!lol The point is that there doesn't seem to be any gulf at all between the position evident in say 'The Hibernian' and the other groups, surprisingly enough. There is nothing like the old enemy to unite people!lol

So much for the good news, now we get to what is the real point of difference between these two groups IMHO. This is the question of immigration. In the US last summer it cleanly divided opposition groups to the Iraq war and the Bush government. In fact I wonder if future historians would use it as a classic example of divida et impera. Hence this current observer at least is concerned that it could do the same for Irish opposition groups. In fact it has been such a long running issue in countries like the UK, France and the US that as I see it anyway it could even divide Irish people for a generation. Decades from now Irish politics could find itself split on this issue, to the detriment of focusing on the very real problems of corruption etc in Irish society. Since I definitely don't think it is an issue that can be glossed over I thought I might look at the debate in more depth.

Ok I wont bore you with the basic issue, obviously people opposed to large scale immigration feel it might I guess overwhelm Irish culture and heritage, and in the event of an economic downturn lead to great resource pressures, while those in favour would emphasize that everyone is made equal, regardless of race colour etc, and is entitled to civil rights including the right to live and work where they choose. Or something like that, I am sure everybody is acquainted with the arguments. In any case it certainly is a bitter debate even now in Ireland as the opposition given to Justin Barrett's intervention showed. And it shows every sign of going downhill from there! Unfortunately some people from the pro immigration side of the debate INHO tend to be quite liberal with phrases like 'fascist' and 'racist' and the other side I think responds by talk of national treachery etc. A sorry sight for any poor soul dreaming of a great Irish opposition movement like Davitt's Land League!

To cut to the chase I think it is fair to say that most people who are concerned about immigration, in any country, tend to be concerned that large numbers of strangers can change the character of an area, and that the delicate and unique culture and social and political balances of a country can potentially be lost forever in a wave of 'multiculturalism' which is sometimes seen as a kind of McDonalds of a social order. In other words the dream of multicultualism, that people would gain from interaction with other races, is sometimes felt to give way to a bland international type environment where every street corner is like inner city London or New York, and where the local unique character of the people is sometimes lost. To look at it another way, imagine a sort of traditional Irish kind of pub, say as featured in some film like the 'Quiet Man' or whatever. Picture the scene where you get an interaction with the people from the mountain, and the 'Great Glen', like the Thorntons or whoever, great people who originally came from Carrick at the time of the famine, or whatever the folklore is. Now obviously this is idealistic, and yes not very common right now anyway, but I would state that it is not true that it never existed or doesn't exist still in parts of Ireland. You would be amazed at the kind of memory and traditions that really do survive in parts of Ireland and that community spirit is I don't think completely unheard of, if now rare.

Now picture the scene say 15 years later. The pub is gone replaced by a shiny hotel with a motorway system to match. And of course it is under some outside management who employ a large number of people from all over the world. Obviously the question of the environment, and all these motorways, is a separate issue but is it the case that the community has lost something by this sudden influx of large numbers of outsiders? You can picture some local talking to people in the hotel and trying to interest them in some obscure folklore about the O'Gradys from the back of the hill. These stories are usually interesting to locals because having lived there they know the area and the odds are that they would be related to the O'Gradys 'going way back'. That is obviously not true of outsiders. Hence I think you can see that if a large number of that local's audience, as he relates his story, are from abroad it just isn't the same and the chances are he won't bother relating it. (2)

I think it is therefore pretty clear that there is some theoretical point where immigration can 'swamp' - as the I guess controversial phrase is - the local culture. In theory instead they will be doing the Latvian version of the Morris dance !lol But I don't know if that kind of corresponding cultural input ever really happens? I know people opposed to immigration have maybe cried wolf on that point in many countries, but that still doesn't mean that it is impossible, if I suppose the immigration is large and sudden enough. And there is some evidence that the immigration that Ireland is now experiencing is of an unprecedented scale in size and speed. One commentator, David McWilliams, is saying for example that Irish people are expected to move out of the island's city centres by about 2020.(3) A look at some census information is interesting as well. In 1990 Ireland the percentage of foreign born residents in Ireland was 2.3, comfortably less than the UK at 4.2, and France at 5.6. (4) This is obviously not very surprising with the big retreat from empire that affected both countries migration patterns in the 50s-70s say. Then in 2002 the Irish figure has gone to 7.1 while the corresponding UK and French figures are at 4.7 and 5.6 respectively. Therefore by 2002 we now had a significantly higher rate of immigration than both those countries where it is so controversial. And as you can see from the latest CSO graphs (at http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/popula...g.pdf) the rate of immigration has increased pretty exponentially from 2002.

So why does everybody want to come to Ireland?, it isn't the weather anyway :-) I know you will be told that its the Celtic tiger and there is gold on them there streets but this observer remains unconvinced on that point. I suspect that a lot of people who live here wonder how much that phenomenon has been exaggerated, even as regards employment statistics. Certainly throughout this time you always hear many stories of Irish people finding it very difficult to get employment in Ireland, and that's true of nearly all sectors. So if not a genuine overwhelming demand for labour then what was it? The theory I will put before you is that the increased immigration coming to Ireland since the 90s is in fact as a result of a strong co-ordinated government policy to encourage immigration at all costs.

I contend that the government, presumably pressured by some employers to act to counteract any wage inflation in an increasingly expensive country, has in practise gone all across the world trying desperately to encourage any and all to come to Ireland. I will rest my case on inter alia a speech given to a conference this year in Latvia by a FÁS economist
.(5) In this presentation he talks about the huge FÁS campaign to attract immigration, which he sees as the engine of the Celtic tiger, using PR companies, ads in papers etc:
"One of the big resource-intensive methods that we used were recruitment fairs - we used to get the companies to come over and we went to diverse places as South Africa, India, America of course, and across Europe, and we'd bring the companies over and they would recruit there and then. And we often got political involvement, we got our minister and the ambassador to open the conference and that covered over any sort of local resentment there might be to recruiting farm workers.

And by and large it was successful. In six months, the website www.jobsireland.com [recte, was written www.jobireland.com, drawn up by FAS to assist people living abroad find work in Ireland] had 20 million hits on the site and there were over 400,000 people who attended the fairs, and a lot of people did come back.

One comparative advantage that we had was that we were the only country at the time when skills were at a shortage throughout the world. At a premium, we were the only country that had a designated task force to bring back skilled workers and to bring in foreign skilled workers.
[Referring to a new FÁS campaign to assist Latvians etc in coming to Ireland:]
Just briefly… I just want to mention an initiative that FAS have also developed to help workers from foreign countries who are coming to Ireland, primarily from the EU-10 who are coming to Ireland, and who are in danger of being exploited.
...
And that’s why FÁS is promoting this, what we call “Know before you go” campaign, and basically we have a CD and an information pack on the correct procedure when you are coming into Ireland and its in Latvian, it’s in all the different languages, and get it on your TV and on your newspapers.."(6)

There is two important aspects to this speech, which throughout reflects FÁS' strong preference for immigration. The first spin that is evident is that the whole immigration effort was almost entirely focused on getting ex Irish emigrants to return back. But notice the reference to India and farm workers? Is that likely to be where those emigrants were to be found? Notice that in this advertisement for one of the many job fairs they point out they are looking for 'Russian Nationals':
"Jobs Ireland Opens in Moscow

* OVER 15 IRISH EMPLOYERS & AGENCIES ARE REPRESENTED IN MOSCOW, AND JOBS ARE ON OFFER ACROSS ALL INDUSTRY SECTORS WITH SPECIAL EMPHASIS ON INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY, TELECOMMUNICATIONS, RETAIL AND ELECTRONICS
* TOM KITT, TD, IRISH MINISTER OF STATE AT THE DEPARTMENT OF ENTERPRISE TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT IN IRELAND WILL OPEN JOBS IRELAND AT THE NEW MANEGE CENTRE IN MOSCOW ON SATURDAY 31ST MARCH AT 11AM.

Ireland's rapid economic growth of recent years has utterly transformed the employment situation. Ireland now has the best job-creation record of any OECD Country. Emigration has now been replaced by immigration. Instead of people leaving Ireland in search of jobs there are now labour shortages.

As a result of strong interest shown from Russians registering on www.jobsireland.com. Russian nationals interested in living and working in Ireland can now meet the employers face to face at the Expo. The Jobs Ireland Expo is part of the drive to attract suitably skilled and qualified Irish and Russian nationals to come to live and work in Ireland.

According to Gregory Craig, Director of Jobs Ireland "Labour is becoming increasingly globally mobile, particularly in the I.T. and Telecommunications Industries, Jobs Ireland is offering the opportunity of experiencing life in Ireland. Not only are there jobs on offer at the show but there is also a re-location village offering practical advice to those wishing to move."

www.jobsireland.com has thousands of jobs listed on site. Registration is free and it is the fastest route to working in Ireland. Advice is available online on living and working in Ireland, taxation, housing, banking, education and healthcare entitlements." (7)

The other spin , that is also evident in the above advertisement, is that with respect to foreign nationals at least, they are only looking for important skills and highly qualified people to plug any hi tech gaps in the skill base of the emerging Celtic Tiger. But this is not really the pattern of Irish immigration, in practise most of the immigrants are employed in low skilled jobs, as in evident in this summary of Irish immigration patterns by Martin Ruhs of TCD and Oxford:
"Laissez faire policies until April 2003 [After 2003 the immigration has been primarily from other EU countries who don't require work permits]
– Labour market test only “constraint” on size and composition
– Rapid increase in number of permits issued
– 3 out of 4 migrants employed in low-skilled occupations
– Great diversity in migrants’ countries of origin"(8)

And another reference from a report prepared for the NESC:
"The Consultants do suggest that Ireland’s openness to admitting migrant workers for employment in a variety of jobs, including low-skill labour," (9)

In case you are wondering, as you can see from the above references, most immigration into Ireland is via perfectly legal work permits issued as part of the "very liberal" immigration policies that the Irish government pursues.(10) This is true of immigrants from all over the world, three quarters of them for simple manual labour. You have got to get out of your head this idea of illegal asylum seekers which is the big issue in America. Here legal immigration outnumbers the illegal type by at least two to one.(11) Large scale immigration is considered desirable and pretty much encouraged at all levels, in order, we are assured, to feed the voracious employer demands of the Celtic tiger. It is described here for example:
"The current immigration system’s flexibility and responsiveness to employer demand for migrant labour has undoubtedly generated benefits for individual employers and the Irish economy overall. For instance, it is widely agreed that with the domestic labour pool drying up, immigration has played a critical role in meeting significant labour shortages at both the high and low-skill labour market segments. This has clearly helped maintain Ireland’s rapid economic growth since the mid-1990s. Immigration is also considered a key requirement to maintaining high levels of economic growth in the future."(12)

So FÁS are only filling jobs that Irish people don't want to do? Not necessarily, the report goes on to point out:
"In late 2002, FÁS carried out an internal comparative analysis of the available data on the potential labour supply (including the number of people on the Live Register and others registered with FÁS for the purpose of finding employment), vacancies notified with FÁS, and work permits issued across the various occupations. The striking finding of this analysis was that, in late 2002, the majority of work permits had been issued for work in unskilled occupations for which there appeared to be a sizeable supply of local labour."

This report by the International Organization for Migration, for the National Economic and Social Council, goes on to point out ominously that:
"Ireland’s policies to manage labour migration were designed in the context of a rapidly growing economy and a significant demand for migrant labour. As a result, there was little concern about distributional issues, such as the potentially adverse impact of immigration on the employment prospects of local (i.e., Irish and other EEA) workers.
...
The lack of effective policies and thinking to protect the employment prospects of local workers in a less favourable economic environment is, therefore, a serious weakness in Ireland’s current labour immigration system."

This laissez faire non EU immigration policy has changed somewhat dating from 2003. It is now reported to be more difficult for new workers from outside the EU to get work permits. (The exception to this are spouses of current EU immigrants who I think were recently given work permits.) But of course since 2004 the main source of immigration has been from the enlarged EU who's citizens do not require that documentation. The EU has obviously expanded by adding on 10 new nations on 1 May 2004 and will add 2 more on the 1st January 2007. All told it has increased, or will increase, by some 104 million people. At one level you would have thought that this didn't matter very much since these countries are on the other side of Europe and any pro rata increase in immigration to Ireland would surely not affect us profoundly? And that assumption has proved to be very wrong. Ireland, although with only 4 million people one of the smaller republics in Europe, has attracted a remarkable proportion of this new wave of East European immigration. e.g. About 50,000-100,000 Lithuanians have come (13), about half of emigrating Latvians come to Ireland (14), and about 200,000 Poles are said to have settled here.(15) Can I just say that on a personal level, as far as I am concerned, they are all genuinely welcome, but whether Ireland's transport, healthcare, housing and other infrastructure has sufficient extra capacity to cope with such migration is a different question. Last I checked most of those services were in a ramshackle state not at all able to cope with the population already here, so why then does the government push so much to increase the immigration levels? Because that is what they are doing as you can see from this advertisement of another job fair this time in Poland:
"Considering working in the Construction Industry in Ireland? Visit the Jobs Ireland Poland Exhibition and find out more.
With representatives from the Irish Trade Unions and Construction Industry Employers Federation in attendance find out more about opportunities, conditions of employment and requirements of the Irish construction industry. Also in attendance will be some of Ireland’s leading Construction Companies who are actively recruiting for a wide range of vacancies."(16)

This campaign by FÁS to encourage immigration from Eastern Europe is run in cooperation with the EURES (European Employment Services) agency of the EU ("In Ireland, the Eures system is based within FÁS") (17) which was created "by the European Commission to facilitate the free movement of workers."(18)
Since as you can see FÁS operates very much under EU principles, they don't distinguish between EU and Irish citizens, and are actively encouraging other EU citizens to come to Ireland, as many commentators have noted, e.g.:
"The first is that the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, which has responsibility for economic migration policy, is actively encouraging employers to recruit low skilled labour from within the European Union."(19)
The interesting thing about this is that the same EURES agency operates within the national labour organisations of the East European countries. In other words they are at both sides of the equation, and apparently one of the EURES partners, NVA in Latvia, is very aggressive in pushing emigration out of that country into places like Ireland:
"Also, the state employment agency, Nodarbinatibas Valsts agentura (NVA) provides information about job vacancies abroad. Comments have been made in the media that the NVA is more concerned with finding jobs for people abroad than in Latvia."(20) The information on jobs abroad must come from the advanced EURES systems, so presumably European Union policy is to encourage this migration flow.

It is a migration pattern that is doubly ironic too, in the case of Latvia, because that country had to face huge forced immigration flows from other parts of the Soviet Union. The thinking of the Soviets, apparently, was that if they could inject enough immigrants it would cause Latvia to lose its unique identity, and so weaken Latvian nationalism which might otherwise threaten the Union. So that after this immigration had taken its toll, in 1985, the Soviet governor in Latvia was openly talking about how people would have to adjust to the new reality and "come to terms with the limitations of nationality".(21)

One person incidentally who has taken a keen interest in Irish immigration is Peter Sutherland, the BP chairman, former EU Commissioner, leading member of the Bilderberg group, and now Special Representative on Migration for the UN Secretary-General. He has praised the liberal immigration system in Ireland, which has "seen far faster change here than anywhere else" across the globe.(22) Now he feels that in response to these changes that "Irish people will have to adapt their sense of nationality", to better reflect living in a country that contains so many people who have not experienced the familiarities of the Irish identity: "We have to learn that our identity has to be adapted to recognize that we are becoming, and will be, a society with others in it. It is a big challenge...We have a challenge to change people's mentality. And it's a European challenge." Anyway he feels that Irish people have no choice in the matter because "opting out of a multicultural society was not an option in an increasingly globalised world."(23)

So my tuppence worth is that the question of Irish immigration involves far more long term issues, and consequences, than just the economy's short term quest for cheaper labour. And that those who argue for less immigration are entitled to this opinion, and should not be referred to as 'fascists' or 'racists' for holding it.

So on that basis I propose that 'The Hibernian' et al and the other opposition groups should shake hands and form a great national movement! But of course what will actually happen is that they will shoot the messenger..............*sigh*........lol

Footnotes
title. I got the title from a concerned reader at the famous indymedia car crash thread!: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78329

1. Liam Sweeney in The Hibernian Magazine no.3 1/7/2006 http://www.hibernianmedia.com .

2. Liam Mullen reckons that something like that has happened in one of the old Dublin hotels http://www.indymedia.ie/article/75606 .

3. http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/Articles/view.asp?Categor...D=378 .

4. http://epp.eurostat.cec.eu.int/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-NK-0...N.PDF .

5. As another example you can see the big campaign organised to bring in nurses from all around the world outlined on p.9 here http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/joint/commttee/J7003.pdf. The Irish government mobilised to get nurses from the Philippines, Spain, India and Pakistan, Australia, New Zealand, and (via FÁS) the EU. This was mainly in response to a decision to increase the nurses training term from three to four years. Surely there could have been another response to such a short term bottleneck?

6. http://www.policy.lv/index.php?id=103070&lang=en .

7. http://www.fas.ie/information_and_publications/press_re....html .

8. Martin Ruhs "Managing the Immigration and Employment of Non-EU nationals in Ireland" (Dublin (TCD) and Oxford, 2005) p.12 (http://www.compas.ox.ac.uk/publications/papers/Martin%2...BP%20(19%20May%202005)%20(2).pdf)

9. http://www.nesc.ie/dynamic/docs/Full%20NESC%20report.pdf p.143.

10. The quote is from a recent report of the NESC quoting a report by the International Organization for Migration. http://www.nesc.ie/dynamic/docs/Full%20NESC%20report.pdf p.143.

11. This was pointed out a few weeks ago by an African immigrant on Questions and Answers, who was frustrated that Irish people don't seem to realize that the question of asylum seekers only refers to a small fraction of the overall population of immigrants in Ireland.

"First, although asylum-seekers probably constitute no more than 10% of all foreign immigrants to Ireland since 1995, they have been the subject of considerable media coverage, some of it negative."(written in 2001 http://migration.ucc.ie/irelandfirstreport.htm)

"Moreover, the great majority of migrant workers have been legally employed in relatively low-skilled occupations..."(http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cf...D=260)

Gerard Hughes and Emma Quin "THE IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION ON EUROPE’S SOCIETIES: IRELAND"(2004) p.37:
"While there will continue to be a need in the future for research on issues relating to asylum the bulk of immigrants in Ireland are migrant workers and their dependants."
(http://www.esri.ie/pdf/BKMNEXT057_Impact%20of%20Immigra...n.pdf)

12. p.41 http://www.nesc.ie/dynamic/docs/Full%20IOM%20report.pdf . What follows is also from this report.

13. "It is estimated that 50,000 to 100,000 Lithuanians are currently living in Ireland, of whom about one third are planning to settle here." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanians_in_Ireland).

14. Julianna Traser for the European Citizen Action Service "Who’s still afraid of EU Enlargement"(Brussels, 2006) p.34 http://www.ecas.org/file_uploads/1182.pdf .

15. Polonia article on Wikipedia and http://www.drakkart.com/eire2/category/polish-emigration/ .

16. http://www.fas.ie/poland/index.html .

17. Eures particularly helps employers get "Access to 000’s of unemployed" prospective immigrants in places like Poland. (http://www.fas.ie/eures/Jobcentre_Plus_the_First_Group_...r.ppt).

18. http://www.fas.ie/services_to_jobseekers/Know_Before_yo....html .

19. http://www.politeia.net/newsletter/politeia_newsletter_...ctive .

20. http://www.eiro.eurofound.europa.eu/2005/12/FEATURE/LV0....HTML .Shows that NVA is also a EURES partner: http://www.nva.lv/eures/ .

21. "The Soviet government's policy of diluting the ethnic Latvian population through the forced immigration of non-Latvians, however heinous that policy may have been,...."(http://www.hrw.org/reports/1994/WR94/Helsinki-14.htm)
"The vast numbers of workers who immigrated to Estonia and Latvia (less to Lithuania due to its predominantly agricultural structure) throughout the Soviet period caused serious alarm in these republics, where it was feared that the indigenous nationalities would soon become minorities..... Moreover, it was seen to be a deliberate attempt on the part of the central authorities to drown out the Balts in their own republics.
....
In late 1985, the First Secretary of the Estonian communist party, Karl Vaino, still openly displayed strong pro-Russian attitudes in emphasising that "the Estonian people's historical destiny has indissoluble links with the (---) Soviet state (---) and the Great Russian People." With accelerating pace, events were to show that his calls to "come to terms with the limitations of nationality" went unheard in Soviet Estonia."
(http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/val/yhtei/pg/kaupp....html)
With respect to Lithuania: "Though the percent of the native-born population in Lithuania has not altered since 1940, even it saw agitation against what has been described as secret Soviet directives to reduce the native element to 60 percent of the population in the republic and 40 percent in the capital."(Gershon Shafir "Immigrants and Nationalists: Ethnic Conflict and Accommodation in Catalonia, the Basque Country"(1995)p.174(footnote 200))

22. Irish Times 8/07/2006 http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/finance/2006/0708/2300....html .

23. Irish Times Sept.26 2006 http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2006/0926/1158....html .

author by Brianpublication date Sun May 13, 2007 08:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Joe Black
But it is obvious that nobody is going to get anywhere in challenging the powers that be in Ireland unless a large mass movement is formed and to do that you have to address these concerns which are clearly held by a lot of people?

yop
But what do you leave out thats the problem......easier said than done! :-)

Detector
But maybe it was only effective when it was united ? And somebody has to figure out how we are going to get there in the first place?....emm

David
I cannot remember saying that immigrants weren't human and all that?

Dob
Absolutely, I guess there is a limit to everything.

Larry Feeney
Many many thanks ! and I totally agree with you that the left-right thing just gets in the way of seeing the real issues, I was saying that elsewhere as well: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/81544 .

Buckbowski
Actually I remember reading somewhere that Irish emigration levels, of the native population, are in fact very high right now, one of the highest in the EU. Apparently many people are leaving because they cannot get employment that would allow them to pay for the exorbitant cost of housing and transport etc.

I'm sorry that I took so long to reply but I just tripped across a few other references that show that in Europe there is considerable disquiet about the long term affects of multiculturalism and I thought some people might like to read them. And maybe we should absorb those lessons before we find ourselves with the same troubles that are arising over there? Incidentally I am now not as pessimistic that this issue will divide Irish opposition groups in the future. For me its obvious now that a consensus is arising that the level of immigration is too high and imposed on people in an undemocratic fashion. I am just going by various debates on it that you can read on politics.ie , it just seems that that view is gaining momentum and that the other view is pretty rapidly in decline. I think it will be like the first Nice referendum with the general public going with a completely opposite view to what the establishment was saying and doing at the time. It just seems to me that this wave of immigration has arrived late in Ireland, after it is obvious that mass immigration has caused problems in France etc, and so it wont be like the debate in the UK in the 70s and 80s where opponents will be classed as racists and forgotten about. Opposition to this policy will be seen as at least somewhat 'respectable', because of the obvious problems that have arisen elsewhere, and once it is debated in an unheated atmosphere it seems that the proponents of this policy tend to lose out badly. Its just my opinion, I don't think it will then have a long term disuniting element, except of course the tensions between the new immigrants and the 'old Irish' itself. Anyway here are the few references to these problems in Europe:

Germany
"Helmut Schmidt, the former German chancellor, has inflamed the country's debate on immigration by saying that multiculturalism can only work under authoritarian regimes, and that bringing millions of Turkish guest workers to Germany was a mistake.
"The concept of multiculturalism is difficult to make fit with a democratic society," he told the Hamburger Abendblatt newspaper.
He added that it had been a mistake that during "the early 1960s we brought guest workers from foreign cultures into the country".
Mr Schmidt, 85, who was the Social Democratic chancellor from 1974 until 1982, said that the problems resulting from the influx of mostly Turkish Gastarbeiter, or guest workers, had been neglected in Germany and the rest of Europe. They could be overcome only by authoritarian governments, he added, naming Singapore as an example." (The Telegraph 25/11/2004 http://www.rense.com/general60/fidid.htm)

Netherlands
"Liberal Holland hits the cultural panic button
The Dutch are backing out of multiculturalism after two high-profile murders. As Britain, too, gets jumpy about its social mix, Ian Buruma suggests a way out.

Until a few years ago the Dutch prided themselves on being the most tolerant, most progressive people on earth. If multiculturalism was going to work anywhere, it would be in Holland. That was the view, at any rate, of the intellectual elite which was by and large of a leftist disposition.
.....
[After a famous murder in Holland] a consensus rose among a section of the Dutch commentariat: multiculturalism had been a disaster;
...
In the beginning people barely noticed these shadowy figures cleaning trains and the like. It was only once their families arrived a decade or so later and children were born that old working-class neighbourhoods began to fill up with halal butchers, mosques and satellite dishes tuned to Arab and north African television stations. This happened after the economic boom was pretty much over.

The views of most Moroccan villagers and Turkish men who settled with their families in the shabbier parts of Amsterdam or central Rotterdam had little in common with those of the newly secularised and sexually liberated Dutch. But the progressive multicultural view was that this did not matter. Each to his own. We may not like the way Muslim men treat their wives and daughters, but who are we to say that our ways are better? High crime rates and unemployment in immigrant areas were rarely discussed and those who tried to were frequently dismissed as racists.
....
The reaction to the multicultural ideal in the 1990s came from two sides. The fatwa against Salman Rushdie mobilised metropolitan progressives, most of whom had been multiculturalists before, against Islamic intolerance. Further down the social scale people began to feel they had been betrayed by the elites who had, especially in Holland, put European idealism above national pride and taken no notice when people no longer felt at home in the streets they grew up in.
....
Immigrants, especially Muslim immigrants, became the main focus of a discontent that was rooted in deeper anxieties. A combination of global capitalism, European bureaucracy and excessive individualism made many people feel dislocated and powerless. Resentment of Muslim immigrants and the rejection, in Holland and France, of the European constitution were aspects of the same attack on multiculturalists, Eurocrats and the bien pensants metropolitans who ignored the common man."
(The Sunday Times November 19, 2006 Review Section http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,2092,00.html)

England
"From the 1950s onwards there were incessant waves of immigration, with the white working class forced to share what were already cramped quarters with a huge influx of immigrants.

When they complained, they were dismissed by the chattering classes as Little Englanders and racists. The incessant attempts to accommodate an increasingly dense population scattered the white working class out of their original habitat. Many moved out to the suburbs, geographically fracturing the strong family networks and communities.

Before that the working class were born and bred in the place they would live for the rest of their lives. Existing cheek by jowl with family, friends and neighbours meant that everybody knew everybody else and their business. A lack of respect or a stepping out of line could haunt you for life; there was an incentive to keep your nose clean and do as you would be done by. That enforced morality and standard of behaviour began to unravel in the anonymity of the new estates.
....
The culture of political correctness and the widespread (and often accurate) view among many working-class people that every other social and ethnic group’s needs came above theirs when it came to government resources bred resentment. From the 1980s the multiculturalists formed part of a breed within civic bodies, keen to erase evidence of the local heritage of the white working class and emphasise the historical presence of every other creed and colour. Had all this been done to any other ethnic or social group, its problems would not have remained so hidden.
....
I would argue that divorcing today’s young working-class lads from a sense of their own history and belonging has played a large part in their underperformance. When the poor academic performance of black boys became an issue, experts were quick to point to the causes: a lack of positive male role models, racism and history.

The poor performance of black boys at school first became an issue in the 1970s. Nobody then mentioned what was happening to the likes of us. I left a comprehensive school with one CSE. Only a handful of my white working-class contemporaries went on to further education. Now, 30 years on, it is depressing to say the least that things have got even worse." (The Sunday Times Review Section Nov 19 2006.http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2766-2459733,....html)

author by Buckbowskipublication date Tue Oct 10, 2006 07:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Maybe the problem is not that there are too many coming in, rather there are too few leaving. It seems to me that too many Irish people have become very content with the increase in 'airgead' in Ireland and no longer want to travel the world.

It is also time that we Irish stopped being hypocrites. When the British were starving our people the rest of the world took them in and gave them food, shelter and opportunity. Now when others need our help we want to place restrictions and conditions on entry to our land. It is our duty under God to help those who need our help. And if you dont believe in God, surely you believe in the concept of returning the compliment.

author by Larry Feeneypublication date Tue Oct 10, 2006 04:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This intelligent, well-ducumented article is very valuable in that it draws attention to the secret cabal that controls the Irish economy and exercizes its influence through the meeja. Charlie Bird has many of the mannerisms of a Free Mason. If Gerry McGeough and his fine magazine the Hibernian can continue to expose the sinister, shadowy forces that control history, the economy, and politics, not just in Ireland, but throughout the known world, ..well then his efforts will recieve the thanks of all right thinking Irishmen.
Your counterposing of Alex Jones and Wayne Madsen has many lessons for us in Ireland who are trying to get away from the sterile 'left/right' dichotomy which serves no one's interest but that of the sinsister cabalists. Alex Jones has long exposed the sinister conspiracy that controls most of life throughout the world, including the 911 atrocity. Some would regard him as being 'right-wing'. Wayne Madsen is clearly a man of the 'left'. He was a regular contributor to Alexander Cockburn's Counterpunch, the Bolshevik web magazine. But lately they have parted company. Wayne Madsen began to detail the forces behind 911, in particular citing Ruppert who showed that George Bush was one of the planners of the 911 atrocity. Cockburn reacted as any bolshevik would and denounced Madsen as a conspiracy theorist. With Madsen and Jones we see two seemingly at odds commentators reaching similar conclusions on the 911 Plot, and they did so on the basis of conspiracy theory. There is surely room for such a Thirdist position, -neither right nor left- in Ireland if we are to deal with problems such as immigration and preserve our Catholic heritage. And this is the reason why the Irish Bolsheviks are now howling at the Hibernian.

author by Dobpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 23:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There needs to be control over the numbers coming here. You can be as friendly and as welcoming to immigrants as Irish people are but there comes a time where we cant just keep taking more people in all the time.

author by David L - IPSC (personal capacity)publication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 22:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Here's my problem. How can you ally with people who see other people as problems, not people. Especially if you're an immigrant, or as the author of this article would put it, a problem.

Nobody is saying we should support the rights of immigrants to exist here, depending on whether 'we' think 'they' are lovely or not. Immigrants should be treated as human as anyone else in this country, with the same rights to be here as anyone else.

The fact that the writer of this stalking-horse article didn't even consider immigrants as subjects, as capable as himself of being part of political movements, speaks volumes.

author by Bullshit detectorpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 18:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

No we can't all be mates because some who claim to be radical in opposing immigration because they are worried about Irish workers jobs, or want to return to a more honest old fashioned society rather than rip-off Ireland are simply putting a radical face on right wing politics. And sorry but the Land league and other organisations did split over all these sorts of questions, land collectivisation, nationalism, Davitt's defense of Jewish refugees...
There is a need for an honest debate on the left about issues like immigration and multi-culturalism but not with Gerry McGeough and Justin Barret, thanks.

author by yoppublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 17:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Could the author who wrote this big long winded article please consider making it shorter in future. Its too big an article to read.........

author by Joe Blackpublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yes

author by Joe Black - WSM - personal capacitypublication date Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

No

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