Postal workers rally across Belfast peaceline

by w Thu Apr 06, 2006 15:44

i read lots of critical leeters of the swp in the britsh socialist worker. Even one in this weeks issue with someone arguing that the unions shouldnt break with labour.
apolicy that the swp see as a massive barrier to gowth of trade union militancy
????

by Link master Thu Mar 23, 2006 18:43

Below is link to BK's second, and 'partial' engagement on Indymedia which would be beneficial to read with this article

by Socialist Party - CWI Fri Feb 17, 2006 19:11

Text of Socialist Party leaflet distributed to postal workers mass meeting Belfast 17th Feb 2006

Royal Mail management on the run

Victory in Sight

The Socialist Party salutes the striking postal workers. It is clear that almost three weeks into the strike the Royal Mail management is on the run.

Royal Mail provoked this strike through their tyrannical management regime. In BT13 their policy of petty harassment, disciplinary action and sackings finally pushed the workers too far.

When the walk outs took place the management clearly thought they could teach postal workers a lesson. They put impossible conditions on any return to work knowing this would drag out the strike.

They hoped that because the strike was unofficial the workers from Tomb Street and Mallusk could be isolated and starved back to work. Then they could tighten the disciplinary and productivity screws even tighter and victimise those union reps who stood in their way.

This would be a prelude to further attacks on conditions, changes in work practices and ultimately to privatisation.

The management miscalculated badly. They underestimated the solidarity and determination of the postal workers and the massive support they could expect from other trade unionists.

Now they have their tail between their legs. The main demands of the strike have been conceded. There are loose ends that need to be tied up in relation to what will be covered in the disciplinary review but it is already clear that this is an important victory.

Why a victory is important for postal workers…..

The details of the settlement are important. But the key thing is that the strike has won and that Royal Mail management know it.

If management felt the upper hand they could drag out any review, distort or ignore its findings and carry on as before.

It is the fact that the strike has been won and union members will be going back stronger and more determined that will change things on the ground.

In future every time a postal worker is called before a line manager or more senior manager on some petty issue he or she knows that they don't have to put up with harassment and that every worker on the job will back them.

Whatever the settlement a strong union is needed to make sure that things change.

…..and for all other workers

Since the Thatcher years workers have found it much more difficult to go on strike and strikes have been harder to win.

Because of this both private employers and the government have been able to drive back working conditions and workplace rights.

Public services have been pared back and sold off. Wages are being held down - civil service workers who are on the minimum wage have just had to accept a penny an hour pay rise! Pension rights are now under attack.

This strike has been an inspiration to tens of thousands of other workers. It has shown that it is possible to fight back and to win.

The union leaders need to take notice

One reason why workers have found it hard to take effective strike action is because most of the trade union leaderships have for years buried their heads in the sand rather than lead a successful fight back.

When low paid workers in the Gate Gourmet catering company at Heathrow walked out last summer, the demands of fellow BA workers for sympathetic action that could have won the dispute were turned down by trade union leaders because of the anti-union laws. These same leaders should take a lesson from this strike. Technically this walkout has been illegal, but because postal workers have stood solid the anti-union laws have remained suspended in mid air.

If the overall leadership of the trade unions showed one tenth of the solidarity and determination the postal workers have shown in the last three weeks the whole neo-liberal offensive of employers and the Blair government could be driven back.

The Socialist Party fights within the trade unions for a fighting leadership. We believe all union officials should be elected, not appointed, and should receive only the wages of the workers they represent.

Worker’s unity

The strike has also shown that working class people in Northern Ireland can stand together despite the sectarian division. The unity shown in the march up the Shankill and down the Falls will go down as one of the proudest moments of Northern Ireland trade union history.

Meanwhile the sectarian politicians do their best to keep us divided - otherwise they will not get re-elected. The Socialist Party believes that these people are incapable of delivering a real peace process that will bring the communities, not just a few politicians, together.

A real peace process must be built from below, from trade unionists, community activists, young people and from socialists. We believe these forces should come together to build a new party of the working class which can offer a socialist alternative to sectarianism.

Break with New Labour

A new working class party is also needed in Britain. It is time that the trade unions - including the CWU - stopped giving money to Blair, broke with New Labour and created a new party able to represent the interests of their members.

Who are the Socialist Party?

The Socialist Party (formerly Militant) is a campaigning socialist organisation made up of trade unionists and young people from all communities.

During this dispute our members in other unions have been actively developing support and raising finance for the postal strikers.

Our members on the NIPSA Executive moved the motion calling for a £20,000 donation.

Our members in the leadership of the Fire Brigades Union have also taken the issue up with their members who are now about to ballot for strike action over pensions.

We believe that workers need to fight back through their unions but also need to fight politically. That is why we are appealing to postal workers to join us and carry on the struggle politically as well as industrially.

Join us now

by Jon Fri Feb 17, 2006 17:40

Striking Belfast postal workers have called an end to two weeks of unofficial industrial action.

The Communication Workers Union confirmed its members had voted to return to work after an agreement was reached with Royal Mail.

more info@ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/472...6.stm

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=173094256&p...9496z

by Davy Carlin Thu Feb 16, 2006 20:18

Again all - Refer to 'Dear oh Dear Oh Dear, post

Briefly, on Dairy, don’t check comments - but will check into that.

On the rest well most of your points, AGAIN, contradict themselves just by simply trawling through Indy media, as activists would know

While others are simply, a last grasp for, sheer, revisionism

On book - Ain’t what the book is primarily about - need to check your facts a bit more BK

but - indeed, most, most, definitely you will be kept out of it.

I agree on one point – yep - I am well and truly done - also,

For all, refer back to all those points and all those unanswered facts in post ‘Dear oh Dear oh Dear’ - .

Good to see you back, again, into activity BK. - interesting debate - real eye opener, in some regards.

Away for good –

Which of course will give those more timid SWP a chance to vent there stuff.

Also, well and truely done.

Nothing has changed

Sigh!

Signed of – and away D

by BK Thu Feb 16, 2006 19:40

unwilling:

thanks for the breath of fresh air. you're right that lots of this was a waste of time but its hard to back out in the face of bald sectarianism and lies. i thought gorretti's report was an interesting and positive contribution useful to genuine activists. i don't understand why it provoked the reaction that it did, and i mean that honestly. i regret that the strike hasn't yet spread to derry, and i don't know the close details of why that is, but i would never gloat over that weakness, as pat seems to in a number of posts.

davy: if it is true that all the swp ever does with your writing is 'attack, attack, attack,' why is it that so far as i can tell there is not a single comment EVER entered in response to your online diary by ANYONE? i have spent more time out here the past three days or so than i ever have over my whole life, and i don't plan on doing it anytime again soon, but i have to say that checking in every week or so previously, i've never EVER seen anyone respond at all to your repeated revelations about how horrible the swp is. so far as i can tell, you are completely ignored. that's what i meant about people having the good sense in not 'stooping to your level of debate.'

before you go off writing your next diary entry, you might want to check your 'secure' archives for november 2004. in them you'll find an e-mal from me. if i am such a god dam swp hack why is it that after reading one of your entries in the blanket i wrote you complaining about your 'exaggerating your personal role in various activities [and] speaking about the SWP itself in inflated terms, as if was a mass party leading massive confrontations with the state, [and] posting things on the internet that listed by name comrades involved in things like unofficial strike action.'

if i was the hack that you've tried to make out, wouldn't i have instead urged you on to inflate the role of the swp even more, to claim even more great triumphs for the vanguard?

about your book, i thought it was an interesting idea at first, and to the best of my recollection even gave you a used pc, monitor to write it on. but once the war on iraq was underway i thought it a strange thing to be writing a book about the triumphs of the tiny left in belfast, and told you so. i wrote at the time that "I’m not sure what your life story will consist of when it is published—I would think it would be hard to finish one at a time when a genocidal war is raging in Iraq and when we are facing another four years of George Bush (where’s the happy ending?) but if you do [decide to write it] , please keep my name out of it [as i could] not honestly abide the self-promoting spin that you seem to put on so much of the activity we’ve been involved in over the past four or five years."

about me flogging sw: i've been the most lapsed sw seller in recent history, i'm sure, and haven't 'flogged' it anywhere in years until the rally earlier this week. maybe its a vision problem davy.

i am well and truly done with this thread, and with indymedia, for a while. again, sorry to all the bystanders sucked into such a mess. see you on the picket line.

by A Thu Feb 16, 2006 19:28

Hi B , good to see you on thread.

by A Thu Feb 16, 2006 19:26

Good to see you on thread

by pat c Thu Feb 16, 2006 18:44

you really should grow, your rants are not doing the swp any favours.

despite all your raving and the posturing by goretti the fact remains that the derry postal workers have not taken solidarity action. therefore the bbc piece was right and goretti was wrong.

i wish the derry workers would take solidarity action but wishing something is not the same as acheiving it.

people have a right to disagree with swp. and they will do so. accept it. live with it.

i think this is an important dispute but some people are blowing it out of all proportion. now thats my opinion. it may not be the swp line. but we are not all robots.

by Davy Carlin Thu Feb 16, 2006 18:11

Well BK you have just re – enforced that that I had already re - enforced, and proved further my points.

Indeed I have long said when sectarians are pushed into a corner and when they have no come back, they then but strike out with, attack attack attack.

Indeed it tis so simple really, and all I have – had – to do, was to sit back, wait, and let you confirm my points in there entirety.

As I knew you would and have done.

Dishonesty BK – Well - indeed, I refer you back, in its entirety to my.’ Dear oh Dear oh Dear post’, as all still stands – despite attempts to direct attention elsewhere

- more especially given that youse went of on that initial sectarian rant – as I knew you would, as there was little else you could have done, {within that immediate mindset} given what I had said,

{Now you have been forced to calm down}

Even putting aside your contradiction, as stated, and your dishonesty, {indeed you have been and are a key activist and speaker for the SWP – indeed I believe that you have spoke at more recent SWP advertised public meetings than any other members of the local SWP}

You Quote – ‘i tried to get hold of a placard but they were taken. I did hand out copies of the excellent pull-out they produced on spreading the strike, along with the paper,

Simply Classic BK – as I see you flogging Socialist Worker all the time at events you attend.

BK Quote - ‘to the best of my recollection i have never spoken anywhere billed as an 'international socialist’

Well lets refresh yee, what about as an ‘US Socialist’ or as ‘SWP’?

Indeed I will hoke out an SWP meeting poster of BK SWP, if I find the time, as my stuff is boxed and secured, as stated..

Indeed I would lend you a shovel Bk to let you keep digging - but you are of little consequence to me -, now, given as what I have already said in previous post.

Hi Gorretti,

Well putting aside that you went also for the attack, rather than debate, I would suggest though in future that you will find more respect if you actually engage when I am online, rather than waiting until I sign of.

Indeed the e-mails, contacts etc, flying through the SWP and indeed your own sending of e-mails to networks, at the time, showed not only people online but also the level of interest in this thread.

But tis of little surprise given that another leading SWP member did the very same on another thread a few months back – and other activists had to call him on it.

Frankly this has been as predicable as all previous ones. I answer all points raised, link it to or can link it to that to prove my points, the SWP then come back,and attack attack attack., to try and direct away from the issues I raise.

Frankly, if one is honest, it has also become quite boring and so unchallenging for oneself now, as they are so predicable.- and as stated, as shown, no change - this even after giving them a few days to think about their actions.

I’ll end there – and will only come back with my link.

Just to say though, {re - dairy} - that I will make a few brief remarks re - this and the bigger picture re - SWP, as this has been so predicable in one sense, but an eye opener in another regard.

It will also include postal worker stuff – organise! etc..

Will link Dairy in several days, as am away for a while.

That's will be my end. - as all is said and done - and I am just repeating myself

Refer all future points, to 'Dear oh Dear Oh Dear 'post above.

Indeed, as stated, Freedom of Speech is such a wonderful thing -

ATB - D.

by the unwilling Thu Feb 16, 2006 18:08

I don't care one way or another about the SWP. There I've said it. I've no need to repeat it forever for fear that the whole world hasn't seen it. Mr Carlin should get over his obsession with his erstwhile comrades. I have yet to see one thing he has written in the last year that doesn't go on to include some "expose" on the SWP. "Me - on the outside" - Don't ever hide behind a pseudonym for yourself and then name other people as being in left wing parties particularly given that you are obviously aware that the person you named is a government worker!!! That was a shocking thing to do.

Anyway, What I really care about is the workers who will be starved back to work unless support and solidarity is built for them across the north, the south and across the water.

For others who claim to care so much about the postal workers I can see not one shred of evidence of that here. For people to break their necks to reply to every twist and turn of the sectarian crap while workers are standing on picket lines in the freezing cold without pay for the third week is a disgrace. How would you feel if you knew that posties were reading this rubbish? Proud of yourselves? What the posties need is help from their class not infantile bullshit like this.

Can people please make suggestions regarding organising support. My first suggestion is that everyone who has had infinite time to contribute to this thread so far should use that time to collect money and messages of support from their union branches, estates, colleges etc and report here on how that went!! So should every one else who wants to see the strikers win.

People should write letters to the papers to counter the undoubted BIAS of the media in favour of the bosses. It has been appalling!!!!

More ideas from people would be a good way to begin to reverse this so far awful thread.

by BK Thu Feb 16, 2006 17:43

what strike report?

this one.

first:

"The reports on the BBC that postal workers in Derry will "under no circumstances" join their colleagues in Belfast are premature, to say the least. There are historical divisions between CWU branches East and West of the Bann, so that solidarity across the North can be difficult to get. But the truth is that the workers in Derry have yet to hear the truth about the dispute from the Belfast strikers.

Such are the hoops that Thatcher's anti-union laws force workers to go through these days, there has been no meeting in Derry's sorting office to discuss solidarity action. Attempts by the strikers to get a meeting down here came to nothing as the local rep. is so afraid of falling foul of the anti-union laws that he will not facilitate it.

As a result, local socialists have had to step in at the strikers' request and organise a meeting at which they can address their fellow workers in Derry. So, tomorrow afternoon, as postal workers end their shift, Belfast strikers will be in Derry for the first time putting their case and asking for solidarity action.

BTW, the BBC has already had to issue one retraction in relation to the management lies they have carried - the allegation that car registrations were being collected by the worker whose disciplining was the straw that broke the camel's back and led to the walk-out. In fact, he was only doing what all workers are advised to do by their unions when faced with a bullying manager - noting every incident of bullying. There WERE no car registrations but by putting that about, management managed to make it sound like there was paramilitary involvement.

Just one more example of why - especially when it comes to workers in struggle - we should NEVER believe what we hear in the mainstream media."

mildly overstated at the end, but not by much. i've already commented out here about the lurid coverage of the strike, and anyone else in blefast can attest to the way this strike has been carried in the press and on air. in any case, hardly a rant, pat.

and then gorretti followed up:

"... the truth is most of the communication between the Belfast strikers and Derry posties has been through Eamonn McCann and SWPers generally. Some of this is down to the fears, outlined above that all in the union have, of being seen to be "inciting" unofficial action. This is one of the reasons why it was SWP members who leafleted the East Belfast Distribution Office this morning [which did cause a walk out of about 25 workers I hear].

So, some of the rank and file workers in the Derry sorting office have been asking their union rep to organise a meeting and he told them that once the union in Belfast got in touch to request it, he would facilitate it [ this means, he would allow the meeting to be held in the Post Office Social Club which is just across the road from the sorting office on Gt. James St.] This was the message that Eamonn McCann was passing on yesterday.

However, it turns out that he was only saying this to take pressure off himself in Derry because when he was contacted by Belfast union reps, he refused to do anything until the strike was made official.

It's hard to know whether a walk out is possible in Derry or not. They have walked out themselves on several occasions over the last 2-3 years over bullying management, but have usually been persuaded back to work within 24 or 36 hours. So, the issue will be one that resonates - it's not just a Belfast problem. In fact, there have been wildcat strikes in Royal Mail offices in Oxford, London and elsewhere about the exact same issue. The problem is that the Derry workers are getting the official union line and the management line but have not yet heard what the dispute is really all about.

Anyone who thinks that this is not a really important dispute for all workers in the North of Ireland might think again when they hear that Royal Mail have drafted in 50 managers from Britain to try to break the strike."

again, where's the rant? out of all of this, a detailed and unhyped report on a key weakness in the strike which genuine activists wondering about the situation in derry would have appreciated, you focused on the throwaway comment about bbc and the media's attitude to strikes.

apologies to others who have had to labour through this nasty exchange, but to my mind the only explanation for why you could have reacted with such vitriol and defensiveness to these comments is pure sectarianism, pat. maybe an swp schoolkid stole your lunch when you were young or something. i hope for your own sake you can get over it someday.

by pat c Thu Feb 16, 2006 16:25

"i would have been disgusted by the sectarian response to gorrettis' strike report"

what strike report? goretti gave a rant because i dared to publish some info from the bbc. whether that info was correct or not is still in question. afaiaa the derry postal workers havent taken solidarity action. but that piece of reality must not be allowed to over ride the swp position that they should have. if the swp say they should have then they must have. red derry always obey eamon & goretti. end of story.

you have studied well at the stalinist school of falsification. you are qualified for re-entry to the swp.

i still think this is an important dispute, but not the historic one that some are making it out to be. i doubt if it will be remembered in 70 yrs time like the oudoor relief riots were, a time when the ira & b specials co-operated.

by BK Thu Feb 16, 2006 16:14

me:

yea, the thread has exhausted itself, or moved over, and we are agreed at least on the significance of the strike.

just to put you right on a minor item, though, me: i didn't carry an swp banner at the rally. i tried to get hold of a placard but they were taken. i did hand out copies of the excellent pull-out they produced on spreading the strike, along with the paper, and marched with a nipsa crowd, a minority of whom are in swp. i have spoken at swp meetings, and hopefully will do so again in the future, but never under false label. to the best of my recollection i have never spoken anywhere billed as an 'international socialist,' though i am proud to be one. so perhaps the intrigue that you imagine to be there simply doesn't exist, me.

i was reluctant to say anything about whether i was in swp on this thread because, to be honest, i didn't think it mattered. i would have been disgusted by the sectarian response to gorrettis' strike report, and to davy's incredible dishonesty, regardless of whether i was a member or had never even heard of the swp.

by me - on the outside Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:48

I was there for the most part of it, however due to cover at work was unable to stay for most of the speeches I left when the guy from PUP got on stage, even at its peak i would have esimated only around 800, i have seen much much more, I do not believe it is a local dispute with one union, it is a dispute that is important for many reasons, reasons that i believe that it is important, it sends a clear message to all employers that workers today will not accept this type of treatment, big or small, treat your employees good. keep them happy.

I only assume that you are in the SWP as, you where with them at the rally you carried one of their banners, you speak at their meetings, being classed as an international socialist, which the swp always get their own members to speak at meeting stating they are from something else, (Ryan McKinney Uncivil Servant, Davy Carlin Chair of ARn etc etc thats when Davy was still apart of SWP)

I am now finish with this thread, however i just wanted to let you know BK, that I made the assumption based on facts that i have in front of me.

and without me it could have only been 799

by BK Wed Feb 15, 2006 21:38

me-outside:

i wrote above about some on this list who 'haven't any real interest in pushing the postal strike forward, but are only concerned with scoring cheap political points.' i wasn't lumping your comments in with the earlier thread, and am glad you were out yesterday, as without you there would only have been 999 people on the rally. ; )

by BK Wed Feb 15, 2006 19:19

#1: Davy asserted, and Pat, anarcho, and now ME have assumed that I am a member of the SWP, and that that explained why I reacted against the attack on Gorretti's post in the way that I did.

pat: 'I would be obliged if BK or any other member of the SWP would point out ...etc.'
davy: 'what we have seen here is an SWP member...who had never before raised...blah blah blah...'
anarcho: 'If you cannot take on the points then SWP always always turn to attacks...etc.'

The problem wiith all of this sectarian logic is that that is not true. I have been outside the SWP for longer than Davy has (and he knows that): the difference is that I will have no truck with the sectarian venom directed against them by people who haven't any real interest in pushing the postal strike forward, but are only concerned with scoring cheap political points. The SWP have done excellent work around the strike, and i am strongly considering rejoining.

#2: ME - the outside:

I certainly haven't been trained to lie about numbers, and there may in fact have been 1200 people there at the peak of the rally rather than 1000. I'm not sure when you arrived, but I marched down Royal Avenue to City Hall, and the contingent still stretched well past Tesco's as the front of the rally landed, and it was pretty densely packed across the street. Numbers dwindled later, but I think its probably fair to call it at 1000.

I could possibly be offf on the numbers, but not because i've intentionally inflated them. Pat's 'reliable' BBC puts it at 'several hundred.' UTV calls it 'more than 800.' Daily Ireland calls it '800 postal workers', and the Newsletter calls it the same way, but neither mentions supporters. The Telegraph doesn't even mention the rally. The newest report on the march on Indymedia, from Organise, arrives at the same figure as I do.

let me ask you a simple and unloaded question, though, and one more important in terms of what is going on here than an argument about numbers. do you agree that the postal strike is merely 'a march about a local dispute concerning one union in belfast,' or does it have some wider significance fpor the potential of breaking the sectarian logjam here, defending the public sector, taking on the anti-union laws upheld by new labour, asserting the interests of working-class people in the north?

by ME - the outside Wed Feb 15, 2006 15:48

I have read this thread over the last few days and find it incredibly stupid and gone so far off the point. I attended the rally yesterday outside city hall in Belfast, but I didn't count the 1000 that BK did, nowhere near that amount maybe 700. Maybe Davy is not the only one to over estimate numbers, maybe its drummed into you to add an extra few hundred when you join the SWP.

Before you start BK, I have no beef with the SWP, I couldn't care less what they do, they don't register with me.

The issue with the postal workers was one of Bullying and harassment from managers, all that I have seen from the SWP is bullying and Harassment to anyone that opposes them or challenges them.

you should have listen yesterday. bullying and harrassment is not accepted anymore.

by pat c Wed Feb 15, 2006 15:38

you are just an embarrassment to the SWP, I suggest you stop digging. a march of 1,000 people over a local one union dispute is not a historic event of any sort. i think the organise comrade also overegged it.

criticism is not sectarianism.

i take it you have nothing further to report on derry. or is one evil cwu official still stopping anyone from meeting the derry worrkers?

i also presume you accept that it was you who introduced the cartoons into this storyline.

as for goretti, yes, people can make their own minds up.

by BK Wed Feb 15, 2006 15:02

pat c.

yet another embarrassing example of your sectarian obsession

how does my
"one of the most important trade union demonstrations in recent history,"
get regurgitated by you as
"the most important trade union demonstration in recent history."?????

answers on a postcard please. delivery in and around belfast may be delayed on account of unofficial strike action.

you: "gorettis whole statement was over the top in tone and content."
me: i hope readers will scroll back and make their minds up on that themselves. any genuine activists among them will come up with the right answer on who's been over the top.

you: '[BK has] no sense of proportiion. this was a march about a local dispute concerning one union in belfast.'
me: if that is your take, then your beef is not only with me, but with the individual from organize! who posted the piece that started off this thread. it reads:

'While [the posties march up the Falls and Shankill] is not, as one speaker claimed, the first time the Shankill and Falls have marched together in an act of working class solidarity since the outdoor relief strike of 1932* (the firefighters held a similar march to the Springfield Road fire station during their 2002-03 dispute) it is significant none-the-less.

by pat c Wed Feb 15, 2006 13:44

"pat c.

you know very well that my charge that you, davy, anarcho were engaged in sectarian carping throughout this thread had to do with the way you ignored 95% of gorretti's report on the postal strike (which this thread is ABOUT, after all) to focus on a minor overstatement of hers on the media, all in a frenzied attempt to drag down the swp. "

no. gorettis whole statement was over the top in tone and content.
no attack as such was made on the swp. note i mentioned articles by eamon mccann & kieran allen.

"if you want a discussion on religion, islamophobia, and the cartoon controversy, pat, start another thread."

you were the one who brought the cartoons on to this thread. its there in black & white. all readers have to do is scroll back up.

" i think you're dead wrong on all of this, but at least i've had the decency throughout to try to relate the discussion to what was happening with the postal strike"

well tell us whats happening in derry? have they voted to support the belfast workers or they refused to take action (in which case the bbc would be correct). i wish the derry workers had supported the belfast strikers but there is no point in shooting the messenger. eamon mccann & goretti have been unable to rouse red derry.

." a sign of how relevant indymedia is to working-class struggle in this country is that 24 hours after one of the most important trade union demonstrations in recent history,"

you have no sense of proportiion. this was a march about a local dispute concerning one union in belfast. if you think indy is irrelevant then why do you podt here?

"for those who missed it, the solidarity march yesterday was brilliant, with better than a thousand people out in support at the height of the demonstration,"

i'm glad to see a good turnout but 1,000 is not "the most important trade union demonstration in recent history".

", including a rep from dublin postal workers, the fbu, nipsa, and mccann from the derry trades council. virtually every speaker denounced the distorted coverage of the strike by the press and broadcast media, "

did mccann comment on why the derry postal workers were not taking support action?

by BK Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:56

pat c.

you know very well that my charge that you, davy, anarcho were engaged in sectarian carping throughout this thread had to do with the way you ignored 95% of gorretti's report on the postal strike (which this thread is ABOUT, after all) to focus on a minor overstatement of hers on the media, all in a frenzied attempt to drag down the swp. in davy's case, the sectarianism is compounded by an inability to distinguish truth from fiction, incurable in his case i'm afraid.

if you want a discussion on religion, islamophobia, and the cartoon controversy, pat, start another thread. i think you're dead wrong on all of this, but at least i've had the decency throughout to try to relate the discussion to what was happening with the postal strike. a sign of how relevant indymedia is to working-class struggle in this country is that 24 hours after one of the most important trade union demonstrations in recent history, there is nothing out here about it, and not a word from any of the anti-swp chorus on it.

for those who missed it, the solidarity march yesterday was brilliant, with better than a thousand people out in support at the height of the demonstration, and with a huge boost in financial and other support from other public sector workers, including a rep from dublin postal workers, the fbu, nipsa, and mccann from the derry trades council. virtually every speaker denounced the distorted coverage of the strike by the press and broadcast media, and the possibilities for extending the strike out of belfast are there to be seized upon if the strikers take the initiative. a great day, and an important strike that is widely supported among working-class people and which is there to be won in the days ahead.

by A Wed Feb 15, 2006 08:52

Davy is probably talking about past threads Gorretti, where you made similar 'astounding' statements. Trawl through to find

by Joe Tue Feb 14, 2006 20:15

Goretti I rather suspect that Pat would be happy defending muslim people just as 'we defended Catholic people in the North'. It is the confusion of defending people who happen to be of a particular religous background with defending religion be it islam or christianity he is objecting to.

This confusion is very evident in the sentence "Islamophobia that our rulers are promoting". Which rulers are you referring to? Both Bush and Blair have gone out of their way to praise islam and bring the bishops (woops mullahs) on board. The country they invaded was one of the most secular in the middle east - if it was islam they were declaring war on then Saudi would have been the logical target. And the continuing occupations has seen religious parties being put into power - Iraq is considerably more islamic than it was before the occupation.

So why does the SWP confuse an attack on people who happen to be (mostly*) muslin with an attack on islam? Isn't this just playing to the 'clash of civilisations' crowd?

For what its worth it is clearly Pat who has stood still and the SWP position that has radically changed over time.

---
* its often forgotten that most of the middle east are not simply muslim countries but countries with muslim majorities and non muslim minorities. The US may have a lot of 'smart' bombs but none so far that can tell the difference between a muslim Iraqi, a christian Iraqi or indeed an athiest Iraqi from one or the other background.

by pat c Tue Feb 14, 2006 20:14

i havent changed anything, i still oppose all religions. if the cartholic church was forcing women to wear hijabs i'd oppose it. if the catholic church wanted to ban the life of brian i'd oppose that just as i oppose the mullahs controlling the press.

the democratic freedoms we have under capitalism are few, they are precious. i am not going to let a bunch of islamic fanatics decide what can be published. no more than i'd let catholic fanatics decide.

no, its you that has changed, you bow down before islam in a way you never would have towards catholicism.

Tariq Ali, an "islamic atheist" will speak in dublin 2moro nite. he doesnt think the cartoons should be banned . you might consider as to how your attitude towards islam is helping those who have to fight it in islamic countries.

by Goretti - SWP Tue Feb 14, 2006 19:55

I'm really glad that I decided to check back to see if either you or Davy had responded - although I am quite annoyed to find that, as so often, anything posted here by someone from the SWP tends to be ignored and whatever gripe the individual posting has with us at that time pursued instead!

Pat C. If you are who I think you are, there was a time when you would have understood that to suggest someone who lives in Derry or Belfast is sectarian would have implied that they are anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant - which is why I qualified the point about sectarianism. But you are obviously obsessed now by the SWP's opposition to Islamophobia. Of course we are against the Mullahs, just as we have always been against the Bishops. But, just as we defended Catholic people in the North against the sectarian state here, we will defend Muslim people against the Islamophobia that our rulers are promoting. I haven't changed my position since I used to know you in Dublin. You seem to have changed yours considerably.

I'm off now to a meeting on the Frankenstein Directive, so goodbye.

by pat c Tue Feb 14, 2006 19:43

"But really, surely we have better things to be concerned about than somewhat imprecise use of language!"

perhaps you would pass those sentiments on to BK.

as for religious sectarianism, i am puzzled. is it sectarian now to criticise religion?

i remember the days when you would have stood up to mullahs, priests and ministers in defence of womens rights. now the swp hold pro hijab demos.

by Goretti - SWP Tue Feb 14, 2006 18:02

Dear god, some of you seem to spend far too much of your time on Indymedia! I have been in Cork at my mother's 85th birthday last few days and had no access to a computer so did not see any of the controversy that my hasty posting had caused until I returned and someone told me that I was accused by Davy and Pat C. of making some astounding statements. In his last post, Davy says: “Indeed Gorretti has made a number of quite astounding statements on Indymedia in which I have said so and like others had asked simply for clarification. I see, and most here, would see no problem in asking for such, indeed that is what Indymedia is about.”

I have read through all the postings here and the only “astounding statement” I made, or am accused of making, it turns out, is when I said in relation to the postal workers strike: “Just one more example of why - especially when it comes to workers in struggle - we should NEVER believe what we hear in the mainstream media.”

Had I had known earlier, I would happily have cut all this ferment short and held my hands up to say I WAS WRONG to say NEVER believe ANYTHING you read in the mainstream media because, as others have pointed out, occasionally some left-wing people do get to write in the mainstream media. I was in a rush to get away and was not careful enough about my language, thinking I was writing among people where we are all on the same side.

I would say to anyone reading the above diatribes to decide for yourselves who is being sectarian [in the political, not religious sense] here.

And, again, I agree that I should have said something like “when it comes to daily reporting on strikes, I would say be extremely cynical of what you read in the mainstream media”. But really, surely we have better things to be concerned about than somewhat imprecise use of language!

by Davy Carlin Mon Feb 13, 2006 19:11

Chiiillllllllllll

Well I was not going to update my dairy for a while, but will do a brief one soon re- activism, joining Organise! etc. I was also going to raise issues concerning the SWP, with seeing again further SWP ‘attacks’ and accusations including as above.

But I am not going to bite.

Indeed what we have seen here is an SWP member {who I have known since not long after joining the SWP} who had never before raised on sites or to me in person any of his now points until years later.

A person who reads my stuff, who had offered help on my book, and who also knew that I had publicly stated recently that that past was ‘boxed’ both in real terms, and hopefully in regard to now working with various SWP members.

But then choose now to raise various issues.

Nevertheless, I replied to his post and his points raised, and re - FB,– Anti War -again refer to my already given response.

However he replied back with an attempted ‘kick in balls’ re - ‘Professional Sectarian’, ‘Sectarian’, 'stoop down low’ etc, Yet that day had seen myself, himself, and other SWP members for the first time standing in unity on a new issue, the first since I had left the SWP. Not only that, but also engaging and sharing mikes, with even some fraternal chat with some etc.

Yet, after that, he then posted something, so in your face, that it obviously would have drawn two responses.

Firstly other SWP ers ‘would come to his defence’ by attempting to further attack me. That then would have lead to me replying to those attacks’ and most likely therefore seen the dismantlement of that timid re - engagement.

Yet having known that person for many years, and taking, everything, into account - I though will not, therefore bite to his most recent rant – in my online dairy.

I will but give brief replies though, for any new readers here in regard to accusations.

I say though for starters, I have found, that such posts do give activists a real insight into not only what the organisation as a whole is disseminating - but also a good insight into individuals.

I suppose that is why many such fear the likes of Indymedia.

On ‘Political Sectarianism, I have actively fought against that tooth and nail over the years, both vocally and in practice and indeed it was one of the reasons, as stated, for leaving the Belfast SWP as it had started to emerge. Indeed it is the SWP that is well known for it, this the length and breath of the movement and that is why many will not work with them, in real terms.

I will simply let my activism, and support Networks, on that issue speak for its self.

On ‘stoop down low’. Well the reality is, that the reason that the SWP do not engage, is not through lack of trying, as on many occasions they do try, but when I put the facts – untangle their waffle, or cut through their attempted revisionism – they then back of.

It is as simple as that, as has been proven in fact.

Indeed not only do I have my diaries over the years of activism but have all correspondence, written – email etc and so can and do cut through such like a hot knife through butter. The reason that they do not continue the debate, as I have said time and again, is that I can link or provide the facts for whatever I state, and thus cut through all various, if it has to be the case.

As for raising points re - Gorretti.

Indymedia is for debate and discussion.

And so -

If a point is made that is, as people believe, ridiculous or amazing then I, as will others, say such. You see BK, there is no censorship here on Indymedia – and if you have problems with questions then simply don’t engage.

Indeed I have no fear of engagement, as proven, – as even in the light, as stated, that you had raised your initial remarks – I still though provided you, at least, with a reply.

The light though that you had risen your second remarks in, well, I have made a decision not to bite.

On that ‘amazing statement – well, for me, that further confirms another point some SWPers have issue with, and that is the point I have raised previous about similar ridiculous and amazing ‘orders’ given by the leadership{s} to Irish comrades at times.

Indeed Gorretti has made a number of quite astounding statements on Indymedia in which I have said so and like others had asked simply for clarification. I see, and most here, would see no problem in asking for such, indeed that is what Indymedia is about.

And therein BK lays your contradiction, while you say you will not sit back and will speak you mind {and I say fair play to you} if there are points you seek further clarification on or have issue or disagreement with.

You though on the other hand have problems with others doing exactly the same thing, as shown, when it comes to others asking for similar clarification on a point that they find issue or disagree with, only though if in relation to an SWP member.

You cannot have it both ways BK.

Therein that completely reinforces and proves the point that activists say, and wherein lays the problem for some within the SWP with Indymedia. That is, that they are fearful of that that they cannot control and ‘hate’ that, where they are not able to decide what can and cannot be said.

On ego and individualism – well I write both about campaigns and secondly also I write an online dairy about my activism. Therefore it should be of no surprise that being an activist online dairy, of my activism, then of course it will be individualised.

Quite simple really..

Freedom of speech is such a wonderful thing,

Secondly I write such at the time, and offer debate and engagement about it for many months after – thus offering all the chance to raise whatever they want. Indeed in the last month there has been no less than three attempts but, with links etc, well it can be shown up for what it is.

Briefly on me being non political! – well that’s another useful insight of an internal mindset – that will be of use in time.

On the SWP being at fore front of postal dispute?

Not to sure what you mean. But the postal dispute is organised by the postal workers, with all the different shades on left offering similar solidarity.

Although there is one thing, in regard to that that I had seen a day or two ago that showed me how little the leadership has changed. A leadership member was up from Dublin to lend solidarity and while I had briefly looked at that person who was close beside me – all of a sudden I had seen in their face a look of almost blind panic, which actually startled me. I then looked at the direction in which they where looking and I saw a number of CWU reps {one of whom I know} standing with leading trade union figures from NIPSA and FBU and who where SP members.

And with that this PC member ‘ordered’ a very leading local member of the SWP to go over to find out what was happening - any decisions being made etc – and to make sure to get their face seen etc’.

I just shook my head – little had changed. Indeed it has completely reversed - as it was in the latter years that {the odd one} in the SP who had had that very startled look when they had seen me approaching to such events– now the SP just seemed chilled with it all while giving solidarity, as the Belfast SWP had been at one time.

With certain looks on the faces of some SWP I though had seen almost desperation for them to be as much involved, to an extent that it was picked up on, by many, including key figures. This and other things I may go into in time. In the meantime, as stated, support needs to be stepped up for the postal workers.

BK – I have now got a real eye opener here – but, again, of little surprise

My problem , as always stated, is not with many individual members, and hope to work with them on essential issues in the future -

I’ve answered all points, now, – most definitely signing off, whatever the case.

ATB D

PS – I leave activist’s to see, yet again, for them selves, in real terms, where the ‘abuse’ ‘Rants’ and ‘Sectarianism’ comes from – and indeed your engagement has completely re - enforced that that many activists had already known,

Indeed you could not have did a better job- if you had of tried

Therefore to activists, I say absolutely no change - as has been shown .

Sigh!

ATB D

by pat c Mon Feb 13, 2006 18:23

". As you've now said that you trust BBC more than SW then there is no point in taking this any further. "

i certainly do. the way your party line changes its difficult to keep up. much better to rely on the BBC. they only get it wrong occasionally.

"I find this incredible even for a dyed-in-the-wool sectarian, but perhaps it is to be expected as it derives instead from a right-wing troll and an apologist for Islamophobia. Even worse bedfellows than I suspected."

so because i stand up for womens rights, gayrights and democratic rights i am rightwing and a troll and islamophobic.

i dont fear islam, i hate it. i hate the way it treats women. from anearly age girls are forced to wear a headscarf to hammer home the message that they are inferior. where they can muslims operate the sharia where gays and adulterous women are executed. Is that the SWPs idea of a better society?

yes i hate islam and i hate catholicism. after fighting the catholic church for so long i wont roll over for the mullahs. unfortunately the swp have done so.

there was a time when the SWP would have stood up to such religious obscurantism but sadly that day seems to have passed.

"'Post has been disrupted in north, south and west Belfast but an attempt to widen the strike to Londonderry failed _because of a lack of support for the Belfast workers_.'

This is from the same 'latest' that you challenge the SWP to find any 'anti-worker bias' in. Thick, or just blinded by sectarianism? Which is it Pat? "

well is there support for the belfast workers in derry or isnt there? if there was you'd think it would have materialised by now. is the statement accurate?

no not thick. and i think you are one who suffers from sectarianism. just consider that your leaders might be misleading you.

"I'll take Gorrettti's overstatement any day over your muddle."

so you believe that we should scorn articles by KA in the capoitalist media?

" And stop crying to Indymedia to spare you form having to defend your assertions."

i am merely pointing out to you that you have an abusive style. you could end up being deleted.

"End of story."

hopefully. i've had enough of you.

by BK Mon Feb 13, 2006 17:37

Pat:

I'll leave it up to readers to look back on your response to Gorretti and see if I haven't represented it accurately. As you've now said that you trust BBC more than SW then there is no point in taking this any further. I find this incredible even for a dyed-in-the-wool sectarian, but perhaps it is to be expected as it derives instead from a right-wing troll and an apologist for Islamophobia. Even worse bedfellows than I suspected.

Incidentally, in your cut-and-paste eulogy to BBC, you omitted the section I posted previously, which reads:

'Post has been disrupted in north, south and west Belfast but an attempt to widen the strike to Londonderry failed _because of a lack of support for the Belfast workers_.'

This is from the same 'latest' that you challenge the SWP to find any 'anti-worker bias' in. Thick, or just blinded by sectarianism? Which is it Pat? I'll take Gorrettti's overstatement any day over your muddle. And stop crying to Indymedia to spare you form having to defend your assertions.

End of story.

by pat c Mon Feb 13, 2006 17:20

"Peter Donaghy, a member of the CWU's national executive, said the union was "very disappointed" that the strike had not been resolved, adding that it was an issue which should be sorted out locally.

Mr Donaghy said employees wanted an independent review to address their concerns.

"What they (Royal Mail) are being asked for is a standard thing, standard practice, nothing unusual in terms of how to bring these disputes to an end," he said.

"It has been done in various parts of the United Kingdom... I don't understand why Royal Mail are refusing to have an independent review."

Industrial action began over difficulties between staff and management over disciplinary procedures and other issues in the north Belfast section. "

This is the latest from the BBC I would be obliged if BK or anyother member of the SWP would point out the Anti Worker parts of it.

by pat c Mon Feb 13, 2006 17:15

If all you can do is rage and sling abuse then you would be better off staying away from Indymedia because you are not doing the SWP any favours. It wasnt one line by Goretti it was an entire rant.

Goretti said that we should never believe what we read in the capitalist media about workers disputes. i repeat: does that mean that we should doubt articles by Eamon McCann and Kieran Allen if they appear in the capitalist press? Are the SWP taring all NUJ members with the one brush?

Wouldnt that be anti worker?

just because i disagree with your analysis it doesnt make my comments a sectarian smear. unless you think your opinions are those of the prophet. the bbc gets it wrong on occasion but in general i believe what i read there. i'd trust more than i would SW.

as for the cartoons, you are a bit behind the times: the pig cartoons were a fake likely carried out by muslim clerics. the 12 cartoons were published in an egyptian paper in 0ct 05 during ramadan, there were no riots. makes me think that these riots are being stirred up by islamic fundamentalists.

btw your post above is abusive i wouldnt be suprised if it was deleted.

by BK Mon Feb 13, 2006 17:03

Pat:

Another big swing and a miss on your part, and more evidence that you can't step away from the sectarian mud-slinging.

In your zeal and pomposity, you focused on a minor, fairly trivial, throwaway line in the much longer, excellent report Gorretti provided about the state of the strike, the problems in relation to spreading it, the possibilities for winning. You overlooked all of that to seize on something she wrote about the bias of the bourgeois/corporate/ruling class press (what you call the 'ordinary media') in relation to strikes. As I've noted, no one with a clue about how this strike has been covered from all sides, and from the broadcast media here, would question that basic assertion. If anything, its among the most distorted strike coverage I've ever witnessed. But you think the point worth fighting over. AND YOU'RE DEAD WRONG. I showed you the quote, directly off of your 'unbiased' BBC, and you have not a word to say in defense of your earlier position, only more sectarian smear. Nice bedfellows you've found yourself Davy.

You don't have to subscribe to a conspiratorial view of the way the world works, Pat, to understand the links between the corporate media and their biased coverage (concrete examples of which I've cited) of strikes, the war in Iraq, the controversy over the ani-Muslim cartoons, the conflict in the North. You only need a fairly basic understanding of marxism, and some fundamental grasp of reality. If that's too much of a challenge for you, maybe you SHOULD stick to slinging shit on the internet.

by pat c Mon Feb 13, 2006 15:37

"Talks on Belfast post strike due to begin

13 February 2006 12:29
Talks to try to resolve the post office strike in Belfast are due to get under way in London today.

Officials from the Communications Workers Union and the Royal Mail did not meet as planned yesterday.

Workers at Tomb Street in Belfast began an unofficial strike at the end of last month, severely disrupting postal deliveries."

i would be obliged if a member of the SWP would vet the above piece for any anti worker distortions.

by pat c Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:10

goretti was right?

so we should never believe what we read in the ordinary media. the world is one big conspiracy. gee! this is the matrix! nothing is real!

we should only believe what we read in socialist worker!

will you lot ever cop yourselves on?

by DEXer Mon Feb 13, 2006 09:42

If we can take anything postive from this whole experience it would be;

1) We havent recieved any junk mail/bills/ neighbours mail/ ppl in next streets mail (delete where applicable)

2) They will a have a valid excuse for loosing my parcels this time.

3) Environmental impact - Less PO vans on road and two weeks less of those bloody awful red elastic bands they seems adamant on littering our streets in!

by BK Sun Feb 12, 2006 15:51

Dear anarcho, davy, any other assorted sectarians:

Get your heads out of your ***es and have a look at what is going on around you, for crissakes. Suspend the obsession with the SWP for a few days, just a few days, and try to contribute to winning this strike.

Both of you are anxious to prove gorretti's point about the bosses' press incorrect. pat c. tells us that bbc are generally reliable for strike coverage. here's from their latest, straight off their web-site:

'Post has been disrupted in north, south and west Belfast but an attempt to widen the strike to Londonderry failed __because of a lack of support for the Belfast workers__.'

Now EITHER you can take bbc's 'unbiased' reporting at face value, OR you can re-read gorretti's ground-level, nuanced, admittedly biased and pro-workers' account of why the strike has not yet managed to spread to derry, and of what it will require to break through.

Beyond BBC, surely anyone at all clued in to what has been happening with the strike must be conscious of how the press has, without questioning management's lurid explanations for the strike, repeated its insinuations that this is a paramilitary-inspired strike, and made a serious, consistent contribution to trying to break the magnificaent anti-sectarian sentiment on display last week on the falls and the shankill. this is is true of daily ireland, the newsletter, the telegraph, and the irish news. if you want i can provide you with the headlines and page numbers.

So on the minor point of gorretti's 'stupid' post, in your sectarian zeal all three of you completely missed her main point and focused instead, on an extremely minor aspect of what she wrote. AND SHE WAS RIGHT.

On the questions about honesty, anarcho, i await davy's response to the very simple, and un-presonal, questions about the size of the antiwar and fbu marches. and i assume that if he concedes that my numbers are correct, you will, like a principled revolutionary, retract the sectarian shite in your last post. or maybe that's expecting too much.

by Anarcho Sun Feb 12, 2006 14:12

Gorreti made a very stupid statement which as pc and davy pointed out.. she did not come back on it. What is the point that you are in the SWP because no one trusts the SWP and every reason not to. on Indymedia and other things Davy has written a lot of poilical stuff.
I would say to Davy kick the swp sectarians where it hurts.[ Stoop to the level of debate], more a case of truth hurts does'nt it. If you cannot take on the points then SWP always always turn to attacks and so cofirms everything Davy has said.
Oh the SWP are at the foredront of the posal strike that is not what the postal workers strikers think.

by activist Sat Feb 11, 2006 18:42

the swp is at the forefront of the postal worker stuff
is this not true

by BK Sat Feb 11, 2006 18:40

what the fuck does it matter whether i'm in the swp or not, davy? or do you want to join in with the professional internet sectarians out here who think all evil derives from the swp? i think you'd find a different attitude among rank-and-file postal workers, whose attitude counts for a lot more in my book.

the question is: did 1000 people march down the falls on the antiwar march or was it 400, like i said? did 400 or 200 workers march on the fbu demo across lanark way? or was it 80, counted? i only take a look out here very rarely, because it IS mostly sectarian gibberish, and i almost never come in to the discussion, but i've noticed over the past few months that you've had a lot to say about the organization you used to belong to, including a stupid, cheap shot at goretti in this thread. the thing is, no one has ever taken you up on any of it, probably because they have the good sense not to stoop to that level of 'debate,' and so you seem to think that you can say whatever you want. talk about 'revision'!

of course we can work together, as we did this afternoon. because there are important issues worth fighting around. but if i see something written about sometihng i was involved in that doesn't ring true, i will call the writer on it. that goes for you or anyone else.

by Davy Carlin Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:40

Hi BK - I Think {BK SWP} - not part of organising the March/ pessimistic etc! as for FBU similar, less numbers - bad organisation etc?

Well Brian {if BK SWP} then you have read my stuff over all over the years when I was in the SWP - now, and only now, you attempt to say such - well to late for Revisionism my friend - that is why I write at the time - to take on the arguments at the time – and to hold all such, against future attempted revisionism.

All my stuff is boxed of those then times , as stated. and there is though all the interviews I did re - building such local things, the e-mails, contacts I sent to {and got responses from} - the political parties, workplaces and local trade unionists I had personally visited locally, the shop windows and community centres I postered and visted - the stalls on the Road I had did etc etc in relation to Anti War and FBU - as many others had did similar, like yourself going door to door etc.

Others BK usually are prepared to take on the argument at the time - which I have always done as most would know.

But when one has left the party - when the party is now in a complete flux, etc, then such will grasp at straws.

Now years later - and only now you state such.

Well BK, I see it in that light - and so be it, although it is sad.

Yet had you raised such at the time then I would have had respect for a debate - if that, you felt, is what it merited. That part of my activism is boxed, although well recorded and has seen ample debate on numerous sites and in numerous articles - and I am not going over it all again – in the light that you now raise it.

It you wish though in future to debate stuff then I suggest to do it at the time, not years later when much is between that organisation and I - as it can be seen in that light of it being raised. More especially, when never before availing of the opportunity for debate if you so wanted it, especially if you had such seemingly major problems etc.

As youse know all that material is boxed and secured - but much can still be found on the Internet or trawling through papers of the time - Therefore you have of course a right to even now raise issues, but I simply refer activists to all the debates, interviews, newspaper articles over the years – and with that I simply as always let activists make up their own minds.

Whatever the case – I hope we can still work together as we always have done – and as stated, those issues will be simply linked to, as will NIPSA, ARN etc in which I offered all numerous chance for debate and discussion at the time – and people can simply judge on the merit of them..

Finally if you are not BK SWP - although I believe you are, then again I refer you to all the sites, interviews and newspapers at the time.

Again I suggest likewise if you have issues then raise them at the time, as I, for one, do and had provided ample chance for people during, and many months after to engage in debate and discussion – as activist know.

Signing off D

by BK Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:22

Davy:

While the anti-war march down the Falls was an important success, and one that was built on a lot of hard work by a small number of individuals (myself and two others, basically, who went door-to-door over about a week) you've exagerrated the numbers here. There were about 400 people on the march to the city center--not a bad turnout, but not 1000 either. In the runup to the march, as I recall, you were pessimistic about the possibility of pulling anything off at all, and were not part of the organising. I think the FBU march was not so large as you make it out to be here either, and was a bit of a disaster organisationally, important though it was. I think its important to attempt to draw lessons from the past for whatever work we're involved in at present, but it won't help if we exagerrate our successes, or our role as individuals.

by Davy Carlin - Organise! Fri Feb 10, 2006 17:01 carlindavid at hotmail dot com

Quote - 'Support groups involving postal workers, trade unionists, socialists, community activists and young people should be formed to carry out solidarity work in the communities and workplaces and to raise money for a strike fund'.

Yep, support groups I have always believed {and actively pursed} are an essential part of any campaign and Movement.

May it have been the West Belfast Fire-fighter Support group and the Falls - Shankill march, the West Belfast Anti War Group - which seen a 1000 strong march down the Falls Road against the war on the Iraq, or the still West Belfast ARN group that had mobilised and seen marches of hundreds at a local community level. - all such are a vital cog in the wheel.

What it does is not only raise awareness, but politicises many on the issue. In doing so, it brings the issue further to the fore and 'drags' the trade union Bureaucracy by the scruff of the neck into action - or into further action -by that ‘Mobilisation and Momentum from below'

Secondly if a trade union dispute, then it gives heart to the workers - strikers etc, to see such support and solidarity coming from the very areas in which the live.

Indeed the momentum created and the setting up of the local group in Dublin and soon in Belfast for Joanne, creates even more momentum on the issue - and has the real possibility of seeing more being done by the union

It also creates awareness, indeed we had a local picket for Joanne at the local Dunnes in West Belfast where 9 -10 activists did various actions at lunchtime, from going into Dunnes to standing in the middle of the road stopping cars with placards to take our leaflets – which see absolutely overwhelming support {virtually every car stopped}

{Photos I believe will be going up on Indymedia shortly}.

Indeed even though a press release was not sent out, media did turn up, with the 'Protestant' Newsletter talking pictures {First ever one as me as an Organise! member with some of the crew! – I think they took a Classic one of Jon and I at the very first Street Seen action in Belfast back in the days also.}

Again therefore creating more publicity for the issue.

Therefore I believe similar local groups, that are broad, democratic and representaive {as had seen in the West Belfast, Firefighter - Anti Iraq War and ARN groups etc} - that bring together as before workers on strike, socialists, local trade unionists and community activists etc – is an essential way forward and hopefully we will see that materialising shortly - re - postal workers..

Those who seek not to work with others that way, accountable and democratic - then - they should be simply side steped or left to do their own thing.

That’s just a few thoughts. D

by SP Member - Scoialist Party/CWI Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:11

Belfast postal workers on unofficial strike
Second week of industrial action against bosses’ bullying

Gary Mulcahy, Socialist Party (CWI), Belfast
Hundreds of postal workers are on unofficial strike in Belfast and Mallusk against bullying and harassment from Royal Mail management.

Royal Mail has been paralysed by a magnificent show of solidarity by postal workers across Belfast and by the shutting down of Mallusk sorting office which deals with mail across Northern Ireland. The strike has seriously disrupted the postal service.

A provocative and unjust disciplinary procedure taken against two Communication Workers’ Union (CWU) representatives on Tuesday 2 February by management in the North Belfast delivery section sparked the strike. This is part of a long campaign of harassment and bullying from tyrannical bosses in Royal Mail, stretching over two years. Postal workers took unofficial action last September and February in similar circumstances. This latest incident of management intimidation though has enraged workers at Royal Mail. One of the union reps kept a diary record of a long list of incidences of management harassment against postal workers. Management searched a drawer containing his personal belongings, removed the diary and photocopied the material. They then accused the union rep of bullying and intimidating other workers!

In response, the North Belfast section staged a walk-out. When news of the incident got to the South Belfast and West Belfast sections, the postal workers there quickly organised a solid walk-out in solidarity. On Thursday, 4 February, the bulk of workers at the Mallusk sorting office joined the strike. This shut down of distribution of all mail across Northern Ireland enormously strengthened the strike. In response, Royal Mail flew in 50 managers from England to scab on the strike. The scabs are being put up in Belfast’s luxurious Hilton Hotel.

Royal Mail refused to negotiate with the CWU until workers returned to work, but they were forced into negotiations after Mallusk sorting office was shut down. Since then, Royal Mail has taken a hard-line position, resulting in talks with CWU national officials breaking down.

The national leadership of the CWU have done everything they can to get the workers to return to work but are facing a determined workforce and a determined management. Management has placed impossible conditions on workers returning to work, which break past agreements and health and safety regulations. Each of the branch officials has been personally targeted by Royal Mail. They received a letter at their homes during one night from Royal Mail threatening them with legal action if they took part in the strike. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU) has offered to mediate future negotiations.

Incredibly, the BBC came into possession of a General Municipal Boilermakers (GMB) union letter which is being used to undermine the strike. The letter attacks the strike by claiming it was for "spurious reasons" and that the strike had become "deeply sinister". In Northern Ireland, the word 'sinister' has become associated with paramilitary involvement.

The Communication Workers’ Union (CWU) is calling for an 'independent' review of management/employee industrial relations. Royal Mail has refused to discuss this proposal, yet they have agreed similar 'independent' reviews in parts of England where disputes have emerged in the recent past.

It is clear that Royal Mail senior management are trying to take on the union in Northern Ireland to bring in new practices needed as part of preparing Royal Mail for privatisation. This is a battle which needs to be won by the union in the interests of postal workers across the North and Britain.

Unfortunately, there has been poor communication between union reps in different parts of the North, causing confusion amongst workers in different areas about the issues involved. To strengthen the strike and spread it to new areas, union reps from the affected areas in Belfast need to visit all areas to explain the issues and why this strike has to be won.

Workers’ march across Shankill and Falls
The level of support in working class communities was expressed in dramatic fashion when on 7 February over 350 postal workers left a rally in Transport House in central Belfast and marched up the ‘Protestant’ Shankill Road, across the 'peaceline' at Lanark Way, and down the ‘Catholic’ Falls Road. The communities of the Shankill Road, Springfield Road and the Falls Road - Catholic and Protestant - came out along the route to show their support for their postal workers. Politicians from the right-wing sectarian parties spoke at the peaceline about the need for the dispute to be resolved. Not surprisingly, none of them took part in the full march! The Socialist Party was the only political party with a banner on the march and our slogan ‘For Worker's Unity’ was applauded along the route.

An appeal should also be made to the wider trade union movement for solidarity action, especially the urgent need to raise money to go towards a strike fund. The real issues behind the strike need to be clearly explained to other workers. The mainstream media has muddied the waters by refusing to give an accurate account of the issues behind the strike. Instinctively, many working class people understand that low-paid postal workers would not easily go on unofficial strike action for more than a week without pay. Support groups involving postal workers, trade unionists, socialists, community activists and young people should be formed to carry out solidarity work in the communities and workplaces and to raise money for a strike fund.

by Sean - Organise! Thu Feb 09, 2006 13:08

Having been on the picket line over the last couple of days for a few hours, the spirit is still strong and defiant although the scabs draffted over from England are increasingly delivering more mail from toome street, compared to the 2 weeks before with assistance from the pigs, which is doing damage.
I think that the management attitude has somewhat moved slightly, which could be just playing to the media although they have yet to clarify their proposals and more specifically give assurances that an independent enquiry will be carried out to look at discipline procedures which is the key demand of the strikers.

Solidarity

by Davy Carlin Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:40

Before I finnalllllyyy go, I will say though, some interesting points Pat C , I was going to raise them myself - but I'm sure though Gorretti will come back to ATTEMPT, to further clarify , yet another, amazing statement. D.

by pat c Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:27

"Just one more example of why - especially when it comes to workers in struggle - we should NEVER believe what we hear in the mainstream media"

i have often used the bbc for updating on strike action in the north and i have usually found it to be accurate. i think your statement above is more than a little ultra left. NEVER? so we shouldnt believe articles by eamon mccann in the mainstream media? kieran allen occasionally writes on partnership and disputes in the irish times: should we scorn those articles?

the capitalist press is hostile to the workers movement but its quite a leap to say that we should NEVER believe what we read see or hear in the media regarding strikes. such an attitude tars all journalists with the same brush. I doubt if the NUJ would be happy with your attack on ALL journalists.

as for derry, i'm glad to hear that eamon mccann brought some positive news to the march. but surely it can hardly be just one person in derry whos stopping contact taking place. isnt there a branch or section committee?

by Davy Carlin Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:54

Spot on Ciaran.

Just one further point - apart from the larger numbers and longer march, there was one key and important difference between the termed historic Falls - Shankill, Fire -fighter and Postal workers marches.

The Postal workers march was organised by the Postal workers themselves. Whereas the Fire fighter one, was initiated, organised, and built by the local grassroots support group, locally.

The postal worker one seen a majority therefore of postal workers whereas the Fire - fighter one seen the majority from additional supporters, this from other Trade Unions, rank and file trade unionists, local residents and politicians amongst others. As stated though, it had seen quite a few uniformed Fire – fighters from the local Wes Belfast fire station in attendance behind the FBU banner, as recorded.

{I still have – now boxed away, that lead banner that myself and a few others that had lead of that march with}

The local West Belfast grassroots support group had did much activity before the march. Therefore it differed in those regards, as well as within the context of that time, as raised above.

So while the FBU organised central marches of their membership, the local groups sought to mobilise and find support for their cause in ‘the communities’, in tandem.

I say this as I believe that such local support groups are essential – indeed we have seen the recent support and solid ‘Trade Union Representation’ from across the Northern Trade Union Movement at our Belfast picket, for a trade union comrade in Dublin - re Dunne’s.

I had written and recorded quite a bit, re - the FBU dispute, but for a bit of flavour of the time {2002} and the sense of organising and activity, I reprint one of the articles I had written which was carried in the Northern media at the time.

I think it is important, given the grassroots sense of organising, in relation to support, solidarity, awareness raising and activity, that has ascended greatly in Belfast in recent years.

As for Derry - Belfast contact - well quite are few trade unionists and political organisations are engaging between both

Signing off D

2002 – West Belfast Fire Fighter Support Group. {Davy Carlin}

‘The local West Belfast Fire -fighters Support Group was established recently along with other local support groups after a meeting of various trade union and community activists in Central Belfast. We decided initially amongst other activities to do a collection and distribute leaflets at the Kennedy Centre on the Falls Road. With a dozen local trade union representatives from West Belfast, various unions, and local community activists, we were joined by over a dozen firefighters from the local fire station. Some of those in attendance had brought their kids - some dressed in firefighters uniforms. And with a fire engine parked outside we were very visible.

Rather than standing outside the premises we were actually not only invited into the main mall but also provided with table and chairs by the centre which was much appreciated. The response by the local people of West Belfast was absolutely brilliant, with not only hundreds of pounds donated in a couple of hours but people were very aware of the role of Blair and his supporters in relation to the firefighters dispute. Much of the propaganda about the firefighters put out by various networks cut no ice with many whom I spoke to.

Such support was greatly appreciated by both the firefighters and the local trade union and community activists who came to lend support. Much of the propaganda put out by the government against the firefighters is part of a bigger political agenda as witnessed through its recent interventions.

The firefighters seek only fair pay yet the government refuses to allow this and calls for 'modernisation'. The FBU has stated its commitment to further introduce change for the benefit of the communities it serves and has already put out its position statement on the way forward for 'true modernisation.' Yet the modernisation the government states and seeks will actually mean cuts to fire cover and would be equivalent of closing down the entire Scottish fire service if taken in relation to UK.

With the recent support and solidarity shown in those few hours in the Kennedy Centre for 'fair pay' for the fire - fighters I would like to say to the hundreds who showed their support in West Belfast 'fair play' and I hope such brilliant support and solidarity will continue as Blair continues to dig in his heels while his spin-doctors unleash their propaganda’.

Davy Carlin, Spokesperson, West Belfast Fire - Fighters Support Group

by DEXer Wed Feb 08, 2006 23:40

So what are they striking about???

by Goretti - SWP Wed Feb 08, 2006 19:39 gorettih at aol dot com Derry

Yes Ciaran, the truth is most of the communication between the Belfast strikers and Derry posties has been through Eamonn McCann and SWPers generally. Some of this is down to the fears, outlined above that all in the union have, of being seen to be "inciting" unofficial action. This is one of the reasons why it was SWP members who leafleted the East Belfast Distribution Office this morning [which did cause a walk out of about 25 workers I hear].

So, some of the rank and file workers in the Derry sorting office have been asking their union rep to organise a meeting and he told them that once the union in Belfast got in touch to request it, he would facilitate it [ this means, he would allow the meeting to be held in the Post Office Social Club which is just across the road from the sorting office on Gt. James St.] This was the message that Eamonn McCann was passing on yesterday.

However, it turns out that he was only saying this to take pressure off himself in Derry because when he was contacted by Belfast union reps, he refused to do anything until the strike was made official.

It's hard to know whether a walk out is possible in Derry or not. They have walked out themselves on several occasions over the last 2-3 years over bullying management, but have usually been persuaded back to work within 24 or 36 hours. So, the issue will be one that resonates - it's not just a Belfast problem. In fact, there have been wildcat strikes in Royal Mail offices in Oxford, London and elsewhere about the exact same issue. The problem is that the Derry workers are getting the official union line and the management line but have not yet heard what the dispute is really all about.

Anyone who thinks that this is not a really important dispute for all workers in the North of Ireland might think again when they hear that Royal Mail have drafted in 50 managers from Britain to try to break the strike.

by q Wed Feb 08, 2006 19:21

yes because your in a much better position than us all to judge that

by Ciarán Ó Brolcháin Wed Feb 08, 2006 19:14

Davy, a chara, I agree with everything you said there 100%. You are of course right to state that many didn't want to see the rally in support of the firefighters going ahead. (Similarly, what the hell is the GMB up to with its attacks on the Royal Mail workers who went on strike?)

Goretti, when Eamon McCann was speaking he relayed a message that Derry Royal Mail workers had asked him to give - they say that they would like people from Belfast to go down and address them on the issue, to find out exactly what is going on.

I'm not sure if they'll go on strike - the problem is mainly to do with the management in the Belfast office; but of course if the bosses can get away with it Belfast then they'll carry it over to Derry and Portadown as well. I don't think a sympathetic strike is likely though. Maybe a one-day stoppage or something along those lines.

by Goretti H. - SWP Wed Feb 08, 2006 18:40 gorettih at aol dot com Derry

The reports on the BBC that postal workers in Derry will "under no circumstances" join their colleagues in Belfast are premature, to say the least. There are historical divisions between CWU branches East and West of the Bann, so that solidarity across the North can be difficult to get. But the truth is that the workers in Derry have yet to hear the truth about the dispute from the Belfast strikers.

Such are the hoops that Thatcher's anti-union laws force workers to go through these days, there has been no meeting in Derry's sorting office to discuss solidarity action. Attempts by the strikers to get a meeting down here came to nothing as the local rep. is so afraid of falling foul of the anti-union laws that he will not facilitate it.

As a result, local socialists have had to step in at the strikers' request and organise a meeting at which they can address their fellow workers in Derry. So, tomorrow afternoon, as postal workers end their shift, Belfast strikers will be in Derry for the first time putting their case and asking for solidarity action.

BTW, the BBC has already had to issue one retraction in relation to the management lies they have carried - the allegation that car registrations were being collected by the worker whose disciplining was the straw that broke the camel's back and led to the walk-out. In fact, he was only doing what all workers are advised to do by their unions when faced with a bullying manager - noting every incident of bullying. There WERE no car registrations but by putting that about, management managed to make it sound like there was paramilitary involvement.

Just one more example of why - especially when it comes to workers in struggle - we should NEVER believe what we hear in the mainstream media.

by Davy Carlin Wed Feb 08, 2006 18:22

Hi Ciaran

'Could not hold a candle to the level of class solidarity'

Well it was not as big, of course - although the fire-fighter march did see several trade union banners outside of the FBU one marching in Solidarity also.

Nevertheless it was as unprecedented, more especially within the context of the time

Also let us not forget that it happened when many thought it could not happen, while others did not want it to happen, as I have recorded elsewhere.

That is probably why it seen Police in Flack Jackets walking at either side, and behind the march, openly carrying machine guns.

Times of course are a changing, and such will I hope become more regular. as many of us have been arguing for and actively seeking to create for years.

Indeed on many occasions it has been against threats, intimidation, dismissive ness, as was the nature to us ‘Half Prods', and 'Loyalist Lovers’ etc at the time

Despite that, I am glad though that things seem to be moving on.

The Postal worker march again was historic and they should be supported by all in their continued struggle, as had been the Fire -fighters one at the time...

MORE OF IT I SAY!

ALL THE BEST - D

by Ciarán Ó Brolcháin Wed Feb 08, 2006 17:56 ciaranobrolchain at hotmail dot com

I thought that there were a lot more than 400 at the march. I'd say 800, maybe even 1,000.

Four local representatives spoke at Lanark Way. They were:
Michael Ferguson (Sinn Féin)
William Humphrey (DUP)
Marie Moore (Sinn Féin)
Hugh Smyth (PUP)

Then Eamon McCann said a few words (well, actually, he shouted a lot of words), and two English representatives from the CWU also spoke.

With all due respect to Comrade Carlin's propaganda skills, the firefighter support rally at the Springfield Road in 2002 couldn't hold a candle to the level of class solidarity that was expressed yesterday. Given the nature of yesterday's march - going from the city centre, up the Shankill, stopping at Lanark Way for speeches, then down the Springfield Road and the Falls back into the town - Mickey Ferguson was right to comment that nothing like that has been seen since the Outdoor Relief Strike.

by pat c Wed Feb 08, 2006 16:13

"Colleagues reject postal dispute

Royal Mail workers in Derry have refused to join their Belfast colleagues in unofficial strike action. Charlie Kelly of the Communication Workers Union in the city said "under no circumstances" would they strike as long as the action remained unofficial.

Post has been disrupted in the north, south and west Belfast since the dispute began on 31 January.

It is also having a knock-on effect, with no letters to areas outside Northern Ireland being dispatched. "

Full story at link.

by sean Wed Feb 08, 2006 16:00

read the reports of the historic postal strike
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id...=8277

by Davy Carlin - Organise! Wed Feb 08, 2006 14:11

The 'Historic' Fire fighter, 'Falls and Shankill' march of 2002 is recorded as attached. D