RSF say Dublin Orange march is provocative

by Dublin Exile Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:32

Well done to RSF...you can always rely on them to take the bait.

Won't it just do wonders for the chances of Irish Unity to confirm to the Love Ulster people that the people of Dublin are a crowd of protestant hating fascists who won't allow them to demonstrate in peace in our capital city.

Regardless of what you think about Willie Frazer, he does represent a constituency of people who have suffered during the conflict and no amount of 'whataboutery' will change that fact.

We should take this as an opportunity to demonstrate that in this Republic we are tolerant of political diversity and that unionists and loyalists have as much right to hold public political demonstrations as nationalists, republicans, or anyone else.

by waggish Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:40

jesus boys, but you could be missing an opportunity to sell them a few bombs! or is it only drug barons you sell them to?

btw. nice pic in the papers during the week of a man(drug dealer?) charged with ira membership giving the fingers to the press, a true republican revolutionary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Frank Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:40

your respect for other people's POV's is admirable.

Won't it just do wonders for the chances of Free Choice to confirm to the Pro Life people that the people of Dublin are a crowd of Church hating lefties who won't allow them to demonstrate in peace in our capital city.

Regardless of what you think about Pro Life they do represent a constituency of people who have opinions and no amount of 'whataboutery' will change that fact.

We should take this as an opportunity to demonstrate that in this Republic we are tolerant of diversity and that Youth Defense have as much right to hold public demonstrations as Pro Choicers

by pat c Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:42

The problem is that Willie Frazer thinks that his is the only constituency that suffered. Even his organisation is called Families Acting on behalf of Innocent Relatives. He does not acknowledge the suffering of those whose relatives were killed by Crown Forces or Loyalist Paramilitaries. He does not acknowlrdge the suffering of the survivors and relatives of the Dublin anand Monaghn bombings.

Willie Frazer has a right to march in Dublin and I would not attempt to deny him that right. Others have the right to peacefully protest at the march. 2 RUC men died in Loyalist attacks during the Garvaghy Road siege, one kicked to death by an Orange mob, the other killed by a Loyalist pipebomb. I will hold a placard with the names of these RUC Constables to remind Mr Frazer of how loyal some of his compatriots have been.

by The Duke Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:45

Can't wait to see you support the KKK march down O'Connell Street. I hope your good friend the cllr proposes it at the next council meeting.

by Joe Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:47

Frank I get what your trying to do but it doesn't work because there are no calls for YD to be banned marching by the government. RSF are not calling for a counter demo but for a state ban - there is a huge difference between these two things.

This is the second weird RSF press release on this site in the last couple of weeks and this one makes less sense than the last one. Why on earth would RSF re-enforce the ability of the state to ban political demonstrations the state doesn't like over something that is obviously just a stupid stunt to seek such a ban from the OO.

by redjade Wed Dec 14, 2005 13:07

Thats what a friend told me many years back - he always had an absurd sense of humour. His philosophy being: Humour can be more disarming and damaging than whinging and protesting.

So, why not turn the whole event into an RTS-Street Party scene? (along with the Orange drum rolls a thumpa thumpa thumpa electrobeat from a shipping trolley sound system & clowns with vibrators, as well)

Orangeys on Dame Street? Why not Make the absurd even absurder?

just a thought :-)

by Dublin Exile Wed Dec 14, 2005 13:10

1. In fairness Frank, YDs pamphlets, posters, and street antics played right into our hands on many occassions.

2. Pat C - FAIRs position on other peoples losses doesn't make their own hurt any less real. I would agree with you that claiming to act for Innocent relatives seems to imply that the relatives of other victims are less than innocent - this is insensitve and unhelpful but doesn't change the fact that Frazer and his people are wounded and hurt. To protest against their demonstration would be seen as a denial of their suffering - and where would that get us?

Many in the border protestant community feel that they suffered a campaign of ethnic cleansing during the conflict, we should face up to this fact (perception) and try and deal with this perception, not engange in 'whataboutery' or denial.

by Big Joe Wed Dec 14, 2005 13:28

Fact of the matter is, this march is not wanted by the irish people, it will not be in the interests of public safety and is an attempt to give a two fingers to the irish people and the state. The march will fail and backfire and will be counter productive to orangism. They need to realsie that they are only allowed have their little childish marches in their own areas. They have no right to wave their union flags on historic dublin streets and if they are not allowed do it in irish areas of the north, they certainly should not be allowed do it on the islands capital city.. If they do it once, they'll be looking to do them all the time and in every town and village. Its like a hobby to these. This will all lead to trouble so it should be nipped in the bud now before this nonsense goes any further..

by Joe Wed Dec 14, 2005 13:50

That march probably is wanted by the 40,000 or so Irish people who are in the Orange Order and a fair few more besides. The Orange Order may be a load of reactionary shit but it is an Irish institution and part of a common Irish cultural heritage. The Orger is a lot more Irish than people realise, as late as 1892 the slogan Erin-go-Bragh’ was displayed at the Ulster Convention. There bigots but they are 'our' bigots.

by The Duke Wed Dec 14, 2005 13:54

Exactly the point I was making. A paragraph from one of the articles in your link.

"Understanding the reactionary origins of the Orange Order is central is understanding why the claims that the marches represent 'Protestant culture' is about on a par with claiming a Ku Klux Klan march represents 'white culture'. Indeed the very promotion of a separate 'Protestant' culture can only be seen as deeply reactionary in the context of the 6 counties. The term 'Protestant' culture is never used to include the Protestant republicans of 1798 or 1934, for instance. As such it's real meaning can only be 'anti-Catholic'."

by Big Joe Wed Dec 14, 2005 14:51

I agree with Joe that southern orangemen have a right to march and after all they are irish the same way as southern protestants are as irish as most of us. The problem with this march is that everyone knows it will be hijacked by a hardcore element with loyalism and orangism to further their own agenda and make a point of walking down dublins main thoroughfares waving their symbols of catholic/irish repression. If it is still deemed not time for the queen to visit Dublin for the very reason that people are not ready for union jacks fluttering around the city, how can it be ready for this? The fact is, that as tolerant and accomodating Irish people try to be with what has to be considered a very irrational, bigotted and bitter group of people, they may feel that things are being taking too far with this carry on and it will backfire for all involved...

by Joe Wed Dec 14, 2005 15:01

I'm not arguing for a right to march for orangemen, southern or otherwise. I'm arguing that a strategy of calling on the state to ban them from marching is counter productive.

If it goes ahead I may well head down to whatever counter demo is called. I'll be much more likely to do so if it is an amusing piss take of the bigots - in this context they don't deserve to be taken seriously.

by Oisín - Sinn Féin Wed Dec 14, 2005 15:02

Regardless of the fact I find the views of groups like Love Ulster, Youth Defense and other extreme right wing groups to be completely repulsive, I have to as a democrat respect their right of free assembly. Of course this does not mean they can walk through a neighbourhood which does not want them and terrorise and humiliate its inhabitants. As long as the march is in a non residential area and peaceful, they should be allowed to hold it. But dont be mistaken I'll be right there protesting against there reactionary and sectarian standpoint. I have to say I like the idea of the carnival type protest but this is too serious a concern I think to make it into a farce, then again maybe it the perfect counter

by observer Wed Dec 14, 2005 15:08

Yos say you respect the right of Love Ulster and YD to protest but that you will be out protesting against them!

And yet if 'right wingers' dare to protest at left wing marches they are accused of being fascists. Bit of consistency here.

by Chekov Wed Dec 14, 2005 15:21

During the Grassroots Gathering in Belfast an Orange march happened to pass by Giros, the venue. The grassrootsers emptied out into the street and performed a big jig for the bigots. Considering the fact that there were many people there who the bigots would have considered to be 'freaks' (men in dresses, hippies, punks, etc) this was very effective to my mind at making the orangies look foolish and they certainly didn't seem to enjoy the experience.

If they march in Dublin, I think a similar sort of demonstration would be a very popular and effective way of making fun of the bigots - it would keep the rosary bead brigade away as well and prevent the counter demonstration from being a mirror image of their sectarian bigotry.

by SFwatch Wed Dec 14, 2005 15:22

Sinn Fein and the IRA often have repulsive sectarian nationalistic parades and commerations. I don't see people opposing them. Hypocracy

Oisin I dont see you protesting against right wing bigoted groups such as the Ancient Order of Hibernians or the Knights of Columbanus. Hypocracy

by Chekov Wed Dec 14, 2005 15:23

"And yet if 'right wingers' dare to protest at left wing marches they are accused of being fascists. Bit of consistency here."

In your imagination - I'll bet you can't supply a single example of this happening in Ireland ever - can you? You're confusing real left wingers with the fantasy versions in your head again aren't you.

by Auld Dubliner Wed Dec 14, 2005 15:29

The members of the Orange Order have the legal right to demonstrate, just the same as other Irish people. And that is the point - by coming down the Dublin road they are finally accepting their Irishness.
The rest of us have rights too. For starters we have the right to fall about laughing at this odd bunch of 17th Century rejects. And that is the most natural, logical, and sensible thing to do - treat them to revolutionary derision.

by observer Wed Dec 14, 2005 15:35

Perhaps I ought to have said "events" rather than marches, but yes I can recall anti-abortion activists protesting at pro-abortion meetings and at least one march.

As for fantasising. really, I think anyone who beleives in socialism or anarchism is in no position to be casting stones :)

by anti sectarian Wed Dec 14, 2005 15:38

Of course you've a right to protest against them. But that's not what is at issue here. The issue here is the inconsistancy of nationalists and republicans. The Orangemen are a right wing bigotted sectarian organisation. So are the AOH, Knights of Columbanus, SF and the IRA. These latter groups regularly have demos and parades which most would not even consider protesting against. This is inconsistant. People have to accept that there exists such a thing as catholic sectarianism and it is just as rotten as protestant sectarianism

by Big Joe Wed Dec 14, 2005 15:44

I like the comments about countering this orange march by just laughing at them but I think its a serious issue and if they do it once, they will be trying to set a norm. It also has to be said that SF have much more of a right (and support) to march in dublin etc whereas the orangemen have no right at all. They hold virtually no support down south so should not expect that they can march through a city where they are not wanted, trying to insult the inhabitants of that city with their bigotry being waved in peoples faces, especially innocent kids etc out shopping. Its like the KKK marching through the bronx..

by chekov Wed Dec 14, 2005 16:06

"Perhaps I ought to have said "events" rather than marches, but yes I can recall anti-abortion activists protesting at pro-abortion meetings and at least one march."

And can you point at anybody calling them 'fascists' purely for the fact of protesting? You can't - it's a fantasy.

by Frank - Sinn Fein Wed Dec 14, 2005 16:12

whats wrong with being a member of Sinn Fein and supporting the ideals of Youth Defence. I am such, possibly being a northern Republican means I'm not confined to the same pinko left ideologial straightjacket that some of our southern base regularly 'educate' their northern comrades. We got the same marxist retorts in uniting the working class back in the late 1960's when the unionist working class were burning down Bomay St.

by Noel Wed Dec 14, 2005 16:17

"Its like the KKK marching through the bronx"

The KKK are considered a violent, sometimes murderous organisation. Only republican bigots would regard the Orange Order as such - so the comparison is poor.

by observer Wed Dec 14, 2005 16:19

Remember being caught up in a wrangle between SWP and YD one afternoon - as a non-participant I hasten to add - and the word 'fascist' was freely bandied about - by both sides ironically!

by Chekov Wed Dec 14, 2005 16:31

"Remember being caught up in a wrangle between SWP and YD one afternoon - as a non-participant I hasten to add - and the word 'fascist' was freely bandied about - by both sides ironically!"

If SWP members called YD fascists it was presumably due to their prediliction for intimidating workers in family planning clinics and disrupting - sometimes violently - the meetings of those whom they disagree with - not due to the fact that they hold counter protests.

"The KKK are considered a violent, sometimes murderous organisation. Only republican bigots would regard the Orange Order as such - so the comparison is poor."

Only "republican bigots" and everybody else who is aware of things like Drumcree and the events of the springfield road this year. Or do you think that attacking people with swords is some sort of non-violent love-fest?

by observer Wed Dec 14, 2005 16:37

I would never persume to know what motivates adherents of totalitarian Marxism so don't know why SWP were using the term, but at the incident I witnessed, there was no violence, just the usual name calling, and as I say fascist being the most popular insult among both sets of protagonists.

by Chekov Wed Dec 14, 2005 17:11

"I would never persume to know what motivates adherents of totalitarian Marxism so don't know why SWP were using the term,"

That's an interesting use of the word 'never' - considering that you did "presume to know" exactly that a few comments up on the thread.

"And yet if 'right wingers' dare to protest at left wing marches they are accused of being fascists."

From this I can't help but arrive at the conclusion that you are not telling the truth with your latest claim.

(I predict a silly semantic argument now where you try to say that your original statement did not ascribe motivation despite the bare words in front of us)

*fastens seat belt*

*polishes delete button*

*considers hiding entire sub-thread*

*curses self for posting to indymedia the day after office party*

*decides to leave all such decisions to non hung-over editor*

by Joe Wed Dec 14, 2005 17:13

Ah so you expect the SWP (in that case) to have forgotten the various physical attacks and attempted physical attacks YD had carried out on people in the past. I don't think YD are fascist but it is dishonest to deny they have engaged in a bit more than holding up placards at meetings. Whacking you political opponents with snooker cues or hurleys is the sort of thing that leads to being labelled a fascist and if perhaps this is not a 100% accurate use of the term it is at least understandable.

by observer Wed Dec 14, 2005 17:20

Way to go. 'Debating' with someone while threatening to delete their comments! Mind you, I see that is a common response in these parts.

As for what I said, why in the name of jaysus would I bother making up such a trivial incident?? There would be lot's of more dramatic ways to illustrate my point.

Which is, that left-wingers do not like their opponents to turn up on counter-protests (such as the one I describe) but feel it their god given right to do the same. And of course when in power the first thing they do is ban/censor/imprison/murder their opponents. Just like the fascists. Two sides of the same bloody coin.

by pete Wed Dec 14, 2005 18:13

Republican Sinn Féin should organise a counter demo.

Calling on the 26 County state to ban the Love Ulster march is rather strange, since RSF do not reconigise the two british puppet states on this island.

Organise a Counter DEMO NOW. No Orange Bigots HERE.

by Chekov Wed Dec 14, 2005 18:43

"As for what I said, why in the name of jaysus would I bother making up such a trivial incident?? There would be lot's of more dramatic ways to illustrate my point."

read it again slowly - you appear incapable of reading english and understanding it. Nobody is saying that you made up the incident. I (and Joe) both made the obvious point that the claims that YD were fascist were NOT based upon them holding counter-protests, but their other - more sinister - actions.

Read it slowly. Let it sink in. Remember that you are not dealing with the fantasies in your head but with the words on the screen - they have certain widely understood meanings which are different to the meanings that your fantasy lefties are saying. Look up a dictionary.

by observer2 Wed Dec 14, 2005 20:48

Big Joe speaks for the people of Ireland!! Fair play to you Joe but you don't speak for me. I welcome the Orange Order march.

The Orange Order is a sectarian organisation insofar as it bans Roman Catholics(among others) from it's membership. It also bans women. We already know that. We already know about the Gervaghy road and all the other inflammatory marches. So no need to go over it all.

However we live in a state where freedom of assembly is a constitutional right. Therefore the Orange Order have the same right to be in O'Connell street as Republican Sinn Fein who regularly hold (admittedly rather small) gatherings there.

So if this group of men in bowler hats want to stroll down O'Connell street beating a Lambeg, let them. The alternative is to oppose them/ban them/ attack them and show that we are as bigoted as they are.

Rejade is right, lets make it a party welcome for the boys from Ballymena, Portadown, Ballyhacamore and all those other dour bastions of freedom and democracy!!! If nothing else we might make the miserable gits smile for a change.

DUBLIN SAYS YES!

by C. Kelly Wed Dec 14, 2005 21:03 c.kelly at tcd dot ie Castlebar.

No to sectarian parades,
No to forcing down an area where they're not wanted,
No to the chanting sectarian slogans as they pass,
No to the denial of a Dubliner's right to object to this,
No to the advocation of the U.V.F. in their banners,
No to riots which follow if they don't get their way,

'NO' to ANY such sectarian parade.

by Observer 87 Wed Dec 14, 2005 21:18

I think this would be an excellent time to organise a gay rights parade in the city centre. If everyone turned up with tricolours, it would just confirm all the Orange Order's prejudices and provide material for loyalists. Turning up giving out leaflets, maybe holding a banner that read "SAVE SODOMY FROM ULSTER", with a few people in drag - now that would really piss them off, and they wouldn't know what to do about it

by C. Kelly Wed Dec 14, 2005 21:24 c.kelly at tcd dot ie Castlebar.

I agree, the orange order are total nuts. They just wan't to force their Parades on areas where they are not wanted. I remember the 1996 Drumcree 'U turn' where, after four days of Protestant road blocks across the six counties, the RUC reversed their decision and allowed orangemen march down the Garvaghy road.

by Oisín - Ógra Shinn Féin Wed Dec 14, 2005 22:46

To observer, I have never seen right wingers protesting at any meeting or march i've attended, but I can assure you I would not be calling them fascists simply for launching a protest, if they broke up the meeting or tried to attack people (say with hurley al a YD) then I might be tempted to use the f word, but in fairness with good grounds.
To SFwatch, nationalism does not automaticly equal sectarian. Name me a sectarian SF event, please! Commemorating those who fought for the freedom of EVERY person on this Island from capitalist oppression is nothing to be ashamed of. When organising for the ITGWU, Connolly was stoned and chased by the AOH, I have no time for those bigots either, neither do I have time for the unelected rulers of Ireland the knights of columbanus, a bunch of catholic fascists.
I'm not a catholic or a protestant so I dont think I can be accused of being sectarian on religious grounds but I have to say I like to keep fascists and bigots as far away from me as possible.
Frank, the problem with you being in Sinn Féin is you wont be there much longer your right wing purely nationalist views will have no voice in the future, and thank ógra for that! Go join the SDLP

by Tom Paine Thu Dec 15, 2005 00:29

A few years ago in the U.S. nazies marched through Skokie, Illinois, a predominantly Jewish suburb. Their right to do so, under the First Amendment to the U.S. constitution, was backed by the American Civil Liberties Union.

This amendment, and the other nine amendments, which compose the U.S. bill or rights, are the result of the American revolution, and the establishment of the American republic.

Irish republicanism results from the same historical tendency. (Tom Paine was an honorable member of the United Irishmen).

For RSF to call for the banning of freedom of expression shows their ignorance of both republicanism and freedom.

So let the Orange bigots march and condemn the ignorant, anti-freedom stance of RSF.

by Big Joe Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:18

Tom Paine has a valid point in that we live in a democracy so therefore cannot be seen to impede the freedom of expression/demostration etc. However, there are exceptions to this rule and one of the underlying reasons is that if a march is deemed to be a provocative march, it should be banned in the interests of public safety. As a matter of interest, would the american nazis or any other nazis for the that matter be allowed to march through a jewist area of america today?

by Ronan Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:54

The rug has been pulled out from the Orange Orders’ feet. It seems that their platform is (very) slowly diminishing and this decision is just being provocative.

From their point of view, the Republic is a completely separate state. Would it be usual for a political party from England to march on Paris and claim they have a right to do so?

It’s a genius move on their part. If they announce plans to march down here, and they’re not welcomed or reaction is aggressive and there are incidents at the actual march, they win. If the groups that would have a problem don’t play into their hands and make a big deal of it, they win.


They are being bypassed socially and politically and this is a desperate attempt to get people’s backs up, earn some column inches and if they are lucky, get a “Look how are being victimised” story in to the bargin.

The Government have to agree to the march in order to appear fair, and maybe they should. But this is not trying to find a solution and end the enmity, just heaping more fuel on the fire

A counter take the p!ss march is a very good idea, one thing the Orange Order can’t stand is to be made fun of.

by Seamus Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:37

To the previous replies, get your facts right. Read the RSF statement carefully, there is no call for a ban, just a questioning of why this march was given the green light while Irish nationalists are continuosly abused and attacked by the bigoted members of the Loyalist\Orange order\UDA organisation.

Hard to know what to do really, one part of me thinks the purchase of two dozen eggs on the day might be the way to go, but then as Ronan said in his post, taking the piss out of them might be the best way, anyone interested in dressing up as Laurel and Hardy?

Anyway, the Orange Order has being persecuting Irish nationalists and republicans since Wolfe Tones days and are responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths at this stage, or are these victims 'non innocent victims' according the the O. order?

Finally, republicans never march down loyalist\unionist areas when they march, big difference there. Even if they tried we all know the RUC would machine gun them on sight.

by jeff Thu Dec 15, 2005 14:03

very Rep[ublican very pro IRA yet they were allowed to march in London and have had numerous marches throughout the UK.

This is the nature of a free and democratic society-people have the right to free assembly, get over it.

by (Sigh) Thu Dec 15, 2005 15:06

If you believe Ireland is 32 counties strong and Protestant Unionists are just as Irish as everyone else then what's the problem. Surely the idea of a an Orange parade down here is a GOOD thing in terms of letting Protestants know that Dublin is as much a part of their country and belongs to them too,

Here's a mad idea, if you don't like Orange parades don't go into town that day!

Stay at home, find something else to be bothered by or just grow up!

by Oisín - Ógra Shinn Féin Thu Dec 15, 2005 16:55

Its not that they're protestants its that they're bigots, same story if it was AOH or some Irish nazi group

by T.Paine Fri Dec 16, 2005 01:38

Yes in the U.S. today nazis are allowed march. And the KKK do hold regular rallies, although invariably they draw alternative, and bigger, counter demos.

Its called freedom of expression and is protected under the First Amendment to the U.S. constitution. (Interestingly, the U.S. constitution was not ratified until it included the first ten amendments, known as the Bill of Rights).

These rights emerged from the common people's struggles against tyranny by groups such as the Levellers, whose members mutinied rather than serve under Cromwell in Ireland. The U.S. rebelled against England but preserved and extended people's freedoms.

It is this democratic, republican tradition which banning the Orange bigots would deny. And remember if they can ban the Orange bigots they (the Powers that be) can use this as an excuse to ban any other march. And marches to be effective do have to be "provocative".

by Big Joe Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:02

I cannot argue with Tom Paine on your arguement about the right to demostrate as it is a cornerstone of democracy but i do think the issue of public safety on this one is a realistic factor. However, i still feel i have to refer to the north and ask, how come some orange marches are prevented from going down certain areas and secondly, how come the irish are not allowed march at all in protestant areas. Is the north not a democracy too?? Why should the south be any different. Hence, why should they be allowed come down here and do what is partially banned in the north or are liberated Irish people considered weaker or less emotional about the orange order than our northern citizens etc. Are we now looked upon as a ridiculous political correctness state where no one has the balls anymore to stand up to any form of conterversial topic without tripping over each other so they don't say anything that could offend any of the west brit jouralists in the pro unionist 'Irish Independent' !!!

by Big Joe Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:45

yeah, we were all talking about it in the boozer last night. Even my normally quieter and even leftie mates were snappin about it. We gonna round up a big crew from the parish and go in to make sure these bigots are challenged if they are being provocative in the march...

by Des Dalton - Republican Sinn Fein Sat Dec 17, 2005 22:50 desdalton at rsf dot ie 223 Parnell St Dublin 1 01 8729747

RSF to spearhead campaign
RSF orgaise counter -demonstration
RSF to rally opposition to loyalist march in Dublin

At a meeting of its Ard Comhairle on Saturday December 17,
Republican Sinn Féin decided to rally opposition to the proposed
loyalist march in Dublin on January 28. Republican Sinn Féin are
organising a counter-demonstration at the memorial to the 33
victims of the British-backed loyalist Dublin and Monaghan
bombings of 1974 in Dublin's Talbot Street.

Republican Sinn Féin appeal to people from all over Ireland to join
with them in opposing this sectarian and racist march taking place
on the streets of Dublin and to register solidarity with the
beleaguered nationalist people of the Six-Counties.

ENDS

by Peter Mcveigh Sun Dec 18, 2005 00:25 Sligo

I certainly don't wan't an Orange Parade running through my city. We have all seen the dark past with these sectarian mobs attacking the RUC if they aren't allowed force their parades down Catholic enclaves like the Garvaghy Road, Portadown. Most civillised Irish people would probably not wan't them to march here too.

by Barry Sun Dec 18, 2005 00:35

Its a UDA/UVF parade , accompanied by Orangemen and lyalist politicians .

by kintama Sun Dec 18, 2005 01:05

Minister Mc Dowell might want to check if members of LOL (Loyal Orange Lodge) 633 will be attending the parade. This is the Lodge which carries a banner dedicated to Brother B Robinson . Bro Robinson was shot by the British Army one minute after shooting an elderly Catholic in a random shooting at Ardoyne shops. Even the BBC and ITV could'nt bring themselves to suggest that the murder victim was anything other that an innocent shopper in the wrong place at the wrong time. Incidentally the type of upstanding chaps, much beloved by Ruth Dudley Edwards ,who belong to LOL 633 are the very same who claim the civil and religious liberty of parading past those same Ardoyne shops every year.
But Bro Robinson is not the only LOL 633 claim to fame . An esteemed member is one Eddie Mc Ilwaine a member of the Shankill Butchers. (Dublin 4 types consult Martin Dillons book on the grisly activities of these people). You might think that Eddie would not be desirable as a member given that one victim had his teeth pulled out with pliers and had his throat cut back to the spine, even worse Eddie was a member of the UDR. However a spokesperson for the Orange Order (not believed to be Ruth Dudley Edwards ) said that Eddie was a member of 'good standing'.
I hope the Minister takes an interest in this matter as I am personally aware that he is gravely concerned about potential threats to the State.

by Mapreader Sun Dec 18, 2005 01:15

The memorial is at the Amiens Street end of Talbot Street, and is about a quarter mile away from O'Connell Street. I do not understand how that could possibly be described as a "counter -demonstration".

by Sean Sun Dec 18, 2005 01:52

With all do in respect to your comment but as long as there is a protest in some form or another against this Sectarian Parade, then this is what matters. Not where Irish people stay with their mouths zipped. It would be very interesting to see if the Orangemen get violent if they are challenged by protesters in their path. This is their usual way. I'm goin 2 go go along and join the protesters in sympathy.

This Orange March cannot be allowed to slag Irish people off under the disguise of 'innocent victims'. Lets face it; Its all about a sectarian parade.

by Seán Sun Dec 18, 2005 03:38

I'd say that a lot of Irish people would be willing go demonstrate at the march if

1) It is an Orange Order/Willie Frazier march.

You won't get many if it is neutral victims marching.

I think it is being organised by Willie Frazier though, and unless it is being suported by the main vicitms support group in the North, it will be nothing more than a sham.

Beidh mé ann in aon chor.

by John Sun Dec 18, 2005 09:59

So much for all your talk about freedom of speech. Republicans claim the right to march in English cities like Manchester, Birmingham and London, all cities which they have bombed and in which they have massacred innocent civilians. The reality is that Republicans are fascists who want to suppress all those who are opposed to them. If they were ever in power, it wouldn't only be idiot organisations like the Orange Order that were prevented from marching, but Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, PDs and all organisations who do not share their extreme nationalist socialist viewpoint. Fortuantely, that day will never come.

by Seamus Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:27

As for the post from "John" suggesting that republicans would supress all opposed to them, might I ask what he thinks of the establishment of FF, PD, FG, and Labours attempts to supress all opposed to them?

Where do we begin, lets see, allowing 34 Irish citizens to be butchered by British intelligence and not persuing the perpetrators. How about censorship, ever heard of Section 31? talk about fascism and oppression. How about internment with out trial, ever heard of the curragh camp and the Repulblicans housed there, or PortLaoise prison where there are prisoners convicted by jury less courts on the word of a Garda Sergeant? Or on the word of paid and discredited informers?

Ever heard of the offences against the state act? I was recently threathend with 24hrs detention for visiting a Sinn Fein book shop for christs sake! And dont get me started on McDowell and his antics.

I could go on, but I think the republicans could learn a ton from the free state on oppression of political rivals.

Talk about the dog calling the cat hairy hole!
Save me from free state hyprocrites.....

by Dermot Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:13

jOHN,
What about the Dublin and Monaghan bombings that Protestants bombed? Did you know that they claim the right to hold an Orange Parade in Monaghan and Donegal every July?

by Barry Sun Dec 18, 2005 13:17

Name one juror who was murdered in his / her home please . Youve made this allegation twice in your rant .

And as for the right to freedom of speech Section 31obviously passed you by . It wasnt just directed at shinners and provos but basically anyone with a republican outlook . Harris and the Keating branch in RTE prided themselves on being able to "sniff out a nationalist at 50 paces" and ensured only a pro British slant appeared in all news items and current affairs programming .

For example after his expose on the Dublin Monaghan bombings which aroused the wrath of conor cruise Joe Tiernan never worked for RTE again .

Anyone measuring support for militant republicans by totting up votes for Sinn Fein is living in cloud cuckoo land . A campaign simply could not have lasted for 30 years with the support of only 2% of the country . All types of people from a wide variety of political backgrounds gave varying degrees of support , passive , sympathetic and active throughout all stages of the struggle .

The likes of yourself would quite happily keep this country under the thumb of Harris , OBrien , Ned Garvey and the heavy gang . A country whose capital can be bombed by the British with massive loss of life without a whimper of protest . Whose police media and politicians will cover it up for them and demonise the victims even . The Dublin Monaghan families werent just betrayed and ignored they were harassed by the branch as well .

Thats the sick society you are supporting in your west Brit ranting . You belong in the dustbin of history with the rest of your nonsense .

by DF Sun Dec 18, 2005 15:18

"What about the Dublin and Monaghan bombings that Protestants bombed?"

It wasn't protestants,it was loyalists.You cannot paint both with the same brush...

I will protest this march,but not with RSF.They are as bad.No to imperialism,that is why I will attend.

by kintama Sun Dec 18, 2005 18:16

John might perhaps prefer the tolerance displayed for freedom of speech at Burntollet to a counter demonstration which as I understand it would not prevent a march taking place. Sean the march will not be a neutral victims parade. Frazer only sees victims of Republicans (check out his FAIR website) the 'innocent victims' he wants to highlight were mostly members of the RUC and the UDR one of the most vicious loyalist murder gangs ever set up. It is perfectly legitimate to protest against the hypocrisy of a group portraying dead RUC/UDR victims as innocent while totally ignoring the victims put to death at the hands of,and through the direction of , members at all ranks of these organisations. The statement of RUC loyalist John Weir about the activities of the RUC and UDR in the South Armagh area is telling. A number of Frazers innocents were deeply involved in the murder of nationalists whilst serving members of the RUC and UDR. Actions which by the way received the blessing of RUC Chief Supt Harry Breen.
On a lighter note it seems likely that the Labour Party will be holding an Easter Rising parade given that they have embraced 'extreme nationalist socialism'. The NI Labour Forum commenting on the proposed multi sports stadium at the Long Kesh site have come up with some subversive comments which a paranoid Minister might see as a threat to the security of the state. The Labour group point out that :-
- British New Labour do not possess any mandate ,holding not as much as a single vote to its name in Northern Ireland;
- NI is definitely not a 'nation' but is rather politically a semi-detached region of the UK state;
- branding the new stadium as 'national' is determinedly divisive.
Looks a bit like Labour and Rabbitte are trying to reclaim the mantle of Republicanism from Fine Gael and Mc Dowell. As the theme at future Easter Rising parades will involve displays of military hardware Rabbitte might have to contact a few old friends to dig out some of the Stickie materiel buried in the thatch.

by Southern Prod(oh and like Wolfe Tone, republican) Sun Dec 18, 2005 19:50

barry said: "Anyone measuring support for militant republicans by totting up votes for Sinn Fein is living in cloud cuckoo land . A campaign simply could not have lasted for 30 years with the support of only 2% of the country . All types of people from a wide variety of political backgrounds gave varying degrees of support , passive , sympathetic and active throughout all stages of the struggle ."

Therefore these people you talk about Barry, these supporters, are responsibile for supporting the Le Mon bomb, the Droppin well bomb, the Eniskillen bomb, the Warrington bomb and an endless list of similar acts of "war", or war crimes if you want to name them for what they are.

This holier than thou rhetoric from R.S.F and it's supporters is not only laughable it is insulting , insulting to the memory of the countless innocent civilians murdered by these war crimes and insulting to the vast majority of Irish citizens who neither sanctioned these actions nor supported them.

We are all well informed as to the criminal activities of the R.U.C, U.D.R, special branch,MI5 and to the deaths they caused through their shoot to kill policies and their management of loyalist terror gangs. However, let us not forget that there were serious war crimes committed by both sides.

The difference today is that it is only the tiny, yes Barry TINY minority who continue to support R.S.F and it's military wing C.I.R.A who despite the stated wishes of the vast majority of residents on this island insist that they have a right to continue to perpetrate war crimes. R.S.F gather regularly in Parnell Sq, in public, and are allowed to do so despite the fact that they include in their ranks war criminals and despite the fact that they claim the right to continue to murder innocent civilians.

If the Orange Order are to be banned on the basis of the comments stated so far on this thread then R.S.F should also be banned if one is to follow logically the arguments.

by pat c Sun Dec 18, 2005 20:07

the orange order shouldnt be banned nor should it be prevented from marching in dublin. but it shouldnt be wrlcomed either. a peaceful counter picket is in order. if frazer was serious then he would just have relatives and victims marching with their bannrrs. having OO banners and union jacks is a provocation.

by Jerry Sun Dec 18, 2005 21:37

The Orange Order are the biggest sectarian biggots I've ever seen. If they aren't allowed proceed with their parade, the respond by attacking the RUC/PSNI lines with gunfire, blast bombs, petrol bombs and so on....Now they want to force another Loyalist parade, this time on Dublin soil. Well, they can get stuffed as far as I am concerned. They know they are not wanted with their marches here and need to stop it.

by Barry Mon Dec 19, 2005 04:23

you are saying that because the British government has superior electoral support ( despite not even standing for election anywhere on this island ) that its atrocities have more support , are somehow more lawful ? . You are clearly saying that crimes whether accidental or deliberate , by republicans are somehow worse than the mass deliberate murders of the british controlled death squads ? Theres a difference between Dublin Monaghan and the Droppin well because the British government has votes ? 11 members of an occupying army were killed in the Droppin well . In fact they were droppin well . Dublin Monaghan was a deliberate war crime by the British , it was no accident . There was no faulty warning .

I neither support , nor am I a member of RSF , but I notice you have chosen this thread to spout hypocrisy and not the one where i have named members of the crown forces responsible for mass murder . Your arguments logical conclusion is that because the british forces are acceptable so too are their war vcrimes . either your a hypocrite or you belong on frazers parade .

by southern prod(and irish republican!) Mon Dec 19, 2005 07:14

Try reading my post again.......now where do I say ANY of what you attribute to me? I am simply making the point that it is laughable for a bunch of war criminals and thugs to go about denouncing anyone, and that in fact the R.S.F are as reprehensibile as the orange order and that if the orange order should be banned from dublin then so should R.S.F.

No where did I say that the war crimes committed by the ruc/udr/brits/brit managed loyalist gangs were any less contemptable than those committed by so called republicans. What I said was: Thery are equally as bad as each other and it is an insult for the likes of R.S.F/cira to seek to have anyone banned.

So when you and the rest of the supporters of dissident republicanism (that means 32csm as well barry!)decide to go into the gory details of the shankill butchers lets not forget the women and children that lay dying on the streets of eniskillen on a sunday afternoon when the war criminals of the republican movement decided to strike for irish freedom by blowing(deliberately) innocent civilians to bits.

Now perhaps you would like to justify that?and le mon, and omagh, and warrington and the countless republicans who were shot as informers because their faces didnt fit.

People in glasshouses barry, people in glasshouses.

by Jerry Mon Dec 19, 2005 13:28

Orangmen are not welcome here in Dublin. You could say that Dubliners are being forced to accept their sectarian parade whether they like it or not. There should be a referendum on who wants their march here and who doesnt. I guarantee you that most people would say NO and by rightly so.

by Erin go Bragh Mon Dec 19, 2005 14:23

If you support the right to march freely, as I do, then you also must support the right to protest. Unlike most parades in the north, that are down through estates and roads where catholic communities live, this orange parade is in a city centre. Who really gives a toss?

If it was down through a community neighbourhood, then it would be a different matter. Would love to see the Orange Order try going through Ballyfermot or the likes!!

If I lived in Dublin, I would insist in being able to go about my business, shopping etc.

Normally if I come across these type of parades by the Orange order (Klu-klux-Klan), I just go over to the edge of the kerb and turn my back and stand for the duration of the parade....The bottom line is that the Orange Order is a sectarian organisation that should be squeezed into oblivion. These idiots claim to be religious, but they are only happy if they are ramming it up the catholic people.

by Another Southern Prod Mon Dec 19, 2005 14:46

PSF put back the likelihood of unification for decades with their actions. I have relations in the North who would be SDLP voters today and be pro-UI if the Provos had not gone of the offensive; I recognise the right of Nationalists to defend themselves when no-one else would, but going on the offensive and claiming to be acting in the name of irish Republicanism when it was counterproductive to do so was stupid. those loyalists that are marching are probably doing it for all the wrong reasons; but I recognise their right to assembly as long as they don't have OO banners. But we must remember that convincing these same working class Prods is THE KEY to a UI; if we rekindle the flame of Protestant Republcianism in their hearts, we will ahve a UI. The likes of my fellow party member Martin Mansergh, and in the past Childers and Hyde before him held the flame, we must now pass it North. And the only way to do that is to show were are pluralist and totally dispell the 'Rome Hule' myth from their minds.

by Jerry Mon Dec 19, 2005 16:48

The Orangemen are not wanted here with their sectarian marches. We are not going to stop objecting to this sectarian parade which bidaway displays UVF/ UDA/ LVF banners advocating illegal terrorist organisation(s).

How about inviting a pro-George Bush parade through Dublin too? A parade which justifies the occupation of Iraq, Palestine, and our six counties? This is the kind of thing u'r encouraging by welcoming these Orange Lunatics onto Dublin soil. You could say that u'r trying to force this parade on Dublin Streets whether Dubliners like it or not.

Shut up please. U'r makin an absolute fool of yourself by inviting a Sectarian Parade which the majority of people would not want on their streets. We have seen the recent Belfast riots that cost over 16 million Euro when Loyalists unleashed Road blocks, Shop destructions, attacks on public property, car hijackings, attacks on Nationalist homes and I could go on.

by Sideshowbob Mon Dec 19, 2005 17:03

this bigot march will be attacked....

by democrat Mon Dec 19, 2005 17:10

This is great stuff. You guys want a united Ireland - ie some kind of liberty and democracy for all. All, it would appear from most of your comments here, apart from people who disagree with you.

The orange order is a bigoted sectarian organisation, BUT - its members have a right to their views, to express them, to argue for themn, to protest for them and - yes - to march in their support. I don't agree with their right to march willy nilly around RC areas in the North, but a city centre is a very different proposition.

The logic of this is to ban it outright - which would have the obvious effect of intensifying the commitment of its members and making them martyrs. As to the point made above (ie would you support a George Bush supporters march in Dblin?): again, George Bush is an imperialist bastard, but if some deluded individual in Dublin wants to stage a march in his honour, it is his or her democratic right. Democracy must mean that you defend the right of people with whom you disagree - intensely - to publicly demonstrate and argue for their views.

The alternative is - well, fascism.

by Jerry Mon Dec 19, 2005 17:33

Well, lets put it this way. Nationalists are NOT allowed to march in England with placards advocating the IRA or real IRA. That is a fact. Yet, the relaxed and easygoing Dublin Government seems to have no problem with allowing Orangemen march with banners advocating the UVF and advocating killers like Michael Stone or Johnny 'mad dog' Adair. There should have been restrictions put on this parade, although it should have been banned.

It goes with the saying: The more you get, the more you want'.

The Orangemen will fit in well with this saying if we give them the slighest leeway. Of course, should they will be blocked by protesters in their path at this Parade they will probably respond by their usual methods. I.e attcking the Protesters with violence. Orange Parades in Dublin never happened before. Why allow them now?

by Barry Mon Dec 19, 2005 17:48

its a UDA/UVF RUC , UDR march , with some orange bigots thown in for good measure . The British authorities banned Willie Frazer and FAIR/ Loveulster from parading through Belfast city centre in October , confining them to a park on the Shankill. That its being let through Dublin is a disgrace.

These same people caused mayhem in Belfast only a few months ago . These people believe they have the right to blocade Catholic chapels , Catholic primary schools and protest at the blessing of the graves at Carnmoney cemetery . Loveulster supporters have smashed Catholic headstones and threatened to dig up Catholic graves in the past few months . They are facist , racist sectarian bigots pure and simple

No Pasaran

by Curious Mon Dec 19, 2005 17:51

"That its being let through Dublin is a disgrace."

Do we have any proof that it is being let through?

by pat c Mon Dec 19, 2005 17:55

frazer & company have the right to march. we have the right to hold a peaceful counter picket. possibly the best place to do this is at the GPO.

if frazer is stupid enough to bring orange banners and union jacks on this demo, then all the better. it will show that the demo has little to do with victims and everything to do with asserting orange power in dublin.

if there are banners of loyalist murrderers on the march then we should not freak out. this would totally destroy any credibility frazer has in the south and will result in a hostile public and media response.

given that the march is supposed to be about victims, making a mockery of it with clowns etc might not be a good idea. we could however play mindgames with frazer. i'm going to carry a placard naming the first and last RUC members killed in the "troubles": Victor Arbuckle(1969) and Francis O'Reilly (1998), both killed by loyalists.

let frazer march to leinster house and lets hold our protest at the iconic GPO.

by Sideshowbob Mon Dec 19, 2005 17:57

If you are against this UFF/UVF march, then unite to defeat it in numbers..

by Liam McLoughlin Mon Dec 19, 2005 18:07 Louth.

We will demonstrate against this sectarian parade.

by Barry Mon Dec 19, 2005 18:21

and Im bringing mates. GPO is a wonderful suggestion .

Bastards cant get away with this , especially not after Carnmoney cemetery .

by southern prod Mon Dec 19, 2005 18:22

and I suppose RSF/Cira are republican socialists reminiscent of those who fought Franco?

Get a grip, Barry. RSF are neither republicans nor socialists they are Facists just like Franco.

Adelante! as the Rev. Robert Hilliard would have said!!!

by southern prod Mon Dec 19, 2005 18:33

Actually you are wrong. Although Mckenna was in that area at that time. He was a member of S.F!!!(o'hanlon/mcmahon cumann)

And, yes, Loughgall was a war crime. It was an operation planned to kill. Wounded men were shot in the face as they lay on the ground.

Yes, I was there. And I am not alone in turning my back on the butchering of women and children, the vast majority of those who were there have done the same through both an S.F ard Fheis and an Army convention. You and your sad buddies in RIRA are the tiny minority who didn't, embittered old men leading idealsitic misguided young fools.

Since you seem incapable of dealing with the points raised and have to resort to attempting to label me as a paedophile there is little point in discussing anything.

The truth barry, you can't handle the truth.

(oh, and by the way I am actually a protestant, tipping my hat to neither london nor rome!!!!)

by What do RSF believe? Mon Dec 19, 2005 18:47

I can see hard core marxists complaining about RSF s socialism, as RSF are not at all marxist, but claim they re un republican or even "fascist" is either showing complete ignorance of what Republicanism is or revealing idealogical hostility to it. I've included some info about them below from their website, thought it might be needed here where those who know so ignorant feel bigger by smearing those they clearly know so little about. its not like there aren't legitamate complaints to be said about RSF, but lets keep them in the realm of reality ffs.

by pat c Mon Dec 19, 2005 20:24

i still think a peaceful demo is the best way to show them up. lets remind them of ruc men killed by loyalists, that'll really frazzle their minds.

by Jerry Mon Dec 19, 2005 21:46

If we are to demonstrate, we must have a a 'peaceful' sit down protest blocking their pathway (the road) if they are to be reminded of the RUC men they killed. But if they turn nasty, we will turn nasty. Only fair, isnt it?

by RSF - RSF Mon Dec 19, 2005 22:06 Head Office: 223 Parnell Street, Dublin 1, Ireland Tel: 872 9747 Fax: 872 9757

RSF news - Republican Sinn Fein - http://rsf.ie
Press Release/Preas Ráiteas


26-County Administration shows contempt for nationalist people
Statement by Republican Sinn Fein Vice President Des Dalton

At a time when Nationalist people have been driven from their homes in
the teeth of a Loyalist campaign of sectarian hate, the decision to
allow such a march in Dublin displays the contempt that the 26-County
state has for the nationalist people of the Six Counties. The relatives
of those murdered at the hands of British state directed death squads
on the streets of Dublin must surely question the motives of a 26-
County administration, which allows such a spectacle to go ahead, on
the same streets where innocent men, women and children died at the
hands of British-backed Loyalist death squads in the early 1970s.
Successive 26-County Administrations have failed to investigate these
deaths, and files relating to them have disappeared in suspicious
circumstances. In allowing such a march on the streets of Dublin the
26 County administration is effectively turning its back on all of
those, north and south who have suffered at the hands Loyalist death
squads and their British masters.

Ends.

http://www.rsf.ie

Republican Sinn Fein

Head Office: 223 Parnell Street, Dublin 1, Ireland
Tel: 872 9747 Fax: 872 9757 e-mail: saoirse@iol.ie

Belfast Office: 229 Falls Road, Belfast, BT12 6FB, Co Antrim, Ireland.
Tel: 9031 9004 Fax: 9031 9863

by Jerry Mon Dec 19, 2005 22:48

Its true, they are turning their backs on our brothers in the six counties. But how do we stop this Parade? Its being forced on our streets whether we like it or not. It just maddens me to see what idiots we have employed in office that ignorantly grant permission for an anti-Irish Parade to go ahead. Just keeps getting more stupid. When the hell are people goin to wake up?! Can't they see that such a Parade is NOT WANTED by the Irish People on Dublin Soil??

by Barry Mon Dec 19, 2005 23:44

I agree totally that there should be a peaceful protest . I also reckon blocking their route , peacefully , is the right thing to do .

And I also know that these evil fuckers go bananas when their route is blocked , so they may attack people . Which definitely means a sit down protest would be a good idea .

by southern prod Tue Dec 20, 2005 00:27

and who mandated you to speak on behalf of the Irish people jerry?

or the people of Dublin for that matter...........

by kintama Tue Dec 20, 2005 00:52

A sit down protest may not be advisable if Eddie Mc lwaine is on parade with his Lodge. The sight of all those fenian throats just a pull of the hair and a slice of the throat away might be too much for him. He is not the type of boy you want to lose control in a crowded street.
Given that Willie will be coming from the homeland where the Dublin and Monaghan bombs were stored the Minister for Justice might want to monitor where his mates park their cars.
A final word of advice for those intending to protest, listening to Willie Frazer for more than five minutes can seriously damage your health. Fine examples of his eloquence can be found on his Families Acting for (Some) Innocent Victims website. It makes the Love Ulster website look like an Alliance election leaflet.

by Visitor Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:40

Why not have an anti-Irish (whatever that is) march in Dublin? Do you believe in democracy or not?

Most posters on this thread read like the rednecks in the USA who have made it a criminal offence to burn the US flag.

Bunch of fascists dressing themselves up as 'patriots'.
You're determined to give these people more publicity than they deserve and bring the rest of the Dublin people into disrepute. Why not just stay at home, or whatever else you were going to do on Jan 28th.

BTW isn't that the date of the Bloody Sunday march in Derry this year?

by Sideshowbob Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:55

Have you any idea of what you are talking about you fool or are you so caught up in your bullsh*t PC liberal world to have any cop on anymore. You are out of touch and out of your mind.

Oh i see now - You must'nt have taken your medication today!!

This march is an anti irish, pro loyalist march by illegal/banned organisations, flying provocative banners.

Sinn Fein etc are not allowed do this in britain so why should the equivalent be allowed in Ireland, or has this country fallen into the hands of 'british spies' at all levels who dictate how you liberal stupid muppets think...

by rob Tue Dec 20, 2005 13:29

It is not Anti Irish, the orange order consider themselves Irish men who are british, just like someone can be english and british or welsh and british etc

by sing along Tue Dec 20, 2005 13:32

Heres some lyrics of an Irish traditional song you can sing, just to feel part of:

it was bright and it was beautiful
and the colours were so fine
it was worn at Derry , Aughrim,
eniskillen and the Boyne.
Well my father wore it long ago
in the grand old days of yore
so its in o'connelll street i'll wear
the sash my father wore.....

go on lads, buy yourselves a lambeg and join in!!!!

by Visitor Tue Dec 20, 2005 14:02

Sideshowbob is a perfect example of the idiotic moron i was alluding to in an earlier post. Thanks Sideshow.

As for the previous poster, the Sash is a lovely traditional tune, as is Derrys Walls, The Oul Orange Flute and Dollys Brae to name but a few. All Irish and British, its a pity we don't hear them more often down here.

by Jerry Tue Dec 20, 2005 14:14

Just answer this: Are you trying to justify the occupation of our six counties? It seems like you are.

Visitor has pointed out that this is an ANTI-IRISH Sectarian parade. How do you not understand that? ordinary Dubliners do not want this Parade forced upon their streets.

I am goin to help out and do whatever is necessary to block this parade through a sit down protest in their path.

by orange and proud Tue Dec 20, 2005 14:16

quote from the above link:

I would refer to Sir James Craig, the first Prime Minister of Northern Ireland and a man often unfairly portrayed as narrow and partisan. In 1926, after the recognition of Northern Ireland in the 1925 Agreement, he spoke in a way echoed by modern unionism:

"For future time the North and the South have got to live together as neighbours and the prosperity of Northern Ireland does undoubtedly affect the prosperity of Southern Ireland and a peaceful and prosperous Southern Ireland reflects on the North"

"Therefore, a man is short-sighted indeed and no patriot to his country who would see one portion standing out prosperous, rich, happy and content if, on the other side, he was to see despondency, poverty and going down the hill instead of going up. So it is for the Government of the South and the Government of the North to turn their hands rather from the matters which have divided them in the past to concentrate on the matters which affect the welfare of the people in their own area with a view that the whole of Ireland, and not one part of it alone, may be prosperous."

by rob Tue Dec 20, 2005 14:17

Just how is it anti Irish? expalin please. I am an ordinary Dub and I welcome the march. You dont speak for me or any other dub but yourself. Dont attribute your bigoted opinions to the rest of us

by rob Tue Dec 20, 2005 14:19

Edward Carson was also a dub

by Sideshowbob Tue Dec 20, 2005 14:20

Its the festive season, so why not throw out the compliments.. unfortunately i am not familar with your named playlist but going by the names, i don't think i would be socialising in places where they are played.. Will they be selling these cd's on the day??

by Sideshowbob Tue Dec 20, 2005 16:42

I assume that level is low then, rob, Sir high and all mightiness.. you are the one who says you are an ordinary dub who 'welcomes' this march. You are welcoming a mixed bunch of ex con loyalists, loyalists, orangemen etc etc, to march through the streets of dublin as a big 2 fingers to dubs etc. A similar march by republicans/nationalists is banned in britain. Its sick to think you welcome them, are you going to go out and give them tea.. Irish people are turning into a disgrace, the way they appease these unionists all the time. everyone is afraid to say boo to them. Its walking on egg shells with them and i'm getting very p*ssed off with it. Why can't people remember all the bad they've done but they'll always be too f*cking self righteous to ever admit they did anything wrong...

by Jerry Tue Dec 20, 2005 23:45

NO to a Sectarian Parade,
NO to forcing it upon people,
NO to the displaying of UVF/ UDA banners,
NO to violence,
NO to Troublemakers,

(NO to an Orange Parade)

by observer2 Wed Dec 21, 2005 01:15

whats with all the personal abuse on this thread? Maybe it would be an idea to read the posting guidelines. It is one thing to differ with someones opinion,it's something else to get into personal attacks.

It is noticable that most of the personal abuse is coming from the very people who call the OO bigots!!!

by Observer3 Wed Dec 21, 2005 01:34

Did you ever hear of 'sock puppetry'? You seem to be quite good at this by what you previously said. If a Parade is sectarian, its ones duty to point this out. You should keep your support for sectarian parades to yourself and stop harrassing those who do not want such a Parade forced upon their City's Streets.

by oberver2 Wed Dec 21, 2005 04:21

no, explain sock puppetry, it is a bit vague to me, unlike the posting guidelines which are very clear.

As for keeping my opinions to myself, well that suggestion says a lot about you.

by Jerry Wed Dec 21, 2005 13:16

Orangemen are not welcome in Dublin,
They are unable to control themselves,
They go on the Rampage if they are told 'NO',
They consider their sectarian parades a 'fundamental right',
They think they can parade the Garvaghy Road without resistance,
They are living in a dream land,

Dont allow them on your streets.

by Sideshowbob Wed Dec 21, 2005 13:30

These scum will not be allowed walk away having made a complete fool of Ireland by having a victory parade down our main throughfare. The equivalent situation would not be allowed in any other country.. This will be defeated..

by Jerry Wed Dec 21, 2005 13:51

Exactly. The equivalent of this parade wouldnt be allowed in any other country. The fools we have in office that gave the green light for this march are unfit for office.

Why are the Orangemen often referred to as the orange order? Surely, the word 'order' goes against their principle when they're unable to keep it during their violent confrontations with the PSNI/RUC if they are not allowed to proceed with a Sectarian Parade.

by Dan - A Dublin youth Organiser Wed Dec 21, 2005 20:34

The Orange Order is coming to Dublin,
they are not welcome.
we,the youth of Dublin will show our solidarity for the Occupied Six Counties by bringing hundreds of young protesters onto the street and driving the basterds out of our city.

Tiochfidh ár lá!!

by Jerry Wed Dec 21, 2005 21:03

Yes we will do whatever is necessary to stop this parade unless we're Loyalists or Sectarian nutters. We need as many people out on that day as possible to re-inforce the protest as well as a sit down protest (blocking their path).

by southren Prod2 Thu Dec 22, 2005 18:48

I dislike the order, its an exscuse to propagate historical conflict in the guise of historical rememberance. But i also hate the counter manifestations it generates. Both are the rebelions of the middle class, and ignorantisms. Best solution would be for a rail and bus strike, to stop both sides from attending, but i doubt that will happen.
I will avoid the city center on the 28th, in order for the two sides to kill each other off, tho i doubt the world will be that lucky

by Barry Thu Dec 22, 2005 19:16

The real plan

Orangies plan day out in Killiney

by Eoghan Mac Muir Chú Fri Dec 23, 2005 21:16 rinagaeilge at hotmail dot com

These sectarian jaffacakes are not marching on our streets not because they are protestants but that they a bigots. Anyone who calls the people who are against the Outrageous Oranges Fascists doesnt really see whats going on. I call for sit dowm protests and if needs be the liberal application of oranges and other Orange produce.

by kintama Sat Dec 24, 2005 19:31

The Sunday Tribune reports that Michael McDowell is an Orange Order hero. He is to be asked to speak at the rally by Willie Frazer along with Ian Paisley ,now thats the type of company McDowell would be comfortable in.
No word yet if Eddie McIwaine and the rest of his Butchers Lodge will be marching but he wont have to worry now about being fingered by the Minister as a threat to state security. Frazer is unconcerned about any protest as he is sure his 'guards' will do their job . The Minister might want to check how many of these chaps are members of loyalist paramilitary groups but I dont think we should hold our breath waiting on him to do so.
Michael might even fancy the job himself as it would give him the chance to actually stick the boot into a few fenians.

by rooster Sun Dec 25, 2005 08:00

The relatives of those murdered at the hands of British state directed death squads on the streets of Dublin


I don't think so!!

by democrat Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:51

Many of those who are working themselves into a frenzy on this issue are moved to do so because the marchers are described as bigots. Thus one writer above describes them as 'jaffacakes' and then fulminates against bigots.

Well, if it is ibogtry that is the problem such folk could stage a protest much closer to home and indeed without even leaving their living room. All they have to do is look in the mirror, hold up a placard denouncing bigotry, and a very effective protest would be had by all. (The same people who talk blithely about jaffacakes get very offended when OO members talk about 'fenians'....)

The whole point of democracy is that it applies also to the people you disagree with. yes, even to people you hate - even to bigots. I disagree with their views, and in fact I disagree with the views of writers on this site - but you have the right to be idiots, to express idiotic views, to be rude, offensive and moronic if you wish. It is your democratic right to be imbeciles.

And I defend the democratic right of these people to march in Dublin too. It is cxalled consistency.

You are issuing a very poor advertisement to people as to what your much vaunted united Ireland would actually look like in practice

by Eoghan mac muir Chú Sun Dec 25, 2005 15:36 rinagaeilge@hotmail .com

I'd love to be called a Fenian. It's a pity you don't know what it means. And by the by I don't want a United Ireland.

by rinagaeilge - No to Oranges Tue Dec 27, 2005 00:11 rinagaeilge at hotmail dot com

Can I get email adresses please. It seems like a lot of talk but no doing or action. Drop me a line or whatever!


Ca bhfuil an teolas ar fad níl ach baothchaint ansin uaibh. Cauthfear eagru agus ullamhu don lá mór. ANM bhféafadh sibh bhúr seoltaí ríomh phost a chur sios???

by here Tue Dec 27, 2005 22:44

Republican Sinn Fein

Head Office: 223 Parnell Street, Dublin 1, Ireland
Tel: 872 9747 Fax: 872 9757 e-mail: saoirse@iol.ie

Belfast Office: 229 Falls Road, Belfast, BT12 6FB, Co Antrim, Ireland.
Tel: 9031 9004 Fax: 9031 9863

by Martin Mon Feb 20, 2006 13:56

I look forward to the day when the Orange Order will be welcome to parade down the thoroughfares of our capital city.
Unfortunately I do not believe those days are here.
The Orange Order are yet again parading in areas with the avowed intention to cause offence which they dress up in calls for tolerance.
They are marching to celebrate the overthrow of King James by King Billy. I find this more sad than offensive as if 1690 is the last victory that you can claim maybe it's time to lose the historical baggage? Care for a rematch Boyne valley 2006 July 12th????)

They are marching to assert their right to march the highway. I find this offensive, the highway in question was paid for by Irish citizens. I have no desire to find a group of octagenarian apprentice boys-brainwashed children-respectable business men etc.etc obstructing the highways around Dublin. These people do not permit catholics to join their organizations.

They seek tolerance, yet preach intolerance.

If they march unchallenged it will weaken the position of communities in the north under pressure to permit these sectarian bigots coat trail through their districts.

Suggest a peaceful dignified protest is held and that an Irish Republican Colour Party be provided to lead them through the streets.... so that they understand that they march behind the tricolour and not over it.

by Sharon - Individual Mon Feb 20, 2006 19:08

Some of those of us opposed to this loyalist parade are meeting up at the Parnell Monument (beside the Ambassador) at 10 (ten) am on the morning of Saturday 25th for a peaceful demonstration against the sectarian nature of the Parade organisers .

All welcome !

Sharon.

by redjade Mon Feb 20, 2006 20:00

I'm a bit confused. you say this will be a 'Counter-demonstration' yet you also say 'All welcome!'

a bit of a contradiction, no?

I still think you will have more success just making fun of them...

'Joke 'em - if they can't take a fuck'
http://indymedia.ie/article/73452#comment131660

by Sharon - Individual Mon Feb 20, 2006 21:50

"Some of those of us opposed to this loyalist parade are meeting up at the Parnell Monument (beside the Ambassador) at 10 (ten) am on the morning of Saturday 25th for a peaceful demonstration against the sectarian nature of the Parade organisers .

All welcome ! "

If that does'nt 'do it' for you , then come along on the morning itself and I will explain further !

Sharon .

by Southern Protestant Tue Feb 21, 2006 01:05

''no to oranges''

do you really think its patriotic to regard people as less irish than you based on their religion. Look at your own dogmatic secterian views before you start giving out about the orange order.

by street face paint - (now illegal) Tue Feb 21, 2006 01:47

then you'll have no problems when the face paint comes to town.

dont just paint your face!

by Sharon - Individual. Tue Feb 21, 2006 09:57

" do you really think its patriotic to regard people as less irish than you based on their religion. "

-Never once in any of my posts concerning this (or any other issue) did I use the word "religion" . You invent a ploy by which you can 'have a go' at my political position .
You have already lost the argument by doing so .

Sharon .

by helpful Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:42

here are a few suggestions.

1) paint the kerbs & houses green white and orange.
2) paint kill billy on the ground along the route or indeed just stencil him.
3) dress up as kathurlick clerics (but obviously nothing too military) and line the way.
4) lobby the council or government to ban the playing of drums in public spaces and call it "civic".
5) goto the Boyne that day instead and do a re-enactment but this time king Seamus wins.
6) ally with the hare krishna devotees and ask them to lend the big wagon.
7) ask the Irish charlatans (Joycean academics) to do a reading of orangemen and orangewomen in literature paying attention to the accents and broadcast it on 200gw speakers.

Coz I'll be honest I don't think there's much change of the micro-republican ultra traditional rsf bunch getting their colour party out to march ahead of them complete with the sunglasses.

says it all.

by malachy steenson Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:36

As Republicans seeking the unity of Cathholic, Protestant and Dissenter in the common name of Irishmen we should be welcoming our fellow Irishmen down to the Capital City of the island where they have the right in common with all other Irishmen to protest at the seat of Government. They at long last having recognised Dublin as the Capital.

by TIOCFAIDH AR LA Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:39 perseverance at eircom dot net

What time are RSF meeting up?

by Pat O'Brien Tue Feb 21, 2006 16:26

McDowell is a reactionary and the Orange Order are bigots - they belong together. He is the sort of taig the Orangemen can tolerate.

Friend of bigots, racists and reactionaries everywhere

by Sharon - Individual Tue Feb 21, 2006 19:35

If you feel that strongly that RSF are wrong to hold a counter-demonstration (Parnell Monument , 10 AM , Saturday 25th) then may I 'suggest' that you organise a ' Welcome , Fellow Loyalist ' Committee and line-up in O'Connell Street , with or without your sunglasses , waiving your Union Jack flag .

Or would such a group be even more of a "micro group" than the RSF demonstration , do you think ... ?

Sharon .

by TIOCFAIDH AR LA Wed Feb 22, 2006 15:03

I see the 32 County Sovereignty Committee won't be there either. So that's them and Sinn Fein and other "Republican" groups that won't be in attendance. All the better for RSF. Maybe they'll get the recognition they deserve .

TIOCFAIDH AR LA

by andalucian - Irish andalucian support comitee Wed Feb 22, 2006 15:11

But Don't worry. with a four million strong colour party its only a matter of international solidarity before the (50,000 minimum 70,000 maximum) protestants of ireland get the message and change themselves. Then we can start on the chinese who can't say "wee" properly.

by Sharon - Individual Wed Feb 22, 2006 16:34

Where in any of my posts did I refer to either 'Protestants' or 'Chinese' ?
You appear to be attempting to divert this thread onto a separate issue - probably because you cannot deal with the issue at hand .
And by the way - 'andalucian' is spelt 'andalusian' . A ' wee ' mistake on your part !

Sharon.

by TIOCFAIDH AR LA Wed Feb 22, 2006 18:12

What are you you talking about? What the hell is the Irish Andalucian Support Committee and what has this or Chinese got to do with anything?

TIOCFAIDH AR LA

by Robroy - N/A Thu Feb 23, 2006 02:18 irelandupclose at hotmail dot com nenagh, co tipperary 086 0567193

Hello everybody.
I will be coming up from tipperary with a car load of guys to show our support for the counter demonstration in dublin this saturday 25th feb.

I know these are hard questions for anyone to answer, but

1: does anyone have any idea on roughly how many supporters we will have on our side?

2: We are meeting at parnell square at 10am, and the FAIR gang will be meeting there at 12 noon, will we be moving away from parnell square to make way for them? Or is the whole idea of using the same meeting point to create a flash-point?

I was thinkinf of bringing air-horns and whistles to make as much noise as possible to annoy any possible orange bands, is this a bad idea? I am thinking mayday 2004 all over again, ohh i cant wait, the excitement!!!

by Sharon - Individual Thu Feb 23, 2006 09:03

Hi Robroy !

It is not my place (or anyone elses place) to advise you on this , so the following is just a comment -

"I know these are hard questions for anyone to answer, but

1: does anyone have any idea on roughly how many supporters we will have on our side?
Indications are that there will be a few hundred of us present , in at least three different locations : the Parnell Monument , O' Connell Bridge and outside Leinster House .

2: We are meeting at parnell square at 10am, and the FAIR gang will be meeting there at 12 noon, will we be moving away from parnell square to make way for them? Or is the whole idea of using the same meeting point to create a flash-point?
The loyalists would , I feel , portray the presence of republican protestors at their meeting point as 'provocative' and that could give them the 'reason' they are looking for to start trouble . Which is why we are meeting at the Parnell Monument instead .

I was thinkinf of bringing air-horns and whistles to make as much noise as possible to annoy any possible orange bands, is this a bad idea?
Noise (and colour!) are , I feel , good ideas on this occasion .
Hope to see you there , Robroy !

Sharon .

by Patrick Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:54

Sideshowbob, you're hilarious. If you are so concerned about the actions of the loyalists, go up to Belfast and do something about it. Waffling in pubs down here and then turning up to marches (and here) to bleat your muppet tiocfaidh ar lar nonsense.

As democrats, we should just ignore/allow the march and show them up for the fools they are. They are counting on people like sideshowbob (the all action pub patriot) to turn up and conform to their daft notions of sectarianism.

by TIOCFAIDH AR LA Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:45

The most prominent part of this march will be the point where they reach the GPO and I don't need to reiterate as to why! I'll be waiting there and hopefully there'll be enough of us at that stage to stop them marching past!

TIOCFAIDH AR LA

by Patrick Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:58

Tiocfaidh ar lar, will you be waearing your shades and beret? If its overcast, you may run into things?

by Sideshowbob Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:24

Patrick, this march is an insult to the people of Dublin and Ireland. I am no armchair waffler, i live in Dublin and do not want a bunch of murdering loyalists coming down with their sertarian flags and songs to walk our historic streets and make a mockery of us. It is a march run by people with close links to loyalist murdering gangs, using a cover of peace and support for families of IRA violence as opposed to all violence as those murdered by unionists, loyalists and security forces obviously don't matter to these bigots.. Sinn fein are not allowed march in the uk so why should these evil people be allowed do likewise here and ram their bigotry down our throats on our own soil. Patrick you represent the pathetic stream of people in this country who are so caught up in your bullshit little sad world that you have lost all sense of being Irish, our history and when to draw the line with trying to be nice to unionists/loyalists. I feel sorry for you. Maybe you should go up north and see how these loyalists operate against the catholics and you might have a little bit more of an informed opinion instead of your pro mcdowell school of thought urine.....

by TIOCFAIDH AR LA Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:48

What exactly are you afraid of Patrick? Why are you so anti-Republican? And don't say you aren't cause if you weren't then you wouldn't be on this board saying what you're saying!

TIOCFAIDH AR LA

by Patrick Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:51

Bob,

It easy to see you are a chucky. First of all, quit telling me what is an insult and is not an insult to me.
Im Irish and i don't need you or any of your like to tell me what being Irish means. I certainly am not a McDowell supporter or a Loyalist lover (far from it) but by the same token. i do not subscribe to your glib we are all paddys together schtick either. Like it or not, your "united ireland" will have to accomodate the people you are protesting against, many who have done horrible things. Like it or not, you will have to accept that their political aspirations are not hallucinatory or a result of denying their "irishness". Finally, like it or not, you will have to accept that some of them just might, might have lost family in equally as tragic a way (and at the hands of equally murderous people) as Catholics. RSF are redundant and archaic. They have no mandate from "nationalists" or whatever you decide to call Irish people. Not that a lack of mandate have ever stopped them before. This is not a supportive messaage for loyalists . I hate the lot of them, IRA or loyalist, sanctimonious murderers telling me what i should feel as an Irishman. Your "politics" will ensure another generation of the same gridlock and hate, exercised from the safety of your armchair and pub.

by Patrick Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:55

TAL. i was being facetious, apologies. Should not joke about it. Just that the blood boiled when i saw the post first. The post before this outlines my position. I am anti republican but not right wing, anti-irish or indeed pro-mcdowell

by Sideshowbob Thu Feb 23, 2006 13:28

I am not a republican nor involved with RSF so as usual anyone who says Boo to your Unionist chums is labelled a republican, dissidant etc.. So typical of Ireland today and your growing west Brit type group who control the media now and fill ordinary people with your one sided biased tripe. I am meerly an average bloke with some cop on who sees this march as wrong and provocative and as being counter productive for all involved...

by Patrick Thu Feb 23, 2006 13:47

"My unionist chums" ...?

"west brit type group"..?

I'm not a West Brit. Im Irish and i'm certainly not a unionist. Apparantly people can be opposed to physical force nationalism, left wing and be fully Irish, mate. Do you need a seat after that shock?

Please keep on the topic. If you and others like you don't turn up to counter protest, the loyalists will consider the march to be a failure. They are as polictically defunct as RSF and equally without mandate for their mad schemes.

A few questions:

Do you honestly believe that normal non-loyalist protestant people are wrong to have some misgivings or bitterness about the IRA? Ones who are normal working class, non-"west brits" and who are not necessarily memebers of the Order or loyalist groups.

Have you ever lived in the North and met normal protestant people.?

Do you really believe that Irish nationalists have not carried out equally sectarian and horrible acts ("mistakes" or "collateral damage" ho ho hum) as loyalists?

Do you still believe that in 2006, the brits are the only obstacle to lasting peace either in the NI statelet or a united ireland?

Do you any beliefs or analysis about the future of the North apart from getting angry at "them'uns"?

by Sideshowbob Thu Feb 23, 2006 15:15

Letting these fools march unchallenged makes us look weak and gives them a signal to do more marches, in more places till they start saying they have a right to march everywhere they want. Just look at their carry on up north. Give them an inch and etc etc so it has to be nipped in the bud. Now to answer your questions, yes i've spent time up north and have met decent and human protestants..
They can have misgivings but should remember that they caused the situation through trying to impose an undemocratic aparthied society..
yes irish nationalists have carried out attacks as part of a war brought about by the protestant occupation of Irish land and treatment of catholics. The whole mess was caused by them and the British. If they never came here to take the land there would have been no conflict or are we ment to forget that now cause X amount of years has lapsed since they drove Irish people off their land??
Brits are not the problem so much anymore except they support the occupation, the unionists are and until the likes of paisley go and die there will be no proper solution. Its stalemate for the foreseeable future but letting them march down dublin streets provoking dubliners out shopping with their hate filled messages, is not what i call putting out the hand of peace so why should we let them. We owe them nothing so should not be appeasing them until they start showing us more respect instead of hate filled messages and outbursts..

by Patrick Thu Feb 23, 2006 18:42

Story bob, thanks for the reply.

From what you say, i gather that you mean:

Atrocities carried out by the IRA on normal citizens are OK cos they are in reaction to the colonization of Ireland and attacks on the Catholic population.

Normal protrestants cannot mount a critique of the actions of the IRA because their political ruling class have (and do) misruled Northern Ireland. Does this mean by the same token that people like yourself and myself could be held responsible for the actions of our polictal mandarins...Harney and Mcdowell!!?

Normal protestants have no right to hold differing politcial aspirations or to argue against nationalist aspirations because their ancestors were forcibly "planted" in NI hundreds of years ago. By this same token, should blacks or asians in the UK be denied meaningful politcal aspiration because they are recent settlers to the UK?

Should the recruitment of young working class men to republican paramilitary organisations as a result of murder and torture by the British state or Loyalists (indeed both) be any different to the recruitment of young protestants following republican bombings or sectarian murders?

How far back in history must we go until we decide to deny parity of politcial aspiration to a particular group?

Has any post-Thatcher brit adminsitration really wanted to hold on to NI as you say? Are they just constitutionaly bound there and afraid to provoke civil unrest that may spill back into UK again.? Are the brits really the problem? What stategic interest would the current labour government have in the statelet given that it is an exchequer black hole, blair is not currently reliant on unionist votes and most of the electorate in England dont give a shit about it.

Sorry for waffling bob, but unitl nationalists realise that applying the historical blame game and refusing to acknowledge protestant political aspirations will prolong the cause of the NI conflict, there will never be peace on this island.

by Barry Thu Feb 23, 2006 21:31

while Britiain occupies part of Ireland and denies national sovereignty therell never be peace .

Britain made sure during the GFA negotiations British sovereignty was non negotiable from the outset . Blair is on record as being a fervent admirer of Margaret Thatcher and a commited unionist to boot .

Rather than asking Irish people , who have no say in British policy whatsoever , why Britain continues to occupy part of the national territory it would be more productive to ask the British that question themselves . Britain is only "constitutionally obligated" by its own unwritten constitution ,. It could change it in the morning if it desired it so .

We dont need to go back in history . British occupation and denial of national sovereignty is a current political fact . All nations have a right to exercise national sovereignty over their national territory , not simply aspire to do so . The mechanism by which that aspiration has been denied and continues to be denied is a British one and an undemocratic one .

Willie Frazer , the UVF and UDA are not normal protestants by any stretch of the imagination . Normal protestants did not carry out mass murder on the streets of Dublin and have the Irish state cover it up for them . That should be pointed out to everyone when they march claiming victimhood .

by gurggle - I read every iota. Thu Feb 23, 2006 21:53

part of the very long process of peace between Britain & Ireland was the written declaration by HMG that it had no strategic interest in Northern Ireland. Obviously you weren't watching the reaction of the presbytarian church of Ireland. Odd, you're close enough to one of their churches everytime you go for walkies from the remembrance gardens. & since there are at least one million (a real million) people on the island of Ireland who consider their nationality as British or non-Irish, it would be interesting to see what your posters looked like. The people of Ireland were asked by simultaneous referenda whether or not they approved the documents and 3 strands. & they did by a majority.
Of course there were problems with that.
The British or Irish resident in Britain were not invited to vote in any referenda, and considering that more Irish live on the island of Britain than on the island of Ireland that would seem undemocratic would it not?

by Barry Thu Feb 23, 2006 22:16

And why do you make constant references to religion ? its utterly irrelevant to any meaningfu or progressive political discourse on this island ..

Because Britain says it has no strategic interest in Ireland it should be allowed to occupy it ? WOW . It also says that Irish people have no right to sovereignty in their own country . non negotiable .
denying the right of the people on this island to hold a single referendum is patently undemocratic .

by Sharon - Individual Thu Feb 23, 2006 22:25

" part of the very long process of peace between Britain & Ireland was the written declaration by HMG that it had no strategic interest in Northern Ireland."

Tony Blair stated otherwise -
" I believe in the United Kingdom . I value the Union . My agenda is not a united Ireland . None of us in this hall today , even the youngest , is likely to see Northern Ireland (sic) as anything but a part of the United Kingdom . That is the reality . "
(Tony Blair , speaking in Befast on May 16th , 1997.)

I presume you will now post back saying that you know he has changed his mind since then , and supply the relevant text (or link to same) to support a claim like that . Or perhaps you will tell us that Mr. Blair was simply 'playing politics' to suit the audience .
But no doubt you will attempt to excuse Mr. Blair , one way or the other .

Sharon.

by gurggle I read every iota Thu Feb 23, 2006 23:06

Blair is the antichrist. Dont trust the antichrist to give you a good friday agreement. but of course I do believe having read all your iotas that you weren't in favour of the GFA. But I referred to the statements draughted by the joint british irish government at downing street "the downing street declaration". We could ask the Irish side about it if he was still alive.
Just like we could ask the scottish side of constitutional reform about it if he was still alive.
Just like we could ask the man who knew about wmd about it, if he was still alive.
Amazing you're still alive.

by Sharon - Individual Thu Feb 23, 2006 23:42

You stated - " part of the very long process of peace between Britain & Ireland was the written declaration by HMG that it had no strategic interest in Northern Ireland. "

In my reply , I quoted the following comment from Tony Blair - " I believe in the United Kingdom . I value the Union . My agenda is not a united Ireland . None of us in this hall today , even the youngest , is likely to see Northern Ireland (sic) as anything but a part of the United Kingdom . That is the reality . "

.....which , I believe , proves your comment wrong .
You wrote (to me) - " Amazing you're still alive. "

Why does that "amaze" you ?

Sharon.

by robroy - N/A Fri Feb 24, 2006 04:18

Regarding the meeting point this saturday morning.
I am coming up from tipp with a few guys, but i am not familar with dublin.

Is Parnell square and Parnell monument the same thing???

If we meet there, will we be able to get ahead of the orange boys to try stop them in their path at the GPO?

by Sharon - Individual. Fri Feb 24, 2006 08:56

"Is Parnell square and Parnell monument the same thing??? "
The Parnell Monument is facing the Ambassador Cinema building - it is the last monument before you step-off O'Connell Street onto Parnell Street /Square .

"If we meet there, will we be able to get ahead of the orange boys to try stop them in their path at the GPO? "
I believe there are people meeting-up at the GPO at around 11.30 AM - others are gathering at the Parnell Monument at 10 AM and , as far as I know , people are also protesting on O'Connell Bridge and outside Leinster House .
Hope that is of some use to you !

Sharon .

by knives of megiddo Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:35

(where the Orange Order was founded). I'd like to know as I'll be travelling with my young nephew who normally does the reading for me, on account of my chronic myopia. I'd hate to confuse the monument with the other one to the victims of bird flu.

by BIG PRINT Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:39

show your nephew these 2 photos before you catch the bus to Dublin to have a go at the orange order. The first one is the monument to the victims of bird flu H5N1 which with usual foresight the Irish nation erected in the mid 1960s.
The other one has the latin quotation which roughly translated means "we won't let micro-republican rumps stop the progress of our nation to a stage where religiosity is forgotten and all kids can use chopsticks and write god is great in arabic, and help their elders with the spell check"

the monument to the victims of H5N1 dublin.

the latin quotation which escapes the myopic.

by Sharon - Individual Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:56

Thanks to the miracle of modern technology (and a little help from our 'Junior' !) I was able to trace the source of the above two posts :

Sharon .

Bad Fruit !

by TIOCFAIDH AR LA Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:29

Alrite Robroy!

I know there's a good few of us meeting at the GPO anyway. The Parnell monument is just up the road from it. You can see one when standing at the other. No harm in going to the monument and seeing what the craic is with RSF and what the plans are. Either way I reckon the GPO will be the flashpoint and thats where I intend ending up to stop these Jaffa Cakes. I think it's a good idea to have people at Leinster House too but I don't understand why there are so many different protest spots. I think we should all stick together and have one place i.e GPO where we refuse to let them march any further. Otherwise we will all be dispersed and there will be little chance of having any real effect. UNITE AND FREE IRELAND

TIOCFAIDH AR LA

by baby bear ruairi óg rogue rory - No to manipulation of Terror. Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:05

& Thats ok. Making your statement against Orangeism is ok. You're oviously an expert on Irish British relations. But what is not ok is manipulating the memories of 33 dead peoples' families, and the memories of 300 injured or maimed survivors and the countless others who were terrorised by the bombings of Dublin in the 1970s by allowing a tiny party to lay at long last a wreath on the day the Orange order comes to town.

That is not ok. That is rubbing salt into the wound.

It amounts to using Terror as a political weapon.
It is in fact psychologically just the same as Terrorism.
Perhaps thats the only game some people round here understand.

by Patrick Fri Feb 24, 2006 13:37

"
Is Parnell square and Parnell monument the same thing???"

Nope, a square generally denotes a square shpaed formation of buildings surrounding a garden or park.

A monument is more like a statue, you know, those stone yokes built to honour dead, often archaic, heroes.

by Patrick Fri Feb 24, 2006 13:45

Barry, are you trying to intelligently answer any of the questions that i posed.? Ruairi O Bradaigh seems to have hijacked your keyboard?

by Martin Dublin - The human race Fri Feb 24, 2006 14:50

As I stated previously I look forward to the day when the Orange Order can march through the streets of Dublin...... but that day is not here

The simple fact is that Mr Frazers stunt is simply a coat trailing exercise through the streets of Dublin. I listened to him this morning as he stated that 92% of the murders in sth Armagh were never solved..........

I have a solution... let him march through Crossmaglen and see if he can identify anyone instead of wasting his time in Dublin.

The Dublin & Monaghan bombings were never solved 100% of the participants escaped justice. Should the concerned citizens of Dublin march on Portadown were Jackson & Co with the connivance and logistical support of the BA mounted their operations?

Would it make the pain fade......salve the conscience........bring forth reconciliation.....usher in the day when we can put our painful past behind us...

Don't think so

I see the label Briish getting kicked about a lot. The reality is that the average British citizen is embarrassed by the activities and actions of the respective Orange Order and lodges and culture.

These people have no national root, they are like the recalcitrant child crying at the door of the only place that they are likely to be welcomed. This escapade is nothing more than a DUP stunt to stir up hatreds and push everyone back into their respective camps.

by Sharon - Individual Fri Feb 24, 2006 16:22

Patrick wrote (in a sneering fashion) -
" Nope, a square generally denotes a square shpaed formation of buildings surrounding a garden or park.

A monument is more like a statue, you know, those stone yokes built to honour dead, often archaic, heroes."

No need for that tone , 'Patrick' - the person who asked for directions is coming to Dublin from Tipperary and obviously does not know this city as well as some others do . Simple as that . I could be equally childish and ask if that Tipperary person knows how to spell the word 'shaped' . But I won't .

Sharon.

by TIOCFAIDH AR LA Fri Feb 24, 2006 16:23

This is one of the headlines on Eircom.net news today. Another example of 26 County Administration Press ignorance.

TIOCFAIDH AR LA

by TIOCFAIDH AR LA Fri Feb 24, 2006 16:29

Patrick hasn't got a clue what he is talking about. He is a sad little Jaffa who should be out marching alongside the cupcakes. Patrick what will you be wearing so I can aim for you specifically. What shape is a shpae? Is it ruond or is it suqare?

TIOCFAIDH AR LA

by Patrick Fri Feb 24, 2006 16:57

Jaffa? :0)

I'm not sure you exist Tiocfaidh? Is this a troll..

by hmmmm Fri Feb 24, 2006 17:56

What did Parnell mean? Was he talking about divorce? curry chips? chopsticks? keeping the whole shite going where bigots pipe bomb schools and apologists for murderers lay wreaths?

Getting the fascists out of nationalism and unionism is easy. = you lay the wreath first.

by Gordon - None Mon Mar 06, 2006 14:08

This was the first Orange march in Dublin since partition as far as I know and I feel that Willie Frazer and his friends feel they got a result. It is after all the 90th Anniversary of 1916. The timing was no accident.
These bigots are the reason we has the 30 year war in Ulster and now they want to bring a little trouble to the 26 Counties. I'm sure they are regretiing that they didn't start years ago. Civil war politics is certainly back on the agenda down here again after many years. Well done Willie and Co.
Definitely a result alright.
Gordon

by Ghandi of North Strand Mon Mar 06, 2006 15:31

Gordon

Fellow Irishmen of whatever persuasion were not the cause of 30 years of conflict. Conflict for the past 800 years has at its core the British Presence in Ireland. The cause of conflict is not "the difference between the two traditions" as the Provisionals would have us believe.

It is becoming increasing evident even to those who would believe the moon is made of cheese and that the world is flat once that decree was announced by the leadership of the Provisionals, that the entire 30 years has been controlled by the British intelligence services by their control of all of the armed groupings

by Gordon Mon Mar 06, 2006 17:42

Ghandi of North Strand
I take your point which is well made. However the biggest fear the bigots have in both communities is stability and peace. Willie and his cronies (many in the Republic including all Sunday Indo Journalists) have a real fear of peace and that is why they have put in train a process which will dismantle it, North and South. The apologists for the Brittish occupation of part of Ireland, in the Republic, especially the Sunday Indo crew are more than happy with this scenario. After all you never read about Loyalist thuggery and criminality in the Indo. That would be too balanced and impartial for that lot. Eoghan Harris, Ruth Dudley Edwards, Eilis O'Hanlon and the others are much too blinkered to see that rhere may be two sides to the story. All that matters to them is doing down Nationalists at all costs. Willie and Co will always be treated as being the only ones who have been hurt by the Indo gang with not a thought for victims of Loyalist and RUC/Brittish army barbarity.
Gordon

by Democrat Mon Mar 06, 2006 17:51

Never mind loyalists being offensive, I find RSF offensive (and I grew up as a Catholic in the North). But now I find Irish nationalism offensive. I find Rebel songs atrocious. Who in their right man thinks that Kevin Barry is a good song???? I don't mind in the slightest having a British presence in the North: I welcome it. I don't care which flag I live under or whether my elected representative s sit in Dublin or London - it just does not matter to me at all. Not one iota.

But I do find bombs and bullets offensive. I despite the way that Republicans have romanticised the military campaign that they launched, with no mandate whatsoever, and I am disgusted at their complete inability to honestly analyse why the whole damn thing failed, after so much sacrifice.

Does that mean that I have the right to keep you guys off the street, just because you offend every instinct in my body? Of course it doesn't. You are entitled to what I think are your quite lunatic and outrageous ideas. You are entitled to afflict your ears with garbage 'music' and pollute your minds with nonsense.

In that spirit, I also say that the Orangemen are equally entiteld to make asses of themselves in the streets of what you tell them is their country. Their ideas are also nonsense - but people have a right to absurd beliefs. You practice this every day.

In short, grow up, get over it, deal with it - don't be so easily annoyed. We have had to put up with you and your crap fro decades. Now is your turn to put up with that of others.

by Gordon Mon Mar 06, 2006 18:06

Need I say any more. No balance, no interest in balance. No understanding of what caused the problem in the first instance. Fear of stability and fear of peace. Conor Cruise O' Brien type democrats are sadly not democrats atal.

by democrat Mon Mar 06, 2006 18:55

Gordon you are offending me.... How awful of you.

What did I say that was not democratic? I despise what you stand for - but I defend your right to stand for it. I hate your rebel songs - but I defend your right to sing them. I have no problem with the British presence in the north of Ireland - but I defend your right to argue a different position. I do not accept that Britain is the root of the problem - today, in 2005, I think you are. But, again, I defend absolutely your right to argue differently. The only thing is....

1. I do not defend your right to chase off the streets those you disagree with
3. I DO defend the right of everyone - and that includes Orangemen, and raving bigots such as yourself - to protest, organise, agitate and be offensive in support of their beliefs.

Sounds like dmeocracy to me, but I quite accept to an extremist such as yourself that does not make sense.

by Gordon Mon Mar 06, 2006 21:14

Democrat
I'm sure that the suggestion I am now going to make will find favour with you if not with the Sunday Indo people.
Let's have a cross community march in Dublin for all the victims on all sides to the conflict. I feel certain that there will be no violence or mindless thuggery in evidence at this march. All the communities and their representatives can march side by side and I will come along too and shake your hand in the name of peace. Such an event can put to one side all the bitterness for once and for all and contribute to bringing a real and lasting peace to our land. What say you democrat?
Gordon

by democrat Mon Mar 06, 2006 21:43

Gordon

That is a good idea. I would attend the kind of march you propose, no problem.

But - I would also defend your right to have any kind of march that you wish, however idiotic. In that spirit, I also defend the right of Orangemen to have any kind of march they want as well. Its not up to you or anybody else to dictate how people should exercise their democratic rights. Don't you get it? Long live free speech, dissent and your right (and that of everybody else) to make complete arses of themselves,

by Gordon Mon Mar 06, 2006 22:17

Democrat
If everyone in the groups you defend so stauchly feel in a mood for peace then there is hope for us all and for Ireland. No need for preconditions or qualifications. People must earn respect from the communities they were at war with. The media are so important, they must show complete balance in what they say and print. That element of the equation may be the one that will be most difficult to deliver from what I've heard and read. Yet its one of the most important. But there is hope, great hope.
Gordon

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethics Tue Mar 07, 2006 01:05 micherlle33 at eircom dot net 6 Wellington Road, D4 01 623 4575

Give Peace a Chance. I like the choice heading and evidently so did others.

Fergal Keane has produced a most outstanding 'piece of journalistic driven media script ' that may just evolve the movement of the Peace Process forward.

Insight, knowledge, lateral thought function all contribute to an analysis that bring together Pain in the context of a forum. Present are the mediators, the victims, the perpetrators and the crime, the motive and the challenge for conflict resolution in a personal context.

Tonight, (I watched the previous programmes Sunday and Saturday), Archbishop Desmond Tutu mediated at a Forum in a location in Northern Ireland with Loyalist Michael Stone (a Loyalist who was convicted of murder following an attack on an IRA funeral and then confessed to other murders.....listen out for the twist that reveals an unthought truth.....

Michael Stone meets at this forum with the wife of a man murdered by the Loyalists (he admits guilt in that he conspired to the killing), and his brother.

This is chilling to watch but Reconciliation, Truth and Forgiveness for me is the best route to Giving Peace a Chance. Let's stop trying to humiliate either side, deal with realities of having a unified Ireland and also endeavour to deal with social issues, some arising from high levels of crime and corruption, so that Ireland can move forward.

A woman from Conflict Studies in Harvard is prsent and also a woman who lost her husband in Rwanda and who went there with a reconciliation in mind.

I wonder has anyone else seen this programme. It has a bearing if Government are series about a military March this easter.

Michelle (Spotlight tomorrow at 10.30 and for two further nightes) investigates further with the victim and perpetrator.....one to one.

Gandfhi: 'You have to be the change you want to see'

by ghandi of North Strand Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:37

Contributors continually confuse Republicanism and Provisionalism, I would suggest that the two concepts are mutually exclusive.
Gordon

Your criticism of Harris should be sperate to that of Dudley Edwards and O'Hanlon, the latter two have always been anti Republican. Whereas Harris has come from a tradition of deep Republicanism, and has reformed his opinions through continual questioning them through the years. He is certainly anti Provisional but I would suggest that he is not anti-Republican. Many Republicans have for the past number of years (that is those who can think for themselves, i.e. those not in the Provisionals) been questioning their position and what it was all about. When talking of teh Provisionals pepole should refer to them as the Provisionals and and not as Republicans.

by Dave Tue Mar 07, 2006 16:30

Harris a Republican. Give me a break. Anyone who works for Tony O'Reilly's medfia empire can certainly be left out of that category.

by Joe Tue Mar 07, 2006 17:03

Harris is like De Rossa. Once a Republican but now more Brittish than the Brittish themselves.

by Ghandi of North Strand Tue Mar 07, 2006 17:32

Joe & Dave,

You have missed the main point, which is the differance between Republicanism & Provisionalism, it is possible to be against Provisionalism and be a Republican, I would suggest that its impossible to be both a Provisional and a Republican they are mutually exclusive concepts..

by Joe Tue Mar 07, 2006 17:58

Ghandi
You are far too complimentary about Harris. By joining Anto O'Reilly and Co. he redefined whatever he might have been. De Rossa just wanted ro get to Europe for the big bucks. Harris is of the same ilk.

by Damo Thu Mar 09, 2006 09:37

The entire media setup in the Republic is full of anti nationalist rabble. Ger Colleran Editor of the Star is one such. Wahat a tosser.
There seems to be a production line somewhere now (media school I suppose) for this type of thing. It would be no great surprise if the Brits had infiltrated that as well. They are like a computer virus, hard to get rid of

by Sideshowbob Thu Mar 09, 2006 13:33

More and more people in this country are copping on to the fact that the majority of irish media outlets, especially the papers and in particular the Independent group, have gone completely biased on issues and could nearly be described as anti irish. Their reporting is at the point of laughable and are so blantent now that alot of people just glance over their headings, knowing full well what usual garble will be contained if they read further.. Sooner or later this has to catch up on these papers as Irish people are not stupid enough to allow this go on indefinitely...

by Michelle Clarke - 'Diversity in Unity' if only! Thu Mar 09, 2006 21:13

Media control by capitalist and sectorial interests. if not, it is up to us who write to promote interaction and every level.

I note nobody replied to me about Fergal Keane's programme with Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Desmond Tutu as the mediator Where victim meets perpetrator of violence (British Army, UDA / IRA)recommendation and the Spotlight programmes that have been over the last few nights.

I am astounded the response is so ampathetic/numb. This form of Truth Forgiveness and Reconciliation could be a foundation of a Peace Process prototype. It ought to be encouraged rather than ingnored.

The strange point is that there have been comments on the radio by people who have children murdered. These people rather than remain bitter suggest that they may be open to some form of reconcilation. Is this not about Hope?

War or violence to me can never be the answer. Gandhi and his salt march....restrict the supply of salt onto the market and basically cripple the economics of a colonial power, yes I think this has real affect. For a start it affects the vanity of Corrupt Capitalists who are only surmounted by shame and loss of wealth and prestige. If I recall, certain young women in Dunnes Stores enlightened the world about Apartheid in South Africa.....they just would not sell fruit from such a regime. I am sure people like Pearse, James Connolly, Larkin and so many other socially mind people would have been proud of these young women...

As Easter approaches, lets ensure that if there is a military parade, it is accompanied by all facets of what created the democratic republic. Let us recall that De Valera in his time at commerations neatly oblterated the participation of Cuman na MBan and had a token gesture of two women being allowed to be in his presence whose husband's died at the Rising. We need representation from women's organisations who were part of the formation of the State, their representative and most importantly their history brought forward. For example the artist Estella Solomon who later married Sean Keating. She was Jewish and lived on Waterloo Road....During the time of the troubles she provided accommondation for many on the run and often painted them and alas had to destroy many if case they would be found and used as evidence.

Then the whole idea of the Celtic Twilight must be incorated. People like Lady Gregory, William Butler Yeats, the Abbey, the burning out of the Abbey, Sean O'Casey.........Not only did these people record a social history but the sold it to a world audience. They created an artistic celtic Culture that was sold worldwide and we still reap the benefits. This is a prominent part of our social, economic and political culture. This of course was enhanced by the large number of Irish people who emigrated in earlier centuries and whose life circumstances changed positively.

Aware as I am of the Abuse scandal regarding the Church in Ireland, one cannot remove the purposes fulfilled throughout the world by prirests, nuns, brothers, particularly in areas of education, hospitals, anthropology, philosophy, theoloy, sociology........1950's Ireland was on its knees and priests and nuns left for countries like Japan, China, Africa, Korea etc. with a wealth of expertise to try and assist troubled countries....particularly those so badly affected by World War 2. This surely is assisting us today in what John Hume refers to as 'Diversity in Unity'.

Here, I would talk about those involved in the Peace Process in Ireland, people like Fr. Reid, years of experience, knowledge and wisdom. We may not agree with them but we must acknowledge their contribution to the Republic and the potential Unity of Ireland. We need to know more about the good of people.......their contributions.

This moves me to Roger Casement. Rumours, religion, mistrust etc. etc. has blighted this man from history yet he was Irish and global when it was fashionable to be global. The Easter Parade must acknowledge this man, his knighthood and the first he was the first ever man to be chosen as a Humanitarian in the British Empire. We hear people bleet on about a Whistleblower charter but this man was exactly that and the honesty we hold in a shadow of shame. I would recommend his book Amazon Journal. The exploitation of the Rubber companies in the Congo for example.....All I can say, is do we really know enough about the ethics and greed of the Capitalist companies that still plunder Africa........

One more point I would like to raise. What about the Subversive Courts set up in the Munster Region circa the the burning out of Cork City. The time that World War One had devastated morale and Ireland's visionaries saw an opportunity. What about those men sentenced to death during this period. Does anyone know of the case Clifford and O'Sullivan when a self educated Irish Lawyer who was KC brought a case to the House of Lords in England and saved the lives of 40 Irish men.........where has this history gone and why......

What about the Irish who are retired in England and the US? People who left on the boats in the 1950's and who sent the remittances home to give Minister's like Lemass the opportunity to change route to an Industrialisation programme. There are many impoverished. These left Ireland as vulnerable people and a lot gained work in construction of the infrastructure of the UK - actually just like people work on the Roads etc. in Ireland now from countries in Eastern Europe and Turkey. Remittances back to Ireland would appear prominent if one was to prepare a balance sheet for that particularly time.

What about the Land Annuities.......I have heard a professor in a University refer to this as vision, courage and foresight.. Yet our blame culture still talks of the severity of such a decision. The reality is, we must review this in retrospect. We regained our Ports, we paid off a token sum and in return gained the land. The land is our wealth and is of particular relevance in the last 10 years ............................

Ireland is the mustard seed but let this not be destroyed by greed, vanity, and finance policies that makes funds for the party of the day and leave hardships for the party that follows.

Michelle Clarke

Selected Quotation
'A Question of Toleance'
'Freedom of opinion can only exist when the government thinks itself secure' Bertrarnd Russell, (1872-1970) British Philosopher

by Sideshowbob Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:31

Yes correct Michelle, your points are very valid and i would have to commend the likes of indymedia as alternative media since the mainstream media has collasped into over commercialised, politicised, interest fested mouth pieces for a select few individuals in this country whose main aim now is to serve their own interests as opposed to the interests of the general public.. No offence 'Sir' Anthony...

by Brendan Fri Mar 10, 2006 22:34

I see Eoghan Harris got his knickers in a serious knot once again by blaming the Shinners for the Dublin dust up. Typical Harris, not knowing his arse from his elbow but always wanting to put the blame on SF just like McDowell. Kindred spirits I guess.

by Sharon - Individual Sat Mar 11, 2006 01:09

" Republicans used iron railings to rip into the marchers . "
Eoghan Harris , 'Sunday Independent' , February 26th last .

I may be wrong here , but I believe that happened after those same republicans had broke in to a local maternity hospital and killed a few dozen babies .
More details in Eoghan's next column .

Sharon .

by Greengrass Sat Mar 11, 2006 04:51

"always wanting to put the blame on SF just like McDowell"

I was under the impression that McDowell was trying to put the blame on to the Green Party. I'm sure the Greens would be interested to hear him repeat those allegations OUTSIDE Leinster House.

by Michelle Clarke - 'Diversity in Unity, if only!!!! Sat Mar 11, 2006 15:24

I would ask in certain cases, particularly relating to Minister McDowell, and Revd. Ian Paisley (examples so many others).

What are they trying to hide? What do they fear? Is it the Truth and if it is the Truth, what is the truth.

Often we are looking at projection. For every one insult they feel/perceive that what has been thrown at them, they need in their narcissism to throw arrows back. The objectife us the 'Sting of the Wasp - not anything more progressive.

Chile.....

Quotation: Eduardo Frei, President of Chile 1964
'If we always look outside for our blame, that in itself if a form of dependence. We must look for our own blame to find our own personality'

Having attended a clinical psychologist for a number of years, this politically orientated statement applies to each individfual.

We need to review our history, remove certain biases in a cold calculated way and then reach a form of acceptance and apply a change of attitude based on revised knowledge and look forward to positive change.

Again I go back to where I started this time last week. I watched the BBC programme that involved journalist Fergal Bowers (Irsh), Archbishop Tutu Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, a woman involved in Conflict Studies from Harvard university and another woman whose husband was brutally murdered in Rwanda who returned to that country to seek a form of reconciliation, truth and forgiveness. (Something similar to what happened in South Africa)

Three programmes covered the meetings of Perpetrators and Victims, the outpourings of their circumstances, going back as far as 30 years in some cases, situations that occureed in the North, the UK, and British officers and members of the RUC. 3 nights of programmes that would penetrate the toughest of the tough. Then Spotlight for three nights narrowed the scope to the people involved in the atrocity.......Michael Stone would have to impact even for those how hearts are of stone.....

Then there was Mark Carrutthers and Lets Talk and representatives from PSNI like Sir Hugh Orders, members of the organisations and those I would hold to be so prejudiced that they cannot move beyond blame and bitterness. They close the door to acceptance, to change and remain consumed in bitterness. This rests with their conscience and we all die.

Where are our Journalists like Eoghan Harris.....Is this too close to the bone!!! Only the brave carry on with therapy, it is said!!.....Where are the radio presenters in Ireland? Perhaps they too run scared of raw emotions? Where are the politicians? Where is our Minister for Foreign Affairs.......This may not be a solution but it is a possibility to effect the Peace Process.

Then where is the Taoiseach? Are they scared of Sinn Fein and particularly those who may have been political prisoners and may have learnt to deal with their demons in the solitary existence they lived.......It looks like it.

Reverend Paisley is quiet these days.......I believe he reads and re-reads Bunyan's Pilgrims. I may be wrong but it is a form of bible/doctrine for those English people who left in the 17th for the colonies.....It combined religion with productivity that created wealth and the aim was secrecy. I even think that this form of protestantism highly promoted the Industrial Revolution but had one serious drawback. It is determined when born whether salvation applies to you, and there is nothing in your life you can do to change this.......Perhaps somebody could clarify this.

I would ask people like Revd. Ian Paisley to watch the series of BBC2 programmes over the 1st week of March and engage, think, consider, blame but constructivenely. As for our politicians and journalists, yes your doctrine is our history and its many perspectives, try taking another view. Try watching the history programme by Mr. McDowell (Historian) in the North of Ireland about Protestant King Billy, their own, about the Famine that affected the Protestants, the feats of Harland and Wolf, and Shorts. Their Irish Wolfounds and their folklore which Cuchalainnn! Maybe if 'Love Ulster' were invited to Ireland again, one could consult with the Northern Ireland Mr. McDowell and something of their history like the Boyne, Newegrange, Tara could be the venue.

Michelle

Gandhi: 'You have to be the change you want to see in the world'

Southern Ireland was host to a Peace and Reconciliation programme in the 1990's, as far as I know

by Wilhelm Frazer Sat Mar 11, 2006 16:38

http://www.lovebigotry.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=97

by Brendan Sat Mar 11, 2006 17:17

Sharon
Just like Harris you are wrong again. The anti catholic mob like Paisley and co will be pleased to know that they have a few fellow travellers around the 26 counties. By all accounts it was no different in 1916. Things never really change. Do they.?

by Joe Sat Mar 11, 2006 18:02

Your'e not wrong Brendan. CC O'Brien, Dudley Edwards, Eilis O'Hanlon, John Drennan. Its an exhaustive list. Strange bedfellows for Big Ian

by Sharon - Individual Sun Mar 12, 2006 01:35

"Sharon
Just like Harris you are wrong again. The anti catholic mob like Paisley and co will be pleased to know that they have a few fellow travellers around the 26 counties. By all accounts it was no different in 1916. Things never really change. Do they.? "

I forgot to mention that t'is said that those same republicans actually used the iron railings to impale the babies before roasting them on an open fire and eating them . According to you-know-who , that is . Probably .

Sharon .

by Brendan Mon Mar 13, 2006 09:34

Sharon, youve obviously been on the mushrooms again. I see the Sindo has once again aligned itself with Ian Paisley (the biggest exponent of sectarian hate in the Western World) by launching another attack on our President this week. Will this lot stop at nothing. I know Anto O'Reilly has to repay the Brits somehow for being titled but really even the more decent English people are horrified that the likes of Paisley would in any way be linked to them. The sooner Denis O'Brien takes over and clears the decks at Sindo House the better. What a pathetic shower they are.

by Joe Mon Mar 13, 2006 14:41

The O'Brien move has not gone down too well with Sir Anthony. This may be why Harris is lashing out wildly at other journalists who are a bit more balanced in their analysis. There is a good piece in "Phoenix" latest issue about this very thing. The Indo are under severe pressure at the moment. They are even getting their spellings wrong (Page 12 of latest Sun Indo) By taking on Newstalk he is barking up the wrong tree. But Harris is very good at shooting himself in the foot

by Sharon Mon Mar 13, 2006 19:40

" by Brendan Sat Mar 11, 2006 16:17
Sharon
Just like Harris you are wrong again.

Sindo does it again
by Brendan Mon Mar 13, 2006 08:34
Sharon, youve obviously been on the mushrooms again. "

Sheesh , 'Brendan' - Gimme a break - please !
Read between the lines ..... ;-)

Sharon .

by Ger Mon Mar 13, 2006 22:48

Why is anybody surprised that Indo Newspapers are biased. They always batted for the Brittish down through the years. There is a bar it would seem on any impartial journalist working there. The matter is now being highlighted in the more enlightened media outlets.
Lots of strong competition is the answer.

by Dave Tue Mar 14, 2006 17:39

Not much incentive for Paisley and other extreme loyalists to be conciliatory in any way when they know they can count on unquestioned support from sections of the media in the Republic (Independent Newspapers particularly) You will never find any reasoned analysis of the Northern situation or supportive comments about the enormous progress which has been made in those journals.

by Tony Fri Mar 17, 2006 00:32

So Ian Paisley Jnr has deprived the Shinners of some cash in the USA. So much for renouncing violence and going the peaceful route which I have long believed in. Maybe RSF have the right attitude after all. Until the Brits are gone no compromise possible.
Eoghan Harris will be so happy though as will his west brit cronies in the Sindo