Ógra SF protest: Omagh Courthouse, Co.Tyrone

by Daithi Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:14

Good luck in the protest.

by Rural Republican Tue Dec 13, 2005 15:08

Fair play lads - a thorn in the side of the local PSNI. One minor criticism I would make of OSF in Tyrone is they pander alot to left wing issues that have more in common with the ideological hotbeds like Belfast and Dublin than Tyrone Republicanism. Socialism and the likes never have gained a common currency in rural Ireland and simply never will no matter how much the Urbanites try and 'educate' their country bumkin comrades.

by Seamus Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:41

well lads in a few years when ye have grwon up and are taking over the main party after gerry and martin take their pensions, many of you will probably be wearing crown force ruc\psni uniforms, so I wonder who future generations of TirEoin republicans will be protesting about\getting beaten off the streets by then?

by Rural Republican Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:14

my bets is that your nice and safely snuggled up somewhere deep in the 26 counties this last 40 years sittng in a darkened room cursing the 26 country statelet, a nice arms length from the war but close enough to become a well versed commentator in it. Masqurading a deep seated hate of the 26 countt gov with Irish Republicanism. So really - we don't need lectures from southern socialist Draft Dodgers

by Rural Rep Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:18

So your idea of bring the war home is a decision between getting a couple of dozen free range eggs out of the dump or dressing up as Laurel and Hardy, if only northern republicans had though of such a ruthless stragegy the Brits would be away home long ago. And you come on here knocking Ogra SF for a protest....wot a laugh

by Seamus O Ragallaigh Thu Dec 15, 2005 15:12

Rural rep. Im not knocking Ogra Sinn Fein at all quite the opposite, I actually admire them and think they do a better job then the leadership themselves. As you know your self, its not an easy time to be a Republican with the path Martin and Gerry have us marching down. Im just hoping its not another dead end. So apologies for being cynical, some times it justs gets you down sometime, especially when I log onto Indymedia and read what McDowell has been upto recently. Plus the fact that the Orange Order is to march in Bail Atha Cliath to the joy of the free staters who seem to be on the up and up when it comes to licking Brit arse....

Finally, yes I am from the free state and was born in 1969 and have lived with the struggle from the day I was born and havent been lacking in doing what I can to further the aims of Wolfe Tone. Go raibh maith agat, beir bua Ogra Sinn Fein.

by Barry Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:47

Thats at least 3 outrageous stereotypes in 2 posts youve spouted

1) rural republicans are all apolotical right wing rednecks

2) southern republicans played no part in the anti colonial struggle for the last 40 years

3) northern republicans view them as softy "southern socialists" hiding away under the bed .

Not to mention the utter bollocks of an assertion that Belfast and Derry Sinn Fein are hotbeds of marxism .

With a right wing partitionist mentality like that something tells me you are no more a republican than the man on the moon and are having a "chuckle chuckle" winding people up .

Get a life ffs .

by Rural Republican Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:39

OK Baz - think what you want Komrade, all I'm saying is that any attempt to impress a marxist blueprint on the national liberation struggle has failed and will fail. Your marxist terminology (right wing & anti colonial) displays a good grasp of Das Kapital over a bag of Wotsits and your urban educated smugness in terming us 'rednecks' also comes to the fore.

I didn't say Belfast and Derry are hotbeds of marxism, nor is Dublin or anywhere else. Marxism is at best on the hind tit now, only a minus percentage of intellectual mastrabautors o fthe whle population give it any creedence in the post 1989 world.

And yes, I didn't see too many of the draft dodgers crossing the border back in 1983 or any other year for that matter, no doubt you are the exception that proves the rule Komrade

by Paddy Meehan - Socialist Youth Tue Dec 20, 2005 02:14 patmaster35 at hotmail dot com

I would like to challenge the view put forward by 'Rural Republican' stating that socialism had no place in rural areas like Tyrone.

I myself am from a very rural area in Tyrone, Dromore, and have been a Socialist Youth and Socialist Party organiser in the area for two years. In that time I saw the thirst for left wing and in particular Marxist views a very major component on the political landscape.

The criticism of OSF using more left wing propaganda only shows the success of the local Omagh Socialist Youth branch. Their use of similar images of revolution can only be comparable on acceptance of a desire to know more about socialism. Posters recently showing Che Guevara and Bobby Sands around a 5-point star are a good example of this however they still do not go to the actual meaning of these symbols.

The ideology of Guevara was one of international revolutionaryism fighting the capitalist system he saw in Latin America and around the world. It is the job of any revolutionary to analyse struggle and not take spoon-fed nationalist hatred.

OSF should be applauded for their move to the left but the careerist and opportunists must be removed. If this turn is genuine then it will pick up on the real and very tangible desire to change society in the favour of scientific socialism and liberation of not just a nation but the world.

I conclude taking offence to the remark 'country bumkin comrades'. I have comrades in Derry, Belfast, Enniskillen and across the rural areas of Ireland. However I also have comrades in Dublin, Cork, London, Liverpool, New York, Brussels, Paris, Berlin, Hong Kong, Caracas, La Paz and any where were people fight narrow-minded parochialism like yours.

We are all one nation divided by borders

by Barry Tue Dec 20, 2005 02:28

Im from a very rural area in the north you Tyrone dipstick . And Franz Fanon would be more my bag than Karl Marx . As is Johnny Cash .

by Peadar O'Donnell Tue Dec 20, 2005 02:50

One of James Connolly's great contributions was that his Marxist analysis of Ireland's political economy was the first from this perspective dealing with an underveloped, imperial-dominated society.

by confused rasta Tue Dec 20, 2005 13:48

What a shame, republicans(their term not mine) being harrassed in Omagh. Disgraceful, shocking lack of gratitude after all they done for the people of Omagh.

three words;

no warning bomb

by pat c Tue Dec 20, 2005 14:02

i will try and unconfuse you. the activists being harrassed are OSF members. the omagh bombing was carried out by the RIRA, you might have heard that they were a diddident group who split from the IRA.

by Barry Tue Dec 20, 2005 15:11

There was no shortage of warnings . Not just the 3 on the day , but the member of RUC special Branch who repeatedly warned them there was going to be an attack in Omagh on that day , 11 days beforehand .

For some strange reason every last British soldier in that garrison town was confined to base on that day . And most of the RUC in the town sent out of Omagh for the day . No checkpoints despite being warned by a member of RUC special branch 11 days before hand of an attack on the 15th .

There should be an immediate independent public enquiry , but of course there wont be .

by pat c Tue Dec 20, 2005 15:20

this is not an attack, just looking for clarification. in an account of the bombing which iread it was stated that the original spot chosen for thebomb was blocked and those responsible for placing thebomb then parked it outside of the shop of a prominent Orangeman. i accept what you say about the prior warnings and it does look as if some securocrat wanted the bombing to go ahead, i doubt if they wanted such casualties though.

was the original site blocked?did the warnings on the day give the new location of the bomb?

by Paddy Meehan - Socialist Youth Tue Dec 20, 2005 16:31 patmaster35 at hotmail dot com

The Omagh Bomb in my mind was the largest example I ever have had the misfortune of seeing of the failings of the different IRA campaigns whether against British State forces or against English or Northern Irish working class.

The different sections of the IRA are only different shades of the incorrect method. Like all terrorist and guerilla campaigns before them based on minority and isolated military units have only lead to alienation and a lack of understanding of the feelings of the masses.

However this is another example of how practical Marxism is an alternative to abstract nationalism (and it is very much abstract when compared objectively with scientific socialism) and reactionary unionism.

As a Marxist I support struggles for national indepedence up and until the use of inidividual terrorism. I am not against individual terrorism on any moral grounds rather on scientific grounds - poorly armed and trained militia can at best using guerilla tactics create a stalemate against very well armed, trained and funded state forces with all the propaganda tools of an advanced capitalist state at their disposal.

I am still however a revolutionary and a pragmatic one. I would prefer a peaceful transition from capitalism to socialism however that is unrealistic in analysis of past attempts such as Allende in Chile and Chavez in Venezuela. Therefore I will have to use a quote from Trotsky to explain it best:
"Where force is necessary, there it must be applied boldly, decisively and completely. But one must know the limitations of force; one must know when to blend force with a maneuver, a blow with an agreement."

This is a purely objective analysis and is very much a feasible alternative to the unneccessary killing of innocent people in Omagh and throughout the Troubles.

by pat c Tue Dec 20, 2005 16:49

"poorly armed and trained militia can at best using guerilla tactics create a stalemate against very well armed, trained and funded state forces with all the propaganda tools of an advanced capitalist state at their disposal."

i think the campaigns of the cira and rira are futile, but the methods they use are no different to those of that the pira used. i campaigned for political status for pira and inla prisoners and i would be a hypocrite if i didnt say that the cira and rira prisoners also deserve political status.

the omagh bombing was an appalling tragedy, one that was let happen by british state forces. but those who planted the bomb also bear responsibility. when the original site was unusable they should have abandoned the carbomb in the countryside.

i dont agree with your comments above. i dont think trotsky would have either. the trotsky pamphlet "marxism opposes individual terrorism" dealt with the experience of russian groups who were just individual terrorists, trotsky never meant it to apply to national liberation struggles.

in the irish war of independence trotsky and the comintern supported the ira, "a poorly armed and trained militia can at best using guerilla tactics". in the irish civil war trotsky and the comintern supported the anti-treaty side, calling for the military conquest of northern ireland. even as late as 1936 trotsky still supported irish republicanism.

"The revolutionary tradition of the national struggle is a precious good."
Leon Trotsky, 6 June 1936. (From his letter to Nora Connolly O'Brien, even after the Belfast outdoor relief riots Trotsky reaffirmed his support for republicanism and saw no change in the counter-revolutionary nature of the loyalist working class. Does this make Trotsky sectarian?)


"The British Socialist who fails to support by all positive means the uprising in Ireland, Egypt and India against the London plutocracy - such a Socialist deserves to be branded with infamy if not with a bullet, but in no case merits either a mandate or the confidence of the proletariat."
Leon Trotsky 7 August 1920.

by Theorist Tue Dec 20, 2005 17:16

'the trotsky pamphlet "marxism opposes individual terrorism" dealt with the experience of russian groups who were just individual terrorists, trotsky never meant it to apply to national liberation struggles'

Could agree.

"The revolutionary tradition of the national struggle is a precious good."
Leon Trotsky, 6 June 1936. (From his letter to Nora Connolly O'Brien, even after the Belfast outdoor relief riots Trotsky reaffirmed his support for republicanism and saw no change in the counter-revolutionary nature of the loyalist working class.

Does this make Trotsky sectarian?)

Good question. Interested in Paddy's reply.



"The British Socialist who fails to support by all positive means the uprising in Ireland, Egypt and India against the London plutocracy - such a Socialist deserves to be branded with infamy if not with a bullet, but in no case merits either a mandate or the confidence of the proletariat."
Leon Trotsky 7 August 1920.

Another interesting quote I have not seen in a while.

What do you think Paddy?

by pat c Tue Dec 20, 2005 17:40

"counter-revolutionary nature of the loyalist working class. "

that should have read: counter-revolutionary allegiances of the loyalist working class.

by Rural Republican Tue Dec 20, 2005 18:20

ya see - look at yerselves, put two s*****ists in a room together and the Komrades start twisting over some minute marxist thought on hte theory of gravity. I really don't need to say any more - this is the reason why s*****ism never got a grasp in Ireland. Thankfully Tyrone people find it's blissful simplicity shallow as its content.

by pat c Tue Dec 20, 2005 18:25

i'm not a totskyist, i'm pointing out to paddy that trotsky wouldnt agree with whats being said in his name by the sp.

by Rural Rep Tue Dec 20, 2005 18:42

indeed pat c but therein lies the problem - it has as much relevance to Irish self determintation or indeed any person sitting down to their dinner tonight anywhere in Ireland than canned sardines. There is no appitite for it, never was, never will be. (Or is it that the four legged working class need to be educated by the two legged working class that it is is relevant)

by Analyst Tue Dec 20, 2005 18:53

Pat C - In essence, you supported the IRA 'war' to unite Ireland (or at least so I infer from your comments above). However, if you did so, I would be interested in your analysis of why the campaign failed.

I believe it failed because these methods under these precise historical conditions serve only to alienate Protestants and even most Catholics, while never having the capacoity to develop sufficient momentum to disturb the British. They therefore become an obstacle, pretty much as Paddy M has argued.

I am not therefore terribly interested in how Trotsky meant his comments on individual terrorism to be interpreted. I am interested in the inescapable fact that every IRA campaign has ended in failure.

Thus what is the point in glorifying these methods, which always has the poitential to lead to their inherently doomed repetition at some point in the future? And what a waste that would be. If 30 years of IRA campaigning failed this time, why should it ever be different in the future?

PS

32CSM hacks like Barry/ Sharon in particular never seem to address these practical questions. Lots of bombast about British perfidity etc - never any indication of what their strategy to achieve their ends is, or of the weaknesses of the military struggles in the past. I am not bracketing Pat C in this category by the way, just making an additional point.

by Paddy Meehan - Socialist Youth Wed Dec 21, 2005 01:42 patmaster35 at hotmail dot com

I would like to respond to the main points as quickly as possible.

Firstly and by far the most easiest is that of Rural Republican who has failed to keep up with his own argument in saying initially that socialism is limited to Belfast and Derry when i am nearly sure i know "Barry" as a fellow citizen of Tyrone and the polemics involved is in relation to socialism and nationalism through the use of the example of the Omagh Bomb. Then in reference to healthly argument and debate on a very controversial and prominent issue for republicanism in Tyrone and rural areas as a whole you proclaim it a 'minute marxist thought' and then very comically refer to the theory of gravity which at the end of the day affects us all very much.

I would like to clarify a point i and the organisation i represent do call for a United Socialist Ireland as part of a Socialist Federation of England, Wales and Scotland and any other national idenities.

In reference to the quotes used by 'Pat C' and 'Theorist'. The use of the quotes and concepts is taken out of their Marxist context and a very basic one at that. Any Marxist thought, particularly Marxist-Trotskyism, uses the ideas of Dialectical Materialism for this case concentrating on it's use in the examination of social structures and interaction. Individual Terrorism is a natural phenomenon in reaction to Feudal and later Capitalist Imperialism - Trotsky's Negation of the Negation Rule in work. However to say that Trotsky was only speaking of 'russian groups who were just individual terrorists' is incorrect as he examined, as Marxists do, the social processes at worked and found them in Ireland, Latin America, Africa and the rest of the world.

Therefore if the same social processes are responsible they can be responded to in similar manner. Trotsky opposed terrorism in Russia quite similarly to why i oppose terrorism in Ireland. Russian attacks at the life of the Tzar only killed one man but allowed the aristocracy to impose harsh and massive attacks on people opposed to the feudal system. In Omagh the idea that British State forces could have allowed the bomb to occur or at best didn't do enough only shows that British Capitalism can use Individual Terrrorism to discredit itself and force it further into obscurity and alienation from the masses as occurred after the Omagh bomb only slowing united working class action against the state. Thus why Trotsky opposed Individual Terrorism not locally but realised it as a global reaction and can be used
"to label all the activities of the proletariat directed against the class enemy's interests as terrorism." - Trotsky, which i very much agree with.

As to the references of Trotsky as a sectarian and i presume in the Northern Irish sense i find very amusing. Did Trotsky belive that republicanism was more progressive than unionism? Must definitely as do I. Did Trotsky believe that the working class in the North of Ireland hold different economic aims? Most certainly not divided by promises of better living standards of remaining in the union or joining the other 26 counties. I believe the present economic situation in Northern Ireland of the dismantling of manufacturing industries within the union testifies against the unionist ideal. The struggle of the Irish Ferries workers and countless other struggles going on in the South testifies against the Nationalist ideal.
Any member of SF who declares that joining the 26 counties under capitalism will benefit the working class is at best utopian and at worst should be considered for ulterior motives.

"The revolutionary tradition of the national struggle is a precious good."
Leon Trotsky, 6 June 1936

"The British Socialist who fails to support by all positive means the uprising in Ireland, Egypt and India against the London plutocracy - such a Socialist deserves to be branded with infamy if not with a bullet, but in no case merits either a mandate or the confidence of the proletariat."
Leon Trotsky 7 August 1920.

As to these quotes Trotsky , like Lenin, Marx and Engels, all disagreed with Imperialism as methods of supporting the class system would obviously agree with movements who openly and energetically opposed this method. However they are not and will never be an alternative to a genuine call for a democratic planned economy as opposed to another nation's state exploiting the working class. I used the word 'energetically' to describe some national liberation struggles however myself and obviously Trotsky in the second part of his quote, ' to support by all positive means' did not consider Individual Terroism a positive or progressive means to the end as he himself stated:

"The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end."

Opposing imperialism is very much progressive; replacing one nation's capitalism with another is not an answer it is a sideways move not progressive.

Finally to answer a question not addressed to me i apologise to Pat C for being impolite. To answer Analyst as to the failings of past IRA Campaign's and he touched himself upon how it in how it alienated Protestant and even Catholics. The IRA may in the past have been large but they have never represented the largest and most powerful classes in society - the working class. I apologise if this seems like Marxist rhetoric but it is a very practical and true doctrine still very much relevant to us today. If we compare the previous IRA campaigns which have failed to the 1917 Revolution which succeeded (And i refer to taking over society not the Stalinist aftermath) we find the Bolshevicks uniting the working class not just of Russia but of all minorities: Estonia & Finland (contrary to popular belief Lenin staunchly defended the right of national and ethnic minorities to independence and allowed many nations under Russification to leave the empire after it's dissolution). The IRA have alienated the Protestant working class playing into the hands of British Imperialism who could use the 'divide and rule' method of maintaining control.

A true organisation of the working class would represent it all and be completely democratically accountable in it's struggle for liberation. It would not just be for national identity oppression but against an economic system which is based upon exploitation of the masses for the few.

by Rural Rep Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:50

Paddy - wot a load of rubbish you just wrote, the 'Life of Brian' springs to mind, the Judean Peoples Front, the Peoples Front of Judea, micro analysis here, microanalysis there, look how smart I am with my quotes - you all should sit up a listen to me - I'm a working class intellectual. Well sorry Paddy - we had a few of them, the only thing they left behind where Gulags in Siberia. Essentially the reason socialism has got nowhere because it died a death in the text books, look at yiz - fighting about 'sumthing materialism' and 'marxism-leninism', crazy crazy stuff that resides in a parallel universe that has absoloutely no link to the outside world apart from inside the heads of a few disturbed souls who wish to impose their Intelligent Design blueprint accross humanity. Its like going into the dentist and getting yer teeth pulled without a local anestitic, NO - its even more painful than that. I thought most sufferers of Post Traumatic 1989 Syndrome had got over it by now.

by Rural Rep Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:56

"contrary to popular belief Lenin staunchly defended the right of national and ethnic minorities to independence"

sorry Barry - can't let this one pass, ask to good people of Poland??, Czech Rep??, Ukraine??, Afganistan??, no doubt you'll tell me the socialists after Lenin got it wrong, misinterpreted 'his works' or something. Whoops, Oh Dear Lads - we made a mistake, now lets purge 75% of our party officials (and their families for good meaasure) and pretend its all right again, back onto the dual carraigeway and straight for Socialist Utopia AGAIN.

by D'other slant Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:28

"sorry Barry - can't let this one pass, ask to good people of Poland??, Czech Rep??, Ukraine??, Afganistan??, no doubt you'll tell me the socialists after Lenin got it wrong, misinterpreted 'his works' or something. Whoops, Oh Dear Lads - we made a mistake, now lets purge 75% of our party officials (and their families for good meaasure) and pretend its all right again, back onto the dual carraigeway and straight for Socialist Utopia AGAIN."

Rural republican who fancy's himself as a bit of a historian well lets take a look at what he is saying. My favourate adage is "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and comments like the above are a good example. I assume RR is a committed anti imperialist, or so he believes.Take Poland RR's first port of call, an imperialist country, invaded the fledgeling USSR along with the US, UK Japan etc. Actually invaded Ukraine in 1919 as part of an ongoing struggle between them and the Ukraine over Eastern Galicia.

Both the Hungarian and the Czech communists fought Stalins Imperialism. Imre Nagy (born in Kaposvár, Hungary June 7, 1896, executed June 16, 1958) was Prime Minister of Hungary on two occasions.

Nagy (pronounced "nahj") was born in a peasant family and was apprenticed to a locksmith, before fighting in the Austro-Hungarian Army during World War I on the Eastern Front, was taken prisoner 1915. He then became a Communist, fighting in the Red Army. He returned to Hungary after WWI and served in the brief government of Béla Kun. In 1929 he went to the Soviet Union, becoming involved in agricultural research, and working in the Hungarian section of Comintern.

During the time Nagy spent in the Soviet Union, many non-Russian communists were arrested, imprisoned and executed by the Soviet government. In particular, Béla Kun who led the Hungarian Soviet Republic disappeared in the mid 1930s. This incident spurred panic amongst Hungarian communist emigres, as documented in Julius Hay's Born 1900. At this time Nagy became an agent for the Soviet security apparatus. This was common practice, and the fact that Nagy survived the 1930s and 1940s indicates that he operated for the security apparatus. (see Granville 1995 and TsKhSD, F. 89, Per. 45, Dok. 82.). It is apparent that Nagy had ceased operating for the Soviet security apparatus by the late 1940s, as at this time he fell from ministerial positions in Hungary.

In 1944 he returned to Hungary again, and served in the Communist government, as Minister of Agriculture and in other posts, becoming an expert on peasants' welfare.

After two years as Prime Minister (1953-1955), during which he promoted his "New Course" Nagy was forced to resign and was expelled from the Communist Party by hardline colleagues, including First Secretary Mátyás Rákosi as a result of the liberalizing tendency that he showed in this office. He then spent time teaching.

He became Prime Minister again during the brief anti-Soviet revolution in 1956, through popular support, replacing the hardliner András Hegedűs. But was forced to work with hardliner Ernő Gerő, who remained the First Party Secretary.

Alexander Dubček was born in Uhrovec, Czechoslovakia (Slovakia), and raised in Kirghizia (now Kyrgystan) as a member of esperantist industrial cooperative Interhelpo. His father moved from Cleveland to the Soviet Union in the late 1920s in search of work because of poor employment conditions in the US during the Great Depression. In 1938 the family returned to Czechoslovakia and Dubček joined the Communist Party of Slovakia. During the Nazi occupation, Dubček fought for the underground resistance. He joined the Central Committee of the party in 1955. He was sent to Moscow Political College in 1955, where he graduated in 1958. By 1962, he was a full member of the Central Committee of the Czechoslovak Communist Party.

Under Communism, the Czechoslovak economy in the 1960s was in serious decline and the imposition of central control from Prague disappointed local Communists while the destalinization program caused further disquiet. In October 1967 a number of reformers, most notably Ota Sik, took action, they challenged First Secretary Antonín Novotný at a Central Committee meeting. Novotný failed to secure support from either his fellow Communists or from Moscow and was forced to resign, Dubček became the new First Secretary on January 5, 1968. The period from March to August 1968 is termed the Prague Spring; during this time, Dubček attempted to liberalise the government and allow "socialism with a human face".

As for Lenin getting things wrong- he did as did Marx and all the other Marxist writers.

by pat c Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:34

"Trotsky's Negation of the Negation Rule in work."

When you use that type of language, you make yourself irrelevant to the working class. i hope its never spouted in dublin north or west.

"As to the references of Trotsky as a sectarian and i presume in the Northern Irish sense i find very amusing."

no, i dont think trotsky was sectarian, it was a sarcastic question.

"Any member of SF who declares that joining the 26 counties under capitalism will benefit the working class is at best utopian and at worst should be considered for ulterior motives. "

i agree with you, a capitalist united ireland is of no interest to the working class.

"However they are not and will never be an alternative to a genuine call for a democratic planned economy as opposed to another nation's state exploiting the working class. I used the word 'energetically' to describe some national liberation struggles however myself and obviously Trotsky in the second part of his quote, ' to support by all positive means' did not consider Individual Terroism a positive or progressive means to the end as he himself stated:

"The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end.""

paddy, no matter how you try, you cannot get away from the fact that Trotsky, Lenin & the ComIntern supported the IRA in the war of independence and the civil war. of course they were pushing for the republicans to take on a more left programme and for the infant Irish CP to play a more prominent role. there were however no qualifications in the comintern support for the republicans.

see also

lenin "speech on affiliation to the british labour party" Communist International, 2 aug 1920, collected works, vol 31, p. 261.

lenin, pravda, 5 may 1922, collected works, vol 33, p. 350.

"from the Ec of the comintern to the workers of GB & Ireland" workers republic (dublin) 1 july 1922.

"Comintern resolution on the terror in Saorstát Eireann" workers republic (dublin) 6 jan 1923

the last line of trotskys letter to nora connolly o'brien is perhaps the most appropriate:

"i take the liberty to send you in the same time my little book "THE DEFENCE OF TERRORISM".

leon trotsky 6 june 1936.

"The IRA have alienated the Protestant working class playing into the hands of British Imperialism who could use the 'divide and rule' method of maintaining control. "

some of the iras actions certainly did this. la mon, enniskillen, teebane. the targetting of workers at army and ruc bases could only have been seen as sectarian murder by the protestant community.

"A true organisation of the working class would represent it all and be completely democratically accountable in it's struggle for liberation. It would not just be for national identity oppression but against an economic system which is based upon exploitation of the masses for the few."

i agree with the above. the military wing should always be subordinate to the political wing which should be accountable to the working class. the only republic worth fighting for is a socialist republic.

i hope i have also answered analyst in the above reply. if not come back to me.

by Barry Wed Dec 21, 2005 15:16

The article your replying to is by Paddy Meehan . But twice youve addressed posts to me arguing about Eastern Europe nontheless which makes me think youve a fixation .
Earlier on you were calling me a smug southern draft dodger or some such hyperbole so as far as I can see your deductive powers are questionable in the extreme .

As regards Pat C , this talk of the Omagh bomb spot being blocked is a total red herring in my opinion . No republican group , certainly not any group involved in the bombing has made such a claim/ excuse . Indeed there is no evidence anywere to support what you read , although like you Ive read it often enough myself .

Mr Laurence Rushe whose wife worked in the shop has repeatedly accused the authorities north and south of a cover up . As indeed there has been . The destruction by RUC Special branch of over 300 pieces of evidence , the disappearance of Omagh RUC stations log book and the twin resignations of Ronnie Flanagan and Special branches Eric Anderson would bear this out by any stretch of the imagination .

Furthermore Mr Rushe claims that in the weeks prior to the bomb 2 men had been in the shop acting suspiciously and had asked about parking arrangements outside . This was suspicion enough for him to report the matter to the bomb "investigators " .No member of Eric Andersons special branch team even asked him any questions about it , not even since .This would suggest that the store owned by a prominent unionist was indeed targeted .

The British authorities have regularly publicised the use of a sophisticated Timing Power Unit used to detonate the bomb . More advanced and simple to use even than the IRAs previous idiot proof box timers . Therefere there was no ticking alarm clock or spluttering fuse to cause bombers to panic . All British soldiers in the garrison town confined to base for the day , the vast majority of RUC were sent out of town for the day . No checkpoints , no security presence and as clean a run as they could ever hope to have . Reports have consistently suggested the courthouse was the target . But there doesnt seem to be have been anything at all blocking the street at the courthouse , no reason for the car to have been hurriedly abandoned .

As yet there has been no explanation at all why a serving RUC Special branch officer would make a series of anonymous calls to Omagh RUC station 11 days before the blast warning of an attack in the town on the 15th . Why not simply go through the usual channels ? why did this RUC branchman feel the need to hide his identity from his own force while actively trying to stop the attack ? why could he not approach his superiors to stop the attack ? Could it be that his superiors wanted it to go ahead , forcing him to contact the Omagh cops directly , but anonymously . Because thats what he most definitely did .

I also for the life of me cant understand why you think "securocrats" ie British intelligence would balk at large civilian casualties . Morality or ethics have never even remotely played a part in their operational duties , never . Its end justifying means and nothing else .

Surely the best place for issues like what happened in Omagh to be discussed and examined is at an Independent public enquiry . 32CSM has been calling for one for years . The state doesnt seem to be too fond of the idea and I doubt therell ever be one .

by enlightened Wed Dec 21, 2005 15:36

Barry - so the nutcases who put high explosives in cars and leave them in crowded built up areas, and who fuck up a simple telephone call, have no responsibility for what happened. rather, the blame is entirely on those policemen and soldiers who failed to stop them.

Are you living on planet earth, or merely visiting from Mars?

by Barry Thu Dec 22, 2005 04:05

Your internet trolling time would be better spent calling for one than talking the same shite that Iveheard put more eloquently 100 times .

by John - Anti RUC / PSNI Campaign Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:49

Am i on the right channel here?
So much talk of socialism and the Omagh Bomb. Its like the propaganda mouthpiece of the socialist party at present.
Anyway Good luck to the two men on Thursday.
OSF are doing commendable work and seem to be doing more than others in their calls for demilitarisation and British withdrawal at present. Keep it up.
BRITS OUT.

by pat c Wed Jan 04, 2006 13:11

while i have differences with paddy meehan and have outlined same, he isnt anyones mouthpiece. hes putting across his viewpoint. hes made some valid points and some points which imho dont stand up.