Gardaí non-compliance with Irish speakers

by Mister you know who Thu Jun 15, 2006 18:22

This is all McDowells fault. It was him who abolished the Irish language entry requirements to become a member of the Garda Siochana. Now we have the results of this.

by May Fayhn Thu Jun 15, 2006 18:36

The Gardai were harassing Irish speakers long before McDowell got to where he is now. I remember even back in the seventies they regarded anyone asserting their right to conduct their business through Irish as some kind of subversive. As if speaking the "cupla focal" somehow made you a provo bomber or something like that.

by Mark C Thu Jun 15, 2006 19:38

I'm certainly no fan of McDowell, but let's call a spade a spade here.

If it was a requirement that everyone who wanted to be a Guard in this country had to be able to speak Irish then we'd have a very small Garda force indeed.

It's the same with teaching. We used to all have to take an Irish exam but that has since been abolished - now the only people who need to be able to speak Irish in the Irish Education System are those who teach in a Gael-Scoil or those who teach Irish. For the rest of us it is a personal choice.

I presume the mandate that you must be able to speak Irish to join the Gardai (sorry, I don't know how to do fadas on this computer) was removed because it was seen as not being necessary anymore, for right or wrong.

Also, I think you'd be hard pressed to find an Irish-speaker in this country that can not also speak English - even if it is to a Garda - again, for right or wrong; it's simply the case.

by Reggie Side Thu Jun 15, 2006 22:09

another "this is bad - stop" press release from usi with no attempt to organise or get people involved in a campaign. Another press release which will be forgotten tomorrow.

by Mister you know who Thu Jun 15, 2006 22:57

Mark,
It wasn't like you'd have to get an A in your Irish just to be a Garda. Infact, you only had to get an honour like a C in order to join the Gardai, and the Garda force itself were always getting bigger in numbers in recent years anyway. More people wanted to join them. Abolishing the Irish language requirements to get into the force further plunges the Irish language into the land of the forgotten. At the least, McDowell could have left the Irish language alone. Do you not believe that our native tongue should be given some chance too?

by Mark C Fri Jun 16, 2006 01:32

I agree, it's not like you need an A to get into the Gardai (sorry, still can't use a fada - please help) but getting a D in pass Irish (or whatever the restriction was) was not really going to help those who would like to speak Irish when being questioned by a member of An Garda Siochana. I know I have the minimum level of Irish to speak to my students (on paper, at least; and I've also being trying to learn some more in the past two years, and finding it quite difficult) but if I am teaching an hounours English class and most of them are taking Irish (Ordinary Level or Higher Level) for the Leaving Cert. I am out of my depth, just like most Gardai would be if questioning a gaelgoir.

I've no problem with people learning Irish; in fact, I'd encourage it. I wish we could all speak it; but similarly I believe Irish was removed as a requirement to become a Garda or a Teacher simply because it was no longer feasible - like I said, for good reasons or bad ones. It's just the way it is. I'm not trying to draw any conclusions here, just calling a spade a spade as I see it.

by hedgehog Fri Jun 16, 2006 02:32

heh..maybe they can fix 2 problems at once by making an A in Honours irish compulsory for all applicants for the garda reserve :)

by Madra Rua Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:47

There are more people speaking English, Polish, Lithuanian, Russian, Congolese, Chreol, Sanksrit, Javanese, Japanese, Bulgarian, Turkmenistani etc. etc. in Ireland than speak Irish.

Compulsory Irish is a joke.
I was taught Gaelige for 12 years.
I hated EVERY minute.
I was being taught as language that I simply would NEVER have any need to use.
My study suffered because one ninth of my ciriculum was given over to an utterly useless subject.
I hate the sound of Irish anyway.
It sounds like a crow with a dead wasp in its mouth.

by gg Fri Jun 16, 2006 13:55

How about making the learning of Irish compulsary when non-nationals want to become citizens of our native country? Wouldn't that be more practical? Better still, how's about preserving our culture and its grass roots?

by ciaróg Fri Jun 16, 2006 22:46

I feel sorry for people who have so little pride in their native language. Our language is part of us, yes it is true that other languages are spoken more in the majority of the country but that is due to the english colonisation and i think you will find that most irish people CAN in fact speak gaeilge even if its just cúpla focal, as everyone learnt it in school and even if not used we retain the capacity to understand and speak a little bit long after practicing a language. I also pity people who took no enjoyment from learning such an ancient and beautiful language as our own in school.

Things are definitly changing, Irish is becoming fashionable with more and more Gael scoils being built everyday, more jobs in the EU and indeed in Ireland with the recent announcement of irish becoming an official language of the EU and the language act here in Ireland. Not to mention the good work done by TG4 and the many radio stations reaching out to young people with initiatives such as anocht fm etc. In the words of Pádraig Mac Piarais "Tír gan teanga, Tír gan anam"

by ciaróg eile Fri Jun 16, 2006 23:08

Má tá tú chomh bródúil sin as do chuid Ghaeilge, cad ina thaobh nach scríobhann tú anseo as Gaeilge ?

Tá chuile cead agat é sin a dhéanamh. Ná bíodh náire ar bith ort.

Ní éireoidh le hathbheochan na Gaeilge má tá muid uilig sásta ár ngrá don teanga a chur in iúl as Béarla, seachas an "cúpla focal" sa teanga dúchais.

by Mister you know who Sat Jun 17, 2006 17:20

Tuigim go bhfuil an teanga duchais an- tábhachtacht.

by ciaróg Sat Jun 17, 2006 18:11

Scríobh mé é sin as béarla mar bhí sé dírithe ar daoine gan a lán gaeilge agus gan meas don teanga!
Is mise le meas (don teanga!!)
Ciaróg

by Darren Mac an Phríora Mon Jun 26, 2006 02:35

As an Irish language activist, I have to say that I disagree with a lot of this "rights-based" approach.

The whole of the Official Language Act has not even been implemented yet (although it will be in a week or two) but even then- realistically- civil servants e.g a lot of the gardaí, are going to get pissed off by people not speaking to them in English after they have demonstrated that they don't speak fluent Irish.

Unless you want a bit of friendly banter with gardaí, there is no point in trying as most of them- like most Irish people- can't speak Irish.

Probably the biggest sin of the Irish language movement is that a majority of its members have traditionally expected things to to happen from the top down, and to believe that this approach usually works.

People within the Irish language movement should concentrate on making Irish visible within their own areas by putting up signs in shops and pubs etc. Irish has to be VISIBLE. It is NOT just a matter of speaking it- that is if you want to see it grow.

by Duine Mon Jun 26, 2006 16:48

An dá bhac is mó i dtaobh labhairt na Gaeilge domsa:
Ní thuigeann móramh lucht na hÉireann í agus tá na mílte bródúil gur sheas siad oideachas na hÉireann dhá bhlian déag gan an teanga a thógáil

by Darren Mac an Phríora Mon Jun 26, 2006 21:45

Duine,

What creative solution do you have?

by Seán Tue Jul 18, 2006 02:57

I'd like to know how many fanatical Irish language activists are interested in this story? Not many, I bet. It's a joke- I'm surprised the USI even ran with it- is raiméis é!!!

by Duine Tue Jul 18, 2006 14:04

A Dharren Mhic an Phríora,

Gabh agam: ní fhaca mé do cheist go dtí inniu.

Más réiteach atá uait, is mithid bheith ar aon fhocal cad í an cheist.
Más labhairt na Gaeilge é, níl le déanamh ach í a labhairt amach ós ard go neamhbhalbh

by AnimaSola Thu Mar 27, 2008 15:05

Tá mé ag foghlaim Gaeilge mar gheall tá sé go hallain, is Sasanach mé.
Níl sé an-decair, is feidir le gach duine, ach ar mhaith leo é?

I started learning Irish less than 6 months ago, I listen to words now that sounded like white noise to me in September and they are now a language that I can pick out the gist of. I work full time, I have hobbies, I don't live in Ireland. But I DO have access to a friendly class and a couple of native and near native speakers.

If I can do it here, then the Irish can do it in Ireland.

It is children who will be the saving of the language though, I hear so many people say that they are 'no good at languages' but everyone of a normal capacity learns languages with no trouble at all if they're taught from birth. This is where any hope for the language has to be focused, in the cradle.
I am travelling to the Gaeltacht to do immersion courses later this year and next year, better than lying on a beach in Ibiza I think, and I hope to have enough language to pass down to my children (as yet unborn) and help them learn with me.

Interesting that one of the people insulting the language seems to have an Irish username.

by lyncher - eire Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:00

im not a fan of the garda this is a disgrace we are not allowed to exspress ourselves trough our first language.
bertie ahern met our so called president he took his gloves off and shook her hands this is proper protocol then last week our so called president met the brittish queen she removed her gloves and shook the brittish queens hand this is not the normal protocol as the 2 of them are head of state .
this says it all we kiss the brits arse we dont want our language back our president would love if we were part of britan instead of being a united ireland who puts the people in power in ireland the other political parties are all the same thats why we get the same result im very sad about our countrys spirit as it is almost dead.

by TaraTaraTara Fri Mar 28, 2008 17:58

After being arrested at Tara for trying to preserve our Heritage I was brought before Judge Brophy in Navan District Court on 18th July 07 under a garda Operation known as Operation Bedrock. Whilst before the Judge I made the complaint that I had asked for a Garda to deal with me As Gaeilge prior to my arrest and this request was ignored. Judge Brophy informed me that it is not a RIGHT to have access to an Irish speaking garda and therefore my complaint would not be entertained. Court of Law folks, from the Judge's mouth.

He said that if a foreign national was committing an offence he/she would be arrested even in the absence of an Interpreter and that the same rule applied to me . So, did we get it wrong ? I was always under the impression that this was almost a sacred right! Or was the Judge covering up for more garda blunders?

Any comments appreciated.

by TaraTaraTara Fri Mar 28, 2008 18:03

I am not a foreign national I am an Irish Citizen .

I should have at least been arrested in my own first language! Not according to Brophy although he did offer an Interpreter should I decide to proceed with my case in Irish.

by stenographer Fri Mar 28, 2008 23:59

& if you're hearing impaired (which I've no reason to believe you're not) you have a right to an Irish sign language interpreter to compliment your excellent lip-reading skills. They're quite hard to find but not impossible. 5% of the Irish speaking population as 5% of the English speaking population worldwide are hearing impaired. Just don't go getting caught out by the stenographer for actually saying you're stone post deaf just before the nasty court duty Garda "two steps above a Tesco shelfpacker and one step below a LIDL spy" makes a sudden noise to force your perjury contempt reactions.

Of course you might think I'm being ludicrous & ridiculous. But ridiculous and ludicrous has served Ireland's interests since far before Cormac Teige McCarthy, the Lord of Blarney & will long after Joseph Bigger brought Frank Hugh O'Donnell's strategy of obstructionism or fillibustering to its sublime heights during the Irish Home Rule party days of Westminster. No-one can make a speech last 29 hours anymore. But we're an ingenious people all the same, (well I am & I don't mind you or any other bodhar * lending me your waxy ears for the tactical bodhraim * suggestion as long as you show the bravery I might never have the opportunity to test on that particular geographic location).

{bodhraim the gaeilge for the drum you all know shares it etymology with bodhar the word for deaf and means to deafen or as the saxon once put it "bother". They pronounce it bover now. your honour. by the way I'm a protestant gaeilge hearing impaired citizen and that interpreter is using the dominant or catholic one hand spelling system which i can not properly understand, i suggest a recess might be in order..., }

by Fearbolg - S2S Sat Mar 29, 2008 00:49

That posting from Stenographer could have been in Irish, Spanish or any other language on the planet and we still wouldn't know what

he's on about.

by TaraTaraTara Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:10

Yes I know we have the right to a Trial in Irish ( didnt know about the sign language etc very interesting and possibly tactics worth looking at) but my question is more about whether it is our right as Irish Citizens to request to be dealt with by Gardai as Gaeilge or not , especially when it comes to arrest or the threat of arrest.

More clearly, if I am about to be arrested or warned of arrest can I refuse to comply until an Irish speaking Garda has been found to read me my caution/ rights As Gaeilge? Do I have the right to an Irish Speaking Garda if I want to converse in Irish and not in English? And if the Judge is correct, when did all this change?

Is it still correct that it makes things more difficult for the Gardai when you give your name and address in Irish when requested rather than English? That was another thing I always heard, that it takes them longer to process :)

So, even if you dont speak fluent Irish it is worth just learning your name and address even just to annoy them.

I should have followed this up sooner but I am delighted someone has brought it up here :) Thanks!

by Republican Sat Mar 29, 2008 23:05

You can speak whatever language you want and an interpretor will be availed off where possible but a failure or refusal to respond to English does not effect the legality of your arrest. Obviously if your not speaking English and the police do not understand you what your saying it cannot be used in evidence until your cautioned in a language you understand. The word understand being important.

Its important to note that if you insist on speaking Irish and dont actually understand the language the Gardai are not obliged to revert back to English as you have already taken your option, be aware of that because giving your name in Irish but not knowing anything else will only make you look foolish and be a disadvantage.

I see no reason why your name in Irish would cauuse any more problems than in Polish, Romanian or the multiple other languages being spoken in todays Ireland.

by TaraTaraTara Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:24

Thanks Republican that makes sense. The name and address in Irish thing is a memory from a long time ago, long before the multi ethnic arrivals . I remember being told that it takes the piggies longer to search through their computers for translations of road names etc . so it made things more awkward for them to trace ya.

Still, despite the fact that they are supposed to have some command of the Irish language, there were none at all in Clontarf Garda Station when someone ploughed into the back of my car and I rang them to tell them that the other driver was "ar meisce". The offending driver was standing beside me during the phone call and being "ethnic" I hoped he wouldnt understand the fact that I was reporting him for drunk driving , As Gaeilge. However the Garda did not understand what I was saying either and then proceeded to call out " Anyone understand -ar meisce-?" None of his colleagues understood so then I tried " Bhi se ag ol" ( sorry cant do fadas) That worked and they sent a car up. Only basic Irish then in Clontarf Trough.

Strayed off subject there a bit but thanks for the reply anyhow :)

by Fearbolg - S2S Sun Mar 30, 2008 21:05

One day last year when we were faced by 200 guards at Ballinaboy, I asked for a Garda who was fluent in Irish. One was found

eventually, a native speaker from Connemara. We got talking and by the time I had explained the situation to him and why he was really

there, he was so incensed that he went and asked to be transferred away, and he's never been back since.

I tell this story to demonstrate the fact that it's not in the interests of Government to promote the language amongst the Gardaí, because it

might remind them that they're Irish, and that would never do.

Mo bheannacht agus mo bhuíochas do mhuintir Chonn a' Mara atá ag tacú is ag cabhrú linn an t-am go léir.

by Republican Sun Mar 30, 2008 21:39

Oh please, as if Gardai dont know they are Irish or what their function is. Thats a lame story and I dont believe it for a second. Ever think that just maybe they dont agree with you?

And surely if your story was so powerful wouldnt it have worked in English thereby reducing the Garda presence to zero?

Tara,
If you hate Gardai so much why did you A, ring them and B, assist them in prosecuting someone? Your stance is clearly a childish one.

by TaraTaraTara Mon Mar 31, 2008 09:11

A. Why did I ring them? Because some idiot had ploughed into my car and bits of his and mine were all over the road causing traffic snarl up.

B. Why did I assist in prosecuting him? Because he was goddamn drunk. Hardly childish.

by block shell Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:18

Fearbolg - S2S

I would say your story is true .I was on gate duty back in Aug 06 at the entrance by the original solidarity camp.There was a small shelter for the Garda ,inside I left a few shell to sea flyers .The Garda on duty being bored read the flyers .
A while later we got chatting, he admitted his prior ignorance of the situation but his disgust at the giveaway from the information provided.

by Buck Mon Mar 31, 2008 13:12

I agree that members of the Gardaí should be able to either speak Irish or promptly locate someone who can. However, if you read the press release, it suggests that a mutual respect exists between the public and the Gardaí. Is he pulling the piss?

If you think it's bad now imagine what it will be like if Ireland is united. Anyone know a pig that can speak ulster scots?

by mac mor Wed Jul 09, 2008 14:16

In a post colonial society, the tugging of the forelock has become a habit, and in dealing with authority (gardaI) its seems our token first language must be sidelined for those so called liberal apologists. The gardai have implemented a strategy of bi lingualism but now they must be employed to use it, by the public engaging them. It seems strange that those who call for liberal thinking and openmindedness are the very first to shoot down the irish language, and bring up their own personal Peig trauma moments - move on, no other country in Europe apologises for using their own language, why should we. Is beatha í an teanga ná í a labhairt

by Leo Wed Aug 12, 2009 01:12

Well i don't speak Irish but i am Irish I am Dyslexic so i have an exemption from Irish therefore i won't be doing that language for my leaving cert next year. How ever as an Irish citizen i believe i have every right to follow my dream and become a member of the Gardaí. If I have to learn how to read you your rights in Irish so be it i will so you can be dealt with in Irish. I don't think its fair on the people that are exempt from Irish no to be able to get into the Garda. Its my Dream to be a Garda i always wanted to be one since i was young but when i heard i had to leave my Irish class i was shattered cause i knew i wouldn't be able cause i thought you needed Irish to get in. But now that you don't need Irish to get into the Gardaí its given me hope. All i want to do is make a difference and by becoming a Garda i feel i will be able to.

If you are supporting this campaign i think that its selfish to try to get the requirment that you need irish to be a Garda. I think that cause the people that are like me & share the same dream as me will have there hopes shot down like that.