SF Public Meeting Building a United Ireland

by Barry Fri Nov 04, 2005 19:41

and not even making a point

by Meanderer Fri Nov 04, 2005 18:40

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by Barry Fri Nov 04, 2005 18:29

How can it not affect you ? Britain insists that the Irish people as a whole have no right to national self determination and sovereignty . The entire political framework of the island is based upon this British demand . The politics then practiced throughout Ireland as a result are British politics . The political culture of the state in which you live has little or no concept of national sovereignty or accountability to the nation as a whole .Thats one reason why your police force covers up to this day for the killers who bombed Dublin on a number of occasions and murdered your fellow citizens like Seamus Ludlow . Can you explain another reason to me why they and the politicians would do this ?

Why does such an unjust system exist in the first place which perpetrates such official cover ups ?

Becasue the state did not seek to address unity on the island it never attempted to create any political structures which could lead to pluralism on the island . The result was total dominance by the Catholic church and all that entailed . Are you saying that didnt affect anyones lives ?

US troops going through shannon does not affect any of our lives in this country at all . Do you believe we should oppose this ? and if so on what basis ? What right have the Irish people to oppose a foreign army on their soil ?

If Irish people have no right to sovereign ownership of their own country why should they complain about Shells activities? .What right have they to ownership of these resources ? Nobody lives in the ocean except fish so why cant Shell own them ?

And it was the undemocratic notion that a pro British minority on this island supported by Britian could dictate as of right the political structures and democratic process on this island that started that and every other phase of Irelands troubles . You are confusing the issue of cause and effect , which is unsurprising woth your flawed analysis you call socialism .

by Michael R. Fri Nov 04, 2005 14:12

Barry,

I do not think the people of the South majorly care whether there is a United Ireland or not. It does not really affect our lives at present, nor will it really affect our lives if it does happen - except for the loss of limbs, loved ones, and bodies as Loyalist bombs explode all over Dublin and elsewhere.

Hence Gerry Adams bemusement at the lack of political support he is getting for a United Ireland here.

For the North it is a 50:50 scenario. Half wanting a United Ireland, half not.

For the Nationalist/Catholic half what do you think they care more about??:-

1. A United Ireland
2. Peace - Equality - Prosperity - Happiness etc. etc.

Remember, it was the Civil Rights movement that was the start of the "troubles" in Northern Ireland. Not the demands for a United Ireland.

Best regards,

by Barry Fri Nov 04, 2005 13:23

Socialism infers a political system based on equality . You believe that a minority of the country have the right to determine the future of the nation by virtue of their religious background . You believe a foreign country , with a monarchy to boot , have a right to claim sovereignty and jurisdiction over Ireland and a portion of its citizens . You also believe we should consider this normal , just in fact ,and try and build a political framework based on this historical injustice .

You are also utterly incapable of comprehending , despite the historical lesson of Irish History with regular bloodshed every century , that prolongation of this injustice will inevitably lead to armed confrontation if it is not properly addressed once and for all .

Your "socialism" is neither based upon the concept of a national democracy nor on the concept of sovereign ownership of Ireland by the people of Ireland . Your socialism is based upon the dictates of foreign and native capitalists . It is deeply flawed and little more than a political label for you to wear rather than a political plan of action .

Another example of why so much of the left in this country is so thoroughly useless .

by Michael R. Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:53

Re: P.O.N. - Class : )

As far as I can see the main thing it would "achieve" is MORE bloodshed, pain and suffering.

I urge Sinn Fein to focus more on their Socialist politics and work for a better future for ALL the people of Northern Ireland.

by Barry Thu Nov 03, 2005 19:27

for fecks sake

What right has a colonial power to determine the future of this or any other country . How can you hope to sort your countries problems out when a British demand predicates ALL political life on this island ?

Britain maintains that Ireland has no right as a whole to national self determination or national sovereignty . The political life and structures of the island are based around that demand . Thats why Irish sovereignty doesnt exist in the north , in Shannon or in Rossport . Without a national democratic framework based around the sovereignty of the Irish people there wont be any democratic accountability either on this island .

What the fuck is the use of complaining about our resources being nicked or our airports being used as military bases when you dont believe we have a right to national sovereignty in the first place ?

by Kieran O'Sullivan - None Thu Nov 03, 2005 18:07 kieran.osullivan at ireland dot com

I will start this by asking one very simple question What human rights do Irish people not have now that they would have in a United Ireland?

Lets look at the history of this country. In 1916 a bunch of people with absolutely no democratic mandate declared an Irish republic. After a lot of unnecessary bloodshed we got some form of Independence. Since that time we have had a Parliamentary democracy much like the one in Britain. We don't have nay more say in how we are governed than the British do. US Military in Shannon a case in point.

On a more broad point can anyone tell me when has nationalism delivered anything more then the replacing of a Foreign Ruling class with a local ruling class?

I predict that Sinn Fein will do very well at the next election maybe even join in a government with FF infact it wouldn't surprise me at all. And like every other nationalist party they will then view all their policies through the narrow prism of nationalism, which says, "what is in the interest of my people" and not "what is in the interest of the human race".

by Barry Thu Nov 03, 2005 17:43

Its very difficult to see how a united Ireland can be worked for under a British political framework which explicitly denies Irelands right to national self determination free from foreign interference ie the GFA . When the GFA was drawn up Britains retention of sovereignty over the North was non negotiable from the outset . Having acceded to this what is Sinn Feins strategy to achieve national sovereignty ?

Is there an alternative to the GFA now after all ? And can we hear what it is ?

by P.O.N. Thu Nov 03, 2005 17:30

Qualification for the European Chamionships(could do with Healy upfront, and even Lennon would add a bit of steel to the midfield), those northern lunatics who drive like absolute kamakazies could be stopped fined, given points and arrested and therefore taken off the roads of the country(the whole country that is), less talk of the need for a United Ireland (talking about dividing Ireland surely wouldn't be as popular as uniting north and south would it?), the 12th of July becoming a public holiday in this new United Ireland(the more the holidays better, and shur don't we knock the shite out of each other on most bank holidays anyway, perhaps we could keep ot to just this one if it happens), less bruising of the upper arm in 10-12m year old males who tump each other when ever they see a yellow number plate(there would still be a few English regs though I suppose), peace and harmony, less aggression towards our fabulous neighbours, the Brits for giving us our country back at last. And I'm sure theres more....

by Duine Thu Nov 03, 2005 17:27

A chead aighnis ag gach duine!!!

by Paul Moloney Thu Nov 03, 2005 17:19 paul_moloney at hotmail dot com

"The case for a United Ireland can be advanced in a range of ways and we the people of North County Dublin have our part to play."

Do you write for the Skibbereen Eagle?

P.

by Michael Thu Nov 03, 2005 17:12

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