Launch of Living Wage Campaign

by why not Thu Jul 13, 2006 18:17

why not argue for a min wage across the board rather than just in this case?

Eric Byrne says in this Daily Ireland article that “The minimum wage is a basic minimum. It is not a livable wage"

If is not livable, then it should be increased. what is Lab's policy on the wider min wage? are they going to increase it in govt with FG?

http://www.dailyireland.com/home.tvt?_ticket=X0SEAOWM4B...opp=1

by d'other Thu Jul 13, 2006 19:21

I'd imagine Labour don't want to intimidate the private sector with this rethoric about wage increases there, of course I would say that im a cyncic. Is this not the sort of thing that should have been negotiated under the latest round of partnership? I can't imagine it being much more than an election ploy to be honest. Though it would be interesting if the ATGWU set themselves about a campaign along the lines of the Super Size My Pay one in NZ.

by Gaz B -(A)- Thu Jul 13, 2006 20:52

it'd be nice to see SIPTU and Labour come out against social partnership on the basis that every worker should be entitled to at least €10 an hour.

by seedot Sat Jul 15, 2006 02:10

Are you opposing this campaign? Do you think that trade unionists and members of the labour movement should not use whatever power they have left to promote the idea of higher wages for workers on public contracts? Is it more important to score political point against others on the left or to win a victory that is achievable?

When you are involved in a campaign do you want people to look at the merits of that campaign, to see whether it is progressive on its own merits, or to assess you and everybody else involved on some purity scale of their own devising.

We have to learn how to build coalitions of support that can win some struggles - while accepting that there are differences and diversity and heterogeneity in our movements.

by Seán Ryan Mon Jul 17, 2006 15:37

Surely farming work out to others that the Council are mandated to perform, increases overall costs and dirties transparancy (ie. accountability and traceability)

Why do the council not hire their own workforce and ensure that they are paid properly?

Increasing wages for one sector of society, serves no useful purpose. The proof? Which company will have its profits lessened by this?

Answer: not a one of them. They'll increase their prices and the poor of society will as per usual be hammered.

This is a typical ploy. It's an empty box draped in ribbons. Who pays for the ribbons?

The minimum wage scam has been tried and it has failed miserably. Inflation overcomes any good from the effort and rips money from the hands of the poor. Those whose wages are increased are happy for a brief while until increased prices rip any profit made from their hands. Big business does not exist to serve the public or to make losses and will increase prices of services and commodities to offset any loss incurred by an increase in outlay in wages.

Minimum wage is an obscenity.

How about introducing a maximum wage?

And if this were done what would happen to prices and inflation?

It is the policy of every political party to marginalise the poor and promote the rich. This policy achieves this and as an added bonus will cause infighting amongst the peasents. Way to go Labour!!

by pat c Mon Jul 17, 2006 16:15

I am appalled at the attack above on the minimum wage by Sean Ryan. Is Sean totally unaware of the exploitation that goers on in this country? Does he think that the most exploited would thank him if the Minimum Wage was abolished? The Minimum Wage is not sufficent but if it wasnt for it, many employers would be paying a lot less. Some even now are paying less but at least some legal sanction can be used against them.

The Minimum Wage is not enough and this campaign is trying to improve things. Rather than launching attacks on a progressive campaign Sean Ryan could use his time better by attacking the employers who are exploiting workers.

To raise the call for a Maximum Wage is an irrational rant. Short of there being a Socialist Revolution such a ting is not going to happen.

by Seán Ryan Mon Jul 17, 2006 16:30

Howerya Pat.

Minimum wage has been around for a while now and has not worked. There are more poor now than ever before. I would argue that this is a direct consequence of the introduction of minimum wage.

I'd also argue that you are looking at minimum wage in isolation. Look at the topic from economics in totality. When minimum wage was introduced, inflation negated it, the poor who got no increase whatsoever footed the bill and were knocked down the ladder further than ever before. Those whose wages were increased, lost the value of these increases as the prices of necessitites increased.

This proposition states that it is following similar propositions introduced in the USA. Has it worked there? Have the poor vanished from there also?

I think not.

I didn't call for a maximum wage to be introduced. I used it to show how obscene the call for a minimum wage is. Perspective. If one is seen to be obscene, and it would be, the other should be tarred with the same brush.

by Tank Girl Mon Jul 17, 2006 16:38

I dont have much trust in the Labour Party as a whole but I have worked with members of Labour Youth and there are some ok people in it. Sean Ryan might see this as a good opportunity to stick the boot into Labour but you are really cutting of your nose to spite your face.

Who will gain if this campaign is a failure? Will it mean that immigrant workers will get better paid because Sean Ryan gives Pat Rabbitte a bloody nose? No. I am astounded that Sean Ryan would call the idea of a minimum wage an obscenity and it really makes me wonder what planet he lives on. Dies he have a private income? I cannot take him seriously after that.

Seeing Mick O'Reilly involved in this campaign gives me hope that it is genuine. But if it is to have a real meaning and build up genuine momentum it will also have to be community based, involve young workers, involve immigrant workers and involve women workers who are employed in the most exploitative industries.

by pat c Mon Jul 17, 2006 16:54

Minimum wage has been around for a while now and has not worked. There are more poor now than ever before. I would argue that this is a direct consequence of the introduction of minimum wage.

Have you any evidence to back this up? The non-uinionised workers would be paid even less than the minium wage if it hadnt been introduced. Therefore they would be poorer. Therefore there would be even more poor. Or are you saying that only wages are responsible for inflation?


I'd also argue that you are looking at minimum wage in isolation. Look at the topic from economics in totality. When minimum wage was introduced, inflation negated it, the poor who got no increase whatsoever footed the bill and were knocked down the ladder further than ever before. Those whose wages were increased, lost the value of these increases as the prices of necessitites increased.

That argument was originally used against marx in the First International. Going on that sort of "logic" theres no point in looking for a pay increase because it will all be swallowed up by inflation anyway. Anyway, the increases being sought also look for compensation for past inflation.

Or are you again saying that only wages are responsible for inlation. Given your study of Economics do you not think that some other factors might be involved?

I suggest you go back to studying economics

This proposition states that it is following similar propositions introduced in the USA. Has it worked there? Have the poor vanished from there also?I think not.

And you suggest we do nothing? so because we cannot totally get rid of poverty we dont try and improve the situation for low paid workers. you really are something else.

I didn't call for a maximum wage to be introduced. I used it to show how obscene the call for a minimum wage is.

You showed no such thing. You made an assertion which was not backed up by rational argument.

Perspective. If one is seen to be obscene, and it would be, the other should be tarred with the same brush.

I have no idea what you mean there.

by Seán Ryan Mon Jul 17, 2006 17:04

I seem to have struck a sore point.

The introduction of minimum wage in absence to introducing any other changes will result in big business forcing inflation to increase, so that profits are not decreased.

If minimum wage is to work it cannot be introduced in isolation. It must be accompanied by price freezes in cost of food, clothing, health and housing. (If these essentials rise in cost due to the introduction of minimum wage, then minimum wage is negated).

I'd prefer to argue this topic logically. Let's not wander below the belt.

by pat c Mon Jul 17, 2006 17:24

I seem to have struck a sore point.

No you have not, do you have a problem with people disagreeing with you?

The introduction of minimum wage in absence to introducing any other changes will result in big business forcing inflation to increase, so that profits are not decreased.

Please produce evidence to support that assertion. Wages alone do not and cannot account for inflation. What mechanisms do Big Business use to force up inflation?

If minimum wage is to work it cannot be introduced in isolation.

Thats the second time you said that in this comment.

It must be accompanied by price freezes in cost of food, clothing, health and housing. (If these essentials rise in cost due to the introduction of minimum wage, then minimum wage is negated).

I agree with a campaign on these issues. Why dont you start one? But I dont think a campaign for fair wage should be dependent on these other campaigns.

Obviously not everybody agrees with you.The SWP, SP, WSM,SF, LP all call for a minimum wage. They do not appear to believe that there is no point in looking for wage increases unless you can contol prices as well.

I do not accept your assertion that there is no point

I'd prefer to argue this topic logically. Let's not wander below the belt.

I have dealt with this topic logically. Its not wandering below the belt to point out that some of your points do not make sense. If you are going to claim knowledge of economics then you should expect to be called upon to demonstrate it.

I genuinely have no idea as to what you meant in the last sentence of your previous comment.

by Seán Ryan Mon Jul 17, 2006 17:44

My last sentence was not aimed at you. It was specifically aimed at Tank Girl, but was also a call to keep the thread about the topic and not focus on personalities.

Allow me to make my argument this way.

Let's pretend I'm big business and that you are the worker. Let us say that you earn €100 per week.

Ok. Now in order to exist you must buy food and stuff, let's simplify this by suggesting that you only need to buy food.

This might be a typical conversation we'd have.

Pat: Hi Seán, I'm here to buy me food for the week.

Seán: Hi there Pat, tis always good too see you. Here's your food, that'll be €150.

Pat: Damnit Seán, I don't earn enough, to pay that. I'll have to borrow some money.

Seán: Not a problem Pat, just come around to my banking counter and I'll fix you right up!

Pat: Thanks Seán, what would I do without you.

Seán: Good news Pat, the Government have just announced that I need to pay you a minimum wage. Your new wage will be €150 per week. You'll be outta the poverty trap as soon as you pay me what you owe me.

Week goes by...

Pat: Hi Seán, I'm richer thanks to my wage increase, many thanks. I'd like to buy my food please.

Seán: Well hello again Pat, it's still great to see you, you're the reason for my existence. That'll be €225 for the food Pat.

Pat: Damnit, I don't have enough Seán. I'll have to borrow again.

Seán: Not a problem Pat, Step on over to the banking counter again.

Etc. Etc...

by pat c Mon Jul 17, 2006 18:08

Your comment above did not add anything to the debate. Inflation is caused by a variety of factors:1. increases in public spending (I'm sure you're not opposed to that), 2. taxes (which go to fund 1), 3. extension of credit, 3. increases in non wages costs, 4. increases in wages

Its not just wages and it cannot be dealt with as in your simplistic manner above. Your hostility to the idea of a Minimum Wage does not appear to have a rational basis.

I await your multi-layered campaign which will peg prices and increase wages. Who is supporting you and when can we expect the campaign to be launched?

by Tank Girl Mon Jul 17, 2006 18:44

The campaign got mentioned in todays Independent. I suppose being mentioned in one of Sir Anthonys papers proves that the campaign is obscene

:( TG

Unions back 'living wage' for contractors

A CAMPAIGN to introduce a €10-an-hour 'Living Wage' standard for sub-contractors to public authorities will be launched in the autumn.

The new 'decent earnings threshold' is being promoted in local authorities to ensure that contractors do not undercut public service wage levels.

The move received trade union backing when it was announced by Labour Cllr Eric Byrne at Dublin's City Hall, with SIPTU president, Jack O'Connor and AGTWU supremo, Mick O'Reilly supporting the initiative.

A motion will be presented to Dublin City Council in September to study the implications of introducing a €10 guaranteed hourly wage for those working for firms providing contracts or services.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=...14358

by Tank Girl Mon Jul 17, 2006 18:55

'It was specifically aimed at Tank Girl, but was also a call to keep the thread about the topic and not focus on personalities.'

I did not wish to bring personalities into it but I was appalled at your dismissive attitude towards the concept of a Minimum Wage and I wondered if it was motivated by ignorance or if you indeed had a private income. Anyone who takes the attitude that you do is totally out of touch with the day to day class struggle of ordinary workers.

"If one is seen to be obscene, and it would be, the other should be tarred with the same brush."

Sean, this the last sentence of the relevant comment and I am also at a loss to understand what you mean.

by Seán Ryan Mon Jul 17, 2006 21:54

Well for what it's worth Tank Girl, I'm not independantly wealthy, I have no savings and I don't own property.

I've outlined why I disagree with minimum wage and the reasons I've given have yet to be contradicted in a fashion that actually proves them false as opposed to just disagreeing with them.

I have not given the argument Pat C wishes me to give and is currently arguing against, simply because it is easy to defeat. I have made quite a simple argument, and I've stuck to it, I've even simplified it further. If and when the argument I've used is defeated, I'll bow my head in shame and admit I'm wrong. But until that happens, I'll hold onto my convictions with religious fervour.

My views may be apalling, but this is only because they are correct. Joe public is getting the shaft as per usual and the poor will suffer as per usual.

So if not agreeing with the Unions or Labour or whoever makes me a bad person, so be it. My arguments are of my own making and I'll suffer the consequences of them. I fail to see why yourselves (Pat and Tank Girl) take these arguments at face value (the ones offered by the usual suspects) and in the face of what I have said, still opt for conformity.

If minimum wage had worked, we'd not need to reintroduce it incrimentally now.

by pat c Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:16

I've outlined why I disagree with minimum wage and the reasons I've given have yet to be contradicted in a fashion that actually proves them false as opposed to just disagreeing with them.

IMHO I think I've shown that the arguments you advanced lack any validity.

I have not given the argument Pat C wishes me to give and is currently arguing against, simply because it is easy to defeat.

Sean, the argument you use is easy to deafeat and imho thats what I have done. I havent asked you to make any new argument, merely to defend the points you make.

I have made quite a simple argument, and I've stuck to it, I've even simplified it further. If and when the argument I've used is defeated, I'll bow my head in shame and admit I'm wrong. But until that happens, I'll hold onto my convictions with religious fervour.

It certainly is a simple argument and its probably best that you stick to it for religious reasons because there certainly is not any rational support for it.

My views may be apalling, but this is only because they are correct. Joe public is getting the shaft as per usual and the poor will suffer as per usual.

Your attack on the Minimum Wage will make things even worse. If there was no statutory minimum wage, employers would pay even less.

So if not agreeing with the Unions or Labour or whoever makes me a bad person, so be it.

Your argument, taken to its "logical" conclusion would meam that unions should not seek wage increases because any increases gained would e automatically eroded by inflation. That is not the case and you have advanced no rational evidence to back up your case. Simplistic "conversations" are neither anargument nor evidence.

My arguments are of my own making and I'll suffer the consequences of them. I fail to see why yourselves (Pat and Tank Girl) take these arguments at face value (the ones offered by the usual suspects) and in the face of what I have said, still opt for conformity.

Your arguments make no sense. Its not just the usual suspects. The entire spectrum of the Left, Trots, Anarchists, Social Democrats, Stalinists, Republicans, everyone apart from you support the idea of a Minimum Wage and believe that unions should seek wage increases.

If minimum wage had worked, we'd not need to reintroduce it incrimentally now.

What does that sentence mean? How are we reintroducing something that already exists? Whats being argued for here is an increase in the Minimum Wage. You may not like it but by opposing the minimum wage you are on the same side as ISME & IBEC.

by Tank Girl Tue Jul 18, 2006 19:14

Pat C has written most of what I would have put down so I wont bore people by repeating it and I wont use html either. I just think that campaigning for a higher minimum wage is a worthy cause. I disagree with you because I dont think your ideas add up. Using your arguments one would conclude that there is no point in looking for an increase in social welfare benefits as any increase would be immediately devoured by inflation.

So I will leave it there. I didnt mean to upset you but when you challenge a campaign thats working on behalf of exploited people you should not be shocked when the gloves come off. I am sure that you are not really on the side of IBEC but your opposition to the campaign will only aid them.

by Seán Ryan Tue Jul 18, 2006 20:39

Here's two links that better explain my point as to why minimum wage is a very short term solution to the problems faced by the worker and the poor. I'm afraid the argument is spread out over quite a wide area in these two pieces, but since I've been asked to explain my view ; here it is. It's a complex issue, but the two pieces show where I'm coming from. The first piece doesn't even mention minimum wage but it sets the background of my reasoning. The second article goes into minimum wage and holds it up in parallel with other issues that effect and are effected by it.
Employment and the results of slave training - http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74011
Society - a tool for the few to burden the many - http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74132

I've not taken insult by anything said so far Tank Girl. I just wanted to keep things in perspective. Meself and Pat C always go at it like cats and dogs. That's debate for ya. I'd have no problem sitting down and enjoying a pint with him and I'm pretty sure he'd feel the same way. Debates can get rough at times and I was worried that you and I might end up roaring at each other. I didn't want it to go that way, and I'm glad that it didn't.

by pat c Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:23

Today in the papers we have the case of immigrant workers paid €2.80 per hour. The Statutory Minimum Wage is €7.65 per hour.

Going on Seans "logic" there is no point in these workers being paid €7.65 per hour. If their wages were to be increased their living expenses would automatically triple and they would be no better off.

That, I believe, is utter nonsense. This case should be a wake up call to Sean and anyone else who is opposed to a Minimum Wage.

by Seán Ryan Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:21

Come on now Pat you're talking crap, and you know it. Minimum wage already exists. These people should not be exploited, and I have never once argued that they should.

Like I said minimum wage exists - why are they not getting it?

I'd say your argument is the one that helps exploit people.

'Hey we introduced minimum wage - problem solved - you can go back to sleep now.'

Wake up and deal with what I've said, don't be putting words in my mouth.

by pat c Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:44

Come on now Pat you're talking crap, and you know it.

No, I'm showing you the consequences of what you desire. Please use reasoned argument rather than abuse.

Minimum wage already exists.

But you say its obscene and you want to get rid of it.

These people should not be exploited, and I have never once argued that they should.

If there wasnt a Minimum Wage then they would have no legal comeback.

Like I said minimum wage exists - why are they not getting it?


Because they are immigrant workers who are being exploited. At least they have some comeback.

I'd say your argument is the one that helps exploit people.

How?

'Hey we introduced minimum wage - problem solved - you can go back to sleep now.'

I never said that. Neither did the people behind this campaign. They are fighting for €10 per hour. They believe in an ongoing practical campaign.

Wake up and deal with what I've said, don't be putting words in my mouth.

You are the one who has put words in my mouth. I have shown that your opposition to a Minimum Wage is inimical to the interests of vulnerable workers.

by Seán Ryan Wed Jul 19, 2006 13:21

There should be a minimum standard of living that ensures everyone lives above the poverty line. Minimum wage does not achieve and has not achieved this. Minimum wage is a quick fix, a 'catch all' idea, that falls well below the mark for reasons I've already outlined. You've already admitted that this new push to raise the minimum wage for some is an attempt to catch up with inflation, ie. it didn't work. Poor people were still created in spite of its introduction and despite receiving minimum wage. Seems to me Pat that you'd consider not starving to death to be a benefit. I'd see not starving as a necessity and would never see it on the bargining table to begin with.

It is not being proposed to increase minimum wage to €10 per hour. It is being proposed to introduce it for some.

Is anyone earning minimum wage living above the poverty line?

You and others like you, are equating minimum wage with a minimum standard of living - this standard is below the poverty line and because you and others like you consider the problem done and dusted - the problem never gets fixed. You are very pro-union Pat. Are you suggesting Public Partnership has worked. Seems to me that you and others like you are the ones with lips glued to IBEC buttocks.

In what way does the minimum wage remove poverty - and don't cite those being exploited again, it's beneath both of us that you drag those into this. If minimum wage is law everyone should get it. Again I'm arguing that minimum wage has not gotten the common worker above the poverty line or out of debt.

I know lots of people working on minimum wage. Young single mothers for example - because they earn above a set ammount, they must give up the 'book' and must also pay a stranger to act as a pseudo-parent. They struggle to exist well below the poverty line. That's exploitation.

Minimum wage is exploitation when it is not introduced simulaneously with the other measures I've spoken about already. You've even ceded that this would make the situation better, but you've yet to make a point about Minimum Wage that doesn't drag those who are exploited by not getting it into the argument. Stick to the topic and tell me why we are all better off for its initial introduction. A dog with a mallet in his hole could see that the exploited got the shaft. Tell the readers how it is that those who receive minimum wage are not getting the shaft.

by pat c Wed Jul 19, 2006 13:44

Your piece above is just personally abusive, deliberately misrepresents me and answers none of my arguments. I am prepared to debate things on an adult level but will not engage with childish abuse. You obviously have no idea of what you are writing about.

by Jed Mon Oct 02, 2006 16:29

As someone who campaigned for a minimum wage in the UK and campaigns still for a more realistic one I have sympathy with this campaign. However, we have proven here that you can introduce a minimum wage at a decent level that drags many out of poverty whilst dismissing the fears of self-centred businesses and lobbyists for the business community.

And price rises, with sound economic management, need not be an automatic reaction to a minimujm wage (or, for that matter, a "living wage").

Personally, I think Ireland is paying for its past policies wherein it introduced a minimum wage without proper management of it. And as for the idea of a maximum wage - whatever for? Why kill off people's aspirations? Effective taxation of those at the upper echelons of the salary scale is one hing but capping quite another.