The Royal Dublin Fusiliers at Gallipoli

by Moylan Wed Nov 02, 2005 14:29

"Duped into joining... by John Redmond". So they deserve to be celebrated? Don't think so. They were sent to their deaths in the belief that they were fighting for "the freedom of small nations" only to have Britain wage war on their own country for voting for independence. The slaughter of WWI, if it is not to be condemned as a crime of enormous proportions, had best be forgotten, and the roles of those duped into participating in it forgotten likewise.

If Irishmen had fought for the SS would we also be celebrating them?

by Moylan Wed Nov 02, 2005 14:32

"Peace poppy" is a laughable term. It is worn to commemorate ALL of Britain's acts of WAR since the Great Slaughter of 1914-18. And that includes the Black and Tan War, Bloody Sunday, the invasions of Iraq, the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. If you want to wear a poppy, do so by all means. Just be sure you know what it stands for.

by pat c Wed Nov 02, 2005 14:37

I'm not celebrating anything. but its ridiclious and irrational to compare economic conscripts and those duped by Redmond to the SS.

I'm saying that this was Imperialist butchery on both sides. But it was the ordinary workers on both sides who died.

Remember them by wearing a White Peace Poppy.

Go to the link below for info about the Peace Poppy.

by pat c Wed Nov 02, 2005 14:41

as you well know sean russel was never in the SS. he rather unwisely sought aid from Germany against his historical enemy Britain. there is no evidence to suggest that russel was pronazi or even pro german.

there is evidence however that the ira support organisation in the us had been clandestinely infiltrated by agents of the pronazi german bund( Tom Barry certainly believed this). they provided funding for the disasterous ira bommbing campaign of 1939/40.

by pat c Wed Nov 02, 2005 14:43

""Peace poppy" is a laughable term. It is worn to commemorate ALL of Britain's acts of WAR since the Great Slaughter of 1914-18. And that includes the Black and Tan War, Bloody Sunday, the invasions of Iraq, the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. If you want to wear a poppy, do so by all means. Just be sure you know what it stands for."

No. You are talking about the Red Poppy which I would never wear. Please visit the link above and read about the White Peace Poppy.

by iosaf Wed Nov 02, 2005 14:48

(its a remembrance day hymn) Anyway.., there are two poppy options. The most obvious is the red poppy distributed by the British Legion which yes only commemorates the fallen of British or their allies' regiments or combattants. But the "peace poppy" is a white one. And though not seen as often, attempts to offer remembrance to all those who died and die in War regardless of side.

"The idea of an alternative poppy dates back to 1926, just a few years after the red poppy came to be used in Britain. A member of the No More War Movement suggested that the British Legion should be asked to imprint 'No More War' in the centre of the red poppies and failing this pacifists should make their own flowers. In 1933 the Co-operative Women's Guild produced the first white poppies to be worn on Armistice Day (later called Remembrance Day). The Guild stressed that the white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War - a war in which many of the women lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers. The following year the Peace Pledge Union joined the CWG in the distribution of the poppies and later took over their annual promotion"

see link
http://www.ppu.org.uk/poppy/new/index_frame.html

I must admit, that having seen "remembrance" done in Ireland, England, France and now where i live Bcn, the red poppy is obviously understood as a "british imperialist" symbol. I recall the rather pompous distributor of red poppies in Dublin in the novembers of my youth made no hiding of the fact that it was for him a sign of "allegiance" to an "old country". A fascinating insight into a certain bipolarity of identity in the "anglo-irish" sub -culture. It was indeed a way to say "west-brit and proud". Such statements seem truly ridiculous in the Ireland of the XXI century. Yet come Hallowe'en they appear on a certain class or type of individual in the "real world" though never as ubiqitous as their presence on British TV suggests (where everyone has one). [I'd like to know is that an official policy]. But further afield, on the continent only very anglocentric "ex-pats" fish the poppy out of their wardrobe to put it on the lapel, and when worn in Paris or Barcelona it says as much about their perception of "british victory" as their true remembrance of suffering. Often its just a way of saying "this wearer is british english anglo saxon and has at least one relative whose name is wendy" I must admit its a bit like seeing a sash, in London I used rush to get a white poppy on my lapel first just to defy those types where I worked. "and was jerusalem builded here amongst these dark satanic mills?" la - la - la. Wheel out the oik kevin Myers.

by Facts Wed Nov 02, 2005 15:31

I think that the dead of WW1 should be remembered. Members of my own family fought in that war and were killed and injured. The WW1 soldiers were young working class people killed in a disgusting capitalist imperialist war. WW1 should not be forgotten, and it should be remembered that the rotten Trade Union and labour leaders in 1914 supported the 'national interests' around Europe. It should also be remembered that the working class of Russia, Germany and Hungary rose up (with varying degrees of success) against their capitalist masters to end the war. In Ireland there was mass opposition to war and conscription.

I draw the line at the "peace poppy". The poppy is not a benign symbol for the dead.Funds from the sale of the poppy goes to the British legion which is a pro-imperialist organisation.

by aargh! Wed Nov 02, 2005 15:35

1 - red poppy = british legion = BAD
2 - peace poppy = Peace = white = GOOD
3 - opium poppy = war on afghanistan = NOW.

This year make a statement :-
Wear your opium poppy with pride.

by pat c Wed Nov 02, 2005 15:42

"Funds from the sale of the poppy goes to the British legion which is a pro-imperialist organisation."

Funds from the sale of the Red Poppy go to the British Legion, which is, as you say, a pro-imperialist organisation. The funds could end going to the paras who took part in Bloody Sunday

However funds from the sale of the White Peace Poppy do not go to the British Legion. Please visit the link .

Funds from the Peace Poppy go to continue the wprk of the PPU and its projects. eg-

"The reason why

The Peace Research and Education Trust (PRET) supports research on, and provides advice and information about, the causes and effects of war and violence and ways of peacefully resolving conflict situations. To build peace, it is necessary to understand the condistions required for its growth, together with ways in which humane, co-operative values and peaceful resolution have been and can be used in the conflicts that surround us.


International Decade for a culture of peace and nonviolence for the children of the world (2001 - 2010)
This decade has been declared by the United Nations General Assembly, at the initiative of some of the Nobel Peace Prize laureates. Member States have been invited to 'take the necessary steps to ensure that the practice of peace and non-violence is taught at all levels in their respective societies, including in educational institutions.'
PRET is already carrying out the aims of this decade.

What does PRET do?

The Trust supports projects for teachers, parents and students, which present fresh and challenging material about peace, war and conflict resolution, material that is well-researched and designed, and easy to understand and use.

The Trust provides access to the necessary balance of material on issues related to peace and war where required by the National Curriculum; and examines and publicises ways in which teachers and students are themselves dealing with issues of war, violence and peace. Material for the new citizenship section of the curriculum in also in preparation.



What has PRET supported?

Remembrance
Remembering War - a teaching pack designed to raise issues about war, peace and remembrance, including teachers' notes and suggestions for projects, discussions and activities. [more]

Co-operation
Working Together - a handbook for co-operation, providing an introduction to co-operative skills, of particular interest to parents and teachers and to anyone working with young people. [more]

Children and Peace
Saying No to Violence: children and peace - a publication which casts a critical look at the way we teach children to accept violence as natural and inevitable, suggesting alternative strategies to bring up children to act, and think, nonviolently; and including suggestions for parents and teachers including curriculum-based lesson plans. [more]

What is PRET currently supporting?

A CD-Rom on Remembering War - Searching for Peace
The UN General Assembly resolution on the Decade for the Culture of Peace stresses 'the importance... of the new information and communication technology in further promoting a culture of peace and non-violence, especially among children and young people.'

In this context, PRET is supporting the Voices for Peace project of the Peace Pledge Union, which involves the development of screen-based educational resources via a website and CD-Rom. The aim of this project is to make issues of war and peace accessible in a multi-media and cross-curricular format, from a fresh perspective for the 21st century. It will use the voices of conscientious objectors and others who have worked for peace over the last century, set in a context of voices for peace over three millennia.

To give the whole a contemporary flavour and easier access to young people, video interviews with teenagers, exploring what they know about remembrance, and discussing their attitudes to peace and war, will be included."

by :-) Wed Nov 02, 2005 15:48

will go to establish a NWO in afghanistan and stabilise the price of smack globally to c-o-n-t-r-o-l us.

by Ken Thu Nov 03, 2005 00:44

We should remember all the Irish who have died fighting for foreign nations.
The "Wilde Geese" wiped out at Bleinheim fighting for Louis the XIV, and those who fought them. The Irish regiments who tore each other apart at Fredricksberg and Gettysberg in a so called American civil war, which was just as much an Irish slaughter.

From the Irish who helped build the British Empire to those who fought against the US in the Mexican war and the 20,000 Irish at Trafalgar, we have been there.
Although it was done in the name of other nations, the Irish can truely say, Veni,Vidi,Vici.
I came, I saw, I conquered.
Pity, that in the land that produced men like Athur Welsley (Duke of Wellington), we can't at least honor, those who have made their mark on the world, even if they happen to not fit the mould of the current political ideologies.

by East Galway Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:01

I'd never heard of the White Poppy before reading about it on this thread. I have always found the Red British Legion Poppy to be a jingoistic and imperialistic symbol.

The Irish dead of the First World War deserve to be remembered but not by red poppies or by any organisation that claims they died for "king and country" or the "freedom of small nations".

I fully endorse the stance of the Peace Union and would proudly wear a White Peace Poppy if I had one.

It is often forgotton the social-economic effect of WWI in many Irish towns. In most cases, it was the poorest men of Irish towns who joined up and were butchered in battles in Europe and beyond. They never came back and left many widows and children behind.

In one town - Ballinasloe, Co Galway - about one hundred men died in WWI (for a list see: http://www.ballinasloe.org/articles/article.php?ID=54). They are for all intents and purposes forgotton, even though their loss must have been devastating for a town of its size. And I'm sure it was the same for many more towns across the country.

by opium poppy for peace - "next year's campaign" Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:08

unfortuanately its a bit ugly and oversized.

& because its so little known, if you wear one you have to explain what it is constantly. Whereas the red poppy is mass produced conjoining semicircles of red cardboard with a plastic "eye" and stalk, (there are some other versions with an extra green leaf available), the white poppy is made of fabric not card and looks to be honest a bit more "wilting".

I propose to make next year's opium poppies of remembrance from purple card in a similar fashion to the red poppys using press moulding. and present an optional "silver foil wrap" lapel pin option for those who make larger contributions to the fund.

by Dublin Exile Thu Nov 03, 2005 13:59

As usual there is a load of codswallop written here about the poppy. Over 50,000 men from Ireland died in World War 1 and it is an insult to both them and their families to suggest that they were duped by anyone. It seems to be convenient to forget that in August 1914 John Redmond was the leader of Nationalist Ireland, and the Home Rule bill which he had committed his political career to achieving was about to be passed the following month. He encouraged the Irish Volunteers to join the war in order to ensure that the Home Rule bill would indeed be introduced and that the Nationalists would not be outmanouvered by Carson who he believed (correctly) was about to offer the services of the Ulster Volunteers for the war in Europe.
In the end Irishmen of both traditions joined the army in huge numbers. Every last one of them was a volunteer.
In recent years I visited both the Somme and Messine Ridge and walked among the headstones where the young men of both traditions lie together and I was struck by the wastefulness of war and the lost potential of this generation which was wiped out forever.
The poppy grows wild, as a weed, in the fields of France and Flanders and the story goes that the young soldiers there picked them to brighten up their uniforms, or where they had them, their dugouts.
The poppy is now worn a sign of rememberance for the dead. In Ireland however we have imbued this simple symbol with all sorts of sectarian and political baggage, both sides of our ancient divide have been responsible for this. What was supposed to be a symbol of remembrance was made a symbol of division.
So I would ask you this month to step out of your traditional comfort zone and consider again what the poppy is all about.
I'll be wearing one this year. I'm no imperialist, no fascist, and no Unionist. I am an Irishman remembering my fellow Irishmen who were butchered and wasted in Flanders, on the Somme, in Gallipolli and in all of those places that never made headlines. They were no dupes, they were men of their time, brave men, and I will Remember them.

Perhaps you could check out the following sites: www.schoolforpeace.com looking at how the experience of the Irish soldiers in WW1 is now being used as a tool for peace and reconcilliation or www.greatwar.ie for an account of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers in WW1

by Working class leftie Thu Nov 03, 2005 14:10

To whom does the money go for the poppy you buy?
Does is it in anyway support the British 'war' effort in Afghanistan and/or Iraq. Does any of it go to the para's. If the you answer to the question yes to any of then you're madder than I thought. But hold on you are in the Labour Party, why would I be surprised. You don't read Connolly, 'reading is for middle class intellectual let's pretend lefties' - isn't that right.
Why don't you wear a lily next year going on your logic for wearing a poppy.

by tom eile Thu Nov 03, 2005 14:12

what about the one the provos are now advocating - a poppy with a shamrock inside? I'm not making this up : they want to reclaim the "nationalist " first world war dead for Ireland.
One of their Donegal (?)councillors went to visit the WW1 graves in Flanders during the summer alongside Paddy Harte and a unionist delegation .He came home very moved by his experience .
Expect to see the Green Blazer brigade strutting around with them next year at Bodenstown .

by Dublin Exile Thu Nov 03, 2005 14:12

Ken, there is now a National Day of Commemoration to remember all of the Irishmen who died in foreign wars. The National event is held at the Royal Hospital Kilmainham every year, the second sunday of July this year. There are other events held throughout the country. Those of us who attend these events remember the Irish who fought in the French, Spanish, British, American, Canadian, Australian and every other army in the world. Also we remember the men of Oglaigh na hEireann, the Irish Defence Forces who have died on peace missions for the United Nations in foreign countries.
The event in Kilmainham is open to the public but as far as I know you have to apply for tickets in advance.

by Dublin Exile Thu Nov 03, 2005 14:20

As far as I know the few bob that i contribute for a poppy goes to the Royal British Legion. This organisation looks after old soldiers, mostly those who have fallen on hard times, and the dependants of soldiers who have died while on duty. How very unsocialist of them. Soldiers tend to be almost 100% working class for your information. If their employer (the British Army) doesn't look after them once they've left, or doesnt look after their dependants if they die, isn't it a good thing that an organisation does exist to help them out. You'll find most members of the TUC across the water wearing their Poppy on Rememberance Day.

by moylan Thu Nov 03, 2005 14:21

More nonsense. Redmond knew very well that there was no chance that Home Rule would be introduced after the Government tacitly approved of the UVF's threat of war against the Crown and alliance with the Kaiser. Yet he continued to call for volunteers to sacrifice themselves in England's war of aggression against Germany. You think that by isolating the actual events from their political context and trying to rehabilitate Redmond's reputation by simply misrepresenting his actions, you will pull the wool over people's eyes about your motives in wearing the poppy.

I repeat, for those who didn't quite get it: Remembrance Day, and the poppy, commemorate all of Britain's military actions since the 1914-18 war, including the Black and Tan War, the six invasions of Iraq, the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, Bloody Sunday and various assassinations of Irish citizens by British agents on Irish soil. If you want to wear the poppy, be clear on what you are doing it for.

You refer to the " wastefulness " of war, as though the war you were speaking of were some kind of natural event. It was not a natural event, it was a manifestation of imperial policy. You advocate that everyone must turn his or her mind off and celebrate it, ignoring what it was. And at the same time you have the gall to castigate those Irish people who are actually interested in non-mindless understanding of historical events!

I don't think it's a good idea to lie about the past from some misguided idea that this will help us all somehow get along better. You can see every day the consequences of this willed mindlessness in Iraq, in Eastern Europe and in Ireland itself. It's easier to blame those whose lives are affected by these policies, rather than those who make them. Why not simply wear no poppy, no symbol of any kind, and acknowledge instead the sacrifices, and the reasoning behind those sacrifices, on both sides of that war? Because you take British policy in the world as a moral norm.

by Dublin Exile Thu Nov 03, 2005 14:27

Yes tom eile, i know about this poppy with a shamrock in the middle of it. Its a pet project of Paddy Harte for years. I don't agree with it because instead of challenging the notion that the poppy is a purely british/unionist symbol it actually buys into the notion. Paddys idea seems to be that prods can wear poppies but the fenians will wear one with a shamrock just to show they're not prods. Its a stupid sectarian notion and i hope it will be ignored by most people.

Paddy Harte recently wrote his autobiography, in the final chapter he writes about the Island of Ireland Peace Tower in Messine and manages not to mention Glen Barr once and yet he's happy to have a photo of himself and Franco smiling together in the middle of it. Enough said.

P.S. The Sinn Fein Councillor in question was Paddy McLaughlin, Mayor of Buncrana, an excellent local councillor who will make an excellent TD at the next election.

by Dublin Exile Thu Nov 03, 2005 14:34

'englands war of aggression against germany' mr moylan????
Give us a break.
You know as well as I do that it was Germany who invaded Belgium and then France because they had to get the war in the west out of the way first before they took on the Russians - it was called the Von Schliffen Plan. Go back to yer comic books!

by Read the original post Thu Nov 03, 2005 15:25

Before anymore publishes another comment, could they read the original post and click on the links it provides.

The issue here is between

THE RED POPPY of the BRITISH LEGION

and

THE WHITE POPPY adovated by a pacifist organisation called the PEACE UNION

by Dermot Lacey Thu Nov 03, 2005 15:33

Good to see Dublin Exile back again. By the way I will up your end of the country tomorrow evening.

As Lord Mayor I remember one particular weekend when I attended an event to highlight the problems faced by Catholics living in the Sandy Row at the invitation of Sinn Fein which I was pleased to attend. I later hosted a reception for members of the Royal Dublin Fusileers Association. The dignity of those old men and their families in what had been the first official recognition of their endeavours since 1919 was something I will always remember.

I will remember too the emotion of laying wreaths at several Tombs of the Unknown Soldiers at Battles sites in the Somme along with the SF Lord Mayor of Belfast. In his case it was the first time that a SF Lord Mayor had done so and in my case the first time that a Dublin LM had done so. Is it not long past time that we honoured those ordinary working class men and women who lost their lives in pursuit of either what they thought was right or in the honourable attempt to earn an income to provide for their families. Buying a poppy is simply a way to give financial support to those who need it.

by Repulsed Thu Nov 03, 2005 17:23

Buy a Red Poppy

by Barry Thu Nov 03, 2005 17:52

Irishmen dying in British uniforms upholding British interests . A more fitting memorial to their pointless deaths would be to ensure this NEVER happens again . Unfortunately Irish citizens still serve in British regiments in Iraq and Ireland itself . Britains attempting to recruit even more into its armed colonial PSNI . Maybe more Irishmen being carried in coffins through the streets of Dublin after getting their comeuppance in Iraq could be seen as part of this noble poppy tradition . Or maybe its just a disgrace to be encouraging Irish support for the British army given their record in this country and many others .

Theres nothing honourable or noble about invading another country and killing its people , in either Iraq , Gallipoli or Ireland . These poopy shitheads would love to see us all at it . No doubt it would be a gesture to the peace process .

by Gearoid Thu Nov 03, 2005 19:47

I have never worn a poppy nor will I . There is no point in remembering the dead of an imperialist war unless they are being remembered as those who went to the slaughter on behalf of imperialism. The idea mentioned above that is was all germany's fault is ahistorical. The war was a long time in the making and was the result of inter imperialist rivalry.

Lenin understood the war. he said that whilst we are opposed to the slaughter our oppostion is based on in whose interests the war is being fought. The war was a war of imperialist slaughter. It doesn't need to be remembered it needs to be condemned as a crime against the working class people who fought and died in the name imperialism.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Nov 03, 2005 20:36

You don't get it do you? This is not about honouring the war it is about honouring people, real human beings who lost their lives. Of course the far left and the mad left have always been far more interested in therory and philosophising than real people. I would buy a poppy to help people who need help I probably would not wear it because of the actions of some people who do. Just like the actions of some of the thugs who wear Easter Lillies who have debased Republicanism

by Gearoid Thu Nov 03, 2005 23:22

Sorry Dermot, But I do get it. It is not about remembering people, it is an event which coincides in date and form (poppy) with the imperialist celebration. What look in do the victims of these men get? And let us remember that the dead commerated by the Poppy WWI and WW2 also have their victims who are to be counted in the millions. Let us remember the brave ones as the song says who flew the skies and firebombed Dresden. Let us remember the mutineers (and WWI was full of them) who were shot dead for opting out of the war. They were shot dead by their comrades in arms some of whom are now remembered by the Poppy as they themselves were killed later in the war.

It is not about whether people died but why and for what. The fact that they died in tens of thousands per battle is not the issue but why. In Latin America the death squads also get killed but why would we remember them. The only thing that deserves rememberance is the fact that the leaders of the working class sent their brothers to kill their fellow workers by the million.

I do get it and I prefer politics to sympathy for the dead who are always used for political ends, in this case to justify the unjustifiable.

by pat c Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:05

The White Poppy has got nothing to with British Imperialism just as the Easter Lily has nothing to do with Catholic Nationalism.

Go to the link and read about the Peace Pledge Union.

by moylan Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:08

Yes, they invaded Belgium, after being given assurances by Britain that this would not be seen as a cause for war, and were attacked by Belgian partisans with the active encouragement of Britain. Britain, of course, had been preparing for war against Germany since 1903. So don't recycle that war propaganda about "poor little Belgium": poor little Belgium happening to be one of the more vicious colonial powers at the time.

by Dublin Exile Fri Nov 04, 2005 13:12

Sorry Gearoid but the only thing you seem to 'get' is your own interpretation of what Remembrance is about. You seem to regard it as a celebration of imperialism and therefore you see those of us who will be involved as remembering imperialism fondly or celebrating it.

This is not the case.

I will be remembering the men of Ireland both nationalist and unionists who were slaughtered by the crowned heads of Europe ( nearly all of them cousins!) in a bloody and wasteful conflict, led largely by aristocratic generals who didn't give tuppence for the lives of their own men. The tragedy of war is compounded by the fact that people have chosen to forget the horrendous human experience that it was and the impact which it had at a human level here at home and in other countries.

Its not so long ago that some people in this country thought it was quite alright to blow people to bits at the cenotaph in Enniskillen on Remembrance Sunday as they remembered their dead, thankfully most republicans have moved on since then and realise that respect for the dead and those who grieve them should be a cornerstone of any democratic and fair society.

If young men from this country continue to die in wars either at home or abroad, the very least their grieving families deserve is to allow them to bury their sons in peace and remember them with dignity, not having to listen to twisted fascists like Barry whose own hatred has blinded him to the humanity of others.

The other group of people who I'll be remembering are the brave Irishmen who joined up the British and American armies in World War Two and defeated Nazism and Genocide in Europe while DeValera kept us shamefully out of the war.

Whose side are you on boys? Whose side are you on?

by paul Sat Oct 28, 2006 09:47

Hello my name is Paul

I would just like to say that In some ways both sides are right about this argument.However the fact remains more Irishmen served in the British Army in World war one than was ever in the IRA.(fact)
Secondly that more Irishmen (from the Repuplic)served in World War 2 than was in the IRA fact)
what dose this tell you .that they were traitors? or merc's? ,or men who had got a girl in trouble?,to borrow the words of Ernie O'malley.or just simple men who belived that they were doing their bit for their Country to gain some sort of Home rule and freedom for them and other smaller countries!
it is also worth mentioning that some so called Irish heros were ex British Army (Tom Barry ring a bell)
For too long idiots such as DEV has rewritten Irish History with Rose tinted glasses ,with a Church that was all powerfull and allowed its girls and boys to be abused in its schools!
These men have been airbrushed out of Irish History as if they never exsisted.We seem to cling to stars like JFK who was about as Irish as many Polish people working in Ireland today.Ie not very!
Do the right thing and Remember the thousands of Irishmen and Women who gave their lives for a just and right cause and remember if they died fighting with the yanks or French or Germans or any other Nation would we have such a problem with it?????

by sucker Sat Oct 28, 2006 15:40

british imperialists got these men killed or maimed by fooling them into defending imperial financial interests. Now they encourage ordinary people to pay for the consequences by having poppy days etc when they the empire should be the ones paying proper levels of reparations to these poor victims of their stupid wars. By paying, we are encouraging the empire to shirk it's responsibilities and not feel that there are financial consequences for their actions.

"Externalising" I believe is the correct term.

I feel sympathy for these victims but Instead of buying poppies, footing the bill and letting the british government off the hook, shouldn't people be pressuring the government in a serious way to provide more money to these poor victims through the exchequer?

If the bill is big enough, they may think a little longer before doing it again.

Letting the government off the hook is just a way of encouraging them to do it again and a grave insult to those who died.

by Conchubhair Fri Apr 06, 2007 13:51

Good to see the ignorance of the Irish population coming up again, do you really think that all Irish men joined up for political reasons ? If you do you are an idiot, social and economic conditions at the time in Ireland were awful, men joined up in a lot of cases to feed their families they could not afford to be patriotic and refuse to join the British army for an ideal that didn´t exsist in before 1916. I have family members who served for both the British Army and IRA including two brothers and I am proud of them equally, don´t get me wrong there were people who joined up to save the empire but it is not black and white people enlisted for many different reasons.

by Barry Sat Apr 07, 2007 16:55

you dont need a poppy or an army remembrance service to remember or honour a dead relative who joined the wrong outfit .

by Tom Dick Harry Sun Sep 30, 2007 07:18

Before reading some of these very passionate responses, I use to think Poppys were quite sweet but the anger and aggression that a simple poppy, no matter whatever it may or may not stand for, what colour it be, can cause a lot of ignorance. Some have learnt to take off that chip! have a more positive attitude and concentrate on our next genreation living in a less criticle and hostile world. Time to move on and allow us to remember loved ones anyway we choose. Don't turn it bitter!

by No Party Politics Sun Oct 14, 2007 13:21

It's not the poppy which is at fault here - it is people.

The poppy doesn't commemorate anything. It is a simple sign that you have taken the trouble to remember the dead, particularly those from all nations who died in the Great War.

It is not a British symbol. The UK wasn't the first, or the last, to think of using it as a symbol of remembrance. Nor is the Haig Fund the only recipient of Poppy subscriptions in the world, different countries having their own funds.

The funds are used to alleviate the suffering of wounded ex-servicemen and women and those who have fallen upon hard times. They supplement what the governments of various nations provide for their ex-service personell.

Nobody forces you to buy one. You don't have to wear one. You can put your money in the box and not take a poppy. Or you can simply walk away and do or say nothing.

The next time you see rows and rows of graves of young Irishmen who were killed during WW1 however, just remember it is the pennies and halfpennies of almost 100 years which has kept their memory alive.

Let the nation remember ALL of it's dead. Not just the ones who suit your political standpoint.

by fear marbh ar siul Sun Oct 14, 2007 15:47

Lets remember why all those millions died in WW1-an insane war between rival imperialisms, fought by the proletariat, organized and directed by a stupid, incompetent ruling class. We Irish owe a great debt of gratitude to Connolly and Pearse. The insurrection they led insured that conscription would not be applied to Ireland and they therefore saved hundred of thousands of lives that would otherwise have been lost in this ruling class madness. So, Kevin Myers wear an Easter Lily in their honour, and while you may, dance to the tune of 'waltzing Matilda'.

by John Brennan Sat Nov 01, 2008 16:52

Could i just point out that not all volunteers were 'duped by Redmond'. There was genuine anti German feeling in Ireland over the German atrocities in Belgium , which were not fabricated..they did happen. In particular the Greman destruction of Louvain caused anger here in Ireland. Louvain contained an Irish Franciscan University and library. It was here in the 17th century modern Ireland was born in the books written by Irish priests who had to leave Ireland The Annals of the 'Four Masters' was written in Louvain.
Tom Kettle, in Belgium when war broke out in August was buying guns to fight the UVF and the British was so horrified by the destruction that he gave the guns to the Belgians and encouraged Irishmen to fight against German Militarism.
To suggest men were duped is to suggest they did not understand why they fought..in fact they did. Whether you regard the poppy with suspicion is hardly relevant, continuing to ignore the Irish dead suggests a type of immature amnesia. Both they and us deserve better.

by john brenan Fri Nov 07, 2008 21:27

As I argued that German atrocities in Belgium convinced many in Ireland that they should join the British army to resist the Germans, I assume Moylan was referring to me. In fact I do not frequent bars and if i did I would certainly not prop them up.I presume that Moylan usually derides those who disagree with his narrow exclusivist nationalist views when he lacks sufficient knowledge to deal with the argument itself.Typical really. German atrocities in both Belgium and France did occur..The Belgians were bad colonial masters , perhaps someone could enlighten me as to any good colonial masters. I doubt that anyone would agree that this fact gave German troops the right to massacre them in their own towns in 1914. Mind you my argument, if understood, was about Irish perceptions of the destruction of Louvain not whether the Belgians were bad or good colonial masters.

Anyway I should probably go back to propping up some bar or other.