Poker Wielding

by Chris Murray - The Unmanageables Wed Jun 28, 2006 20:19

And drinking a bottle of alco-pops. the man who raped you
went to court, said it was an honest mistake and Minister Mc Dowell
(who used a poker) allowed the well-paid barristers to rape you
again.

Would you use violence against your own body -?

by A10 Wed Jun 28, 2006 20:44

NO
you cannot shoot ,strike,at anyone retreating down the street.The threat is over.Hence the reason that Nally got done,and proper order as well.
Only country that has hot pursuit laws is Switzerland and that only applies on your property.Bad luck to the burglar if you have a half mile long driveway

The landlord owns the property,you are using it.He has a right to enter within reason[IE not at 3 AM to see if the fittings are OK].You dont have the right to wallop him/her.

No you cannot wallop anyone attempting to break into your property/car.But that is not to say you cant citizen arrest them.

If you apply your logic to your tent in Kildare street,your home is INMHO your castle,so you are perfectly entitled to defend it.However you are proably going to be done for being a vagrant.
Best bit of proposed law debated by the Dail in a long time,except our gutless leaders wont follow it through.

by iosaf Wed Jun 28, 2006 20:55

"Thou shallt not threaten a visiting lecturere with a hot poker!" might have been the example given by Popper of a "moral principle" in the 10 minute exchange with Wittgenstein. We know he said that evening, just not "exactly when". The mystery has been the timing - did the quip come before or after Wittgenstein stormed angrily out of the room?
http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/personal/reading/edmou....html
If it came before, then the supposed chiding by Betrand Russell "The trouble with you, Wittgenstein, is that you always get things wrong" takes on another importance. Even murkier is whether or not Wittgenstein then replied :- "I know that queer things happen in this world. It's one of the few things I've really learned in my life." If the comment came after Wittgenstein left, then the final words of Karl Popper the (the liberal & advocate of an open society) as recorded by the secretary would have been "The future is not reached on steel tracks laid down from the past.". Its by far one of the most interesting arguments in 20th century moral history only rivalled in my mind by the last known conversation between Lou Reed and Andy Warhol, which is less impressive as there were only 2 witness - one the cab driver. Popper had worked so much with the challanges of "falsifiability" yet we don't really know what happened...,

How much force can you use on someone else?
Really! How much can you threaten to use & actually use?

That is the awesome great question posed by the bravado reminiscience of deputies Mcdowell and Kenny. Its one which ought interest every anarchist at the very least. I doubt any criminologist or specialist in penology could ignore it either - our courts spend much of their time handing near mandatory sentances for "inter-personal force". The idea of using force on another is as crucial to our understanding of society as the notion of protecting the slow process of sexual maturity in children.

As your national philosopher and someone who has arm-wrestled Chomsky, I would like to recount to you only 2 of the various moments in my life when I have faced off the intruder!

No 1.
It was the first years of the 90's inner city Dublin, smack was on the streets and Guerin still talked to urchins on School street, everyone was getting burgled. I was caretaking a small "two up two down" cottage for a well known architect who had bought the property at a pittance and intended to sell (as he did) once property prices picked up (then forecast accurately for 1996). One night shortly after 2am I heard noise come from the read window which looked out onto a small yard, made the smaller as a the path to the external toilet and been covered over in a very gerry built extension effort. The backwall of said yard adjoined to a complete extension of the house of the parallel street. My house (or to be precise my let abode) was in the middle of the terrace, and to enter through that rear window from the street would have required passing through more than 7 other properties. I turned and roused my then girlfriend who due to her character as a good for nothing was without gainful employment & though of the English ethnicity managed to live quite sufficiently on the combined benificence of the Social Welfare, Health Board and Butter Voucher scheme. The Health Board paying the rent on her flat which was technically the ground floor of the property aforementioned.
rouse thyself my dear, o beautiful light of morn, grá de mo chroí, we're being broken into I said to her. She jumped to her feet and grabbed a cricket bat which was in the corner & started hyperventilating. I advised her that the Gardaí were always on the look-out for more POW's & that she was technically registered to the ground floor of the aforementioned leased property & an unpopular brit. ah'right then, my love, I'll do it downstairs. innit she concurred seeing how I was like - covering our asses. This is when the moment of my moral enlightenment did come...,
I entered the read upper room and found a man who at moment's estimation seemed to weigh full three times my own bulk, stuck in the window frame. Thus far had he come, no further would he venture.
Its ah-right, I've cleaned the bat, no prints, I've put on gloves now.- Will I skull the fucker?
asked the beautiful light of morn & grá de mo chrói in a voice which was just too loud for tact's sake.
The enormous man gave one final heave and landed on the floor breaking two panes of my "rented window" and the "structural integrity clause" of my fixed term lease with it.
you're very british, aren't you? have you not heard of the moral principles of professor Poppet of Vienna? I said, feeling her suitably admonished I then strode purposefully the few steps to greet the intruder. "How are you? Would you like a spliff?" .

It transpired that the man was in fact the next door neighbour whose mother had died some time before, in a sort of horrible distress taken with a lot of whiskey & had decided to climb over the wall and go through our window. He didn't really know why. It didn't really matter. We let him out the front door, and 15 minutes later we heard the bell go. It was him again. He didn't have his house keys on him, and had been to embarrased to knock on our door for a quarter of an hour. So we helped him over the yard wall and apart from my an apolgetic box of chocolates the next day, we never heard from him again.

________________

No. 2

It the late 90's some ten years later, the community in which I lived squatted in London and regularly joined with others to organise "parties" from Saturday night to mid Monday. We had found a suitable location, what seemed a completely abandoned commercial property in the outer east limits of London. Just as we were unpacking the sound systems a group of around 12 people drove thier van through the door of the warehouse and got out. They were armed to the teeth. Armed to the teeth in the limits of East London of that time meant pretty much what "all shooters" means in a popular movie. They told us to fuck off, and didn't even bother using italics or adding "or else". We left that particular venue, and we left it very quickly, we didn't even stop to say sorry or ask for papers & we left a 1.5k sound rig there as well.
Thankfully we never heard from them again.

In both these incidents violence did not occur and a peaceful resolution was had. Of course If I had noticed my flat screen tv, new dvd player, mp4 & travellers cheques all bundled up in a swagbag & thus "at stake" I'd see it all differently..., the cops would have been called..., my future voting pattern would be set -

its all about worth innit?

The future is not reached on steel tracks laid down from the past.
{ Karl Raimund Popper's closing words at the Moral Debate of Cambridge 25/x/1946 }

by The Duchess of Malfi - Citizen's arrest Wed Jun 28, 2006 20:59

As certain people may have found out to their cost, one quite recently.

The other was Peter Tatchell, when he arrested Robert Mugabe.

Citizen's Arrest, now there's something Preston hasn't tried,

Joe Costello sits opposite him every morning in his car and looks

at him- awaiting the erection of the barrier.

Though I would doubt very much if Preston has the ability to stand for very

long at this time.

other modes and methods to protect bodily integrity include

starvation (bulimia, anorexia, self-harm)

some people wd rather to violence to their own bodies than

to anyone elses. because they believe that they are to blame for what

has happened to them or because they are weird because they can no

longer willingly collude in blindness. Two people have been marching with

placards down Kildare Street for 14 years. has anyone read the placards?

by Badman Wed Jun 28, 2006 23:30

These stories are ridiculously implausible. Enda is an effeminate toff. McDowell is a rich-boy nerd who couldn't even make it onto the rugby team in a small school that is crap at rugby (although you can bet he wanted to, he fancies himself as "manly").

These stories are on the same level as Royston's "my dad was kidnapped by the UDA" and Kevin Myers's "I have received many death threats from the IRA" yarns.

Enda's story is particularly stupid. Anybody who "has a go" at two knife wielding desperadoes is an absolute idiot. The first thing that you learn in most martial arts is "if you encounter a stranger with a knife - no matter how good you are - give them what they want or run away". It is an indication of the pretentious, secondary school, slagging-match atmosphere that permeates the Dail that these idiots are swapping Rambo brags to compete about who's the toughest.

by iosaf Thu Jun 29, 2006 01:11

He was a young idiot, engaging with the criminal instead of waiting till the police arrived on the scene. This would probably have been one of the first warning signs, many people who write regularly to the Sunday Papers remember Mc Dowell at this tender age, always boasting of his Nietzchian superantics. If Mayo had mayors with real power, Enda's tormenters would have got the true public spirit of lynchers and vigilante which runs so deep in civilised communities. By now those two knaves would in a concrete land-fill to straighten out the fjords of Ireland problem.

But we live in the real world! oh Honourable Deputies of the coalition and "want to be" rainbow governments.

A world where sometimes upset people do very daft things, and a world where you do exactly what armed cockney gangsters tell you to do. Your area to manouvre in all that being very much determined by how much space others think you own. It really has nothing to do with class as the illustration proves. This of course, will disappoint many 19 year olds amongst whose hopes of romantic bliss are saving their sweethearts from a burglar or intruder. tis not thy abode oh rash braveheart! step not into the next appaling vista
Lets now outline some trump cards of the following order :-
1) Farmer - gun - dogs - car - possible piggy farm (scores the highest we all agree)
2) Unhappy multi-occupational and rack rented property tenants of homes in poor condition or with rent due combined with ruthless & intimidatory speculation real estate interests.
(very leftwing that one. ask the sacred heart messanger to do a feature)
3) Homeless person in cardboard box - (we'll suppose the odds are stacked against that one)

Fine Gael & the Progressive Democrats are reducing one of the most important moral discussions (that of the legislation of the use of force or the threat of force in civil society) to the middle class householder burglary / mugging victim's cliché.

Its ah-right, I've cleaned the bat, no prints, I've put on gloves now.- Will I skull the fucker? or do you still want to red hot poker him?

by % Mon Jul 03, 2006 01:45

Well the Left is up - FF is down and both FG and PD didn't change.
These sort of people don't change, the "have a go types" Enda & Michael.
cliché..... will it translate into seats?...... definite swing to greenies and SF!...... reorganisation of opposition.............. diversity of left options & policies.............credible cretins ready to swoop into power...........they want early elections.......belch..........yawn.............ribbid.........pints of Bass..........Labour lose 2% to general titus.

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-...1.asp

by C. Wed Mar 14, 2007 18:45

The General Scheme for the

-Defence of (life and Property )Bill 2007 has been published.

It is downloadable here:-

http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/vWeb/pcDOJA62ADYA-en

Blurb:- The Homeowner does not have to prove that they believed the person was
an 'intruder' before they skull them- OK- so you can kill someone elsewhere and
dump the body in your house?

The civil liberties repurcussions of a series of appalling legislations are
dealt with in the article and comments above.

We await, meanwhile the vigilante equivalent in relation to the whole
unmentioned area of Rape and the judicial system, including ex-PD
Justice Carney's history in the matter, wherin he attempted to have the crime of
rape tried in district courts rather than in the criminal courts- thereby lessening the
sentence for 'Unlawful' carnal knowledge to a nothing.

[btw:- when ye click the link they ask for a 'log in'- horsehit , the pdf is
available in the section section of the introductory page in http://www.justice.ie
under ;- The defence of Life and Property Bill 2007]

I feel that the issue of the individual is being bypassed by the preponderance
of legislation which is continously eroding human rights- read the above
article.