Public meeting:who owns Ireland:the people or the corporations?

by Bray Person Sun May 14, 2006 16:39

Dan form PBPA says above;

"The two election candidates were proposed and elected as such at open meetings of local PBPA in Bray and Dun Laoghaoire."

I think that's stretching the truth a bit as to the selection of Carmel McKenna - there was only one "open" meeting of PBPA in Bray

There may have been another meeting for selected invitees only ie; those that the organisers knew would select Carmel

by disingenious Sat May 13, 2006 21:36

Badman...the comment is still meaningless.
Yes the meeting was a good and informative meeting.
There was a good crowd of people there from lots of campaigns
Frank Connolly was very good.
Well done to all involved in the initiative and in CIL and other attempts to unite the left. The charlatans and fools will be left behind while the rest of us move forward through progressive work and debate.

by Badman Sat May 13, 2006 21:31

Firstly that comment doesnt make sense- so maybe Badman should spend more time worrying about making careful comments than urging readers to be careful.

Okay, i'll take it slowly.

"trotwatch" claimed that people who claimed that PBPA is not an SWP front are innocents or charlatans

You responded by getting outraged at him for saying that people who work to bring the left together are innocents or charlatans.

You simply misrepresented his claim in a transparently obvious fashion. Incidentally, I'm not commenting on the truth of trotwatch's claim, merely your less than honest debating tactics.

by Disingenuous Sat May 13, 2006 21:26

Badman said:
"Careful readers will note that Disingenuous seems to think that suggesting that the PBPA is not an SWP front is equivalent in meaning to working to get the left together"

Firstly that comment doesnt make sense- so maybe Badman should spend more time worrying about making careful comments than urging readers to be careful.

PBPA is attempting to bring people together on the left- well done to them and all involved.

by MichaelY - iawm-per cap Sat May 13, 2006 21:19

Leaving aside the charlatans, this was a good and informative meeting.Quite a number of people there too. The positions argued by Carmel, the activist from the Ringsend anti-incineration campaign, and by the SWP member from Dun Laoghaire but especially by Frank Connolly, that whatever you say about him he's neither an innocent nor a fool, were sound, positive, progressive and focussing on a unity position within the left. There is hope if we forget our differences and unite.
For people who do very little except criticise this group or that group to even dare argue things they don't know, understand and certainly do not appreciate is pure charlatanism. All it does is it derails the discussion and attempts to shift their nonsense and make it the centre of attention.
The way land, housing, health, education and our natural resources are being gradually wrenched away from public ownership and privatised is an issue that should worry all of us in the progressive movement and the Left. We should unite and fight against it - dare I say by any means necessary?
So, charlatans - go and hide in your holes please and let us proceed with the debate. Indymedia is far too useful an arena at the moment and foolishness is a diversion.

Well done People Against Profit.

by Badman Sat May 13, 2006 21:19

Quote 1: Who other than an innocent or a charlatan would suggest that the PBPA was anything other than an SWP front?

Outraged response: How dare anyone suggest that anyone who is genuinely interested in working to get the left to work together be described as "an innocent or a charlatan"

Careful readers will note that "disingenuous" seems to think that suggesting that the PBPA is not an SWP front is equivalent in meaning to "working to get the left together".

I've seen such dishonest outrage before. I wonder what organisations disingenuous is in?

by Disingenuous Sat May 13, 2006 21:13

1. You have not answered my observation on your slight of Carmel Mc Kenna- which exposes you as a person with no interest in left unity
So you nicely side step the issue preferring to tackle the less important trival rubbish which dominates many of these debates. No surprose there!

2.My original comment took on an attempt to sideline things with a link to a cpgb website piece where they take a dig at the swp. It'd be nice to stick to the issue and not allow wasters who have no interest in left unity to sidetrack things.

Have your debate on the swp and your fascination with them elsewhere- meanwhile this is about PBPA.

by Sean Sat May 13, 2006 21:10

I am not sure if Carmel joined the Green Party but she did work with them.

by Trotwatch Sat May 13, 2006 21:05

"That aside direct your criticism of the swp to the swp and not to me or PBPA. Check the net get there address, buy yourself a stamp and get writing to them, leave me out of it."

You are posting on Indymedia in defence of the SWP and PBPA. Therefore I will post my comments here. You can be sure that the SWP (I am sure you are not a member) and PBPA will read them. Its up to them as to whether or not they provide answers.

by Disingenuous Sat May 13, 2006 20:56

It is an insult. You may call it an observation, but an observation can also be an insult.
That aside direct your criticism of the swp to the swp and not to me or PBPA. Check the net get there address, buy yourself a stamp and get writing to them, leave me out of it.
More importantly,
Your comments on Carmel are give a great insight into how much interested you have in a new left. Maybe you think that just because she was in two parties which do not advocate the overthrow of capitalism, that she should not be part of a wider left alliance, however I for one think that this is what a new left should be about.

by TrotWatch Sat May 13, 2006 20:47

Its an observation, because I cannot believe that anyone other than a self deluded SWP member, an innocent or a charlant would suggest that PBPA Is anything other than a SWP front. Carmel may be opposed to capitalism but she hops around a lot. She was in 2 parties which believe in modifying capitalism but are not out to get rid of it. When dis she have her road to Damascus? Why are the SWP incapable of accepting any criticism?

by Disingenuous Sat May 13, 2006 20:38

How dare anyone suggest that anyone who is genuinely interested in working to get the left to work together be described as "an innocent or a charlatan"
Is this what indymedia is about? A space for people to sling mud at people?
How arrogant of 'trotwatch' to suggest that I am "an innocent or a charlatan"- you dont even know me- blinded by your hatred.
This kind of rubbish cannot be passed off as political debate. I for one am pleased that Carmel Mc Kenna, a great activist, who unashamedly opposes neoliberalism and is clearly on the left has decided she wants to work with others on left in a progressive manner. Rather than the manner in which 'Trotwatch' would like- which is to make personal slights at me in an attempt to make a 'political' statement.
Its obvious by the name and the comments that 'trotwatch' is motivated by nothing other than a nastiness and desire to see no unity if unity involves the people he/she does not like. You are guilty of the same crap you accredit the swp of.

by Brian C. - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Sat May 13, 2006 20:34

I was at the meeting. Presumably someone involved with the PBPA/DL will give a full report at a later stage so I'll be very brief.

The meeting started with about 50-55 people at it, rising to 60 or so by the time I left (it was a Friday evening!). Most of the Dublin SWP was there, but there were also people from other backgrounds. Oliur Rahman, the Respect Councillor from Britain couldn't make it unfortunately but the speakers were all good. Frank Connolly in particular gave a fascinating speech mostly about the sell off of Ireland's natural resources but also dealing with land rezonings and property development.

It was announced that the PBPA/DL would be contesting the next general election and that two local groups had already selected candidates. These were Carmel McKenna in Wicklow and Richard Boyd Barrett in Dun Laoghaire.

by TrotWatch Sat May 13, 2006 20:18

Now really! Who other than an innocent or a charlatan would suggest that the PBPA was anything other than an SWP front? Did RBB have much competition to get the nomination to run for PBPA in Dun Laoire? The candidate picked by Bray PBPA, Carmel McKenna previously stood for election as a Labour Party candidate and then she went to the Greens. Now she has moved on to PBPA/SWP.

by Disingenuous Sat May 13, 2006 20:11

Since when were the CPGB a reliable source of info? Pictures entitled 'fight' show no signs fo violence or even a mild scrap.
That aside the above comment is an insult to those of us who are not in the SWP and working hard to bring the left together. I wonder what effords are being made by above 'radical'. The above advertised meeting is by People Before Profit, not the swp, so the comment is meant solely to distract peoples attention and to cause nothing but trouble. I am glad to say that lots have enough cop on to ignore the usual swp-rants which are just being used as a smokescreen to scupper any attempts to bring the left together.

by Radical Fri May 12, 2006 15:32

This is what you can expect in the anti neo liberal movement from the Socialist Workers leadership. This is how they treat other comrades even in the last week or so., so you know what to expect. Remember a leopard cannot change its spots

by MichaelY - iawm - er cap Fri May 12, 2006 12:24

Hey Dan,

Will do my best to come along tonight - it seems that quite a lot of comrades I haven't seen for a while will be there. Tonight's meeting is one of quite a number of very positive developments taking place within the wider progressive/activist/left community over the next while. You probably know about this but tomorrow there is a Palestinian support demonstration starting around the Spire at 12.00 - and then at 2.30 the Anti-War Alliance is holding its 3rd Plenary in the Teachers Club. The iawm is planning a series of national meetings on Iraq soon as well. Watch this space.
Don't know about you but I have found Indymedia absolutely essential not only in the 'information' domain but also more and more as a very creditable area for debate...more to discuss I suppose when we meet tonight.

Take care

by valerie Fri May 12, 2006 12:12

Hi Michael,
people before profit was established at the end of last year, representatives at national and local levels have been elected already.
there are branches all over the country already, and new ones are forming all the time.
I dont think the meeting tonight will be about making any descisions, but you might be able to meet people, and find out if theres a group in your locality, when they're meeting next, and get an answer to your questions.
take care,
Valerie

by Dan - PBPA Fri May 12, 2006 11:31

Pat C is right. Its not a launch meeting. the initial meeting was held a few months back, attended by about 70 activists and a committee of 11 officers elected at that. Its a loose aliance of activists so members are people who call themselves members at the moment. The two election candidates were proposed and elected as such at open meetings of local PBPA in Bray and Dun Laoghaoire. What it stands for is on the people before profit website- generally building an anti-coalition left focused on building support for grassroots social movements. It has held a number of successful open public meetings on waste, health. women's rights etc to aid developing policies on these matters. All questions of policy etc are open to change as the alliance develops. Joe higgins ain't coming but i hope Mike Y is.

by MichaelY - iawm - per cap Wed May 10, 2006 18:43

Hi patc -
You made me laugh....although I try hard not to lose it, my patience has a definite limit.
And I know myself when I am near the limit.
At the moment, I direct my anger to the Bush/Cheney/Rice/Blair cabal
And some of their friends here.

Thanks for the message though
Solidarity

by pat c Wed May 10, 2006 18:34

your patience knows no bounds the way you deal with the myriad curious etc. it would be interesting to hear answers to some of these questions about PBPA though. but PBPA have already held a few meetings in dublin. this is hardly the founding one.

by MichaelY - iawm - per cap Wed May 10, 2006 18:18

A number of questions re: People Against Profit and the Friday evening meeting were put by 'Curious' in another thread:

(S)he writes:

"Will a statement of what the PBPA stands for be voted for at this meeting?
Will membership guidelines of what constitutes a member of the PBPA be voted for at this meeting?
Will this meeting elect officers of the PBPA? Or have they been decided already?
How come before even the launch date the alliance agreed to run two candidates in the next general elections?
And finally has Joe Higgins replied to his invite yet?"

Could somebody who knows the ins and out of the organisation, and has a bit of time, attempt to answer.....