Time to Reclaim the 1916 Commemoration - it's already been hijacked by imperialists and capitalists

by c murray - at home. Thu Mar 09, 2006 18:51 dotliath at gmail dot com n/a 0877765289

The article is good. I especially like the quotes at the top.
I am saddened though by the lack of a name on the article, simply
swapping the two surnames gives it a sense of maybe levity.
I am pretty sure that the authors did not mean it to appear light
given the seriousness of its nature. why don't you own it?
ps. I thought O Connell Street looked like a theme park with all
those clown pictures too. another reason to boycott mac Donalds?
I don't want my two kids eating somewhere which glorifies guns
and empty sponsorship opportunities. Will be walking in the Dublin mountains
on the day.

by Larry Thu Mar 09, 2006 18:56

Did the history of 20th century Ireland really hinge on 1916?
I don't think history could have been any different - the Irish Volunteers had largely after all been a mainstream political movement and also bizarrely an umbrella group for crackpot poets and many extremist republicans and democrats and communists and anarchists and nationalists and socialists and proto-national socialists and extreme Catholics and turn-coat anti-establishment Anglo Irish Protestant gentry thrown in for good measure along with the embittered anti-colonial proto-George Galloway type Roger Casement.
It is an historical fact that most young men in Ireland followed Carson and Redmond and joined the British Army to fight their common enemy - Imperial Germany which threatened to swallow all of Europe just as Hitler attempted once again in between 1939 to 1945. They did it for a variety of reasons - perhaps financial - the pay for soldiers was quite good and the troops who didn't drink it or used it on prostitutes sent it home to their wives and kids - but mainly their motive was to fight for Queen and Country in the case of the Unionists (both north and south and both Catholic and Protestant, rich and poor) and to gain favour among other Britons that they were British too and did not want Home Rule or else they were Irish Nationalists who believed that if they fought side by side with the British they would solidify their existence as a nation who deserved Home Rule - the Germans were the common enemy of constitutional government - Germany was a undemocratic monarchy while Britain was a constitutional monarchy -with a democratically elected parliament - quite simply most Irish nationalists wanted to severe the political connection with the crown gently started with Home Rule and further negotiated Independence but had no desire to overthrow the economic system of capitalism and replace it a radical Marxist/Socialist/Anarchist or Fascist/Nationalist/Catholic type government.
Basically while the political mainstream had gone off to war Romantic Ireland was dead and gone and with O'Leary in the grave - except for a few hundred oddball charachters who liked marching around in military uniforms and occasionally causing civil disturbances and public scenes where the wives of Irishmen fighting at the front lambasted them for shirking their duty or boozed up blow hards caused fights in Dublins pubs over political arguments.
If most Irish people really thought about blood sacrifice they saw its place in the trenches fighting the Kaiser.
Then 1916 Rising happened - the nation was collectively stunned by the sheer ferocity of what had come basically out of the blue to both the naive and the politically savy.
The British executions of the leaders was designed to sate the blood lust of the enraged populace of Dublin who had seen their capital wrecked -but really turned things against the British was the brutality of half crzed shell shocked troops in the heat of battle who took their psychological disintergration out on complete innocents in the battles around the city centre depsite the uge death toll of civilians at the hands of rebels for the crime of "looting." It was then that the leaders became marytrs and the process was set in train where by the political mainstream gave their allegiance to Sinn Fein.
Remember at this time Sinn Fein and the IRA were not necessarily the same group.
Sinn Fein had the people behind them but the IRA saw themselves as representing the spirit of the revolution -they were the vanguard leading the struggle against British imperialism after all the initial reaction to the shootings by Dan Breen and co at Soloheadbeg was revulsion from the local population.
The Irish parliament and Republic could still have negotiated peacefully with the British but for the activities and over reaction of the Tans and Auxilaries and the British Army who punished the Irish people collectively for the campaign of terror led by Collins and his goons - with the result that people switched their allegiance to the IRA.
The Brits probably thought they were witnessing a repeat of revolutions in Russia and Germany on their own doorstep.
And thats it.
After all the destruction and death -the Irish delegation in 1922 signed an agreement which was a much worse deal that was in prospect had Redmond got his chance after the Great War with the absence of the 1916 rising - perhaps he might have brought theUnionists with him and prevented partition and the nightmare of Irish 20th century history - perhaps not - but 1916 sealed the fates of us all north and south

by John - dunaree2000 Thu Mar 09, 2006 19:35

There is no law which states that, merely because the instigators of the 1916 Rebellion were socialists (which may or may not be the case), that all subsequent generations have to espouse the same ideology. The leaders of the American Revolution were slave-owners, but subsequent generations in America decided that slavery was wrong and abandoned it. Likewise with Ireland. Whether or not the leaders of the 1916 Rebellion were socialists, communists, leftists or whatever, the Irish people of today are perfectly at liberty to choose a non-socialist pro-capitalist government if they consider it in their interests to do so. That is what they have done. Clearly it irks you that they have done so, but that's democracy. In defence of the 1916 leaders, it should be pointed out that at that time it was not yet known what a crap ideology socialism was and that it would destroy the economies of those countries who tried it.

by iosaf mac diarmada ipsiphi - rts! Thu Mar 09, 2006 21:00

This makes me giggle. For a variety of reasons. Coz ye see, I've got the idea that I gave the idea to "reclaim 1916" and "reclaim the republic" to the FF/PD regime. Jayzhus, the regular reader sighs, what's he on tonight. but it worked like this. Being a campaigner, i write lots of emails, and postcards.
& I send them to the mediocre and powerful complete with samples of handwriting and saliva and DNA on the postage stamp. I've being doing it for years, since a good friend (now deceased) and noted pamphleteer and anarchist showed me how to do it. He managed to keep a correspondence with Lord Denning (just one example) going over a several years, through Denning's strokes, till the stage the daughter was typewriting the letters, wherein the "apalling vistas" of the Birmingham 6 and other judgements "travesties of justice" were referred to, signed, and dated. Sure twas Great stuff.
anyway, I gave Michael Mc Dowell the "reclaim the republic" idea which he has used twice in public speeches as minister of justice. & I've no problem with that. In indymedia land we call it the "horizontal relationship". We put soundbytes and words in their mouths, knowing full well they'll use them, and afterwards they will [because they were designed so well in the first place] take on a different meaning. & then by m,uttering away on "reclaim 2016" and saying I'd organise it, (coz I remember a mac diarmada being involved in the first one) i always said I wouldn't invite the PDs (for they are not neccesary to the good governance of Ireland) and would only invite the SF lot _if they behaved themselves_.

Great to see, the wider public now think we're talking about reclaiming 1916 because of Bertie gurggling. Coz it doesn't work that way. at link one of my first easy to find references to the kicking party we will have in 2016. I'm going to come back out of exile for it.
And read a proclamation.
& not one of you muppets or spooks will arrest, hassle, or spoil my day.
& no I'm not on anything, ealy hours yet

by guydebordisdead Thu Mar 09, 2006 22:09

The state should not be allowed to march its forces down O Connell street this April.

by Harry Broy Fri Mar 10, 2006 01:35

The military parade in memory of 1916 should be halted by any means necessary? You are advocating a level of violence that would make the recent riots look like a tea party. This is sedition.
Thousands of Irishmen died at the battle of the Somme. Taoiseach Ahern has indicated that these men who fell fighting for the freedom of small nations be honoured as well. Instead of attacking the 1916 parade what is needed is widespread public support for the Battle of the Somme celebration.
Such a show of support would be an expression of solidarity with our brethern the Unionists who died in their thousands along with their Catholic felllow-countrymen. Ahern, who leads the republican party, Fianna Fail, shows his true colours with this proposal.
Hopefully it will receive massive public support.
To behold the men of Ulster marching to the Battle of the Somme commemoration in Dublin's fair city, along with Fianna Fail the republican party, would do wonders for our international image so badly tarnished after the recent disgraceful riots.
And make no mistake about it we do need a good international image to ensure the continued inflow of foreign capital which allows us to realize the ideals of 1916.
Its time for all true republicans to support the real republican party and its brave leader, Taoiseach O hEachtergearin, aka Bertie. As Bertie has pointed out the prosperity of the Celtic Tiger means that the ideals of 1916 have been realized. So lets stop playing victim, show our maturity as a nation and celebrate all Irishmen who nobly died for the freedom of small nations, including those in the British army.
Oglaigh na hEireann will be out in force on this coming Easter Day. Let us hope that they take whatever action is necessary to ensure that the true ideals of 1916 are not forgotten.

by anti militarist Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:54

Thousands of Irish people died at the Somme - for what exactly? WWI was an imperialist war, nothing more - two powers taking swipes at each other for domination of potential colonies and shipping routes. A war over nothing. Connolly and other socialists realised this and spoke out about it, saying it was a bosses' war being fought by ordinary people. There is nothing wrong with commemorating the dead - if this State is willing to acknowledge that it was a futile war we should never, ever have been involved in. The irony of people from a colony of the British Empire going to fight to supposedly fight for the rights of small nations was obviously lost on them...

As for the "inflow of foreign capital which allows us to realize [are you American?] the ideals of 1916" - I'm not exactly sure how this fits into the vision that the 1916 insurrectionaries had for the country. Regardless, you seem to be saying that Ireland's political values has a price, or even Ireland has a price - we discard any ideals we have of neutrality in order that we keep our pockets lined. That may we what the celtic tiger is about, but it isnt our history. How short sighted and close minded a few years of shining office blocks and big cars makes us.

But mostly this parade should not go ahead because it is an exhibition of killing machines. I dont agree with all the sentiments in the above article, but I do think there is space for an attempted disruption of the military parade. Also because US war planes are STILL stopping in Shannon, with CIA torture flights. This issue has dropped off the radar as an issue and needs to be highlighted again. What better way to do it when the spotlight is going to be on this day, with all political "leaders" assembled in the temporary seating in O'Connell Street. Its hard to go down to Shannon and make the media/public sit up and pay attention, now here's a perfect opportunity to raise the issue again, right in their faces.

by Larry Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:11

You seem to believe that it mattered not a jot who won WW1- it could have been the Allies or the Central Powers for all you care - yet you seem to think that it would not have affected the issue of Irish freedom?
What chance we had of a peaceful non military transition to Irish independence was thrown away in the violence of Easter Week -the Unionists forever realised that a unified Ireland would be achieved without their consent - Partition was a possibility in 1914 but it was made concrete because of the Rising and the Civil War subsequent to the signing of the 1922 Threaty.

Whatever chance we had of Irish Independence from the British Empire we would have had damn all if Germany had won World War 1 - Britain and Ireland would have been occupied by German troops - perhaps Adolf Hitler would have led the overthrow of the Kaiser and would have become the Fuhrer of a New Europe without the opposition of Britain fouling up his plans. Who knows?

But Germany was the common enemy of Irish nationalists and British imperialists and that is why so many young Irishmen driven by patriotism fought under the flag of Queen and Country - for their own interests and aspirations it be an Independent Ireland.

The Rising was the wrench thrown into the mechanism.

by ffs Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:35

perhaps Adolf Hitler would have led the overthrow of the Kaiser and would have become the Fuhrer of a New Europe without the opposition of Britain fouling up his plans. Who knows?

FFS

by hmmm - (iosaf) Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:44

I am not a fan of "what if" historiography. What if Toussaint l'ouverture had carried his republican revolution unhindered by Napoleon throughout the Carribean, & the French had not sold the Louisianne territory from New Orleans to Quebec to the USA and the USA had not expanded westwards?
What if Cleopatra had a shorter nose and had shagged Ptolemy instead?
what if Julius Caesar had done the rubicon differently?
What if Pontius Pilate hadn't washed his hands?
What if the Czaravitch hadn't had haemophilia and no Rasputin had arrived in court?
What if Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus hadn't defeated Hannibal and Carthage had not been ploughed into pre-history?
What if Wolfe Tone hadn't cheated the noose?
What if the Roger Casement diaries had been worse or better fakes?
What if Napoleon had come to Ireland for 1798 instead of Humbert?
What if Ts'ai Lun hadn't invented paper?
What if Jakob Ludwig Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy had not given the first performance of Johann Sebastian Bach's "St. Matthew Passion" in 1829, since Bach's death in 1750 thus reviving one of th greatest western tradition composers ever?
What if Saul the roman citizen hadn't gone blind and fallen off the horse on the way to Damascus?
What if Pasteur hadn't checked out the dairymaids?
What if Albert Hoffman hadn't broken scientific method and not dosed himself with LSD25?
What if Benjamin Franklin hadn't eaten the goose?
What if the last plane on September 11th had hit its target?
what if Hitler had declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbour?
What if JFK hadn't gone to Dallas?
What if Lenin hadn't got the sealed railway carraige?
What if the 1916 have-a-go types had saved their bullets and not shot the horses on the first day?
What if Thatcher hadn't gone to the toilet in Brighton?
What if Galileo Galilei had been less tenacious?
What if Charles Stuart Parnell had lived in a less kathurlick country?
What if Niall of the Nine Hostages (Niall Noigiallach) had got bored quicker of the shepherd boy?
What if the Great O Neill hadn't surrendered then, and had held out for better communications and learnt Seamus VI had become James 1?

What if -- what if--- what if--- we had chosen different numbers in the lottery?

by Mary Kate Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:49

So the Broy Harriers haven't gone away! Still going strong after all this time ...

by Larry Fri Mar 10, 2006 13:06

The Rising and th e Great War are not events were an really condemn - they are events in history.
No more can you condemn a serial killer for who and what he is - neither can you condemn yourself or your reality for who and what you are and what is respectively - neither can you change for that requires you to have absolute knowledge and control over yourself and the world around you.
You cannot condemn your ancesters or your enemies - they have no more freedom than you.
History is inevitable - it is set in train by previous causes by a previous cause by a previous cause - into the mists of time. None of us can help who and what we are because of our genetics, our upbringing, socio-economic position, our sexual repressions, our infection with religious memes etc etc.
The Rising shares much with the American revolution, the French revolution and anarchism and Marxism in the 19th century and paradoxically has many affinities with the later Russian Revolution and Munich Putsch led by Hitler, the Palestinian uprising and 9/11 - the drive of individuals and people by forces outside of themselves - their supposed freedom is actually the manifestation of forces that have been building since before they were born since before the Big Bang or whatever- but not caused by God or any supernatural entity - rather the mindless impersonal universe.
I think you will agree that freedom and determinism in the one place are not possible.
We live in a universe and a history which could not have happened any other way - your thoughts words and actions and the future, the present and the past are all determined in advance -our doom or our continued survival as a human race is set - we cant change who we are and what we do - but because we are finite beings we cannot know the future in advance - we experience it as if it is indeterminate.
So I say let there be a march commerating 1916 - Nationalists, Socialists, Unionists together - because it is an event which has controlled our destines for most of the 20th century and will continue to shape us in the 21st or else not. Who knows?

by 7 drunken nights Fri Mar 10, 2006 15:35

Start with this line

"The Rising and th e Great War are not events were an really condemn - they are events in history."

Wonder exactly how drunk that person is, then with that in mind read the rest and laugh.

by Larry Fri Mar 10, 2006 15:58

I dunked my head in a bucket of ice cold water and projectile vomited all over the room - it really has given a new look to the floral wallpaper
Though I have recovered I stand over everything i said.

What that line should have read like :

"The Rising and the Great War are not events we can really condemn - they are events in history."

You see the finite individual really only find his consciousness to be realised as self-consciousness - but our individual self-consciousness' are really part of the universal consciousness and the present universal consciousness encompassing all the individuals alive this day March 10th 2006 really only a moment in the life of the universal Absolute which encompasses all of Nature since nature is the manifestation of pure Absolute Free thinking Thought which realises itself through the actions of the finite. If we are to condemn past events and individuals really we are condemning ourselves and our present age and if we condemn our present age we are condemning all of nature and therefore condemning the eternal Absolute which changes through us and all of history time and creation - that is Logic and it is science because it is the science of the Absolute Free Thinking thought.
Get my drift?

by acton - gp Fri Mar 10, 2006 16:38

Im going to U-lock myself to one of the planes when it comes down O'Connell st.

by Coillte, and proud of it! Fri Mar 10, 2006 16:54

The military emphysis for this years Easter Parade and our reasoned commitment to join the EU Rapid Reaction Force is a trend that has been foreseeable. The following quote is taken from the Editorial in the Mayo Association Yearbook 2002, a county that knows all about what happens a society when it looses its youth whether it is from emigration or the fact that they are not born.

“Capitalism is a great system, but it has a finite existence as a result of the suicide policies pursued by the rulers of the Western Hemisphere throughout the latter half of the twentieth century. As a result, Capitalism can now only function properly coupled with a continual decrease in birth rates and massive immigration. Ireland currently is one of the few nations in the Western World that demographically can afford to send its young men to war! One shudders at the ease with which the modern Leinster House seemed to bend under international pressure and ignore sound principles of human existence!

The pressure is going to be horrific!----------------------- Do the government not realise the gravity of the international situation now facing us? We will be caught in the dangerous eddy as the great Western Economies go into rapid decline, caused by the hidden power of demographics and not any highly visible terrorist deed. The hole that Leinster House is digging is getting deeper and the further down they go, the less opportunity for movement. A former leader had much firmer foundations to stand on, when he resisted international pressure. Leinster House now, more than ever for the sake of our future, our young workforce, badly need a stabilising influence.----------------------------------------- The proponents of core Christianity are in the main, few in numbers. The Western World has become weak as a result. It is not that Islam is getting stronger. The current world problems are there; because an element in the Islamic world recognises this inherent weakness, and hope to reap some advantage by causing panic with terrorists’ deeds and will continue to do so throughout the 21st Century! Bosnia, Afghanistan, where next?”

You may be interested in a previous reply to a Neutrality thread and others. See weblinks.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74181

by Seán Ryan Fri Mar 10, 2006 19:58

We can discuss the politics of the Rising for the rest of eternity and we'll still get a separate opinion from everyone who expresses one. Tis a very personal issue that forms part of the source from which we each define ourselves.

The essence of the Rising was freedom. The result of the Rising is history, a new consciousness was born, or rather an old consciousness was reborn, and people chose to cast off the shackles of slavery. Whether they fully succeeded then is debatable, but the fact that they tried is not. And even to try to do this, is to succeed at many levels. Their courage and sacrifice exemplify what it is to be Irish.

Today we find ourselves much in the same position as then. The only difference being that the Bastards in charge are Irish. We still have landlordism, indentured slavery and the very idea of Sovereignty itself is sullied by our subservience to our American betters.

It is an insult to our nationality, ancestry and to the preamble of our Constitution, that these lap dogs of the American administration, would either seek to define the meaning of 1916 or indeed to define how it should be celebrated.

A hundred thousand Irish people marched recently to secure the rights of foreign workers who were being abused. A testament to the nature of the Irish. And proof too - that our spirit has not been vanquished.

Tis time we invented a word - as Gaeilge - for 'no.'

A hundred thousand in Dublin at Easter, demand the return of our country and Sovereignty. Finish the work begun on Easter 1916. Should the oppressors try to lock up a hundred thousand, the system itself would crumble.

by lao tzu Fri Mar 10, 2006 23:02

When I was a snapper, I used to read all those "Warlord" type comics, you know the ones where the germans always got hammered and shouted "got in himmel" and "schnell schnell" or something, and they used to draw lots of really thin lines on the drawing to represent bullets flying through the air. and it was all jolly hockey sticks and great fun.

then when i wasn't such a snapper i began to wonder why everyone cheered the allied forces winning of the II world war, bcoz there was all these comics about other wars that went on, and of course i had some sense that hitler was and nasty and into genocide and that was terrible, but i always had some idea that even if "hitler" had won, well, "hitler" couldn't have lasted for ever, there would have been a backlash, and where would we be then? i suppose i couldn't ever really handle (as a kid) that nuking japan was a good thing, and the world just seemed so fucking unjust, that i couldn’t understand the reverence toward this great loss of life, that had allowed us to be so unjustly free..

so, feeling the "get to the point" editor breath on the back of my neck - yeah, didn't the creation of the Republic of Ireland Free state thingy or whatdyacallit just result in a transfer of power from rich nasty thieves in theirland to the rich nasties in oirland?

and aren’t there a few folks in the white house who are hell bent on genocide (including a threat to the jews) + a military world take over? like the ones who call chavez hitler?

sorry if that's incoherent, but so is my world, and sure what else is a quick comment for?

by Kung Fu Black Sash Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:20

Do you actually realise what fighting - real fighting is actually about?

You ideology, principles, whether you are right or you enemy is wrong disappear instantly amid the melee - its about who can conquer his opponent - how far he is willing to go to come out the the other end alive and breathing and able bodied - even to kill.

Suppose for instance you see a woman being attacked by a rapist - if you are skinny out of shape and have no idea how to wade in with fists and boots flying - sorry - but it matters not how righteous or brave you may be - you will have the fucking shit beaten out of you.

The bravery of the rebels in 1916 boggles the mind and the zeal for their cause - but they were hopelessly out numbered low on ammunition and were not trained soldiers before they went into the fight - they gave a good account of themselves but in the end it was mindless stupidity.

The wannabe rebels of today can indulge their fantasies about class struggle all they want - great words and great sermons - but to ACTALLY realise those day dreams of manning the barricades - WAR is literally blood and guts, agonising pain, horror and mind numbing terror and most would turn on their heels and run away screaming in blind panic if we ever faced it.

Editor's Note: Title has been edited and last two lines removed, because of abuse and "mindless stupidity".

by Kung Fu Black Sash Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:28

Imagine that *** Bertie Ahern with a rifle fighting it out in ruins of the GPO for Irish liberty?
i mean IMAGINE! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Or Pat Rabbite?
Or Joe Higgins?
Or Michael D?

next line edited out for being sexist.

Is there anyone in Irish life with the bravery of The O'Railly?

This 1916 squarebashing is just a bunch of middle age playing with guns - yes Michael O'Dea lets watch our manly soldiers play war for the day.

Your next abuses will be deleted in full.

by Barry - 32csm Sat Mar 11, 2006 22:33

Some very good analysis but.....hardly a mention of the occupied territory ?

Any form of republicanism whose fight for sovereignty does not include fighting for our natural resources (currently in the process of being stolen from under us) is myopic , inconsistent and blinkered . And doomed . Any form of republicanism which concentrates on this and ignores/excuses the theft of another part of our national territory is equally so . Aherns parade , which excuses both , has nothing to do with republicanism at all . 1916 must be reclaimed from those capitalist pro- imperialist maggots , I fully agree .

But the very same undemocratic forces which permit the occupation of our country to be regarded as "democracy" are responsible for the "democratic" theft of our resouces . The same corrupt spinelessness of the political and media elites towards British occupation has been at the source of the outright theft of our resources . They are actively hostile to such democratic notions . In many of the worst corrupt dictatorships they have at least managed to secure royalties for their resources , except this country . We seem to be utterly unique in our total disregard for our sovereignty , or to be more precise the powers who rule us and shape our daily outlooks are . They dont even remotely fear political accountability for their actions . This lack of fear of political accountability is purely a result of their faith in the power of a profoundly undemocratic political system in Ireland . Mere arrogance and greed is not a satisfactory explanation for the scale of our slavish systems utter failure to defend Irish sovereignty in any form .

The armed occupation of our northern territory by a foreign power has been excused as democratic by the left and right . To oppose it even makes you sectarian in the eyes of certain elements on the left and right , among the rulers and those who supposedly oppose them . The politics of utter ballsology which underpins this nonsense are based on undemocratic principles . These politics are based on submission to a foreign insistence that full Irish democracy and sovereignty are unrealistic , extremist , dangerous , sectarian and highly impolite to boot . As the politics practiced on this island , left and right , north and south are centred around acceptance of this British demand they in turn are British politics , not those of Irish sovereignty and natonal democracy . They are not the politics of 1916 , of the proclamation or the Declaration of the Irish peoples Independence , all of which emphasised the sovereignty of our national territory and resources .

Anyone who excuses the theft of either is not practising the politics of 1916 and can never hope to "reclaim" 1916 either . To excuse the theft of resources or territory is deny the right of Irish sovereignty to exist in the first place . If we have no right to sovereignty of our northern territory what right do we supposedly have to the sovereignty of our western seaboard or to neutrailty at Shannon ? Not a sovereign right . Without sovereignty you have no right , except perhaps to express an opinion . which your politicians and democratic media will happily ignore or misrepresent .

This form of politics which excuses the occupation of south armagh and tyrone are the very same which excuse the imperialist war effort in Shannon and the theft of our resources in mayo and now Kerry as well . The same media which excuses British occupation supports all the other transgressions of the Irish peoples sovereign rights . The political system which does not defend sovereignty of our national territory will never defend the sovereignty of our national resources . Anone hoping to "reclaim 1916" must be aware of that , whether in Fianna Fail , the PDs or on the left .

It surely can be no coincidence that the act of physically extracting our resources by foreign , multinational thieves , ( the difficult bit) as well as British Lord Tony Oreilly began as soon as the largest revolutionary arsenal ever assembled in this country was surrendered on the insistence of the British and Americans . Im watching on incredulous as the very pipeline through which our resources will be pumped is being assembled here in south armagh to transport gas to a British interconnector and market .. As soon as our Sinn Fein friends join the British police theyll be physically protecting it from anyone who might adopt the insurgent principle of "make them spend more than they can steal" . Many of our friends on the left would similarly condemn any confrontation with those forces as "green sectarian nationalism , individual terrorism" and other such ballsoligical useless dogmas .

With all that in mind Id simply ask that anyone unable to live up to the ideals of 1916 - radical fenian separatism , social agitation and the steadfast defence of full Irish sovereignty - stay well away from 1916 . They are misrepresenting the 1916 position - Irish national soveriegnty in all its forms . Whether left wing or right wing the ideals of 1916 will never be realised or reclaimed through the practice of British politics in Ireland .

by barry spy Sat Mar 11, 2006 23:59

plenty of the usual tirseome and slf righteous piffle from Barry - or, to use the term he labels others with, ballsollogy. Lots of ranting about occupation, with really only one thing missing from the analysis - the ghost of the hint of the shadow of a glimmer of a recognition that a million Protestants are very keen on the' occupation.' What's to be done about that? Who knows - Barry is determined to fight the Brits. Myopia is rarely more clearly in sight.

In Ireland of 2006 - yes, 2006, not 1916 - I don't think that 'the British occupation' is the major problem we face. It is Barry and those like him - who are determined to impose their will on others at all costs.

by Finbar Thomas Sun Mar 12, 2006 04:05

The British Occupation is having a severe effect on the people of Cork. Every minute of every day it has a deleterious influence on their lives. People are concerned about little else. The British occupation is the main concern in this, Ireland's second city. Until the occupation is ended is difficult to see how any social progress can be made. Barry has got it right.

by Barry - 32csm Sun Mar 12, 2006 17:17

One of the most disturbing aspects of having a stalker is when they continually repeat your own phraseology back to you, as in other threads as well as this one . Ill assume for the sake of argument Finbar and stalkerboy are 2 different people .

Stalkerboys argument about "one million protestants" has not a glimmer of the fact the resources of an entire Island of 5 million are being stolen and transported to feed the British market , transported through the occupied area through a pipeline Irish citizens are being jailed and threatened for opposing . Where are their democratic rights ? Do a foreign governemnt and pro British minority supportive of it have the right to deny the rights of an entire nation to its own sovereignty ?

The denial of Irish sovereignty , at the root of which is the British occupation , directly affects the citizens of Cork and everywhere else in Ireland if their resources are being stolen while their families lie on hospital trolleys and go in need for lack of welfare provision . At the very time billions are being stolen right out from under their noses . That is not just due to a capitalist system , even the most corrupt countries get something in return for their national wealth . Its the result of the practice of colonial politcs in Ireland . The 26 county state is a colonial construct with no regard for Irish sovereignty . British policy , the denial of Irish sovereignty is at its political centre . Its no surprise Irish sovereignty is as non existant in Shannon , Mayo , off the Kerry coast , and in the Depatment of justice and Garda hq as it is as non existent in the 6 counties . Thats Irelands entire political system and that affects everyone .

This is indeed 2006 , not 1916 and not even 1847 . But just as then Irelands wealth is being taken directly out of this country by foreign landlords while the people have no recourse to democratic accountability .due to the fact Irelands political system is not centred around the concept of Irish sovereignty . It is centred round a British demand that no such concept exists . These are the age old politics of colonialism and foreign landlordism which must be consigned to the dustbin of history . Stop living in the past for gods sake , supporting such outdated and historically detested colonial concepts . Its embarassing to hear an Irishman still doffing his cap to his betters after all this time .

by Finbar Thomas Sun Mar 12, 2006 17:51

Barry is right. English landlords own not just Cork but all of Ireland. The wealth of Ireland is being robbed by the English, through its occupation, in order to feed the English. This is happening in 2006, not 1847 or 1916. Barry has a great grasp of the political economy of Ireland.

by Barry Sun Mar 12, 2006 22:21

Where is it being taken to ? If they dont have to pay the Irish people a penny for it why is it not theft ? Why is this happening ? Why does the governemnt no protect our sovereign resources like any other sovereign governemnt would to at least a cerrtain extent ?

Explain all this and stop with the trolling comments . Analysis instead of watery attempts at sarcasm please Finbar . This is a newsite not a bulletin board for internet stalkers and the like .

by Jim Sun Mar 12, 2006 22:46

A guy (or girl) called "Anti-militarist" trying to justify the pointless and obscene slaughter of WWI just takes the biscuit.

The Germans (Prussians) beat the French in 1871 and the sky didn't fall in.

If the Germans beat the French in 1914, it'd be much of the same. It was an imperialist war and if the German empire won, it would've demanded some colonies and that'd be that.
There wouldn't be German troops in London anymore than there were British troops in Berlin in 1918.

The Germans never did anything to Ireland and yet they're the enemy??? What are you on...

by Barry Sun Mar 12, 2006 23:00

Irish political leaders call themselves constitutional nationalists because they say they oppose violence . Yet the tradition and personalities they revere had a political strategy that simply went thus - it was the patriotic duty of every able bodied and red blooded Irishman to take up guns , bombs and mustard gas and slaughter as many Germans and Turks as they could to secure their political aims .

Tens of 1000s answered this call and the ensuing death toll and casualty list made the republican struggle of the entire last century look like a quiet afternoon in comparison . Yet Pearse and Connolly are bloodthirsty extremists , and they were and are the moderates . And now the moderates want to commemorate this mindless pointless slaughter .

Another blatant lie that needs nailing .

by cool j Mon Mar 13, 2006 05:28

Totally agree Barry!! - Sickening to hear so many in the mainstream media(Sunday Indo et al) slagging off the great men of 1916. No wonder it took us so long to get the Brits out of Ireland with so many West brits infesting the place!!.

by Red Keith - Socialist Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:10

The leaders of the Rising were socialists. Founding members of Ireland's oldest party, the LABOUR party.

Keep the Red flag flying comades!

The Left is rising once more!

by barry Mon Mar 13, 2006 14:45

except we havent quite managed to shift all of them,.

by John - dunaree2000 Mon Mar 13, 2006 14:58

Barry is totally wrong about the gas. Ireland exports no gas TO England. Ireland imports almost all its gas FROM England.

by Finbar Thomas Mon Mar 13, 2006 18:22

'British occupation' of Ireland, is irrelevant to the vast majority of people who live here. True, the North could not survive without the billions in British subsidy. But the hundreds of thousands now flocking to our shores seeking economic opportunity are not at all concerned with the British 'occupation'. Neither are the vast majority of Irish people, including those in N. Ireland. And the British would be glad to be rid of it, except they can't because the majority in Northern Ireland, including many Catholics, want N.I. to remain part of the U.K.
This is the economic and political reality of contemporary Ireland. It has nothing in common with the tribal mystique of 1916.
Interestingly, once the absurdity of Barry's political economy is revealed , his response is censorious. If you don't agree with Barry you are a 'troll' or a 'stalker'. And Barry is the one who defines what Indymedia is or is not. He calls his own bloviated crackpottery, 'analysis'. And if you disagree, you should not post.

by Caobhin Mon Mar 13, 2006 19:04

Your partitionist mindset is blatant so you're hardly one to preach Fintan;

'British occupation' of Ireland, - Why the inverted commas?
"Neither are the vast majority of Irish people, including those in N. Ireland. " - People in the occupied 6 counties are not automatically Irish?
"And the British would be glad to be rid of it, except they can't " - This tired old canard is still around and sounds even more brainless with repitition - what exactly is stopping the Brits then eh? Civil War? What exactly would you call the last 36 years ?
"because the majority in Northern Ireland, including many Catholics, want N.I. to remain part of the U.K. " - How many is "many" exactly 100? 1,000? Do you have figures?
"tribal mystique of 1916. " - The native tribes revolting again eh?

You're one to criticize others for "bloviated crackpottery"- take out the plank in your own eye first

by agreed Mon Mar 13, 2006 19:21

Some common sense, after the baiting back and forth finally someone got it right. Britain would love to be rid of NI from the UK. It's a massive drain on resources and a boil on the backside on both nations.

The Northern economy is akin to east germany in that its massively dependant on subsidies from the EU (you kno,w that organisation ye keep knocking) and the UK government to keep functioning. I can see why socialists in the republic are so keen it have it, it's virtually a communist state - everyone works for a local authority, Government, health board, pressure group, EU funded scheme etc etc. Ok i jest a bit.. but only a bit. Its massively reliant on handouts and an economic basket case.

I've little doubt after years of working with the NI Civil Serv that if the UK could ditch the north they would. And I for one would not vote for them to join the Republic. NI is not an occupied territory. 400 years ago it was. But not now. Reality is more than 50% of the population of the 6 counties, and they're all that matters, not what 'we' 26 want, or what Britain wants, those 6 counties have a right to decide by majority who will govern them.

Those thinking we in the republic have the right to force our will on them have lost sight of the reality of the situation and are caught up with antiquated dreams. The opportunity for all 32 counties to decide the whole islands future passed almost 90 years ago - and some would say passed because of the actions of 1916. 10 short years ago we removed articles 2 & 3, we also declared that NI peoples had the right to decide their own future, not the Republic, or Britain.

Maybe you missed it. The vote was staggeringly overwhelming. Stop dealing in clumsy, unrealistic, nationalistic jingoism and just face the pragmatic reality of the island in 2006.

by agreed2 Mon Mar 13, 2006 19:34

The British are not occupying Ireland. They're not occupying Northern ireland. They'd be occupying if the majorty of people in Northern Ireland voted nationist. or voted so in a referendum. But they haven't. So the British aren't. it's really very easy to understand.

Wats so brianless about the simple maths of the situation? NI = political headache, constant bad press, no woirthwhile natural resources to exploit, led to deaths of thousands of British people, army & civilian, gave them Patrick Kielty... I mean does anyone seriously think NI is a remotely attractive proposition for the UK gov? Whats stopping them is that the majority of people in NI wish to remain under the Governence of the UK and its incredibly rare to find a democratic Government who'll willingly
push away a population that wants to be governed by them....

"because the majority in Northern Ireland, including many Catholics, want N.I. to remain part of the U.K. " - How many is "many" exactly 100? 1,000? Do you have figures?

Ditto back at you. How many people in the Repulic would vote for/against a unification? I certainly would! It would cripple the country for decades, bring lasting political instability, most likely lead to a renewed 'civil war/war of independence/terrorist cmapaign' (depending on point of view). I

ts long been recognised that the UK health and social welfare system is better than the Republic. For an area with significant unemployment problems that would mean unemployed catholics would lose significant welfare benefits. For the more affluent business sector, it would lead to a combustable trading situation, instability and regulation changes.

And we don't have the resource that germany had to call on. Naw, keep the North forever, they've made it a shithole, created huge problems and they're welcome to it.

Of course, who knows what would actually happen, but 99% certain it wouldn't be peaceful...

by Barry Mon Mar 13, 2006 21:05

Your , OUR , resources , worth billions , are now the property of Shell , Statoil and Exxon Mobil . Given to them by the southern political ruling and business class with not a thought of the Irish peoples sovereign right to its ownership of these resources . They pay nothing , not a cent in royalties , unprecedented anywhere else in the world . Billions of barrels of oil , trillions of cubic metres of natural gas just given away for nothing .

John Dunaree neglects to mention that the gas theyve suddenly discovered now the political situation has stabilised and arms surrendered will certainly be piped to the UK market , thats why theres a huge feckin pipeline coming all the way from Mayo being built virtually outside my front door .

Ive lived all my life under a foreign army of occupation that was and is utterly despised , hated and unwelcome in my locality and many others . I dont need some idiot to tell me I only imagined it .
If anyone is living in the past it is you spineless apologists for this disgrace . Give them the north , give them the resources. Dont complain , its rude . Its not like you have any right to it is it . Irelands not a proper nation anyhow sure .

And Finbar , Indymedia.ie actually is a newsite as I pointed out to the stalker . Take it up with the feckin editors if you dont like it .

by amused by barry Tue Mar 14, 2006 07:43

Just a passing note to end - my friend Barry has neither acknowledged or debated with a core question. It is only an occupation if the majority of people in 'the occupied area' object to it. Since the Protestants in the north have no such objection, and since many catholics don't object either or are indifferent to it, his argument becomes ballsollgy, to appropriate one of Barry's major terms. As to Nazism - well, I think the analogy is implied in his comments, since by using words like occupation one gets the impression of a nazi style occupation, bearing down on an outraged local populace. Republicans in the past have been quite explicit in such analogies - eg Long Kesh was always, and with typical hype, described as Long Kesh Concentration Camp. Yes, it was a grim place. But to attach a label from a place where millions died in gas chambers betrays a complete lack of proportion and perspective.

That is why Barry strikes me as a man obsessed. Most Irish people, on the other hand, are iknterested in their jobs, their families, their lives. He and his colleagues in the 32CSM on the other hand do play games - green games against orange games. In essence, their fanatical Irish nationalism (which legitimises acts of horrendous violence in the past - La Mon, Omagh etc) has the potential to generate such useless hatred that it creates such acts again in the future. It offers only blood, sweat and tears - without the redeeming feature of an attainable goal at the end of it all.

All in all, sad and pathetic in equal measure.

by Caobhin Tue Mar 14, 2006 13:04

Singing the same tired old selective cliches- all your arguments are taking partition for granted -talking about the majority in the occupied area as if it was a natural geographical area as opposed to a sectarian homeland backed by the London Govt.

If there was an all Ireland referendum on the border what do you think the outcome would be, bearing in mind that "Most Irish people, on the other hand, are iknterested in their jobs, their families, their lives." ?(thanks for that profound observation)

by Barry Tue Mar 14, 2006 16:28

For a start I never mentioned concentration camps , but again why the nazi comparison ? They are a purely British invention first used in South Africa by the British against the Boer population when South Africa was under British occupation , and were still used again in Kenya against the Mau Mau in the 1950s with horriific consequences for those people. And if I remember correctly Major John MacBride who fought in 1916 raised a brigade of Irish volunteers in South AFrica to fight against that occupation as well their occupation of Ireland too .

But now stalkerboy is intent on making the nazi analogies Its also worth pointing out nazi Germany occupied many European countries were the vast majority of the population was indifferent to it or actively supportive such as Austria , Latvia , Lithuania , Bulgaria , Bosnia , Croatia , Romania etc . Their elected governemnts welcomed and co-operated fully with them but that did not make it any less of an ocupation . When Britian partitioned Ireland they made their reasons for it very clear " we directly control one part of the island and exercise indirect control over the other...all with a great economy of Irish lives" . This arrangement leaves Irish sovereignty non existant and an utter mockery of Irish democracy . All politics practised on this island are subservient to this central British demand and must reflect it at the core of their political ethos .

Thats why the establishments attempt to hijack 1916 must be resisted and the inconsistencies in their position vis a vis 1916 and the issue of Irish sovereignty in all its forms pointed out clearly . If you have a problem with that fine . But I suggest you find another way to deal with that problem than stalking people on the internet .

by barry spy Tue Mar 14, 2006 18:02

Barry - why do you think teh British are in Northern Ireland? Does it have huge oil wealth? Diamond mines? Is it vital so that nuclear weapons can be launched from it? That is, does it have in the modern world huge strategic significance?

Alternatively.... it might be that this is an imperial legacy they woudl be happy to be shot of, but are trapped by their history and ours, and by teh enthuaiasm that Protestants show for it. In which case, the British presence as the main problem on the island becomes a ludicrous proposition and the task for thsoe who want Irish unity becomes that of persuading thsoe in favour, rather than anything else.

That is what I think anyway.

by Republican Tue Mar 14, 2006 19:23

The revolution inevitably can only arise from the Nationalist Republican Roman Catholic class north and south who will arm themselves and with one mind rise up against their British puppet masters who control the levers of power behind the scenes in the entity called "Northern Ireland" and "Eire."
President McAleese, Taoiseach Ahern, Cabinet ministers, Enda Kenny, Pat Rabbitte, Trevor Sergeant and senior FF, FG, Labour, Green TD's by their very nature cannot be rehabilitated and must be executed as soon as the rising is successful. In the North the "elected" members of the Unionists and Nationalist political parties not allied with Republican parties must also be disposed off.
Senior Army officers, Garda top brass, chief civil servants, religious leaders and executives of both public and private corporations must all be hunted down and summarily executed.
The bourgeoise class north and south must then be cleansed. Those among the bourgeoise class which is unreceptive to revolutionary consciousness must be disposed of in the same way as their masters were.
Why did I say the revolution shall come from the Nationalist Republican Roman Catholic class? Because the Protestant Pro-British population which form the majority in the entity called "Northern Ireland" are the enemy of Irish unification - they must either abandon their pro-British Protestant bourgeoise ideology and be absorbed into the Irish people or else be exiled. If they refuse to be exiled then they will pay the consequences as enemies of the revolution - they will be house in re-education holding centres until such time as they willingly adopt revolutionary consciousness.
Naturally this will arouse violent opposition among them so the strife will serve our purpose in cleaving away the most undesireable elements among them who will die in the fighting.
Property redistribution will eliminate the class difference and once they are divested of their property, the bourgeoise class will cease to exist and will inevitably be absorbed in the proletariate.
Following the success of the revolution the Nationalist Republican Roman Catholic community will have served its purpose - the ideology of that tribe will have to be cleaved away also - their priests, nuns, brothers and religious teachers and must be disposed of and the most fervent in their congregations eliminate - it is those who maintain the consciousness of that ideology - this will mean that the community itself must come under the closest scrutiny so that every trace of the previous desire for religious and bourgeoise capitalist ideology must be removed and rooted out - this must be done as ruthlessly and efficiently as is possible.
Minority communities must join our revolutionary movement or be returned to their home countries.
Naturally this movement will arouse international interference- there force the entire population must be armed and politically motivated to repel invaders with the utmost fanaticism.

by Socialist Republican Idealist Tue Mar 14, 2006 20:24

Let us free Ireland! - James Connolly

Let us free Ireland! Never mind such base, carnal thoughts as concern work and wages, healthy homes, or lives unclouded by poverty.

Let us free Ireland! The rackrenting landlord; is he not also an Irishman, and wherefore should we hate him? Nay, let us not speak harshly of our brother – yea, even when he raises our rent.

Let us free Ireland! The profit-grinding capitalist, who robs us of three-fourths of the fruits of our labour, who sucks the very marrow of our bones when we are young, and then throws us out in the street, like a worn-out tool when we are grown prematurely old in his service, is he not an Irishman, and mayhap a patriot, and wherefore should we think harshly of him?

Let us free Ireland! “The land that bred and bore us.” And the landlord who makes us pay for permission to live upon it. Whoop it up for liberty!

“Let us free Ireland,” says the patriot who won’t touch Socialism. Let us all join together and cr-r-rush the br-r-rutal Saxon. Let us all join together, says he, all classes and creeds. And, says the town worker, after we have crushed the Saxon and freed Ireland, what will we do? Oh, then you can go back to your slums, same as before. Whoop it up for liberty!

And, says the agricultural workers, after we have freed Ireland, what then? Oh, then you can go scraping around for the landlord’s rent or the money-lenders’ interest same as before. Whoop it up for liberty!

After Ireland is free, says the patriot who won’t touch socialism, we will protect all classes, and if you won’t pay your rent you will be evicted same as now. But the evicting party, under command of the sheriff, will wear green uniforms and the Harp without the Crown, and the warrant turning you out on the roadside will be stamped with the arms of the Irish Republic. Now, isn’t that worth fighting for?

And when you cannot find employment, and, giving up the struggle of life in despair, enter the poorhouse, the band of the nearest regiment of the Irish army will escort you to the poorhouse door to the tune of St. Patrick's Day. Oh! It will be nice to live in those days!

“With the Green Flag floating o’er us” and an ever-increasing army of unemployed workers walking about under the Green Flag, wishing they had something to eat. Same as now! Whoop it up for liberty!

Now, my friend, I also am Irish, but I’m a bit more logical. The capitalist, I say, is a parasite on industry; as useless in the present stage of our industrial development as any other parasite in the animal or vegetable world is to the life of the animal or vegetable upon which it feeds.

The working class is the victim of this parasite – this human leech, and it is the duty and interest of the working class to use every means in its power to oust this parasite class from the position which enables it to thus prey upon the vitals of labour.

Therefore, I say, let us organise as a class to meet our masters and destroy their mastership; organise to drive them from their hold upon public life through their political power; organise to wrench from their robber clutch the land and workshops on and in which they enslave us; organise to cleanse our social life from the stain of social cannibalism, from the preying of man upon his fellow man.

Organise for a full, free and happy life FOR ALL OR FOR NONE.

by Republican Idealist Tue Mar 14, 2006 20:51

Nationalist Republican Roman Catholic Class!? For starters you have yet to fathom the structure of class warfare. In fact you don't even seem to fathom the idea of it.

Republicanism is a socialist ideal that encompasses a political ideal that caters for all of Ireland's people, wealth and resources and is separate from any religion as it is a political belief and not a belief in, what some might see as, the supernatural.

Nationalism deals with ethnicity and national identity. Most times it can be likened more to fascism than anything else, something Republicanism is in complete contradiction with. My point is that Nationalist Republican Roman Catholic class is a contradiction and quite nonsensical in my opinion.

by Jim Wed Mar 15, 2006 18:04

Funnily enough, in 1916, it was believed:
* 'British occupation' of Ireland was irrelevant to the vast majority of people who live here.
* Ireland could not survive without British subsidies.
* the average joe was not at all concerned with the British 'occupation'. (look at the royal visit of 1904).

Seems to have an awful lot in common with 1916.

Nationalism in Ireland was never ethnic.

Was Padraig Pearce considered less of an Irish man because his father was English?

Was Dev considered less of an Irish man because not only was his father Cuban but he wasn't born here?

And what of Countess Markievicz??? Born in England and married to a Pole??

by Rory Wed Mar 15, 2006 19:50

Your right. None of them were Irish just as Hitler was not German but Austrian and Stalin was a Georgian not a Russian. Jesus wasn't a Jew or even a human being - he was a deity for fucksake!

by Republican Fri Apr 14, 2006 15:15

Lets stop this blueshirt, fascist parade.
The Free State are attempting to take the good name of 1916 and flush it down the toilet.
Lets have a symbolic sit down protest in the name of the men of 1916(up at o'connell brige?).
Tiochfidh ar la!

by Mark Twain Sun Apr 16, 2006 19:27

Well, I would not say that the nostalgic manifestations of your government are fascist. But the south of your island and the increasing the north are both well integrated with Weatern Imperialism (US, UK, EU--though there are some factional rows within this group). So, If you are a richie by global strandards enjoy the feast and the party--it will not last forever. As for the "Ideas of 1916"--they are practically pretty much a pile of horse manure. But actual horse manure is much more useful.

The US was started by a "revolution" too.

But I much prefer the freaks and bohemians of 1916 to the slave-holders and Indian-killers of 1776.

by corneilius Sun Apr 16, 2006 23:40

"Armed struggle is peoples politics" was posted in another 1916 commentary.

Armed struggle is profit for arms manufacturers, a tragedy for the young men and women who fight, are maimed, truamatised and die. And it destroys land, communities and faith in our deepest nature.

Any "stuggle" that reverts to violence only serves the interests of those who would be most violent.

The 1916 Insurrection was a mistake, and while it is possible to understand why that mistake was made, there's no point in gloryfy-ing it or in repeating it.

I am appalled at how many people still think in terms of the last 15,000 years of 'civilisation', given that the information is readily available that would lead us to listen to our children.

If you want a revolution, learn with your children to be honest, fearless and spiritually free, (as they are all born that way) and be prepared to put up with a little hardship, as are the millions who march in India, South America and other places. And learn to grow your own food!

http://www.naturalchild.com

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com